"No Irish Need Apply"

Bren1609

...its also written on the gates of hell

This was in the indo today. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-irish-need-apply--polish-builders-get-their-own-back-1589265.html.

Can this be true??? First, how many Irish are in Poland and second, notice how there is no back up or corroboration in the article.

If you took this at face value it would really stir up anti polish sentiment.

brianthebard

There's already a thread on this in AH and no one has provided evidence for it. Pics or it didn't happen tbh.

sink

AH thread was closed. Frankly reading through some of the comments made me angry. We are just as prone to primitive tribalism as we ever were. I doubt this story is even real and was just written to sell newspapers, typical indo tabloid gutter journalism.

K-9

Yep, read through a few pages of AH, mostly ranting really, nothing very reality based other than the usual "bloody Polish" posts. Was surprised at a few posters attitudes, but when combined with their total resistance to the Lisbon Treaty, it makes sense!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Even if they do exist and it wouldn't be a stretch of my imagination that they do, so what?

Jaysus, people will rely on other countries Xenophobia to justify their own Xenophobia! LOL

johnnyskeleton

If Polish builders don't want to employ Irish workers, I would imagine it is because Irish workers are seen as lazy & incompetent or else they go onto the sites and demand a wage several times above the going rate. Either way, it is highly unlikely that it has anything to do with any racism on the part of the Poles and it is even less likely that it is because of the attitude of Irish employers, as why would Polish employers care what Irish employers did to Polish workers here?

Victor

johnnyskeleton, while i have my doubts about the piece, you forget the subcontracting and ganging nature of Irish construction, which create a blur between employer and employee.

K-9

Victor wrote: »

johnnyskeleton, while i have my doubts about the piece, you forget the subcontracting and ganging nature of Irish construction, which create a blur between employer and employee.

Valid point, but I suppose the Developer could be blamed for forcing the Subcontractor to pay low Wages. Thought I'd better put that one in, seeing as free will has been abolished in Ireland in the last few years!:cool:

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote: »

Yep, read through a few pages of AH, mostly ranting really, nothing very reality based other than the usual "bloody Polish" posts. Was surprised at a few posters attitudes, but when combined with their total resistance to the Lisbon Treaty, it makes sense!

Jesus Christ man. I'm opposed to Lisbon. I'm not opposed to polish people. Learn to differentiate.

djpbarry

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If Polish builders don't want to employ Irish workers, I would imagine it is because Irish workers are seen as lazy & incompetent or else they go onto the sites and demand a wage several times above the going rate. Either way, it is highly unlikely that it has anything to do with any racism on the part of the Poles...

Bit of a contradiction there, no? It's not racism, it's just a set of generalisations about a particular nationality?

For the record, I wouldn't say there's a great deal of truth behind the story.

O'Morris

I don't know if there's any truth to that story, but if there is, then I think it's worthy of condemnation and it's understandable that many Irish people are pissed off about it. Discrimination against people who are entitled to work in your country is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. It's wrong if Irish people do it against foreigners entitled to work here and it's wrong if foreigners do it against Irish people entitled to work in foreign countries.

The fact that some people on this thread have attempted to explain it away is a bit hypocritical considering how differently those same people would react if it was the other way around. Could you imagine if it was "No Poles Need Apply" signs appearing on Irish building sites.

Sink wrote:

AH thread was closed. Frankly reading through some of the comments made me angry. We are just as prone to primitive tribalism as we ever were.

Hold on a minute there now. Irish people react angrily to news that Irish workers are being singled out for discrimination on Polish building sites and by doing so we are the people who are guilty of primitive tribalism? Interesting.

Seanies32 wrote:

Even if they do exist and it wouldn't be a stretch of my imagination that they do, so what?

So discrimination is bad when we engage in it but when other people direct it against us it's no big deal?

turgon

Its the independent, so I wouldnt be worried about it.

This is the same paper that on the day of the end of the 2006 Lebanon Conflict, said "the real war begins today". Its trash.

K-9

murphaph wrote: »

Jesus Christ man. I'm opposed to Lisbon. I'm not opposed to polish people. Learn to differentiate.

Actually, re read my post. Think it's yourself who needs to learn to differentiate between a few posters and ALL No posters!

O'Morris wrote:

So discrimination is bad when we engage in it but when other people direct it against us it's no big deal?

Nah, re read my posts, do point out where I said that, I'm a bit confused!

