Airport Police - should AGS take over?

metman

Picking up from the Airport Police blue light thread I thought it worth posting to find out what other boards members/ES personnel think of the Airport Police as an organisation and whether they're worth keeping as is, or letting An Garda Siochana take over their role.

FR rasied the point earlier:

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I still think it's madness that our airports aren't as secure as they are abroad. Would the only way around it involve us moving in and taking over? A little unfair..particularly on those who know the aerodrome like the back of their hand.

My own view is that the policing at Irish Airports should be clearly left to the Gardai. The airport police vis a vis policing serve no effective purpose at the airport and should be employed solely on static post security and left to handle the dedicated airport fire service. This would improve security and cut down on the needless bureaucracy that already exists at the airports where security is concerned. In my experience far too many airport police are under the impression that their role is akin to that of the Gardai, when it fact it is nothing of the sort.....hence the Garda presence at the airports.

Comments?

eroo

I disagree..

If AGS take over, it means more of AGS budget taken up from 'front line policing', so to speak.

Also, most AP personnel also have an interest in aviation and know their stuff i.e. flight times, type of aircraft etc AGS take over, you lose that. As well as that, imagine asking Student Gardai to work in an airport? Not exactly what they joined up for! Airport policing is quite different to regular policing..

However, I do agree that security at our airports is terrible. Why don't AGS create a dedicated armed unit to provide security/patrols at airports, static patrols i.e. manning desks AP usually would. Leave mobile patrols to AP imo.

My 2c

CO19

metman wrote: »

airport police are under the impression that their role is akin to that of the Gardai, when it fact it is nothing of the sort.....hence the Garda presence at the airports.

What can't the airport police do in the airport that the Guards can do ?

It'd also probably cost too much to do this I think.

kwalsh000

I would have to say that an armed presence by AGS should be done but the leave the DAPS in place. In face give them more responsibility such as x-raying, searching etc. Bring them back in at least for staff searches and give them more training and powers.

I know its going slighty off topic but the quality of the private security in the airport at the moment is terrible and very scary at how lax it is. Worked there 2 years, a scary 2 years.

maglite

Leave the security to the police. Thats all we need off them. If somehtign more garda has to be done call them in.


I would be against having gardaí wandering arrond the airport armed i dont think there is a need for it.

Dingatron

However, I do agree that security at our airports is terrible.

What have the Airport Police done so badly? Just wondering as a regular of the Airport as to what the AGS could do better. I agree its an unusual situation but they are well trained in all aspects of Aviation Security/Fire/Medical emergencies and have been doing the job for a great number of years without any major mishaps that I'm aware of.

As far as I am aware they are regularly audited so if things were amiss the audit would surely show this. A great number of lives have been saved by the guys trained on the defibrillators etc.

eroo

Dingatron wrote: »

What have the Airport Police done so badly? Just wondering as a regular of the Airport as to what the AGS could do better. I agree its an unusual situation but they are well trained in all aspects of Aviation Security/Fire/Medical emergencies and have been doing the job for a great number of years without any major mishaps that I'm aware of.

As far as I am aware they are regularly audited so if things were amiss the audit would surely show this. A great number of lives have been saved by the guys trained on the defibrillators etc.

Security is terrible because if armed terrorists entered Shannon with the intention of gunning down US troops and/or hijacking their plane, AP wouldn't be capable of doing very much except for dialing 999 or 112 imo.

G_R

i think that DAP should have a role similar to the British Transport Police, i.e. be a fully fledged police service with full jursidiction within the airport with full powers of arrest and search etc. If they need specialist help (forensics etc) they should get assistance from AGS. They should have an armed unit aswell.

It goes without saying that they should be fully trained on a par with AGS.

FGR

Dingatron wrote: »

What have the Airport Police done so badly?

This isn't even being questioned. It's not that we view Airport Police as poor in their role. They're only working with whatever means and powers they have. The question that is being asked is whether Airport Police have the legal capacity to control a scenario in the airport should a serious incident occur. Bear in mind that large numbers of people congregate in these areas; people of all nationalities and importance. All it could take is the decision of one nutjob or organisation to overthrow an airport or possibly kill all around them. They wouldn't do it in London without having the intimidating and exceptionally difficult task of confronting a serious number of armed officers first. Same goes for Paris, Madrid; the US and Canada.

