Afghanistan and the history of Islamic terrorism against the west

wylo

Hi, Im just wondering can anyone recommend any unbiased online articles or any books that could give me a better understanding of the real reasons for Islamic terrorism and hatred of the West and in turn the real reasons for the occupation of Afghanistan.

I have a keen interest in war and war history, but I just cant figure out the reasons for the war in Afghanistan. Im trying to find an unbiased view of it, something that states facts as they occured.
Are they there for gas pipelines or oil? Are they there just so they can have a hold of land in that part of the world? Are they genuinely there to stop terrorism and if so what are the reasons for this terrorism? Is it perhaps that there genuinely are real extremists that have a pointless hatred for westerners because of our religious beliefs and colour of our skin?

One side would argue that terrorists are justified (to an extent) because of the occupation of the likes of Afghanistan. The other side would argue that the occupation of Afghanistan is needed because otherwise terrorism will thrive.

So if anyone could point me in a direction to give me a better understanding of this whole thing it would be great. Also Id like to hear your opinions on this if you have any.
Cheers

wylo

ooops, just started reading the other threads, I didnt realise there was already a big debate on all of this. Sorry:o

Shutuplaura

Its a real doorstopper but I think Robert Fisk's The great war for civilization puts a lot into perspective.

mysterious

wylo wrote: »

Hi, Im just wondering can anyone recommend any unbiased online articles or any books that could give me a better understanding of the real reasons for Islamic terrorism and hatred of the West and in turn the real reasons for the occupation of Afghanistan.

I have a keen interest in war and war history, but I just cant figure out the reasons for the war in Afghanistan. Im trying to find an unbiased view of it, something that states facts as they occured.
Are they there for gas pipelines or oil? Are they there just so they can have a hold of land in that part of the world? Are they genuinely there to stop terrorism and if so what are the reasons for this terrorism? Is it perhaps that there genuinely are real extremists that have a pointless hatred for westerners because of our religious beliefs and colour of our skin?

One side would argue that terrorists are justified (to an extent) because of the occupation of the likes of Afghanistan. The other side would argue that the occupation of Afghanistan is needed because otherwise terrorism will thrive.

So if anyone could point me in a direction to give me a better understanding of this whole thing it would be great. Also Id like to hear your opinions on this if you have any.
Cheers

The reason for the war in Afghanistan, is to do with power. Capitolism. America wanted Russia out of Afghanistan. They created a terrorist organisation called the Taliban. To fight them of. They are now there again, under Obamas adminstration to either train them or end them

Knowing the US.government you wouldn't believe anything they say.

The US of A created a terrorirst organinsation. Not islamic extremist's. Not terrorists that take your freedoms. Not people who like to blow themselves up. This is all the crap you hear on the news though.

There is no attack against the west that is another mis conception. They are people. They have the same goals, dreams aspirations as you have. They want to love and be loved just like you.

The west attacked the east not the other way around. Please please inform yourself about this, because your spewing the nonsense you read and hear from the media.

Hookey

Yeah. Right.


On the other hand you could try this book by Charles Allen: God's Terrorists: The Wahhabi Cult and The Roots of Modern Jihad. Gives a good historical overview of the rise of fundamentalism in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (and the links between the two), and its engagement with the West (mainly the British Empire) going back to the 18th/19th Century.

OS119

i'd recommend Jason Burke's 'Al-Quaida' and 'On the Road to Kandahar', Lawence Wrights 'The Looming Towers', and an English Language version of the Koran (its difficult, but make sure to get an edition originally published in an Arabic speaking country - Arabic is not only a very precise Language in which an imperfect translation dramaticly changes what is said, but the Koran, rather like the Christian Bible, is written in a way that lends itself to missinterpretation) and not listening to people who externalise their own issues onto subjects they don't understand.

good luck.

Fratton Fred

mysterious wrote: »

The US of A created a terrorirst organinsation. Not islamic extremist's. Not terrorists that take your freedoms. Not people who like to blow themselves up. This is all the crap you hear on the news though.

After the Russians left there were something like 15 different factions fighting for control of Kabul, the ultimate winners were the ones funded heavily by Muslim fundementalists, called the Taliban. I heard that from a former member of the Afghan Army, not the media.

mysterious

Hookey wrote: »

Yeah. Right.


On the other hand you could try this book by Charles Allen: God's Terrorists: The Wahhabi Cult and The Roots of Modern Jihad. Gives a good historical overview of the rise of fundamentalism in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (and the links between the two), and its engagement with the West (mainly the British Empire) going back to the 18th/19th Century.

Since i don't have much time for this nonsense and what other books say.

Can I ask you, you do know these people in Pakistan are human beings. And you do know the human beings over there don't just so happen to want to attack the west.

Unless you can give me clear non media information to suggest that people over there are so mad. Cus there is alot of mad people over here in the west. Money money money, is the problem. There are people over there in pakistan who have been butchered by the west.

If that book is written from an American, you can surely bet my last sh!t, is as good as it. People believe alot of T.V nowdays, and they write books what they hear on the T.V. Just switch on fox news and CNN, and it seems that are eastern people are out to get us.

It's retarded.


The war on terror, is a bunch of crap.

mysterious

Fratton Fred wrote: »

After the Russians left there were something like 15 different factions fighting for control of Kabul, the ultimate winners were the ones funded heavily by Muslim fundementalists, called the Taliban. I heard that from a former member of the Afghan Army, not the media.

Who created the Taliban?

Locamon

Steve Coll's The Secret History of the CIA is a good start on Afghanistan and how it got to it's present situation.

OS119

mysterious wrote: »

Who created the Taliban?

