Sooo mad four pheasants killed!

artieanna

To my delight, nearly every day since October five pheasants came up the back field, under eight large sycamore trees and dug up slugs and worms from under the dead leaves. I really enjoyed looking at these beautiful creatures.

However a person not far from my home has been out shooting odd days over the past two weeks and now I only see one poor bird on his own.

Without a doubt they have been shot and I am soooooooo angry, its such a pity to see it happen and I could do nothing about it.....

The blasted shooting has my poor dog terrified too!

Carraigrock

Thats sad news.

However, they may have been part of a breed and release type scheme that many gun clubs across the country run in order to repopulate the pheasant numbers....so then they will have birds to shoot during the shooting season.

They hatch the chicks, then release them (I think in Spring)....then start shooting once 1st Nov hits.

I don't agree with bloodsports, however, they do provide some, small, benefits, (along with the obvious negatives like killing of innocent creatures) to the environment as a whole. They promote the growing of cover - the bushes, trees, woodlands etc that birds such as pheasants, woodcock, etc require, thus adding to the number of habitats and ecosystems for all the other creatures.

This fact isn't going to bring back your 4 pheasants, but hopefully the remaining one will make it thru ok to the end of this years shooting season.

marlin vs

I can see where you'r coming from, but if it's gunclub land, you can be sure the pheasant's will be replaced, however if there's no gun club in you'r area that could be a different matter.

artieanna

The thing is these phesants were on our own farmland and naturally they wandered into neighbours farmland. While shooting is not permitted on our land (I see to it that anyone who wanders onto our land with a gun is made aware that no shooting is allowed).

The neighbour in question shoots on his land which borders ours. There is a gun club in the area but there are non club members who shoot too. I am not aware of any breed and release scheme in our immediate area.

AAh its just a shame, such beautiful birds.....:(

John Griffin

Pheasants are not a native species, they were introduced to Ireland for shooting. Without gunclubs releasing pheasants they would quickly die out regardless of shooting. Pheasants are shot and eaten. Think of it this way, they are chickens that were reared for the table but they were allowed to live in freedom and given a fair chance at survival up until they were harvested. They had a much better life than the life a lot of farmed birds get and a they were a hell of a lot better to eat too. If more people ate pheasants instead of chicken we would have far better habitats for wildlife in this country.
Game meat is the healthiest and most environmentally friendly source of meat possible and the most natural and humane way of treating an animal for food.

Amalgam

Without gunclubs releasing pheasants they would quickly die out regardless of shooting.

I find that hard to believe, they do nest across a wide area, both country and urban. I'm not trying to troll you, just curious about that statement.

John Griffin

Amalgam wrote: »

I find that hard to believe, they do nest across a wide area, both country and urban. I'm not trying to troll you, just curious about that statement.

Pheasants are ground nesters, take a look at how similar ground nesters are surviving, for example the Corncrake and Grey Partridge. Between predators, road traffic and especially sillage and modern farming techniques they wouldn't last ten years before disapearing into small isolated populations. They are also poor parents and most hens fail to rear any off spring in a season. A shooting estate releases upto 20,000 birds in the year and local gun clubs can release upto 500 birds and only shoot the cocks. In Wicklow county between 60-80,000 pheasants are released each year. It would be very noticable if this stopped.

Amalgam

I wasn't aware, that's an impressive amount released.

The Hill Billy

John Griffin wrote: »

Pheasants are not a native species, they were introduced to Ireland for shooting. Without gunclubs releasing pheasants they would quickly die out regardless of shooting. Pheasants are shot and eaten. Think of it this way, they are chickens that were reared for the table but they were allowed to live in freedom and given a fair chance at survival up until they were harvested. They had a much better life than the life a lot of farmed birds get and a they were a hell of a lot better to eat too. If more people ate pheasants instead of chicken we would have far better habitats for wildlife in this country.
Game meat is the healthiest and most environmentally friendly source of meat possible and the most natural and humane way of treating an animal for food.