You wouldn't want them having any sort of easy access to a plane, a public figure or access to as many nationalities as possible. I know it may sound like a ridiculous scenario but a lot stranger has happened in this world.

Airport Police do an excellent job in security. But that's just it; security. They're highly visible yet do not have the legal authority to enforce order or combat any such a scenario. They don't have any form of access to firearms or any other weapon. With that; what high-threat scenario would wait to allow for the Gardai to arrive following a telephone call?

There's a communication barrier and an (albeit invisible) authoritive barrier. A subversive organisation that knows it's stuff would be more willing to take on a group of unarmed civilians before confronting armed police.

What would a Garda presence mean? Deterrants: Armed patrols (perhaps for RSU trained members?), daily parade to oncoming units of all known criminals and all suspected criminals who may be entering or exiting the country via that one same port. Who would chance their arm when they know the police could be on to them from the moment the enter the terminal/front door?

It may be all pie in the sky. A lot of replies I suspect will be in the lines of "Ah sure..who'd want to do anything here?". When the chances of getting access to a plane without prior (and armed) confrontation are higher than most; and an active threat to terrorism resides right next door to us...Do you really think they won't consider it?

I may have given too much sensitive detail in relation to this and if the mods think the same then I have no problem with this post being edited. I however believe it was the only way to answer the above question while also expressing that I admire the good work the men and women in the APP do. It's not easy with legal authority; nevermind without.

eroo

Great post Mr.Reality!

metman

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I may have given too much sensitive detail in relation to this and if the mods think the same then I have no problem with this post being edited.

I think you're spot on mate. People who state that AGS would have nothing to add over what the Airport Police are currently providing do not understand or appreciate the difference in uniformed security and policing experience. As you rightly mention an up to date daily parade highlighting the latest intel on local/divisional/international criminals, armed patrols, police stop and search, drugs and expo dog patrols and officers who are experienced in all areas of policing would go a long way towards securing Irish airports in line with international standards.

When I fly through Heathrow, Stansted or City Airport I feel confident that security incidents at these airports are dealt with by police officers, who, on account of their role, have had to spend at least 3 years on a local division doing response policing. They have then had to undergo selection for aviation policing, wherein they have had to pass an authorised firearms officer course (as this is now standard for all aviation police officers), and have undertaken additional training in everything from boarding aircraft to detain suspects to hostile and disruptive passenger training. Would a civilian Dublin Airport Police staff member ever have training or experience anywhere near this level? No.

Would anyone here feel confident if BAA decided that Heathrow & Stansted Airports were to be policed by Group 4 on contract to them...in an in-house capacity. This is no different to the airport police. Frightening.

parsi

You can have all the armed window-dressing that you want but it's still a poorly-paid, under-trained poor fecker who's scanning the punters and their bags. It's still a different poor fecker who's manning the gates for staff and the like.

Armed police or army aren't going to deter suicide-bomber attacks on airports. They certainly ain't going to foil would-be on-board attackers.

And that's not a dig at anyone.

metman

Ah yes, the suicide bomber. Armed Police won't deter them, but they may just shoot them dead. Which is exactly why intelligence led policing and armed patrols are preferable to an unarmed civilian security guard (aka DAA Airport Police).

parsi

Ah yes they might. But do they ?

Experience seems to show that there is sweet-all prior intelligence about suicide bomb attacks (I think we can use Israel as a case in point).

Generally they seem to turn up and do their do.

metman

Indeed. No arguing that preventing suicide bombings is very difficult. However, that's not the issue at hand. To take things back on topic, would you rather such a responsibility lay at the hands of an unarmed security guard force, or with an intelligence led armed police force?

parsi

Hmm. Bit of a difficult one.

We don't seem to have much experience of "intelligence-led" police forces in these islands. We have had Brazilians shot mistakenly across the water, we have had piss-poor intelligence-led policing up in Donegal and there seems to be an inability to resolve the problems in Limerick.

This seems to point to a couple of options - poor policing or an overstated ability of "intelligence" to pre-empt problems. I'm inclined to lean towards the latter.

parsi

Ah.. I was wondering how long it would take for the real metman to come out...

