Countdown to the Bomb

tallaght01

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhsncwkfkfcw/

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Airstrikes-On-Gaza-Hamas-Leader-Ismail-Haniyeh-Condemns-Ugliest-Massacre/Article/200812415194411?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15194411_Israeli_Airstrikes_On_Gaza%3A_Hamas_Leader_Ismail_Haniyeh_Condemns_Ugliest_Massacre

The news I've been reading just doesn't seem to be crazy biased.

Terry

dlofnep wrote: »

Total Palestinian deaths in the past 3 years: 1290 (222 of which were children)
Total Israeli deaths in the past 3 years: 86 (8 of which were children)

Watch Sky News much?

In fairness to sky news, they gave more time to the Palestinian negotiator than the Israeli representative this morning. (STFU. You find something to watch at 7am that isn't some pre-teen crap on nickleodeon).

The Palestinian woman did give as good as she got too.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ha ha
I have it from good authorithy the best is yet to come for the scumlord child killing terrorist scum who call themselves palestinian freedom fighters

wait and see what happens next

Ooh. I'm intrigued.
What are they going to do? Bomb the crap out of them again?

Ass Face wrote: »

With a bit of luck, Iran might lob a few nukes in to Israel to sort them all out. Israel really piss me off, with all their carry on in the west bank and the Lebanon.

Again, Cork and Kerry.

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

All people ever seem to focus on when defending Israel is the actions of the Hamas and other Palestinian militants. They never ever focus on the reason why. While the question of "would you sit on your hands while 450+ rockets are fired into your country?" is asked and used as a defensive argument as to the legitimacy of Israel's over aggression, you never hear the question of, "would you sit on your hands while your wife was denied access to the hospital at an Israeli checkpoint and as a result you lost your child, or if you had your house bulldozed for Israeli settlers while being told you needed a signature from a certain Israeli department to spare your house only to find out after 3 attempts at rebuilding your house and 3 more demolisions that the department is non existant, or that you heard on a loud speaker than the curfew is lifted and you allow your kids to go out and play or you decide to go to the store for what little food makes it into your village, only to be sniped in the head by an Israeli enforcing the "curfew".

Until you have been there and lived amongst them or at least are prepared to find out the reason why suicide bombings take place, why they fire inferior rockets into pretty much barren land in Israel. You will never be able to fully understand the situation and will continue to blindly support Israel because you only see the side the western media portrays.

Just looking at the footage on sky news this morning really brought that truth home.
They had a camera pointed across an area of no mans land which is where most of the Palestinian rockets end up.
It's pretty much a barren wasteland and nobody lives there.

Biggins wrote: »

To be honest, its a completely mad situation.
I think its going to take a completely mad solution to end this whole mess.

...like getting all the world top ambassadors from major countries and dividing them up equally and getting them to reside in Gaza and Israel border communities.

Then see who will take the risk of chucking something and receive the reaction from the rest of the world!

In reality, I can't see any current possible solution that is workable.

Or Bono. He can do it.

The simple fact is that Israel has the backing of America and the Palestinians have no hope.
They were forced out of their homes, and there are no prizes for guessing who helped force them out.

galwayrush

Why not give mayo to the Israelis and Roscommon to the Palestinians?:)

Biggins

galwayrush wrote: »

Why not give mayo to the Israelis and Roscommon to the Palestinians?:)

Even better, give the warring states to the EU.

They are in a rush at the moment to collect more states - if the population like it or not! :mad:

arse..biscuits

dlofnep wrote: »

Extremism exists in all walks of life. Palestinian people are just people. People who have been brought up in an extreme set of circumstances. Don't judge unless you've walked a day in their shoes.