John - I agree entirely.

artieanna - I am sorry that this upsets you, but shooting is a fact of country life. Personally, I enjoy eating pheasant. Pigeon too. It is free & it is healthy.

artieanna

From what I hear alot of the birds shot are not eaten at all but dumped. The shooting is the sport but this does not necessairly mean they are eaten, I'm afraid.

I have no problem with someone shooting a bird if they cook it. I disagree with shooting birds for fun and then just throwing them away.

I am not trying to cause trouble here I just think that not all people who shoot care where the birds come from or what stunning creatures they are.

When we mow our meadows during summer we alway go through them with the dogs to run out any pheasants and their young and this works pretty well.
Last year I carried two young into a neighbouring field where the mother then joined them.

It would be much more fun I think if the pheasants could shoot back

fits

artieanna wrote: »

From what I hear alot of the birds shot are not eaten at all but dumped. The shooting is the sport but this does not necessairly mean they are eaten, I'm afraid.

They absolutely are eaten. Why would you dump tasty valuable pheasant?

Think about it, it doesnt make any sense...

If you visit the restaurants in Wicklow you will find most of them have pheasant on the menu at this time of year, just where do you think it comes from???

artieanna

I would love to live in your world.............
I have not yet seen pheasant on the menu in these parts....I am being completly honest..

fits

That does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that they are dumped. There are huge game estates in Wicklow, and therefore a plentiful supply. Not so much in the west.

I'd be more than interested if you found evidence of dumping. I think you'll find its a rumour spread by people with no understanding of hunting.

gerky

I know 25-30 people who shoot pheasant, of that I know only maybe ten or fifteen that eat what they kill, there is a large amount of game meat dumped or disposed of in one way or another in this country.
I also know people who shot pigeon in huge numbers and don't eat them, also several others birds and animal too.

Sorry but to say its only a rumour is to either not know the facts or to try to hide the facts.

The Hill Billy

I sincerely doubt that there is much, if any, dumping of pheasant. Anyone worth their salt who shoots would know plenty of people who would gladly take any pheasants off them.

As for pigeons - these are mainly shot as a means of reducing damage to crops. There isn't a huge demand for pigeons (people honestly don't know what they're missing!) hence these would likely be dumped unfortunately.

John Griffin

artieanna wrote: »

From what I hear alot of the birds shot are not eaten at all but dumped. The shooting is the sport but this does not necessairly mean they are eaten, I'm afraid.

Depends on who you are listening to i suppose. I don't know of anybody that goes out to shoot pheasants or any other game with the intention of dumping it. Yes they enjoy it and it is regarded as a sport, but whats wrong with that. I know people that don't eat pheasant, but they still shoot them. Any that i know give the birds to people that do want them. I'm sure some people will waste the odd bird through laziness but people waste chicken too.

I disagree with shooting birds for fun and then just throwing them away.

I don't have a problem with people enjoying themselves while hunting but I totally disagree with dumping pheasants when they can be used as food.

I am not trying to cause trouble here I just think that not all people who shoot care where the birds come from or what stunning creatures they are.

Maybe not all but 99% probably do care about the birds and appreciate them. To give hunting and hunters a negative spin for the perceived wrongs of a small minority is not fair.

When we mow our meadows during summer we alway go through them with the dogs to run out any pheasants and their young and this works pretty well.
Last year I carried two young into a neighbouring field where the mother then joined them.

Many hunters do this also and fair play to you for doing it. But you can't run the eggs out:D

It would be much more fun I think if the pheasants could shoot back

I don't think it is funny when people are shot or have guns pointed at them. This just shows your feelings and contempt for people who hunt. These people who actually bother to take responsibility for acquiring their own meat to supplement their diet and keep fit in the process, while the vast majority of our population fail to recognize meat as a product that was once a living animal and fail to care about or visualize what sort of life it led before arriving in Tesco's and the knock on effects to the environment.
I will make no apology for eating game meats, I butchered a deer calf this evening, which will be eaten. I shot it, i make no apology for that either. I rarely eat farmed meat. People are horrified at what i do, my own mother and sister wouldn't touch game meat, but they'll eat burgers, suasages and any meat that comes from a package with a sticker on it without question, even after i tell them that i worked as a butcher and in meat factories and have seen both sides of the fence. It's a crazy world.:rolleyes:

Go to youtube and watch "Kill it, cook it, eat it", made by the BBC. Watch the farming series and then watch the wild game series in particular the deer one.