Well you may have shot the suicide bomber but experience shows that the gob****e arguing over paying extra baggage for Ryanair also got shot as did a guy wearing a turban.

But it was all for the greater good.....

metman

You're sad, and off-topic.

metman

Have you anything to add, by way of an intelligent on topic reply (perhaps too hopeful), or do you simply wish to continue trolling? :rolleyes:

parsi

Originally posted by metman (before editing):

"---Quote (Originally by parsi)---
Ah.. I was wondering how long it would take for the real metman to come out...

Well you may have shot the suicide bomber but experience shows that the gob****e arguing over paying extra baggage for Ryanair also got shot as did a guy wearing a turban.

But it was all for the greater good.....
---End Quote---
Have you a genuine (non-sad, non-rhetoric, non-anti-police) comment to add to this forum?

Otherwise jog on you sad person"

Quite a good skill reading all my previous posts and deciding that they are anti-police. Maybe you should read them again and take off your blinkers or blue-tinted glasses ...

IS it that when someone disagrees and suggests that there may be a different way or God-forbid a different view that they get labelled as "sad" or "anti-police" ?

Is there a specific rule somewhere that states that what a policeman (or is it perhaps a wannabe ?) says goes ?

Does the normal boards rule of "attack the post and not the poster" not apply in this particular forum ?

metman

Read my last post. Take it under consideration and reply accordingly. Otherwise you simply go on my trolling/ignore list. I have little time for sad people in real life my friend, let alone online

afatbollix

I think the gardai should be there and the same with the rail security..

rail security had better equipment for a while than the gardai!!!!

( stab vests and extenable battons) ( do they have pepper spray yet??)

metman

Anto - yep its the same issue for the rail security. Should as earlier suggested, there be a Transport Gardai or a dedicated branch of the Gardai dealing with transport, as there is in the UK?

parsi

metman wrote: »

Read my last post. Take it under consideration and reply accordingly. Otherwise you simply go on my trolling/ignore list. I have little time for sad people in real life my friend, let alone online

Attack the post and not the poster little man.

If you have your strong view and can't even accept that there may be another one then well...

metman

parsi wrote: »

Attack the post and not the poster little man.

If you have your strong view and can't even accept that there may be another one then well...

Again, have you something to add to this forum, or have you just come on to sound off like you got a pair?

Bark bark little doggy.

Post something on topic otherwise you'e really just taking up valuable space on .....but you must get that a lot

parsi

anto-t wrote: »

I think the gardai should be there and the same with the rail security..

rail security had better equipment for a while than the gardai!!!!

( stab vests and extenable battons) ( do they have pepper spray yet??)

Interesting point.

There were two series on UK Tv about the UK Transport Police.

One series was excellent. showed them to be highly professional and able to deal with a wide variety of clientele. It showed them dealing with soccer crowds, habitual drunks, occasional drunks and general hasslers. I think this series may have been linked in with ITVs series on the London Underground.

There was a second series which showed them to be not much more than the rail security guys in Heuston. One episode showed them flapping around dealing with a large bird trapped under their station awning on the day the UK Queen was due to pass through - this episode (probably unfortunately) showed them to be not much more than a bunch of incompetent muppets.

The question really is what do we require Transport Police for and if we do have them will they be resourced ? We have a long history of giving groups responsibility but feck all resources.

The STT guys in Heuston seem to be dealing with homeless guys and the like. Do we need trained policemen for that ? Can we not just extend (if required) the areas of jurisdiction of the Guards ?

parsi

metman wrote: »

Again, have you something to add to this forum, or have you just come on to sound off like you got a pair?

Bark bark little doggy.

Post something on topic otherwise you'e really just taking up valuable space on .....but you must get that a lot

Listen mate - you don't have a truncheon here to enforce your opinions.

Attack my posts if you have an issue with them - after all this is a discussion forum but lay off the personal attacks.

metman

parsi wrote: »

Listen mate - you don't have a truncheon here to enforce your opinions.

Attack my posts if you have an issue with them - after all this is a discussion forum but lay off the personal attacks.

First off, I'm not your mate. Trolling, and flaming doesn't become you, and its so last year. If you have something genuine to contribute to this thread, then by all means give us your opinion on the airport police, if you have come on here to have a pop at the police, well 'mate' we've heard it all before. I'd rather just your on-topic opinions ta.