Pakistani ISI with Saudi cash.

the septics initially gave support to the largely pastun groups who eventually morphed into the Taliban, but soon followed British, French and German practice and supported the northern and western based groups.

all the western powers had to deal with ISI and the southern groups to some degree in order to get specific items into (man portable Surface to Air Missiles) and out of (captured Soviet avionics and ECM gear) Afghanistan, but the bulk of weapons and cash support went through Iran (yes, i know), but none of those powers trusted either Pakistani ISI or the Pashtun groups and only interacted with them when no other option presented itself. the US gave Pakistan significant military aid - F-16's for a start - because the US feared that, in the short term, the Soviets would start to interdict the Pastun groups within the Pakistani border areas, and that eventually the Soviets, if successfull in Afghanistan, might push down the the Pakistani Indian Ocean coast to massively increase their Naval capability in the Indian Ocean, Pacific, and South Atlantic.

the northern and western groups were the ones the Taliban (as they had by then become) fought in the period between the end of the Afghan Communist government in 1992 and the US/NATO invasion of 2001.

the Northern and western groups eventually morphed into the Northern Alliance, a group of toerags as equally unpleasent as the Taliban, just without the links to Al-Quaida

Hookey

mysterious wrote: »

Since i don't have much time for this nonsense and what other books say.

Can I ask you, you do know these people in Pakistan are human beings. And you do know the human beings over there don't just so happen to want to attack the west.

Unless you can give me clear non media information to suggest that people over there are so mad. Cus there is alot of mad people over here in the west. Money money money, is the problem. There are people over there in pakistan who have been butchered by the west.

If that book is written from an American, you can surely bet my last sh!t, is as good as it. People believe alot of T.V nowdays, and they write books what they hear on the T.V. Just switch on fox news and CNN, and it seems that are eastern people are out to get us.

It's retarded.


The war on terror, is a bunch of crap.

You can moan about the evils of Western capitalism all you like (and I sympathise in many ways), but Islamic fundamentalism, and particularly Wahhabism, isn't just a response to those nasty Americans and Brits, and actually pre-dates their involvement in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia (e.g. its from the late 18th, early 19th centuries). Its a religious viewpoint that simply doesn't tolerate alternative ideologies (its convert or die basically), and its this kind of teaching that's infected all the Madhrassas in north west Pakistan. And you're right its about money, but unfortunately its about Saudi money (the home of Wahabbism), which is paying for this. If you want on "non-media view", read Bin-Laden's own writings; he's basically Hitler in a jelabba; advocating war against the West, but actually he's more concerned about wiping out Hinduism (hence the recent Mumbai attacks).

Bottom line is that their view of the world is fundamentally incompatible with ours; the problem is that we're attacking the symptom (Afghanistan), not the cause (Saudi Arabia). And that is because of money.

As for the "War on Terror" being a "bunch of crap", I agree, but probably not for the same reasons as you. I've been living in the UK for years until recently and I've seen how The War on Terror is being used to bring in restrictions and controls on the British population. Its the perfect enemy if you want to control your own population; vague, you'll never actually "win", and it can be anything you want it to be; far more useful than those Soviets with their nuclear weapons and giant armies. But just because its a load of **** doesn't actually stop islamic fundamentalism from being a real enemy...

Oh, and the author of that book I mentioned is a Brit historian born in India.

mysterious

Hookey wrote: »

You can moan about the evils of Western capitalism all you like (and I sympathise in many ways), but Islamic fundamentalism, and particularly Wahhabism, isn't just a response to those nasty Americans and Brits, and actually pre-dates their involvement in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia (e.g. its from the late 18th, early 19th centuries). Its a religious viewpoint that simply doesn't tolerate alternative ideologies (its convert or die basically), and its this kind of teaching that's infected all the Madhrassas in north west Pakistan. And you're right its about money, but unfortunately its about Saudi money (the home of Wahabbism), which is paying for this. If you want on "non-media view", read Bin-Laden's own writings; he's basically Hitler in a jelabba; advocating war against the West, but actually he's more concerned about wiping out Hinduism (hence the recent Mumbai attacks).

Bottom line is that their view of the world is fundamentally incompatible with ours; the problem is that we're attacking the symptom (Afghanistan), not the cause (Saudi Arabia). And that is because of money.

As for the "War on Terror" being a "bunch of crap", I agree, but probably not for the same reasons as you. I've been living in the UK for years until recently and I've seen how The War on Terror is being used to bring in restrictions and controls on the British population. Its the perfect enemy if you want to control your own population; vague, you'll never actually "win", and it can be anything you want it to be; far more useful than those Soviets with their nuclear weapons and giant armies. But just because its a load of **** doesn't actually stop islamic fundamentalism from being a real enemy...

Oh, and the author of that book I mentioned is a Brit historian born in India.

So there are islamic fundamentalists ot to get s westerners, for no reason? what do they dissagree about the west.

Since I'm aware I know human beings dont decide for no reason to dissagree with something for no reason.


You seem to project it as so, why? Religion is the reason you say? what exactly do they want? Could you give me non media based sources?

Bottom line is that their view of the world is fundamentally incompatible with ours

This is exactly the kind of crap I hear from Washington, T.V, George Bush/his sex buddies, Fox news and Bill O Reilly and any uninformed American.

Who is "our" and what is it, that is incompatitable to you? Who is with "you" on this sentiment. What exactly is righteous about the west over the east in this stance? There are alot of fundamentally and I mean really absurd wrongs that the west has been doing for the last 50years towards the east.

So what right do you and your "group" have to "allies" or the "west good people" over the east and whatever "enemy" that your blabbing on about.


You know this is exactly the problem in this world. We are all human, we all have desires, needs and wants. and one thing we all surely do is we all shi"t out of a pottee, but some people tend to think that thier sh!t never smell's, To the point, of sticking the finger at the person beside them. Put the head in the sand like an ostrich. This is what the west is doing. This is what your doing. Your making our sh!t like it's apologetic, and it doesn't affect the external factors to the world around us. We have an enormous and poignanntly negative impact on the east for the last 50years. The west is creating monsters over there intentionally.

I really have no paitence to sit and listen to you, point fingers and nit pick problems over there, when the west now is creating far more damage intentionally. All for the biggest curse in the world. MONEY.