Amalgam

Hill Billy wrote: »

As for pigoens - these are mainly shot as a means of reducing damage to crops. There isn't a huge demand for pigeons (people honestly don't know what they're missing!) hence these would likely be dumped unfortunately.

I'm surprised to see two members mention eating Pigeon, it's a lovely dark meat, very flavoursome. Cooked with wine and herbs or caramelised.. Yum. My family on the Mum's side are French. It was on the table a lot.

Funny, you get Irish people who would wrinkle their nose at the thought of eating Pigeon and other game meat, but will gladly gobble up the muck that passes for chicken in their local supermarket.

stevensi

I think the problem is with pigeon is that most people think of the dirty feral pigeons you get on the city streets and so that puts them off. I have to agree it's a lovely bit of meat when cooked properly.

Actually talking of pigeons and in this case wood pigeons i have never seen so many as i have this last couple of months. In fact on one day over christmas i counted over 100 flying over me. I presume they are migratory??

blinding

Just out of curiosity is their many people out there willing to gut and clean A bird of any type these days.

Amalgam

We have eight alone, in a small south Dublin garden, the size of small dogs. I will try and post a picture of one standing on a bucket (feeding area), for reference.. with that groove down the chest and bulging on either side. Myself and the mother were jokingly discussing the idea of getting someone in to dispatch them for food.

Surprisingly, They're quite aggressive and tetchy towards each other. Good food is being put out, they cleared two 500 gramme beakers in about 3 hours, I was hoping the smaller birds would have got a look in, they didn't.

I'm putting together feeders that only, tits, finches, robins etc. can get into.

The Hill Billy

blinding wrote: »

Just out of curiosity is their many people out there willing to gut and clean A bird of any type these days.

This probably isn't the thread for it (Food & Drink may be more appropriate if you are asking from a culinary perspective/Humanities if you are interested in the ethics of it), but I, for one, have no problem drawing a bird. Have done & will continue to do.

fits

I have done and will again too.

boneless

I am allowing this debate to go on with the usual caveat: if it becomes too far removed from the forum charter or becomes personalised it gets locked.

For the record, I eat game whenever possible. It was through being introduced to hunting that I developed a love of nature.

marlin vs

If I wasn't goint to clean and prepare it myself I wouldn't shoot it, so I do it myself.

blinding

Cheers to all that replied to my query about gutting and cleaning a bird.

I was just curious to know if there were many people out there still willing to do what is a not too pleasant task.
That was a good answer about being unwilling to shoot it if not willing to clean and prepare for the oven.

ODD-JOB

I'm curious to see how long this hunting thread goes in the nature and bird watching forum.

John Griffin

ODD-JOB wrote: »

I'm curious to see how long this hunting thread goes in the nature and bird watching forum.

Many of the people that appreciate/love nature and wildlife also hunt. Many others don't hunt. The OP obviously fell into the latter of the two. Regular contributors of this forum that do hunt tried to explain or justify the killing of pheasant that seemed to horrify the OP so much and put it into perspective.
Granted it has gone slightly of subject as some people have become curious and asked further questions.
Nature/ wildlife and hunting will always be closely linked to eachother and will always have the pro and anti element. Alot of the time the pro side feel misunderstood and the anti side feel they are dealing with barbarians. Conversation and discussion between the two can only be a positive thing provided it is civil and within the rules of the charter as our moderator has pointed out already.

I am allowing this debate to go on with the usual caveat: if it becomes too far removed from the forum charter or becomes personalised it gets locked.

For the record, I eat game whenever possible. It was through being introduced to hunting that I developed a love of nature.

Whispered

My Dad hunts, I'm vegetarian interesting conversation we have around the table at times. I don't fully agree with it, that is to say I personally have some moral problems with using animals for food either way. But if I had to choose to eat meat, it would be game only. I think what goes on in farming is so much worse.