That goes for both sides.
Can you imagine what it must be like for Israeli's growing up surrounded by many countries who all openly say they want to destroy Israel? Try walking in their shoes. As I already said, if they lose a war its over for them.
I really don't like getting into the history of the situation over there as its so complicated you could argue for the rest of your life about it. The reality is the situation that exists is the situation that exists and poeple need the strive for peace, Isreal has made alot of consessions recently but the Palestinians won't give a millimetre. Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

Biggins

arse..biscuits wrote: »

That goes for both sides.
Can you imagine what it must be like for Israeli's growing up surrounded by many countries who all openly say they want to destroy Israel? Try walking in their shoes. As I already said, if they lose a war its over for them.
I really don't like getting into the history of the situation over there as its so complicated you could argue for the rest of your life about it. The reality is the situation that exists is the situation that exists and people need the strive for peace, Israel has made a lot of concessions recently but the Palestinians won't give a millimetre. Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

Well said, that possible solution pretty much has to be accepted before there is a lasting peace - from both sides of the wall.

Terry

arse..biscuits wrote: »

That goes for both sides.
Can you imagine what it must be like for Israeli's growing up surrounded by many countries who all openly say they want to destroy Israel? Try walking in their shoes. As I already said, if they lose a war its over for them.
I really don't like getting into the history of the situation over there as its so complicated you could argue for the rest of your life about it. The reality is the situation that exists is the situation that exists and poeple need the strive for peace, Isreal has made alot of consessions recently but the Palestinians won't give a millimetre. Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

Would that be because the Israelis have forced the Palestinians out of their homes since the beginning of the last century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Biggins

Its gotten so far down the road now that, there has to be a halt to everything and an acceptance that despite the who's right and who's at the begining, constantly digging it up and throwing it consistantly in each others faces is getting no where yet again.

Will this stop? No, 'cos the fanatics on both sides have deep seated hatred too dug in to root out.

Think of it in Northern Ireland terms. There is still inherited reasons for anger and bitterness, etc but later as we thankfully kopped ourselves on, we saw that the consistant cycle of violence was getting us nowhere and said on both sides, "Enough was enough".

Israel and Gaza have to do the same - till that happens, nothing will change.

I'm not starting a blame game, they (and we) have got to move away from that - there is no choice.

wes

tallaght01 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

You wanted balance, so I offered you another source. I specifically picked a very pro-Zionist writer, who is pretty right wing to balance out the left wing writings of Illan Pappe. You can get 2 opposing pov's that way, who are both looking at the same time period.

If you choose to ignore it, go right ahead, as the the old rolleyes isn't going to work with me, as you clearly aren't bothered enough to discuss things.

Ass

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Again, Cork and Kerry.

I'd be more than happy to sacrifice the west bank to get rid of Israel. I'd be even more willing to sacrifice Cork or Kerry to get rid of Israel.

dlofnep

arse..biscuits wrote: »

Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

Asking for their bulldozed homes back isn't a lot to ask for. You seem to misunderstand the current state of life for the Palestinian people, and the basic requests that the majority of the Palestinian people want.

RugbyFanatic

galwayrush wrote: »

It's more like the small state of Israel with little more than 7 million people trying to defend itself and exist while surrounded by Muslim countries with populations of a few hundred million containing many millitants who would like to see Israel wiped off the map.

I hear this argument again and again but to be honest it simply doesn't add up when

(1) Israel have nuclear weapons
(2) Israel have one of the most modern and well equipped militaries in the world
(3) Israel have the backing of AMERICA


trying to defend itself? Your trying to make out like Israel is some poor defenseless country gripping onto its very survival when in fact its complete and utter bull****

RugbyFanatic

arse..biscuits wrote: »

Israel has to fight to the death every time it gets into a war because if they ever lose and are over run they will be wiped of the face of the earth. I can't think of another country that has that kind of threat hanging over them.

LOL please tell me what countries are going to overcome a nuclear armed country with the full backing of America?

Oswald Osbourne

dlofnep wrote: »

Total Palestinian deaths in the past 3 years: 1290 (222 of which were children)
Total Israeli deaths in the past 3 years: 86 (8 of which were children)

Watch Sky News much?