We live in an imperfect world. Please don't insult the east and other regions like this knowing what the fundamentalist idealogy of what the west is doing there locally. The west is no better, and no example for the world by any means. This crap really riles me. It just is not acceptable. it is infact so hypocritical coming from us west to spew such judgments and imposure on other people just because we don't fundamentally agree with thier way of life. Ever hear of cleaning up your own backyard? This is what you should be doing before your all on the judging of what is going on in Pakistan etc. This is an imperfect world. Why constantly point out problems in other countries, when you have problems in your own country. I can sit here and point out many good things about Pakistan. I can sit here and realise what is currently wrong with the world, because I'm simply aware of what happens around me, I'm aware of what I do. I'm aware of my responsilibity. Once I keep a check on this I don't need to go pointing out other people's problem's. The USA love doing this.

It is frankly none of our business anyway. It is about money and money is the only reason the west are imposing on the east for the last 50 years. This is what is creating muslim extremist's that your dicusssing in the above. This is where the hate against the west stems from.

To be quite blunt. I'm sick and tired of the west ass shining all the time. For the last 8 years, I don't think we the west has any place to judge or give views on what's fundamentally wrong with the world.

We are all human, we all come with ****. And this notion that the east want to destroy us, is propaganda and paranioa to the highest degree. It is the greatest load of balony we have been spoon fed by the media for the last 40 years. We in the west generally have this perception that all people from third world regions are bitter,crazy and extremists.

It's quite idiotic on our part. I'm not all proud to be in this divide complex at all. It's for animilistic mindset. I.e dog eat cat, me vs you, Rep vs Dem, West vs East, Rich vs poor. This is all chaos and unlateral, unmodern and quite primiative behaviour of early man.

I wish I could sit here, and say we have evolved and bekoned to be better. Have we? I don't think we have, or well there is still alot of people so cot up with this conflict and division. They forget. So it's understandable.

diverdriver

Its a real doorstopper but I think Robert Fisk's The great war for civilization puts a lot into perspective.

No way! Everything by Fisk is hopelessly biased against the west. The fact that he write beautifully covers up the fact that he lost the plot years ago. He is very biased to the Arab viewpoint.Try someone else.
A better insight might be got from T E Lawrence's 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' and interesting from one of Antoine de Exupery's books. Not sure which right now. Might edit later. Islamic extremism isn't new, most often it's directed at other Muslims. It tends to be most popular among desert dwelling muslims with harsh lives who have contempt for their more easy going, soft living city dwelling co- religionists. The Taliban fall right into that category coming from a hard environment. It waxes and wanes over the centuries but nevertheless it resurfaces on a regular basis. At the moment it hates the west but it also hates shiites and frankly Al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than Christians.
I'm afraid Hookey is right Mysterious, you just need to do your research better. The west did not cause Islamic extremism because it predates western interest in the region. Yours is a typical viewpoint of someone with a west-centric point of view.

There are alot of fundamentally and I mean really absurd wrongs that the west has been doing for the last 50years towards the east.

It goes back a lot further than that. You are insulting the east by assuming that the root of all their problems and disputes lie in the west. Quite honestly we are not that important to them. Currently they have a baleful interest in us but mostly their fellow Muslims attract most hatred. We are infidels after all and barely worthy of a bullet.
I'm afraid you are fairly typical of many in the west who attribute a viewpoint to people that fits your own agenda. Frankly the extremists would put a bullet in your head quicker than the avearage American Republican born again Christian. You are exactly the sort of people they hate. One or two people went to Iraq and Afghanistan and found that out to their cost. Go and study the subject then come back an lecture us.

mysterious

diverdriver wrote: »

s.
I'm afraid Hookey is right Mysterious, you just need to do your research better. T

What kind of research should i go for, eh. I know far more about this topic than I need to express here. I'm just laying down a few principals and basics facts of what is reallly going on, and why there is muslim extremism. You and hookey seem to be the ones who know little and go on the bias here.

the west did not cause Islamic extremism because it predates western interest in the region. Yours is a typical viewpoint of someone with a west-centric point of view.

No it isn't I just have a better perspective on both sides. Your focused on what the media say, and what the west says. I've sat back and observed and now I've observed you, and your know different to the west stereotypes.

It goes back a lot further than that. You are insulting the east by assuming that the root of all their problems and disputes lie in the west.

Your really pissing me off now. Do do not twist my words. I made this point to hookey. I.E stop focusing on other's people's problems and focus on your own. I made my point specifically clear on this board. That the east has it's own problem's without the west causing more strife and hatred. Right now the only thing that is fuelling the hatred, is the west loathing in greed.

Quite honestly we are not that important to them. Currently they have a baleful interest in us but mostly their fellow Muslims attract most hatred.

Since you said that as a point, your clearly brainwashed, what you said was ignorant and insulting, I shall not have to dicuss that further, that was just embarrassing.

We are infidels after all and barely worthy of a bullet.

Who exactly? Did fox news tell you this? Just want to clarify an important point.

There are human beings living in other parts of the world. can I ask are you from the UK or America? dare I say Ireland even?

I'm afraid you are fairly typical of many in the west who attribute a viewpoint to people that fits your own agenda.

My agenda, rofl. What is my agenda. You obviously don't understand what the real issue is here. Watch to much T.V I guess. Could you tell me about this sterotype, most people don't fit my sterotype at all.

Frankly the extremists would put a bullet in your head quicker than the avearage American Republican born again Christian. You are exactly the sort of people they hate.

Nobody hates for no reason, bet you think they do, cus thats what fox news beats into their viewers everyday. I have many muslims friends and I never met one hateful person at all.

One or two people went to Iraq and Afghanistan and found that out to their cost. Go and study the subject then come back an lecture us.

Please tell me who they are, otherwise your waffling. I have seen many reports of Iraq veterans coming back saying they were disgusted of this war. They wished they never went in the first place. There were no terorrist target, Iraq was not a threat to America. Finally just to end this paragraph snappy, you might want to google a few horrific stories of solidiers coming back with their stories of been brainwashed to hate and kill any civilian they see, since there was no target they had to just kill everything in their sight. Many solidiers came back feeling remorsed, sick and guilty.

You obviously have no idea why America went into these countries. I don't need to lecture you, cus if I did, you would have alot more knowledge on this topic already. I'm just giving you a bit of actuallity.

Martyr

yeah...

All muslims just woke up one day and decided they would start hating "the west", makes perfect sense really :rolleyes:

this video might put it into perspective..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygxi2YOn5sM

its got nothing to do with nationality, religion, idealogy..its all about money.

cuppa

mysterious your ideas seem crazy to me.