My love and respect from nature comes from my dad, he is responsible about what he does and certainly doesn't dump the meat, in fact as a child in the 80's, a lot of our food was shop bought veggies and game meat as they could not afford much else. My dad still has game as often as anything else, depending on the time of year.

OP it's very upsetting to see it happen, but you can console yourself by knowing that those pheasants had a life as close to natural as you can get for "food" animals, they wouldn't have known what hit them and had a better life then the chicken many people are going to have with this evenings dinner.

Amalgam

It's nice to get an open minded and pragmatic post from a vegetarian.

marlin vs

John Griffin said it in a nutshell.I know it went slightly off topic but I think when someone askes a question it's only polite to answer as best you can.I get as much pleasure watching wildlife, as I do shooting, and I also try to respect other peoples views.

marlin vs

ODD-JOB, you've got it wrong, or else you have tunnell vision, I don't hunt for sport, I hunt to watch my dog's working, and anything that is killed is for the table and suppliment's the rest of my food, including the sliced pan. I reckon you'r only out with the wooden spoon as everyone else was polite up untill now. (selfish is not a nice thing to call anyone)

psychic-hack

John Griffin wrote: »

Many of the people that appreciate/love nature and wildlife also hunt.

If you really love nature and wildlife so much why do you want to put an end to it's life force and beauty with your gun.

Amalgam

ODD-JOB wrote: »

And i think the mod here is way out of order letting it go on , everybody thanking each other and congradulating each other on their posts....???

By all means argue a point or opinion, but when it comes to who thanks whom on a thread, that's none of your business as far as I'm concerned.

ODD-JOB

marlin vs wrote: »

ODD-JOB I don't hunt for sport, I hunt to watch my dog's working, now. (selfish is not a nice thing to call anyone)

Well my heart bleeds for you , it really does. Im sure you'll make a recovery though.......
It's just I dont think the wild-life you blow out of the woods will recover quite so easily.

I hope re-incarnation exists,......

Ban the animals-lovers .... protect the pro-hunters on this forum

marlin vs

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Lock this thread before i make sure its locked,


Lock this thread now or personal abuse it on its way, and ban me if you like , I've lost all respect for this forum now

The Hill Billy

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Im sorry , but you cant respect the other point of view whilst shooting a bird out of the sky ! it's one or the other...

blah, blah, blah...

Post reported for deliberately dragging the thread off-topic.

ODD-JOB - Take it to Humanities if you have an issue with people who are prepared to kill their own food.

John Griffin

psychic-hack wrote: »

If you really love nature and wildlife so much why do you want to put an end to it's life force and beauty with your gun.

Firstly most of my shooting is Deer Culling which is part of my job and it is done to control the deer population, which is unarguably necessary. All the meat goes towards food. I kill other wildlife because i eat meat like the vast majority of the human race. But unlike the vast majority of the human race i choose to do it in the most environmentally friendly and respectful way possible.
To most of the human race a burger is never thought of as a cow and a sausage is never thought of as a pig. I know what i am eating, i have seen it from the wild to the plate and i respect my meat, i worked hard for it and it is never wasted. Compared to the waste and pollution created by mass production, people who take their food naturally from the wild and respect the environment and animals should be applauded not scorned by those in ivory towers.
If you have never eaten farmed meat then i respect your views. But that said, i will not be told that i should not eat meat when i am naturally a omnivore and designed by nature to do so. It was hunting for meat and creating tools to hunt and gather food that stimulated the ancient human brain and made us what we are today.

Hammiepeters

John Griffin wrote: »

Many of the people that appreciate/love nature and wildlife also hunt.

This is 100% true. I dont know anyone out there who hunts and doesn't love nature.

John Griffin

ODD-JOB wrote: »

If you can appreciate nature and kill a bird for the sport...
If you did understand and value nature you would know about the importance that one bird has in relation to it's family structure. many birds pair for life in a family unit with a territory raising young.

If you know this , and feel that your sport enjoyment is more valuable than the life of a bird then you are really selfish.