So it's really only 1068 vs 78 in real terms.

wes

arse..biscuits wrote: »

That goes for both sides.
Can you imagine what it must be like for Israeli's growing up surrounded by many countries who all openly say they want to destroy Israel? Try walking in their shoes. As I already said, if they lose a war its over for them.
I really don't like getting into the history of the situation over there as its so complicated you could argue for the rest of your life about it. The reality is the situation that exists is the situation that exists and poeple need the strive for peace, Isreal has made alot of consessions recently but the Palestinians won't give a millimetre. Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

What concessions are you talking about exactly? The Palestinians were willing to give up the majority of what was there country in exchange for the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. To say that the Israel are making concession is a joke, they have the vast majority of the country, and are presently offering the Palestinians what amounts to a bunch of disconnected Bantustans.

The solutions is very simple, 2 states, Israel behind the green line (the pre 1967 border) and the Palestinians on the other sides, living together in peace and security. There will be probably be negotiation to modify borders as well, with like for like land exchanges, which Israel isn't presently offering. There is also the matter of the refugee's which has to be sorted as well. This is the solution that has been around for years and will probably be what happens, if both sides get there act together. Basically both need to follow international law.

Also, how can you say Israel is offering concessions when there expanding colonies, hell there even expanding colonies outside there wall:

From Haaretz:
Barak approved settlement expansion despite Road Map

By Uri Blau, Haaretz Correspondent

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has approved dozens of construction projects in the West Bank in recent months, contradicting Israel's commitments to the Road Map, Haaretz has learned. Barak also approved the marketing of hundreds of housing units in settlements.

Some of the permits for construction projects were granted in settlements to the east of the separation fence, which are beyond the areas the state defines as "settlement blocks" and it expects to retain under Israel's control following a permanent agreement with the Palestinians.

Click here for the rest

Sorry, these concessions are a fiction. Israel is happy creating facts on the ground like they always have. Sorry, I hear about this lovely offer Israel makes story all the time, but people ignore the fact Israel is expanding it colonies and creating facts on the ground, how can the Palestinians possibly take this so called offers seriously, when Israel actions tell a very different story.

Israel is even expanding colonies outside there wall, which they say is for security, but this make no sense since there putting more people in danger then, by expanding colonies outside there wall.

Also, I disagree with you about the situation being complicated. Its seems very simple to me, especially as there are plenty of great resources out there to understand the conflict and to get both sides of the story.

The Saint

arse..biscuits wrote: »

Israel has to fight to the death every time it gets into a war because if they ever lose and are over run they will be wiped of the face of the earth. I can't think of another country that has that kind of threat hanging over them.

None of Israels neighbours have any intention of starting a war with Israel. There has not been a war between Israel or one of its neighbours in 35 years. The Arab league have repeatedly offered a full peace agreement (originally offered in 2002) and normalisation of relations for basically just abiding by international law. Pretty good offer if you ask me.

Biggins wrote: »

Given that there is clearly one sided strong views about the current situation, is there any chance we could talk instead about possible workable solutions instead of taking pot-shots at each other (Yes, I'm guilty too).

It might be less entertaining for others to read but at least we won't get our collective asses banned.
(and the wife likes my ass, she hates to see it whipped unless she's doing it!)

How about both sides abiding by international law. That seems like a reasonable solution to the conflict.

arse..biscuits wrote: »

The reality is the situation that exists is the situation that exists and poeple need the strive for peace, Isreal has made alot of consessions recently but the Palestinians won't give a millimetre. Its a hopeless situation until they accept that they can't get everything they want.

Please tell me what concessions Israel have made? From the basis of internatinal law the Palestinians are going to be the ones making all the concessions in a future peace agreement.

Neamhshuntasach

tallaght01 wrote: »

:rolleyes:



Wow, that's some paranoid head you have on you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Look at the picture there. Look at the headlines beside the pic. "In pictures:Gaza under attack"....."Gaza malnutrition and shortages"......"UK voices concern over Gaza". All on the front page.