Sierra Oscar

Create a specialist aviation section security within An Garda Siochana that is tasked with the security of our Airports - much like the CO18 unit of the London's Met. Members of the unit can still receive practical training required for the role of protecting our airports. This would allow the "airport police" to share resources and intelligence with AGS in a probable more effective manner. It also reduces the need for two seperate management structures for two police forces.

Just another view on things.

eroo wrote: »

If AGS take over, it means more of AGS budget taken up from 'front line policing', so to speak.

Well, the current Airport Police Budget could still be retained for a specialist unit within AGS . .

parsi

metman wrote: »

First off, I'm not your mate. Trolling, and flaming doesn't become you, and its so last year. If you have something genuine to contribute to this thread, then by all means give us your opinion on the airport police, if you have come on here to have a pop at the police, well 'mate' we've heard it all before. I'd rather just your on-topic opinions ta.

Yawn.

You haven't addressed my actual posts particularly the ones dealing with whether or not there is ever actual viable prior intelligence of terrorist acts.

These posts aren't flames or trolling. You should have a gawk at my history before levelling such claims mate.

metman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Create a specialist aviation section security within An Garda Siochana that is tasked with the security of our Airports - much like the CO18 unit of the London's Met. Members of the unit can still receive practical training required for the role of protecting our airports.

I think that's the way forward. Some posters seem to think that aviation policing is far removed from divisional policing. This is incorrect. Policing is policing, and divisional skills can easily be transferred to an aviation environment, as happens on a regular basis here. The whole ethos of airport policing in the UK is that officers must have spent time in divisional/borough policing and be recommended by their divisional commander before they can even apply for a job with aviation security (CO18 in the MPS). If this is the level of experience required here, why is Dublin getting away with a bunch of uniformed civilians?

parsi

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Create a specialist aviation section security within An Garda Siochana that is tasked with the security of our Airports - much like the CO18 unit of the London's Met. Members of the unit can still receive practical training required for the role of protecting our airports. This would allow the "airport police" to share resources and intelligence with AGS in a probable more effective manner. It also reduces the need for two seperate management structures for two police forces.

Would that be an internal /sub-unit with dedicated staffing ? The idea of airport duty being just part of general rotations seems odd (bearing in mind the dynamics of airports) but a dedicated protection unit may have value.

Would they be armed ? Speaking from a Joe Public point of view armed Police in an airport don't generally reassure me on the basis that once Jimmy the Bomber walks in the door and explodes his suitcase its all over...

White_Feather

parsi wrote: »

You can have all the armed window-dressing that you want but it's still a poorly-paid, under-trained poor fecker who's scanning the punters and their bags. It's still a different poor fecker who's manning the gates for staff and the like.

Armed police or army aren't going to deter suicide-bomber attacks on airports. They certainly ain't going to foil would-be on-board attackers.

And that's not a dig at anyone.

I hope you are not talking about AP! I would suggest you do some research on AP before you come on here talking down about them!
AP stopped scanning bags at the entrance to the airport years ago. They do not search you when you are going through security etc. This is run by a different company called ASU (Airport search unit). And to suggest they are poorly paid and under trained! Like a previous poster already stated, do you realise the amount of peoples lives they have saved etc...

Sierra Oscar

parsi wrote: »

Would that be an internal /sub-unit with dedicated staffing ? The idea of airport duty being just part of general rotations seems odd (bearing in mind the dynamics of airports) but a dedicated protection unit may have value.

Would they be armed ? Speaking from a Joe Public point of view armed Police in an airport don't generally reassure me on the basis that once Jimmy the Bomber walks in the door and explodes his suitcase its all over...

It would be an internal sub unit - its members would be tasked with the sole duty of protecting the airports and not general activities that the AGS pursue. The main idea behind it is that top level management is shared and the benefit of AGS administration is utilized, intelligence such as the PULSE system is shared, operational support is shared, technical support is shared along with the ability of the unit to get immediate assistance if required.

They would not necessarily have to be armed on routine "patrol", however if firearms were stored in a secure environment in airports they could be used in the event of a situation requiring armed response is required.

parsi

White_Feather wrote: »

I hope you are not talking about AP! .

I am not talking about AP.