Manic Moran

Since I'm aware I know human beings dont decide for no reason to dissagree with something for no reason.

You are correct. They don't. (I think, your double-negative is a little confusing). They always have a reason of some sort or other, one which makes perfect sense in their mind.

It may not make any sense to anyone else, though, is the problem. "They're bluffing. They wouldn't really go to war over that."

NTM

Hookey

Mysterious, you've already decided that the poor old islamic world is simply reacting to western greed and and you're not going to be diverted from your anti-capitalist, anti-globalisation slant. The very fact that you insist on asking for non-media sources on the internet (they're all media sources!), makes your mindset clear. I could throw articles at you all day and all night about islamic philosophy (its by definition a proselytising religion, just like Christianity, which immediately puts into conflict with western pluralistic tradition), about the most recent rises in islamic fundamentalism (look up Sayyid Qutb), about the very basic differences in belief that mean sharia law will ALWAYS be in conflict with democratic principles, and I'd be completely wasting my time, because you've already made your mind up.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not defending the so-called "War on Terror", but it doesn't alter the fact that there are people in the middle east who hate us like poison, not because the USAF bombed their granny, but simply because of who we are.

diverdriver

Mysterious you are a classic modern 'expert', who has 'educated' themselves via the internet. It's always illuminating, illuminati? to check out other posts by people debate with. I came across this cracker in the conspiracy forum which you started:

Barack Obama 2009-2012 Illuminati NWO End Times Conspiracy Exposed (1/7)

Hmm:rolleyes: Judging by the number of links you have indeed done a fair bit of research. It explains your point of view and indeed state of mind!

Back in the real world, go and find some books to read. Not those kind of books but real books written by scholars who've researched the topic.

Indeed that would the answer I would give to the OP. There is no one book to read. You need to consult several, many indeed are out of print. You have to be wary of recently published books written on the back of recent events. Often the best explanations come from books written before it all kicked off. I mentioned the 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. Lawrence gained a great insight into the Arab mind and more importantly was able to explain it to us. No need for conspiracy theories and end of times fantasies.

mysterious

cuppa wrote: »

mysterious your ideas seem crazy to me.

What was, in which part.

I never knew sense would seem crazy. But at least I try to make sense out of reality. This is a crazy world. With much deception to go around.

Maybe your just not aware.

mysterious

diverdriver wrote: »

Mysterious you are a classic modern 'expert', who has 'educated' themselves via the internet. It's always illuminating, illuminati? to check out other posts by people debate with. I came across this cracker in the conspiracy forum which you started: Hmm:rolleyes: Judging by the number of links you have indeed done a fair bit of research. It explains your point of view and indeed state of mind!

Back in the real world, go and find some books to read. Not those kind of books but real books written by scholars who've researched the topic.

Indeed that would the answer I would give to the OP. There is no one book to read. You need to consult several, many indeed are out of print. You have to be wary of recently published books written on the back of recent events. Often the best explanations come from books written before it all kicked off. I mentioned the 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. Lawrence gained a great insight into the Arab mind and more importantly was able to explain it to us. No need for conspiracy theories and end of times fantasies.

You keep putting me into labels. Now I'm going to educate you on respect and manners.

Stop it.

I'm an adult, that is not fooled or swayed by the agendas of others. I've looked rentlessly on this topic, and the behaviour and history of this conflict.

This is not a East hating the west. This is karma. You better work it out. Your version of reality is coming accross as nothing but fantasy. Your opionions are to self righteous, out of touch and quite frankly ignorant. There is two sides to every story. Once you learn that, then you will begin to understand what is going on. Right now you simply don't.

Secondly. I'm well travelled. I have muslims friends. my Aunt also married muslims. They are if not one of the nicest people I've ever met. They never ever used on word of hate against the west in my whole 3 weeks there. I can look at things from outside perspective aswell. I can certainly say that there are somethings they do within there culture that I don't agree with. But I have enough cop on and respect that it is there choice. They respect my place and beliefs also. It's amazing what you can learn and what differences you can overcome in this stance.

So please don't insult my intellegence and that I learn off the internet.


Where do you get your info?
Btw I read too, your level of insulting is unacceptable. You might want to take some time out and learn not to be so dogmatic, insulting and ignorant.

Another way to learn things. Is dicernment. Is been able to use logic, intuition. It is been able to take both sides of the spectrum, and come to your final conclusion on the topic of hand. I ask muslims on there experiences. I ask christians and Americans on their views vice versa. It's amazing what you can learn by communicating. And not just via the internet.


You seriously would want to go a check over your own post, and see how idiotic they are. You really are showing yourself up to be quite ignorant not only towards other people, but even to me now. So I'm not surprised you have twisted views of muslims.

It's disgusting to be quite honest.

mysterious

diverdriver wrote: »

Mysterious you are a classic modern 'expert', who has 'educated' themselves via the internet. It's always illuminating, illuminati? to check out other posts by people debate with. I came across this cracker in the conspiracy forum which you started: Hmm:rolleyes: Judging by the number of links you have indeed done a fair bit of research. It explains your point of view and indeed state of mind!

Back in the real world, go and find some books to read. Not those kind of books but real books written by scholars who've researched the topic.

Indeed that would the answer I would give to the OP. There is no one book to read. You need to consult several, many indeed are out of print. You have to be wary of recently published books written on the back of recent events. Often the best explanations come from books written before it all kicked off. I mentioned the 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. Lawrence gained a great insight into the Arab mind and more importantly was able to explain it to us. No need for conspiracy theories and end of times fantasies.

You are classic of the people who point fingers all the time, and never see yourself behaving.

It's actualy classic. When you dissagree with me, you insult and put me into a bracket and labels. You get angry and say I get my sources from so and so.

The classical things about that, is you actually don't know anything about me at all.

So this leaves me the conclusion, you will not understand or become aware of what most people can.:rolleyes:

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

You are correct. They don't. (I think, your double-negative is a little confusing). They always have a reason of some sort or other, one which makes perfect sense in their mind.