Ever hear the sayin "Don't tell your Granny how to suck eggs":D:D:D
I am a professional conservationist (Wildlife Ranger). I don't need you to explain the dynamics of bird family structures.:rolleyes:
A cock pheasant can have many females and they don't mate for life. None of our game species mate for life or get married:rolleyes: And the hunting season is closed to allow for the breeding season.

By the way ,... there is nothing natural about using a gun to hunt.
If you feel hungry , go down and get a slice pan.

There is nothing natural about the monoculture of wheat to make the sliced pan, intensive farming and pesticides have done a million times more damage than the gun to wildlife.:rolleyes: And what about all the pigeons and crows that are shot legally at the request of the farmers during the breeding season to protect this wheat to make your sliced pan:eek::eek::rolleyes:

And i think the mod here is way out of order letting it go on , everybody thanking each other and congradulating each other on their posts....???

I think you are in the minority here at the moment. Maybe, just maybe you are incorrect or mistaken in your views, or else you unwittingly picked the most suitable nickname ever.;):)

Whispered

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Ban the animals-lovers .... protect the pro-hunters on this forum

ODD-JOB, people are having a conversation here, a civilised one. Not everyone is pro-hunting, but you would have to have had a very sheltered life not to accept that at times hunting is necessary.

ODD-JOB, if you are vegetarian then please accept my apologies for what I am about to say: Go research what sort of practises you are supporting every time you go to a supermarket and buy meat or dairy products.

Do you know how milk is produced? How many calves are born and killed so you can have cheese between your slices of bread.

Do you know that many many pigs have a life just as bad as battery hens in crates too small for them to turn around in.

If you ever have enjoyed a night at the dogs, I assume you know how many pups are killed every year because of this industry.

And I hope that every time you watch horse racing you are aware of the practise of breeding another mare at the same time so the throughbred, expensive foal can feed from her.

Seriously, research what you are talking about before shouting about how "hunting" is cruel, you support more cruelty every single day then you even realise.

Benazir Bhutto

Do 2 or more wrongs make a right ?

If u go to the supermarket or the dogs, does that make hunting wildlife ok ?

Wildlife is gradually being squeezed out to make room for humans,whether it be loss of habitat missing links in a food chain or hunting and I believe farmers should have to compete with nature and wildlife , and not just wipe out competition with a shot-gun.

In generations to come , will we all wonder where it went wrong ?

Rowley Birkin QC

Benazir Bhutto wrote: »

Wildlife is gradually being squeezed out to make room for humans,whether it be loss of habitat missing links in a food chain or hunting and I believe farmers should have to compete with nature and wildlife , and not just wipe out competition with a shot-gun.

I'm sorry but exactly what are you suggesting here?

Whispered

Benazir Bhutto wrote: »

Do 2 or more wrongs make a right ?

If u go to the supermarket or the dogs, does that make hunting wildlife ok ?

There is a huge difference in the quality of life for a barn chicken & a wild phesant. I personally hate the thought of hunting, but I accept that it has to happen because.....:(contd below)

Benazir Bhutto wrote: »

Wildlife is gradually being squeezed out to make room for humans,whether it be loss of habitat missing links in a food chain or hunting

....... who is doing more for conservation? People who spend their time giving out about how cruel some things are, how they buy organic, free range etc etc and so think they can hold their heads high for doing their bit for the animals, or the hunters, who are breeding birds who otherwise would not survive here or spending freezing mornings out killing diseased rabbits to give the population some sort of chance, hunters who have to cull one species (usually introduced and not native) to give another species a chance.

When I was young, my dad shot a magpie out our back, I was upset, he explained to me that the magpies were killing the robins we had in our garden. So while it was sad that this magpie was killed, it gave a whole family of robins a chance.

I could never be with someone who hunts, I could not have a rational conversation with someone who tries to tell me that hunting is just a sport to them. But I would not throw a fit about how cruel it is either.