O'Morris

Seanies32 wrote:

Nah, re read my posts, do point out where I said that, I'm a bit confused

I took your use of the expression "so what" to indicate that you don't think "No Irish Need Apply" signs are all that big of a deal. I'm assuming you wouldn't react the same way to news of "No Poles Need Apply" signs appearing on Irish building sites and so I think there might be a bit of a double standard involved in this. Or maybe I'm wrong and you wouldn't have a problem with anti-Polish signs appearing on Irish building sites?

K-9

O'Morris wrote: »

I took your use of the expression "so what" to indicate that you don't think "No Irish Need Apply" signs are all that big of a deal. I'm assuming you wouldn't react the same way to news of "No Poles Need Apply" signs appearing on Irish building sites and so I think there might be a bit of a double standard involved in this. Or maybe I'm wrong and you wouldn't have a problem with anti-Polish signs appearing on Irish building sites?

I'd have a problem with both. We can do something about it here, not Poland though. Our xenophobia is usually more subtle though than signs saying "No Polish".

sink

O'Morris wrote: »

Hold on a minute there now. Irish people react angrily to news that Irish workers are being singled out for discrimination on Polish building sites and by doing so we are the people who are guilty of primitive tribalism? Interesting.

If the story is true I condemn the actions of those site managers, I just don't think there is a grain of truth behind it. It is breaking several EU directives and the site managers should be given massive fines and the company directors could loose their right to direct. Why would they put up a sign? If they really didn't want to hire Irish workers they would just have to give an excuse like their Polish isn't good enough and they wouldn't be taking as big a risk. Anyway Irish workers are not very likely to be looking for work in Poland as their wages are 1/4 of what they are here.

I think the entire story was manufactured either by Mr Kilcoyne or the person he heard it from and Brian McDonald jumped on it as a piece that would fire up the indo's readership. He never even attempted to do any fact checking as a proper journalist should, he just printed hearsay as any good tabloid would. And as donegalfella pointed out Mr Kilcoyne jumped to the unsubstantiated conclusion that all this was the result of unscrupulous Irish employers. While I have no doubt there are a minority of unscrupulous employers he provides no justification for his assertion that they are the cause of anti-irish sentiment in Poland. If it exists it could just as easily been caused by any Irish man on the street who didn't like Poles.

adagio

Unfortunately the social veneer that has been hiding tribalism and xenophobia is starting to crack and reveal a not too pretty picture. I spent C-mas w/family in the Border counties and the level of hate fueled xenophobia and ignorance was astonishing. I genuinely could not believe what I was hearing. As always when people perceive themselves as being under threat they show their full character.
I found myself in a difficult situation but felt compelled to say something - I tried to be thoughtful and concise in my argument but their views are ingrained.
I think that a lager proportion of Irish people (generalization) have a woolly view of how socially progressive and open minded we are.
Remember the the 'Irish abroad' were responsible for some of the worst racially motivated atrocities in America/Australia/South America.
One answer might be to start teaching our children basic logic at an early age, this maybe an anecdote to alot of our social ills?:eek:

luckyfrank

Hmm i would have found it funny if i saw one of those signs in a site i delivered to

Seems to me we irish need to lightin up just shows if true the poles do have a sense of humour

jmcc

adagio wrote: »

Unfortunately the social veneer that has been hiding tribalism and xenophobia is starting to crack and reveal a not too pretty picture. I spent C-mas w/family in the Border counties and the level of hate fueled xenophobia and ignorance was astonishing. I genuinely could not believe what I was hearing.

Perhaps they see things differently having seen people lose their jobs, seeing 100% mortgages on cardboard box properties, bogus asylum seekers freeloading off the state, a government so incompetent that it only looks after its friends, bankers who should have been shot for treason being bailed out with your future, a health service being run into the ground by an incompetent with no mandate, no support and no clue.

I found myself in a difficult situation but felt compelled to say something - I tried to be thoughtful and concise in my argument but their views are ingrained.

Did it occur to you, with your roight-on views, that you might be the one that is wrong?

Remember the the 'Irish abroad' were responsible for some of the worst racially motivated atrocities in America/Australia/South America.

Bullsh!t. They were different times and different people. We do not bear the responsibility for the past.

Rather than providing them with the benefit of your argument, you should have tried to find out why they thought in such a way and what were the causes. It is only when you know the cause of the problem that you can take steps towards solving it. Otherwise it is all just consequence-free hot air worthy of a college debating society.

Regards...jmcc

djpbarry

jmcc wrote: »

Perhaps they see things differently having seen people lose their jobs, seeing 100% mortgages on cardboard box properties, bogus asylum seekers freeloading off the state, a government so incompetent that it only looks after its friends, bankers who should have been shot for treason being bailed out with your future, a health service being run into the ground by an incompetent with no mandate, no support and no clue.