It may not make any sense to anyone else, though, is the problem. "They're bluffing. They wouldn't really go to war over that."

NTM

Well this is what the Media and the west, constanty try to drum into us people. That everyone in the east, are evil and just the "enemy"

:rolleyes: The whole idea of war on terror and the east wanting to destroy the west. Is a really really bad deception of reality.

They really human beings just like us, with flaws and again just like us. But I'm alway careful of people who point the finger all the time. This shows the real deception and dysfunctions.

The person who projects and points the finger elsewhere, is a major sign of someone who trys to put the attention off himself and his own onto the faults and flaws of others.

This I'm not fooled by. This is the sort of behaviour that I don't like at all. The west has done this so exstensively for the last 50 years. Demoniziing peope to the point they are not people.


This is really wrong.

mysterious

Hookey wrote: »

Mysterious, you've already decided that the poor old islamic world is simply reacting to western greed and and you're not going to be diverted from your anti-capitalist, anti-globalisation slant. The very fact that you insist on asking for non-media sources on the internet (they're all media sources!),

No I rather look for my own questionings, reasonings and facts. I also look to other people and thier views. I read books. I look up history. I look at how wars are created today. I look at what is the trigger.

I watch all news based sources. I watch the ones I don't agree with, purely to observe the agenda. For example I can look at fox news and use my awareness and see how they brainwash the people via their agenada of war mongering. I aslo study human behaviour and why people react and do the things they do. I do not believe the west goes in to attach the east for no reason. I do not believe the west are there for the good will. I do not believe the east want to attack the west for no reason. I do not believe that the west are not people, the same way with the east.

I can just see things in better perspective than you or driver. :P

Communication is a vital tool on gaining information. Travelling, meeting people and asking from their experiences. So your wrong. I don't depend on the media for my only sources.

makes your mindset clear. I could throw articles at you all day and all night about islamic philosophy (its by definition a proselytising religion, just like Christianity, which immediately puts into conflict with western pluralistic tradition), about the most recent rises in islamic fundamentalism (look up Sayyid Qutb), about the very basic differences in belief that mean sharia law will ALWAYS be in conflict with democratic principles, and I'd be completely wasting my time, because you've already made your mind up.

What about your own country and what the west does to the east too with their fundamentalism.

You keep forgetting the bigger picture. You keep pointing flaws outside yourself. See the dysfunction here.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not defending the so-called "War on Terror", but it doesn't alter the fact that there are people in the middle east who hate us like poison, not because the USAF bombed their granny, but simply because of who we are.

Oh yes you are.

Your defending them. I'll prove it. because your on the offensive on every stance. This means your pointing out problems elsewhere all the time, in order to deflect the attention on what the west does.

This is the same propaganda the war on terror mofos use.


People in the east don't hate us like poisoin, Your so brainwashed on this it's embarrassing. BUt if your country America bombed my home and killed my family, Yes I sure will hate you for it. Logic is clear, not nonsense like you keep spewing.

wake up.

Hookey

See what I mean? Just because you don't like to hear it doesn't mean it isn't true. You also refuse to see - despite admitting people in the middle east are "They really human beings just like us, with flaws and again just like us", and yet somehow some of them aren't flawed enough to irrationally hate us? See the flaw in your argument there?

Also, no-one says everyone in the middle east hates the west and wants to kill us; even Fox News don't say that. Once again, it doesn't alter the fact that some of them do.


NB. You might want to think about your definition of "media" as well. Anything consumed other than via talking to someone direct is media; there's always a filter, always an agenda.

Duffers

Mysterious, everything after the point where you failed to spell Capitalism correctly, I just skipped, barring the odd bit of lunacy that jumped out at me. You're the type of guy people meet at a party, talk to briefly, and spend the rest of the night trying to avoid.
English is clearly not your first language, I'm not judging you on that, but when you are spouting crackpot bullscheisse at least try to make sense dude.

'The aliens, the aliens, judgement day, etc baaah, it's all a conspiracy' etc:(

Poccington

People are nearly crossing the line from discussion to abuse, let's keep it civil lads.

mysterious

Duffers wrote: »

Mysterious, everything after the point where you failed to spell Capitalism correctly, I just skipped, barring the odd bit of lunacy that jumped out at me. You're the type of guy people meet at a party, talk to briefly, and spend the rest of the night trying to avoid.
English is clearly not your first language, I'm not judging you on that, but when you are spouting crackpot bullscheisse at least try to make sense dude.

'The aliens, the aliens, judgement day, etc baaah, it's all a conspiracy' etc:(

Well from now on I think you should be avoided, One for making a personal attack, the other reason I don't think my spelling or my personal life has anything to do with the topic.
The third reason, is your judgment is actually absurdly false and people don't avoid me. That is quite insulting. I don't talk about aliens. Nor do I talk about serious matters when I'm out socialising. There is a time and place for everything.

Right now I'm talking about The East/west conflict on this current thread. Your the only person an first to mention aliens on this thread.

You should take a look at your own post. :rolleyes:

mysterious

Hookey wrote: »

See what I mean? Just because you don't like to hear it doesn't mean it isn't true. You also refuse to see - despite admitting people in the middle east are "They really human beings just like us, with flaws and again just like us", and yet somehow some of them aren't flawed enough to irrationally hate us? See the flaw in your argument there?

Where is your proof that people from the ME irrationally hates us. Where is your source?, and who told you personally that a man from a country in the east hates the west Irrationally.

Also, no-one says everyone in the middle east hates the west and wants to kill us; even Fox News don't say that. Once again, it doesn't alter the fact that some of them do.

Who said people from the ME wants' to kill us even?
There is a valid reason as to why they might hate us though. But your more than willing to dismiss this, and say yet again, they just hate us and shrug shoulders. You keep making pathetic non backed up arguments stating that there are people over their hating the west for no reason. You made such crap claims, like people hate the west for irrational reason's. Yet you still haven't backed that up in any shape or capacity.

It is not true that people just hate the west for no reason or because it's some sort of irrational reason. Two people on this thread already said that is a very false notion, we the west are led to believe in alot of this rubbish.