It might also be wise to remember that these animals are prey animals. They are born to be killed, if a man does not shoot them, they may be caught by a fox etc, I can almost guarantee that they wont die of old age anyway.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I had promised myself to stay out of this thead as it was creeping into a Hunting debate - which belongs elsewhere. But...

helena.ryan wrote: »

....... who is doing more for conservation? ... the hunters, who are breeding birds who otherwise would not survive here or spending freezing mornings out killing diseased rabbits to give the population some sort of chance,...

When I was young, my dad shot a magpie out our back, I was upset, he explained to me that the magpies were killing the robins we had in our garden. So while it was sad that this magpie was killed, it gave a whole family of robins a chance.

I don't know what hunters you come across but any I know (and that's many) do not kill diseased Rabbits with the intention of preserving the remaining population. They shoot healthy and diseased animals alike; if they bother to shoot Rabbits at all. Breeding a non native Pheasant for shooting is hardly conservation. While the hunting fraternity on Boards.ie will quote many breeding programmes for other species, it is minimal.

Your Dad, I'm sorry to say, was wrong and perpetuating a myth. Why shoot one native species of bird over another? Did he shoot Sparrowhawks to protect the Blue Tits, Kestrels to save Mice? Magpies are native and deserve to survive as much as any species - and more than Pheasants. Their effect on songbird populations has been discussed here ad infinitum. Research has shown that Magpies do not have a detrimental affect on Songbirds. But let's not wander even further off topic.

That's my rant and I promise I'm out of this thread before it turns nuclear.

Whispered

Gordon Ugly Uteri wrote: »

I don't know what hunters you come across but any I know (and that's many) do not kill diseased Rabbits with the intention of preserving the remaining population. They shoot healthy and diseased animals alike; if they bother to shoot Rabbits at all.

I don't know many at all so you may be right about the ones you do know. I didn't mean shooting diseased rabbits, I meant hunting with dogs. Maybe I just know very reponsible hunters, but for a while, I know a few who specifically went out for diseased rabbits. Then again the popultion of rabbits where I'm from (around kilkenny) dropped dramatically for a few years due to mixo, so maybe it was a case of hunting and more than likely the rabbit caught would be sick. Also I know that when the population began to recover, they laid off rabbit hunting for a while to let the population build back up. There may have been a more plesant slant put on it for me, being a child at the time. Also AFAIK the gun clubs were encouraging members to shoot rabbits at one time.

Gordon Ugly Uteri wrote: »

Why shoot one native species of bird over another? ....... Magpies are native and deserve to survive as much as any species - and more than Pheasants. Their effect on songbird populations has been discussed here ad infinitum. Research has shown that Magpies do not have a detrimental affect on Songbirds. But let's not wander even further off topic.

He wasn't "shooting magpies to protect robins" He shot a magpie who had been pulling a robin nest apart. they were without doubt killing them, I saw it myself.

Perhaps it's not fair. Ideally there would be no need for conservation, or people killing animals to protect another.

.

Gordon Ugly Uteri wrote: »

That's my rant and I promise I'm out of this thread before it turns nuclear.

Believe me, I dislike hunting as much as the next guy. I just think that too many people jump on the "cruelty bandwagon" and don't know what they are talking about. I don't want it to look as though I'm trying to defend hunting as a sport, as I don't agree with it. I do think it is sometimes necessary.

Just as a matter of interest, where should a conversation like this go? In the hunting forum you will have biased posts, in the animal forum you will have biased posts.

lightening

ODD-JOB wrote: »

By the way ,... there is nothing natural about using a gun to hunt.
If you feel hungry , go down and get a slice pan.

This is like a comedy show. Processed food in plastic is more natural than freshly caught meat?

ODD-JOB, get out to a farm and see how your processed chicken lives in comparison to game that is shot in the countryside!

Vegeta

Gordon Ugly Uteri wrote: »

I don't know what hunters you come across but any I know (and that's many) do not kill diseased Rabbits with the intention of preserving the remaining population. They shoot healthy and diseased animals alike; if they bother to shoot Rabbits at all. Breeding a non native Pheasant for shooting is hardly conservation. While the hunting fraternity on Boards.ie will quote many breeding programmes for other species, it is minimal.