Then look at the MUCH less prominent piece about child malnutrition in Zimbabwe

Paranoid? No it's fact. The why some Palestinians are suicide bombers and launch rockets into Israel is never focused on in the popular media. They just report the acts. I never said the media doesn't report on the situation at all. I clearly stated the "why".

I bet you wouldn't have found the picture of the 12 year shot dead 2 weeks ago by the IDF for being out past curfew plastered all over front pages. Of course you'll see them today. It's big news.

Biggins

The Saint wrote: »

How about both sides abiding by international law. That seems like a reasonable solution to the conflict.

No ifs - no but's. Completely agree. We can only continue to hope.

Neamhshuntasach

galwayrush wrote: »

It's more like the small state of Israel with little more than 7 million people trying to defend itself and exist while surrounded by Muslim countries with populations of a few hundred million containing many millitants who would like to see Israel wiped off the map.

That would make sense if only for the fact population doesn't really mean much when you have a bigger air force than Britain and France combined. Have a huge nuclear arsenal. Are more highly trained than your neighboring Arab countries. And have received well over 100 billion in military aid from the US since 1949.

Nodin

arse..biscuits wrote: »

As I already said, if they lose a war its over for them..

They aren't in one, and the state that posed the greatest threat to them is now one of the two that recognises them.

arse..biscuits wrote: »

Isreal has made alot of consessions recently.

Really? And those would be?

galwayrush

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

That would make sense if only for the fact population doesn't really mean much when you have a bigger air force than Britain and France combined. Have a huge nuclear arsenal. Are more highly trained than your neighboring Arab countries. And have received well over 100 billion in military aid from the US since 1949.

Probably the reason they managed to survive.:rolleyes:

Anyways, let's hope for a more peaceful 09 for everyone.:)
Diversity should make the world an interesting place, not a hostile one.

Neamhshuntasach

galwayrush wrote: »

Probably the reason they managed to survive.:rolleyes:

Anyways, let's hope for a more peaceful 09 for everyone.:)
Diversity should make the world an interesting place, not a hostile one.

Why should an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era make the world an interesting place?

Gareth37

The conspiracy theories forum will be flat out in the coming days with the real stories

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

galwayrush

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Why should an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era make the world an interesting place?

I was only saying that different cultures / people make the world a more interesting place.Nothing to do with a ship called Diversity.:rolleyes:

Neamhshuntasach

galwayrush wrote: »

I was only saying that different cultures / people make the world a more interesting place.Nothing to do with a ship called Diversity.:rolleyes:

Guess you never seen Anchorman.

Hank Scorpio

meh, am i the only one who cringes ever so slighty when someone from one of these nations gets on the bus?

tallaght01

wes wrote: »

You wanted balance, so I offered you another source. I specifically picked a very pro-Zionist writer, who is pretty right wing to balance out the left wing writings of Illan Pappe. You can get 2 opposing pov's that way, who are both looking at the same time period.

If you choose to ignore it, go right ahead, as the the old rolleyes isn't going to work with me, as you clearly aren't bothered enough to discuss things.

You don't get "balance" by reading the claims of those with extreme one-sided views, regardless of whether they're from opposite sides of the line.

You don't learn the realities of Northern Ireland by listening to the propaganda from both sides.

I've never used rolleyes on boards, but I think it was apt in this case.

On another note, I don't think dwelling on the past is the way to solve these problems. It's not worked in other conflicts.

There are headbangers the world over who think a ruck will solve their woes. The Israeli people don't just happen to be a shower of bastrds, as some would have us believe. Neither are the Palestinians.

It's just a circle of violence. It's like Northern Ireland. There's anger on both sides because of what's fresh in their mind. The Israeli people are angry and scared because their neighbours want to wipe them off the face of the earth. The Palestinians are angry and scared because Israel has a mighty army.