It seems to me you have little experiences on reality of life in these countries, your only going by the propaganda they spew on the T.V. The idea of hate, is not created by nothing. No man has a will or desire or need to hate something for no reason. There has to be a specific reason that causes the trigger. Unlike you, most people understand this to be true.

NB. You might want to think about your definition of "media" as well. Anything consumed other than via talking to someone direct is media; there's always a filter, always an agenda.

Of course, but awareness, reality, grasping as much info, experiences and as much people as you can on a certain topic, gives you a much better perspective on the world, than relying on media sources from news anchors. Most news stations are biased and one sided view. I made the case that broadening your horizons and using as much research as you can from all sources and all sides, is the best way to learn and dicern.

Your doing an preaching the opposite. It is far better to look at all sides rather than having such a closeed one sided opinion like you have, and like the western media have and sticking to what these networks say without looking at all sides. The people I asked didn't have an agenda, and if anyone did, I would be able to see that. You are so focused on what the propaganda has led you to believe, that anything outside of that, is crazy or has an agenda.
Sounds like a bout of paranoia to me.

Martyr

Duffers, pointing out someones spelling mistakes because you can't argue your point across is really childish.

Manic Moran

This is karma.

A reliance on the principle of Karma is a little too mystical for my tastes. I prefer rationality, personally.

Secondly. I'm well travelled. I have muslims friends. my Aunt also married muslims. They are if not one of the nicest people I've ever met.

I fully agree with you. I can count amongst my friends anything from a Senegalese soldier (French-speaking muslim) through Arab royalty. They are incredibly hospitable people, I have sampled no small amount of their hospitality over the slightly-more-then-three-weeks I've spent in the Mid-East.

Doesn't change the fact that a small number of them hate our guts, either for our religion or our culture, and are willing to act violently on that hate.

NTM

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

A reliance on the principle of Karma is a little too mystical for my tastes. I prefer rationality, personally.

I fully agree with you. I can count amongst my friends anything from a Senegalese soldier (French-speaking muslim) through Arab royalty. They are incredibly hospitable people, I have sampled no small amount of their hospitality over the slightly-more-then-three-weeks I've spent in the Mid-East.

Doesn't change the fact that a small number of them hate our guts, either for our religion or our culture, and are willing to act violently on that hate.

NTM

In this case there is nothing mystical.

America and the west seem to think, that they get hated and resented for no "reason"

It is simply, what you attract, what you provoke and project out to the world.

I.e American foreign policy for the last 50 years.
Has created tyranny/puppet governments. Taking mineral oil wealth. Selling arms, creating and sponsoring terrorism in the ME. Destabliizing the global markets. Genocide. Invasion of soverienge countries against the people and their own country. Lieing to get thier own people into wars.

It's all about money. America will do absaloultely anything, if it means constant T.V brainwashing claming most muslims hate the west, you can be sure it's about money.;)

This is what I called negative karma. The west should really wake up and smell the coffee, and realise what chaos they create, rather than focusing on what muslims think or what Pakistan thinks and does all the time.

People don't hate something for no reason. This is not how the world or karma works.

That is my point on karma. There is nothing mystical or irrational about this. What I dish out will come back to me in some way.

Manic Moran

mysterious wrote: »

America will do absaloultely anything, if it means constant T.V brainwashing claming most muslims hate the west, you can be sure it's about money.;)

Christ, I must be defective. I somehow have managed to avoid being brainwashed by US TV.

NTM

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

Christ, I must be defective. I somehow have managed to avoid being brainwashed by US TV.

NTM

Are you sure?;) So tell me, what do you think of Obama in power. I'm curious on this one. This is also very on topic, it goes to what im going to ask you next on the foriegn policy in Afghanistan and the "war on terror"


When I was over there I couldnt get over how retarded the media is there. It was so biased and non-sensical.

Manic Moran

So tell me, what do you think of Obama in power.

My opinions are posted in detail on the US politics forum.

I voted for the other guy. I disagree with a number of his policies, and agree with a few of them. In my view he's not the end of life as we know it, just not my preferred candidate. I have no reason to believe he will not do what he thinks to be in the country's best interest.

When I was over there I couldnt get over how retarded the media is there. It was so biased and non-sensical.

I agree. I have posted to this extent on other fora as well.

So what is your follow-on question?

NTM

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

My opinions are posted in detail on the US politics forum.

I voted for the other guy. I disagree with a number of his policies, and agree with a few of them. In my view he's not the end of life as we know it, just not my preferred candidate. I have no reason to believe he will not do what he thinks to be in the country's best interest.

Oh Oscar the political mod pernamently banned me because of my strong views and opinions. Pity I cant see that. I'd be interested to see many American people on here with their political views.

Well you know it doesn't matter who you vote for. It doesn't matter if your republican or democrat these days. Whoever is backed the most by the money makes/elites/bankers/wall street/Zionists and ruling families.

The reason why I asked, is because the media play the biggest role in the turn out of every American election.

It is precisely why Ron paul did not get the spotlight as the only person that seem to represent the people and not the elite. The elites have the power and control of the media so therefore he is not going to be on the screen. If you look at how the media bullied him and muted him throughout the whole election. Youtube and google dumbed down his views and ratings all over the net etc. The media decides who gets in It's why the American people become so sucked in to this race of DEM VS REP. It's a way of dividing the nation in half and have people clashing with all the drama created by the media.

But's that another topic.

I agree. I have posted to this extent on other fora as well.

So what is your follow-on question?

NTM

My follow on question was, Obama is still going to continue the foreign policy of the republicans, still in Iraq, going into Afghanistan and fight this "war on terror"

And wait for it Obama has his script now where he wants diplomacy with Iran, as people like me have ****ed up their Iran war plans;) They keep blocking me on major sites. But I will just keep opening the can of beans.

The media over there are still trying to get the American people to fight an Iran war. They can't but they can get you to fight in Afghanistan to fight these "terrorists"

mysterious

It's was always ABOUT THE


MONEY and nothing but the money. If it means a million dead in Iraq, then its all blood profits. This world has to change now and fast. The idea of these wars is absurd.

It's 2009 and people brought into this change with Obama. Yet hes going into a another war. My next point maybe a little arrogant. But How come I can spot the deception so easily. how com I knew Obama was the biggest deliberate shock awe puppet in US history.