I will condition my post with the following, while I read this forum quite a bit I do not like posting here as I am immediately seen in a negative light due to my pastime and the forum I mod

Gordon Ugly Uteri I can only speak from personal experience here but here is my 2c. I am a member of a tiny gun club in a small town in the west of Ireland. There are 35 members of which about 5 actually do anything.

We have noticed a distinct lack of mallard on the lake in recent years, so 2 years ago we raised and released 100 (all we could afford to feed) mallard onto Lough Derg. No one in the club shot one of these birds (they were tagged so it would have been known if we did, sure they could have been shot by other gun clubs). We cleared/created a pond about 2 miles from the shore (which is a sanctuary so means no shooting allowed there) which they can flight into. We put up an electric fence around the pond to keep out fox and mink. Duck are still coming and going from this pond. Personally I see this is a net gain for the species, we added to their numbers and created a sanctuary for them.

Last year we released 100 pheasants and I believe 5 of them have been shot to date. Again the same type of work was put into them, sanctuaries with hoppers of feed left out for them.

Now we are a tiny bullsh1t gun club and if the interest was there we could have much more projects on the go.

Our neighbouring gun club, who we help from time to time, have tried to introduce partridge to the area again and control shooting on the bog land to give grouse a chance.

So I can put my hand up and say honestly that I have created some habitats and sanctuaries for the local fauna. We are a bad gun club by any measure due to terrible turnout and number of people helping but we are doing something at least.

Your Dad, I'm sorry to say, was wrong and perpetuating a myth. Why shoot one native species of bird over another? Did he shoot Sparrowhawks to protect the Blue Tits, Kestrels to save Mice? Magpies are native and deserve to survive as much as any species - and more than Pheasants. Their effect on songbird populations has been discussed here ad infinitum. Research has shown that Magpies do not have a detrimental affect on Songbirds. But let's not wander even further off topic.

What are we using to define a species being native. I thought magpies turned up sometime in the 1600s and were not a native (here at end of last ice age) species.

Even if they're not native I think Pheasants arrived as a quarry species for hunters at around the same time as the Magpie was recorded being here.

Not any real point there just think its a little unfair to say a magpie deserves to be here more than the pheasant.

That's my rant and I promise I'm out of this thread before it turns nuclear.

Pity, you are a level headed poster who makes good points

doctor evil

helena.ryan wrote: »

And I hope that every time you watch horse racing you are aware of the practise of breeding another mare at the same time so the throughbred, expensive foal can feed from her.

As far as I'm aware other mares (generally cobs) that are bred as potential surrogate mothers (if original tb mare dies or rejects foal) are covered earlier than thoroughbreds so the foals are born earlier and are older if needs be separated. These foals are then kept together and given milk in a bucket if needs be. The foal group may have an older horse to keep an eye on them and teach them manners. Weaning does not depend on age alone but also the foal as an individual and the way its managed.

Kaldorn

just want to say i think this is a great debate and i am enjoying reading it alot,I will sit on the fence!:o

Half-cocked

Vegeta wrote: »

What are we using to define a species being native. I thought magpies turned up sometime in the 1600s and were not a native (here at end of last ice age) species.

Correct, magpies arrived here some time in the 16th-17th century. They get a lot of bad press for robbing songbird nests. But if they have been here for so long, why have our songbird numbers only crashed since the latter half of the 20th century? Because it's habitat destruction, not magpies, that is the problem. Gun clubs actually create suitable habitat for songbirds. Its not the reason they do it, but a welcome by-product of shooting. All that gun club planted cover that pheasants love is also a sanctuary for much of our wildlife in an increasingly sterile countryside.

Research in the UK into song bird predation by introduced species shows the magpie has very little impact on numbers. The domestic/feral cat is the biggest culprit of them all - estimated to kill 55 million songbirds annualy! A magpie will mainly take eggs/unfledged young, 90% of which will die from natural causes before reaching breeding age anyway. The cat kills breeding adults therefore having a much greater impact on the overall songbird population.

boneless

I will not be told how to mod this thread. If certain posters have a problem with this let them PM me. I am close to banning people here but there are two or three who should take real heed of this; keep it civil.

I look forward to the PMs.