All caused by immigration, of course :rolleyes:.

jmcc

djpbarry wrote: »

All caused by immigration, of course.

Despite what you claim, the situation is somewhat more complex.

Regards...jmcc

sink

djpbarry wrote: »

All caused by immigration, of course :rolleyes:.

Don't you know the international Polery have secretly been taking control of the banking sector in a secret plot to control the world. The government should retaliate with a night of broken glass smashing immigrant owned business and terrorising their communities, swiftly followed up by mass arrests dragging them off to forced labour camps where they will be forced to pay for all the damage they have done to our economy.

jmcc

sink wrote: »

Don't you know the international Polery have secretly been taking control of the banking sector in a secret plot to control the world.

So Poland has poleaxed the banking system? Good job it wasn't Bolivia then.

Regards...jmcc

adagio

Perhaps they see things differently having seen people lose their jobs, seeing 100% mortgages on cardboard box properties, bogus asylum seekers freeloading off the state, a government so incompetent that it only looks after its friends, bankers who should have been shot for treason being bailed out with your future, a health service being run into the ground by an incompetent with no mandate, no support and no clue.

Firstly, well done on the rant! The view I have put forward is not informed through isolation from any of the above.

Did it occur to you, with your Right-on views, that you might be the one that is wrong?

I did not proclaim that I have the 'right view.' Only that the argument I put forward was met with a litany of ignorant responses.

Bullsh!t. They were different times and different people. We do not bear the responsibility for the past.

Rather than providing them with the benefit of your argument, you should have tried to find out why they thought in such a way and what were the causes. It is only when you know the cause of the problem that you can take steps towards solving it. Otherwise it is all just consequence-free hot air worthy of a college debating society.

Getting into a discussion on responsibilities is a neat sidestep. If you read the last line of my thread you would see that I come back to education as an answer to ignorance and the perceived impotency they feel. Be under no illusion, the majority of our actions are related to individual Perceptions of the Power we possess in a kaleidoscope of situations.
Btw, knock that chip off your shoulder - 'Consequence-free hot air worthy of a college debating society'....... What? Consequence-free debating? And what has the venue to do with the results?
The more extreme elements of the French Revolution would have loved you.
Regards.:eek:

shqipshume

Ok here,Irish teen in school has argument with African teen.African Teen calls Irish teen white thrash,Irish teen calls back ******( sorry for the word) Irish teen gets expelled.True story
I know it has nothing to do with this thread
But the point is bend over Ireland

jmcc

adagio wrote: »

Firstly, well done on the rant!

Thanks. I wasn't even trying.

I did not proclaim that I have the 'right view.' Only that the argument I put forward was met with a litany of ignorant responses.

Why? Did you bother to find out the reasons?

If you read the last line of my thread you would see that I come back to education as an answer to ignorance and the perceived impotency they feel.

Educating future generations is not going to solve immediate problems.

Be under no illusion, the majority of our actions are related to individual Perceptions of the Power we possess in a kaleidoscope of situations.

People tend to do what they need to do in order to survive. The problem is that most people now feel powerless in the face of recession. The danger is that they turn on those least able to defend themselves instead of the architects of the problem.

Btw, knock that chip off your shoulder

Why? I'm perfectly balanced as it is with a chip on each shoulder.

'Consequence-free hot air worthy of a college debating society'....... What?

I thought it was rather good.

Consequence-free debating? And what has the venue to do with the results?

It is the sheer futility of such debates in that they are only relevant to those taking part and they are routinely ignored in the real world.

The more extreme elements of the French Revolution would have loved you.

I think that they would have made plans for a moderate such as myself. Liberty, equality and fraternity is a nice idea in theory. But the excess of the French Revolution was an example of what happens when self-interested groups put their own interests ahead of those of the people. Such things always end badly and those who suffer are typically those at the bottom of the pyramid - care to name any modern parallel?

Regards...jmcc

adagio

Is that Guillotine ready jmcc?
Two things.

1. Don't become disillusioned by debate that 99/100 comes to nothing. Think of how privileged we are that we live in a society that engenders this type of debating. And for those of us who genuinely want to improve 'our lot', searching for questions and answers sharpens our critical faculties, therefore for me it is worth while.
2. You talk of cause and effect. The only way to change the current situation is to treat the causes; a knee jerk response and an immediate solution will solve nothing.
3. Finally, I share your underlying frustration w/the current situation; please see my 5 questions thread. Not all of us want to sit on our hands.

Cheers for the debate and Off with their heads!!!:eek::D

jmcc

adagio wrote: »

Is that Guillotine ready jmcc?
Two things.