Obama or McCain getting into office is about the MONEY

War is war, money is money. and death is the result. When are we going to take a seat and look around what the hell is happening in this world.

These wars will only increase once the government have turned the internet into cable T.V. They have realised they can't put their agenda out their like they use to via T.V as most people don't watch the crap on T.V anymore. So the internet is biting them in the back, as we have access to world wide information at our finger tips.

This is why there was no Iran war;)
Don't get me started why they are going into Afghanistan. I actually am saying this right now. I personally think the main centre to be blown up or attacked is Washington D.C. They point fingers to much, I don't have respect for this nonsense.

Obama says, I'm invading in Afghanistan, why don't they themselves, Cheney and the gang go fight these wars, see what they say to the answer to that.

Manic Moran

That's OK re Iran diplomacy. His olive branch was rejected, so we're still where we were before. Nuking in three...two...one...

I didn't see a question, though. More a bunch of statements. (A lack of question marks indicated a lack of questions)

Don't get me started why they are going into Afghanistan

I sortof hate to point this out to you, but we've been in Afghanistan since 2001.

And wait for it Obama has his script now where he wants diplomacy with Iran, as people like me have ****ed up their Iran war plans They keep blocking me on major sites. But I will just keep opening the can of beans.

Don't think you might be overestimating your personal contribution just a teeny bit?

NTM

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's OK re Iran diplomacy. His olive branch was rejected, so we're still where we were before. Nuking in three...two...one...

I didn't see a question, though. More a bunch of statements. (A lack of question marks indicated a lack of questions)

Firstly what about Iran, I don't quite get your Irony in that post. Tell me more?

So... what kind of questioning are looking for, from my recollection. alot Americans don't generally question anything outside the media. Since I don't know you at all. I don't think I have to bring on many personal questions to you.

I sortof hate to point this out to you, but we've been in Afghanistan since 2001.

Yes I know that, but another full scale war. They have been creating alot of conflict there since the CIA do their dirty business. You can push the date right back to the cold war if you want too. America has alot of **** on its shoes. "it aint the Islamic fundamentalists" either doing it or making them do the things they do.

But of course, CNN and Fox all those nonsense networks, will tell you they are defeating the forces of evil. It's so corny and inane it's becoming just unbearable for me to watch that crap. It becomes disturbing for me to see fully grown adults like Bill O Reilly and other newcasts spinning out the mis-information all the time constantly to the point the majority of American's believe it. As the Nazi used to do, if you keep telling someone the same story all the time, they will end up believing it.


What are they trying to do now. Destroy the alqCIAeda or the CIA-taliban. If you know what I'm talking about

Or is it oil?
and money?
Is it to keep the Russians out again?

Or the best one in my opinion.
Is to give the American people the idea, that they are actually going to win the "war on terror" which is waffle. and get those "terrorists" that "plotted" 9/11. Took over Newyork aerspace with "penknives" And all passengers were "prepared to "sit" during the whole flight knowing their fate. And these "terrorists" were going to end their own lives. This is the official 9/11 story. People believe it. If they American government really were telling the truth they would have gotten these so called terrorists the day of 9/11. But as you know the offical story is bit of a fairytale.

Sometimes I wonder why am I on this planet, the amount bullsh!t here is just to much for people like me to cope with.

The people in Afghanistan "blew up the Towers on 9/11". You think? Oh dear, another war eh. This is the reason why they are in Afghanistan. It's balooooooony. Obama is been told to do this, to give the perception they are taking responsilbility now to take care of the "terrorists" who are out there "to get us". The story would kinda fit wouldn't it. This world is gone to the stage they needed a 9/11 so they could wake up. They way I see it they really need a good wake up call. They were no terrorists. Your American government were to busy making money out of Iraq while the American people were worrying about the so called terrorists.

The people with the money can create and do what they damn like, as we are to bloody asleep gullable to understand the reality around us anymore. Just some of us (including me) Has to do the informing now and it isn't by choice or fun either. I hate this reality as it is. Infact I can't bare it like this. Liars in this world get away with it, we human beings are not that smart to catch them.

Don't think you might be overestimating your personal contribution just a teeny bit?

NTM

Not one bit. I understand how this reality works. When you push your mark in the world, there is no limit as to what you can do or achieve;) I was forced to know this, since I'm getting banned on all sites where I speak of this. Not to mention the fanbase I have.

I'm not the only one, There is literally thousands of people out there "who are causing effect"

There are wars going on right now, that you can only imagine.

diverdriver

:pWell mysterious, you are indeed well named. Tinfoil hat time! Not only do believe in Barack Obama 2009-2012 Illuminati NWO End Times Conspiracy Exposed (1/7) but that 9/11 was an American plot. Then we have

And wait for it Obama has his script now where he wants diplomacy with Iran, as people like me have ****ed up their Iran war plans They keep blocking me on major sites. But I will just keep opening the can of beans.

You seem to get banned a lot. All those moderator must be in the conspiracy.

Sometimes I wonder why am I on this planet, the amount bullsh!t here is just to much for people like me to cope with.

Believe me we all know exactly how you feel:pac:

Look people here were trying to have a serious discussion about Islamic terrorism. The conspiracy forum is elsewhere. Plenty of illumati there.:p

mysterious

diverdriver wrote: »

:pWell mysterious, you are indeed well named. Tinfoil hat time! Not only do believe in Barack Obama 2009-2012 Illuminati NWO End Times Conspiracy Exposed (1/7) but that 9/11 was an American plot. Then we have You seem to get banned a lot. All those moderator must be in the conspiracy.Believe me we all know exactly how you feel:pac:

Whats your point, that your opinon is better? BTW the bannings were of 6th bullying. Don't worry I will sort that issue fairly lively and shortly. I don't get banned often either. Some mods can also behave irratically. I have people telling me they are not happy with the current modding of C.T at the minute. No it's not the old mods It's all but one.