The cycle needs to be broken. I don't know how to do it.

The only thing I'm sure of is that paddies sticking their noses in to tell the world that Israelis are murderous swine really only make sense to their peers at their poxy rallies.

The real solution will undoubtedly involve a degree of reconciliation if it's to be solved without one side being annihilated.

tallaght01

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Paranoid? No it's fact. The why some Palestinians are suicide bombers and launch rockets into Israel is never focused on in the popular media. They just report the acts. I never said the media doesn't report on the situation at all. I clearly stated the "why".

I bet you wouldn't have found the picture of the 12 year shot dead 2 weeks ago by the IDF for being out past curfew plastered all over front pages. Of course you'll see them today. It's big news.

Where's the media coverage of the "why" of the bigger problems the world over? It's a long and complicated history, and it doesn't lend itself to a complex analysis in the tabloid press.
The BBC always have reporters embedded in Gaza.

You expect too much. A 12 year old died unjustly? Well, there's 300,000 child soldiers in the world being raped and forced to kill everyday. There's millions of babies ding of AIDS in Africa. There's hundreds of thousands of displaced and injured refugees in Dharfur and the Congo. Huge amounts of the girls have been sexually abused. The males have been beaten.

No-one gives a hoot about them. I think you need to get over yourself a little if you think the Palestinians have some kind of monopoly on their suffering not getting 100% coverage in the media. I know people like to think they're the only people fighting for their cause, and it makes it a bit more romantic if no-one else cares.

But, sadly, it's a recurring theme, whether you're palestinian, Israeli, African, Asian or even Irish.

Neamhshuntasach

tallaght01 wrote: »

Where's the media coverage of the "why" of the bigger problems the world over? It's a long and complicated history, and it doesn't lend itself to a complex analysis in the tabloid press.
The BBC always have reporters embedded in Gaza.

You expect too much. A 12 year old died unjustly? Well, there's 300,000 child soldiers in the world being raped and forced to kill everyday. There's millions of babies ding of AIDS in Africa. There's hundreds of thousands of displaced and injured refugees in Dharfur and the Congo. Huge amounts of the girls have been sexually abused. The males have been beaten.

No-one gives a hoot about them. I think you need to get over yourself a little if you think the Palestinians have some kind of monopoly on their suffering not getting 100% coverage in the media. I know people like to think they're the only people fighting for their cause, and it makes it a bit more romantic if no-one else cares.

But, sadly, it's a recurring theme, whether you're palestinian, Israeli, African, Asian or even Irish.

Do you understand the word topic? I'm talking about Palestinians because that's what the TOPIC was when i posted in this thread. Israel and Palestine. Do you not think i'm aware of other atrocities that occur in the world? I think you need to get over yourself a little and see the bigger picture. What i said can be applied to anywhere in the world where people are victims. The media always plays down massacres and deaths of innocents through whatever means when western or western supported Governments are responsible for such acts.

Yes there are some western media that go against the norm. The BBC pick and choose when to lean to the left, the Guardian can be good for accurate enough reporting. And Robert Fisk at the Independent is good. But not everyone gets their news from people like him. That's my entire point. If media is selective in what the report, people will be selective in what they know.

Terry

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Do you understand the word topic? I'm talking about Palestinians because that's what the TOPIC was when i posted in this thread. Israel and Palestine. Do you not think i'm aware of other atrocities that occur in the world? I think you need to get over yourself a little and see the bigger picture. What i said can be applied to anywhere in the world where people are victims. The media always plays down massacres and deaths of innocents through whatever means when western or western supported Governments are responsible for such acts.

Yes there are some western media that go against the norm. The BBC pick and choose when to lean to the left, the Guardian can be good for accurate enough reporting. And Robert Fisk at the Independent is good. But not everyone gets their news from people like him. That's my entire point. If media is selective in what the report, people will be selective in what they know.

Attack the post, not the poster.