That is my point - we can have armed police in every airport but the bag scanning is done by Group 4 or the TSA or some other crowd who have proved to be less than effective.

A Guard with a gun patrolling the airport isn't going to change the fact that ultimately a lot of security is in the hands of lesser-trained and lesser-paid folk.

I believe (and this seems to stick in peoples craws) that the armed Guard at the airport is really the last resort. There doesn't seem to be the possibility that prior intelligence stops terrorist attacks - they seem to happen. The Israelis have plenty of experience of that, the UK also as did the Germans. Intelligence often succeeded in catching the perpetrators but not preventing the event.

So we have scarce Garda resources and we need to optimally deploy them.

parsi

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It would be an internal sub unit - its members would be tasked with the sole duty of protecting the airports and not general activities that the AGS pursue. The main idea behind it is that top level management is shared and the benefit of AGS administration is utilized, intelligence such as the PULSE system is shared, operational support is shared, technical support is shared along with the ability of the unit to get immediate assistance if required.

They would not necessarily have to be armed on routine "patrol", however if firearms were stored in a secure environment in airports they could be used in the event of a situation requiring armed response is required.

Sounds interesting and useful.

G_R

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It would be an internal sub unit - its members would be tasked with the sole duty of protecting the airports and not general activities that the AGS pursue. The main idea behind it is that top level management is shared and the benefit of AGS administration is utilized, intelligence such as the PULSE system is shared, operational support is shared, technical support is shared along with the ability of the unit to get immediate assistance if required.

They would not necessarily have to be armed on routine "patrol", however if firearms were stored in a secure environment in airports they could be used in the event of a situation requiring armed response is required.

i think this idea sounds quite good....seems to meet all needs

i think that if this was to actually happen, then all Gardai stationed at the airport should have full firearms training. Most/all officers should then operate unarmed and if the need arises they could arm themselves and deal with the problem. Kinda like a full deployment of RSU.

White_Feather

parsi wrote: »

I am not talking about AP.

That is my point - we can have armed police in every airport but the bag scanning is done by Group 4 or the TSA or some other crowd who have proved to be less than effective.

its run by the airport search unit which is completely separate. they have nothing to do with group 4. im nearly 100% sure that group 4 have no role in the airport apart from delivering cash etc in the brinks vans

parsi

White_Feather wrote: »

its run by the airport search unit which is completely separate. they have nothing to do with group 4. im nearly 100% sure that group 4 have no role in the airport apart from delivering cash etc in the brinks vans

We're talking about all airports as a whole -the point is that the Policing function is separate from the bag/person scanning function.

For example: In Heathrow they have armed police but its BAA who do scanning, in Berlin they have armed police and it's Group 4/Securitas who do the scanning and they also do Amsterdam.

metman

This thread concerns airport policing and whether or not AGS should take over, not bag scanning.

parsi

Re: .
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by metman
Do you always play devil's advocate or do you simply dislike police?
Good night, have some sleep.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=23
So you bubble wrap your anti-police sentiment on occasion.

Let's hope you and yours don't have to rely on 999 anytime soon eh?

parsi

Sorry, I thought that I posted that thread somewhere else...still I suppose I can't unring a bell....

And.. I pay my taxes, I obey the law my so in extremis I can dial 112 or 999 and expect the same level of service as anyone else and when the Guard turns up s/he won't ask "do you think we should be in Dublin Airport?".

You really need to read and digest my linked post...

metman

parsi wrote: »

Sorry, I thought that I posted that thread somewhere else...still I suppose I can't unring a bell....

And.. I pay my taxes, I obey the law my so in extremis I can dial 112 or 999 and expect the same level of service as anyone else and when the Guard turns up s/he won't ask "do you think we should be in Dublin Airport?".

You really need to read and digest my linked post...

Just before I put you on my ignore list, as you've shown that even in my attempt to pm you you're a small petty human being, I thought I'd reassure you that yes, you're quite right. Even though it often annoys me, sometimes infuriates me, to turn out to an address that I think is taking the piss, or doesn't warrant being on the 999 system.....I will still turn out, as will my colleagues. We are duty bound to do so, and our professionalism always shines through, no matter how big an arse you are.