1. Don't become disillusioned by debate that 99/100 comes to nothing. Think of how privileged we are that we live in a society that engenders this type of debating. And for those of us who genuinely want to improve 'our lot', searching for questions and answers sharpens our critical faculties, therefore for me it is worth while.
2. You talk of cause and effect. The only way to change the current situation is to treat the causes; a knee jerk response and an immediate solution will solve nothing.
3. Finally, I share your underlying frustration w/the current situation; please see my 5 questions thread. Not all of us want to sit on our hands.

Cheers for the debate and Off with their heads!!!:eek::D

Perhaps the education system has failed too. That's three things.

I'd prefer a society that actually solves problems rather than one that wastes time debating them in place of doing anything.

Regards...jmcc

sink

jmcc wrote: »

Perhaps the education system has failed too. That's three things.

I'd prefer a society that actually solves problems rather than wasting time debating them.

Regards...jmcc

Ah yes we should take immediate action to save us from the painful job of thinking!

jmcc

sink wrote: »

Ah yes we should take immediate action to save us from the painful job of thinking!

Obviously it is so painful for some that they've given up the practice completely.

Regards...jmcc

djpbarry

shqipshume wrote: »

Ok here,Irish teen in school has argument with African teen.African Teen calls Irish teen white thrash,Irish teen calls back ******( sorry for the word) Irish teen gets expelled.True story
I know it has nothing to do with this thread

Indeed it does not.

jmcc wrote: »

The danger is that they turn on those least able to defend themselves instead of the architects of the problem.

People are often the architects of their own problems.

Dr_Phil

Yesterday those signs have been apparently seen on Polish companies in Poland. Today Onet.pl says that there have been apparently seen in Ireland, but on Polish-owned companies. Someone must be really sick giving such bollocks to public. Even sicker is the one who believes in that. It's pathetic.

Anyway, going the above way, it was recently brought to my attention, that the Irish weren't really neutral and apparently they have secretly started and planned World War II. Therefore they are responsible for mass murders in apparently Irish concentration camps - obviously using Germans for their plan to succeed.

I am going to write an article about it in some Polish and Jewish newspapers, mostly. I wonder how many morons would take it seriously

Jarren

sink wrote: »

AH thread was closed. Frankly reading through some of the comments made me angry. We are just as prone to primitive tribalism as we ever were. I doubt this story is even real and was just written to sell newspapers, typical indo tabloid gutter journalism.

+1:) fully agree..

Dudess

AH thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055452002

Some of the stupidity is astounding even for After Hours.

AMIIAM

" No Irish need apply" on Polish building sites. The Irish Times reported this news item yesterday 2nd Jan. Indo seems to be behind as per usual. If the news item is factually correct, I am not in the least surprised, as Polish workers were shamefully exploited during the CELTIC TIGER years; ( WHAT CELTIC TIGER?) by Irish employers and Sub Contractors . Payback time always comes around.Ask your local BANK Manager where it all went so terribly wrong?

Bren1609

AMIIAM wrote: »

" No Irish need apply" on Polish building sites. The Irish Times reported this news item yesterday 2nd Jan. Indo seems to be behind as per usual. If the news item is factually correct, I am not in the least surprised, as Polish workers were shamefully exploited during the CELTIC TIGER years; ( WHAT CELTIC TIGER?) by Irish employers and Sub Contractors . Payback time always comes around.Ask your local BANK Manager where it all went so terribly wrong?

Exploited How!?!

Dr_Phil

Bren1609 wrote: »

Exploited How!?!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-irish-need-apply--polish-builders-get-their-own-back-1589265.html

Mr Kilcoyne said: "The reality is that our international reputation as employers has been sullied. Many foreign people who have worked here, especially during our boom years, have had bad experiences.
"The evidence of this is in the number of cases taken before the Labour Relations Commission over the last year or two in respect of unpaid wages or holiday money that was not paid.
"Ireland's name as a good place to work has been badly damaged by such contractors who held onto the money of their workers."


Anyway, I am still certain that all this story with the "No Irish" signs was made up and i total bulls....t.

AMIIAM

Bren, If i really have to explain it to you, you are obviously ignorant of the facts!?

sink

AMIIAM wrote: »

Bren, If i really have to explain it to you, you are obviously ignorant of the facts!?

I'm just not sure why I should be asking my bank manager about some unscrupulous Irish employers in the construction sector.

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

AH thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055452002

Some of the stupidity is astounding even for After Hours.

Wasted 20 minutes on that! But Yep, was genuinely surprised by the attitudes of a couple of posters on it, who I did respect, though vehemently disagree with!

johnnyskeleton

Victor wrote: »

johnnyskeleton, while i have my doubts about the piece, you forget the subcontracting and ganging nature of Irish construction, which create a blur between employer and employee.