So you believe who plotted 9/11. Do you believe everthing the government say think this is sufficient enough.I just want to tell you the government that plotted 9/11. Lie to get away with it. Lie to get away with murder and lie to to get us into wars, and there is no stopping from lieing about 9/11

You need to have a fresh look at the world, it's only then you realise who is the real monster.

Seriously what is your point anyhow.

Look people here were trying to have a serious discussion about Islamic terrorism. The conspiracy forum is elsewhere. Plenty of illumati there.:p

You brought up the conspiracy. Not me;) I was taking about the topic. This is very on topic. I think we should all know why they are starting another war. We should all know why they are going into another war. We should all ask why Obama is going into another war.

That is not conspiracy theory. That is called having intellegence. It is called trying to figure out with logic what is going on. We really don't need more lies and deception. We really don't need more war and genoicide.

So what should we talk about? What Obama, Cheney, Fox news, CNN and what you say to be true on this war. Seriously what exactly should we say and only talk about on this topic.

Why is it always okay to point at Islamic fundementalists, and not the elites in this war.

Looking forward to hear your response.

diverdriver

It's been off topic since you arrived.
As for this:

We should all ask why Obama is going into another war.

What war? Is he after us this time or is it just you? It's not in any of the papers or on TV. He seems like a nice chap not one for starting wars for no reason.:p

I missed this paragraph of yours earlier:

Not one bit. I understand how this reality works. When you push your mark in the world, there is no limit as to what you can do or achieve I was forced to know this, since I'm getting banned on all sites where I speak of this. Not to mention the fanbase I have.

Now that's a doozie. I think reality and you haven't been on speaking terms for a while!

Sorry that's ad hominen, couldn't resist. I'll take my ban!:(

mysterious

diverdriver wrote: »

It's been off topic since you arrived.
As for this: What war? Is he after us this time or is it just you? It's not in any of the papers or on TV. He seems like a nice chap not one for starting wars for no reason.:p

I missed this paragraph of yours earlier:Now that's a doozie. I think reality and you haven't been on speaking terms for a while!

Sorry that's ad hominen, couldn't resist. I'll take my ban!:(

On Ignore.

Manic Moran

mysterious wrote: »

Firstly what about Iran, I don't quite get your Irony in that post. Tell me more?

I'm saying that if people like you have been attempting to *** their war plans, you also have to deal with the Iranians who don't seem to be all that interested in the diplomatic side of negotiation either. Takes two people to talk. (Unless you're suffering from dementia, I guess)

So... what kind of questioning are looking for, from my recollection.

I'm not looking for any. You said you would pose one. The implication being that I was going to answer one when posed.

Yes I know that, but another full scale war.

Against whom? The ANA are on our side now. No full-scale combat opponents remain to be fought in the country.

But of course, CNN and Fox all those nonsense networks, will tell you they are defeating the forces of evil. It's so corny and inane it's becoming just unbearable for me to watch that crap.

Even a broken clock is occasionally right. Whilst I will agree with you that there is often much hyperbole and Orwellian-speak, in this case, yes, I think the individuals in question such as OBL and Mullah Omar are evil.

Is to give the American people the idea, that they are actually going to win the "war on terror" which is waffle. and get those "terrorists" that "plotted" 9/11. Took over Newyork aerspace with "penknives" And all passengers were "prepared to "sit" during the whole flight knowing their fate. And these "terrorists" were going to end their own lives. This is the official 9/11 story. People believe it. If they American government really were telling the truth they would have gotten these so called terrorists the day of 9/11. But as you know the offical story is bit of a fairytale.

I don't know if we're going to win it, but I'll settle for a stand-off. My despair over the wussification of society is already well-stated on other threads, though I admit I'm a bit of an outsider since I advocate going around wearing a sidearm as a matter of course and indeed I always have a loaded sidearm at home. The whole wolves, sheep, sheepdogs business. Up until 9/11 the standard 'advice' from authorities has been 'shut up, be good, and do nothing.' It is to be noted that once it became clear that such a policy was not conducive to long-term survival that the passengers on the Pennsylvania flight indeed did not sit quietly. I don't see why terrorists ending their own lives is particularly difficult to comprehend. Martyrism has been around for quite some time, and it is still routinely practised.

Sometimes I wonder why am I on this planet, the amount bullsh!t here is just to much for people like me to cope with.

Hitch a lift with a passing Vogon Constructor Ship. Problem solved.

The people in Afghanistan "blew up the Towers on 9/11". You think?

Slight oversimplification, but yes. If OBL and his buddies were in Afghanistan at the time, then that would be a pretty good summary.

Not one bit. I understand how this reality works. When you push your mark in the world, there is no limit as to what you can do or achieve;)

You wouldn't give the possibility of a notable set of political and military reprecussions from an attack on Iran being such that they would give pause to a kinetic action any credence at all for the fact that we've not bombed them, then?

There are wars going on right now, that you can only imagine.

Why would I need to imagine wars? I get to partake in them!

NTM

Ping Chow Chi

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why would I need to imagine wars? I get to partake in them!

NTM

that made me chuckle

diverdriver

On Ignore.

LOL:D Where's that ignore button?

Ping Chow Chi

you have a niffty ignore list in your user CP ... I have a select clientele in mine!

mysterious

good vs evil crack,

Simpletons never get it. The elites use this good vs evil term, so we are polarised into thinking pinny fathtom is good, and yummy boo too din is bad.

So we praise Fathtom to go to war and lead us. We yank ourselves into a war against yummy boo too din. And bascially most of us die.


The elites bascially have their goals mets, for our lives thrown out for a death match. None of you will ever get what is the simple reality of the West vs East is...

I'll await to be attacked because most people hate the truth thrown in their face.

Manic Moran

And bascially most of us die.

Oh, we'll all die eventually. Some of us just have the process accelerated.

NTM

mysterious

Manic Moran wrote: »

Oh, we'll all die eventually. Some of us just have the process accelerated.

NTM

Yes because they are giving their souls away for a war, that has no real positive result. Please dont tell me you are making an excuse for these unwarrented deaths:eek:

The reptile elites, say willy nilly has nucs, you believe them. You then went and fought the war killed thousands of people came home. The reports found out that they were no W.M.Ds. You think this accelerated amount of innoncents lives is ok???

This is horrific