I find it interesting that you come onto this forum and bandy about talk of suicide bombers. Do you ever stop to think that some forum members on the ES may have actually dealt with suicide bombers and their victims? I have, sadly. You don't give it much more thought than that though, eh?

Your posts indicate that you are one of a minority of people who simply have bad will against the police. This thread alone highlights that. Whatever bad experience you have had, I cannot know, but I would add that not all police are alike. However, I will defend my colleagues and our raison d'etre. If this does not sit well with you, then tough luck. By posting even my PM to you, you have highlighted to me what a petty individual you are, in some sad attempt to score points on here, the internet. This for me is a passtime. Perhaps you need to get a life offline?

PS - I'll still be turning out to you or your family's 999, as will my colleagues. Let's hope I/we don't have to, eh?

parsi

God bless you.

So by suggesting that there is more to resolving the issue of airport security than just removing the Irish Airport Police and replacing them with AGS I am :

- a terrorist,
- insensitive to those who may have suffered terrorism (because only ES forums members have suffered),
- undeserving of aid and succour from the emergency services (applies to me & family),
- a troll,

Nice job Metman.

You should join the PR crew of whatever police organisation that you work with (assuming that you are an actual officer and not somebody pretending to be one for kicks).

djtechnics1210

I walked through airport security/search a month ago getting a flight to america.... 2 AP there while i was being frisked. After they frisked me i walked through and then immediately took a lighter and 2 packets of matches out of my jacket pocket and put them into the bin behind. You should have seen the look on their faces. It scares me to think what people could get onto a flight. In my own honest opinion the airport search unit and the airport police are a complete joke when it comes to aviation security, I believe AGS should take over at least the search part of the job.

djtechnics1210

And why do AP need stab vests and asps??????? (their actually better equipped than AGS)

Esel

metman wrote: »

Read my last post......my friend...

metman wrote: »

First off, I'm not your mate.....

On-thread: One problem I would see with AGS replacing AP is that if that happened, members would probably be rotated frequently. Airports are relatively huge complexes, and I'm sure it takes a fair while to get up to speed on all the duties that would be involved. AP are limited but dedicated (as in that's all they do), so imo they are better suited to the role.

Capri

Dublin Airport is a unique enviroment. You've got Airport Police (APFS), Customs, Garda Immigration,AGS, U.S. INS Immigration, HM Customs and Excise,HM Immigration ALL mixing together.
Airport Police are part of the Airport community, they don't get shifted to Waterford airport or somesuch at the whim of 'someone'.
In their defence I'll say they do a very professional and courteous job, and have the support of ALL their aviation collegues in the Airport if there's a problem, which is more than can be said for AGS on the 'mean streets' on Ireland.
ONE area the APFS fall down on is keeping traffic moving on the Departures ramp. They just stand there while 2 or 3 cars block the road for the 40 cars behind them ( was up there the other day, 'Vehicle removal' Tow truck strategically parked with lights flashing ready for action - only thing , the drive was fast asleep in the cab ! )
If you go to most airports in the world, the cops really keep the traffic moving - not the Airport Police !

ivabiggon

just wondering... assuming DAPS stand for Dublin Airport Police Service...
what then do you call the lads that do it in Shannon?
Shannon Airport Police Service???:rolleyes:

Airport

In shannon there still combined as the Airport Police Fire Service, Dublin Airport only in which they have two dedicated services.

Airport

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I walked through airport security/search a month ago getting a flight to america.... 2 AP there while i was being frisked. After they frisked me i walked through and then immediately took a lighter and 2 packets of matches out of my jacket pocket and put them into the bin behind. You should have seen the look on their faces. It scares me to think what people could get onto a flight. In my own honest opinion the airport search unit and the airport police are a complete joke when it comes to aviation security, I believe AGS should take over at least the search part of the job.

The DAPS do no frisk you in any three state airports it is done by Airport Search Units of three airports.The ASU took over the friskem about 6 or so years ago They are frequently audited by IAA, D.O.T and ICAO. There training is of a very high nature.

There is a serious lack of information on this thread. I know i admit i have and will make further mistakes here on my posts, but some of the stuff been posted here is hilarious.

I would love to see stuff similiar being said about your organisation on this site and see your reaction. There seem to be alot of immature members here.

If you dont know something ask dont pretent to know.