I don't think so. My point is that Polish people who came here to work are not necessarily going back home and starting up construction firms of their own. Equally, the Polish people who run the sites in Poland have not necessarily spent any time working in Ireland. While I'm speculating to some extent, I would say that the Polish site bosses don't really care about how Polish workers were treated in Ireland because it didn't happen to them.

johnnyskeleton

djpbarry wrote: »

Bit of a contradiction there, no? It's not racism, it's just a set of generalisations about a particular nationality?

For the record, I wouldn't say there's a great deal of truth behind the story.

Well, it's not racist on the part of all Polish people, it's generalisations made by Polish employers from experience. I'd say it's prejudice rather than racism.

AMIIAM

Sink, Could you just re-read my post? It is self explanatory to most.

sink

AMIIAM wrote: »

Sink, Could you just re-read my post? It is self explanatory to most.

I'm sorry I don't know what you are trying to get at. Are you saying the bank managers were responsible for the immigrants exploitation, if so what is your justification? Or are you getting the banking crisis, the recession and labour disputes all muddled up in that head of yours.

AMIIAM

Sink, Are you admitting on this forum that you do not realise that the BANKS made money freely available to ANY fly by night developer/ Builder to get rich quick overnight:?? NO HOLDS BARRED?? Again I refer to the mythological "CELTIC TIGER"!!

sink

AMIIAM wrote: »

Sink, Are you admitting on this forum that you do not realise that the BANKS made money freely available to ANY fly by night developer/ Builder to get rich quick overnight:?? NO HOLDS BARRED?? Again I refer to the mythological "CELTIC TIGER"!!

Yes I am perfectly aware that banks had very liberal lending policies contributing to the housing bubble but I was not aware that banks had any role/responsibility or indeed any recourse to investigate the labour practices of the developers they lent money to. You are confusing the two issues.

The celtic tiger was not mythological it was a very real boom in the manufacturing and r&d sectors leading to increased employment and increased exports. It ended circa 2001 when our overpriced labour force, lack of investment in infrastructure and increased bureaucracy led to a decrease in competitiveness. The celtic tiger is only connected to the housing bubble which began circa 1999 in that it substantially increased the disposable income of the average Irish citizen allowing them to play with the property market.

AMIIAM

Sink, Can I just finish off with your remark the "CELTIC TIGER" was real, I presume that you believe "SANTA CLAUS" is also a fact?

Dob74

AMIIAM wrote: »

Sink, Can I just finish off with your remark the "CELTIC TIGER" was real, I presume that you believe "SANTA CLAUS" is also a fact?

The CELTIC TIGER was real. It only cost 0% down and repayments over 35 years. What a bargin! Now alls we have to do is pay for it.

AMIIAM

Ah Dob, What is going to be the REAL cost to the Irish taxpayer for the fabled "CELTIC TIGER"??

sink

AMIIAM wrote: »

Sink, Can I just finish off with your remark the "CELTIC TIGER" was real, I presume that you believe "SANTA CLAUS" is also a fact?

You don't know what you are talking about. The is Celtic tiger is a recognised period of economic history by virtually all economists. Here are a few books written on the subject.

* The Celtic Tiger: Ireland's Continuing Economic Miracle by Paul Sweeney ISBN 1-86076-148-8
* After the Celtic Tiger: Challenges Ahead by Peter Clinch, Frank Convery and Brendan Walsh ISBN 0-86278-767-X
* The Celtic Tiger? : The Myth of Social Partnership by Kieran Allen ISBN 0-7190-5848-1
* The Making of the Celtic Tiger: The Inside Story of Ireland's Boom Economy by Ray Mac Sharry, Joseph O'Malley and Kieran Kennedy ISBN 1-85635-336-2
* The End of Irish History? : Critical Approaches to the Celtic Tiger by Colin Coulter, Steve Coleman ISBN 0-7190-6231-4
* The Celtic Tiger In Distress: Growth with Inequality in Ireland by Peadar Kirby, Peadar Kir ISBN 0-333-96435-7
* Can the Celtic Tiger Cross the Irish Border? (Cross Currents) by John Bradley, Esmond Birnie ISBN 1-85918-312-3
* Inside the Celtic Tiger: The Irish Economy and the Asian Model (Contemporary Irish Studies) by Denis O'Hearn ISBN 0-7453-1283-7
* OECD, (2002). OECD Information Technology Outlook. O.E.C.D., Paris.
* OECD (2004). OECD Information Technology Outlook. O.E.C.D., Paris.