so own up who went to mass

lostexpectation

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

JC 2K3

I don't think an atheist attending mass at Christmas is anymore hypocritical than someone visiting relatives they don't like.

You're doing something you don't normally do and don't really like in keeping with family tradition and as not to upset those whom you love.

If I had gone and wholeheartedly believed in and partaken in the worship of God, then yes, I would be a hypocrite.

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

Yawn. Not trying to be confrontational at all there, are ya?

I didn't but why would it make them a hypocrite to do something to make their family happy when it costs them nothing?

Atheism is not a belief it's the lack of belief, yada yada yada.

lostexpectation

yada what?

toiletduck

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

I did. Wouldn't call myself a hypocrite though. I had good reason to go, wasn't actively worshipping and to show respect to Catholics I didn't take communion.

Húrin

maybe they went for the lovely girls.

Rev Hellfire

Most grown ups try and reach compromises, doing so doesn't make you a hypocrite.

I agree with SDooM, epic fail, must try harder.

Húrin

Húrin wrote: »

maybe they went for the lovely girls.

I didn't go but that would have been the only reason to go if I did.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

Did you someone buy you Catcher in the Rye for Christmas?

Fanny Cradock

Not the first, then.

There can be only one Holden!

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

yada what?

It's not a belief, so why would an atheist care if they have to go to mass, save for the fact it is a mild waste of time? There is no atheist creed, nothing which says they can't go into a church and, for example, enjoy the ritual or the songs or the architecture, for example.

It doesn't make them a hypocrite because it is not contravening any of their beliefs- unless they have specifically said "I am an atheist and I will never go into a church again".

lostexpectation

well if people went to mass pretending to be still catholic to the family that would be the hypocritical thing. (or even not saying anything while they go)

"so why would an atheist care if they have to go to mass"

who has to go to mass?

i have no problem with people going to church, i do in a 'lets have discussion about it' way if they go on xmas day once, saying nothing for the sake of their mommy.

lostexpectation

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Most grown ups try and reach compromises, doing so doesn't make you a hypocrite.

i think it would be more capitulation then a compromise, it be more adult not to go.

Acacia

I went, because I think it's a nice ceremony. It's the tradition in my family and it is 'for the sake of my mommy' that I went, but meh. It's only an hour out of my life.

Midnight mass was kind of funny this year when the priest started laying into the Pope about the 'homosexual comments' he made during the week. He got very worked up about it- I thought he was going to rip off his vestments and run out of the church. It was actually worth going just for that.

Really, if people want to go, let them go.

lostexpectation

and it turns out that the pope didn't say anything about the gays anyway.

mikemac

I've no issue with non attenders who only show up for Christmas, weddings and funerals, possibly Easter too. No issue at all.

Because they are nowhere near as bad as some people who attend regularly. It's great that many attend regularly, but I hope they attend for the right reasons.

What I mean is my parish and your parish too, has people (nearly always women) who enter late and walk to the front so everyone sees them. They may also be the first to complain about a long mass and want the old PP back who did a service in 25 minutes flat.
You know the type, the same church goers who get involved in collecting for Trocaire and for the church collections but wouldn't cross the road to help a local and probably looks down on others in their own parish.

This isn't a rant, as I said there are people like this in every parish church in the country.

Me, I went to midnight mass, I though it was a nice ceremony. I went on my own, so be it. Maybe I'll attend this Sunday, maybe I won't. But I wouldn't judge others for non-attendance.

barfizz

Didn't go,

But I did have a very interesting conversation with my Aunt who is a Nun (has been for over 40 years and has worked in Zambia for most of it, She rocks)

She told me and my wife that she and the other Nuns watched the pope and they were furious with what he said about homosexuals, (quite a few have nieces and nephews etc...), there was only one nun in the group who agreed with him and they all think that she is a bit of a right wing zealot.

That's what i call a great conversation across the dinner table

Fanny Cradock

lostexpectation wrote: »

i think it would be more capitulation then a compromise, it be more adult not to go.

'Adult', you say. As difficult as it appears to accept, you simply have to face the fact that not everybody gets quite so worked up about religion, nor feels the need to admit the crime of walking into a church. *Gasp* If any number of non-Christians want to go to church for any number of personal reasons then so what?

And we Christians get pegged as proselytisers!

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

and it turns out that the pope didn't say anything about the gays anyway.

Whats that got to do with the price of cabbage?

TBH, I would care much, much more about my relatives feelings than my own ego.

Not that I even went, but in that situation I would.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

'Adult', you say. As difficult as it appears to accept, you simply have to face the fact that not everybody gets quite so worked up about religion, nor feels the need to admit the crime of walking into a church. *Gasp* If any number of non-Christians want to go to church for any number of personal reasons then so what?

And we Christians get pegged as proselytisers!

Personally I think it is a bit disrespectful to go along to mass pretending to be a Catholic when you don't actually believe any of it. It is perfectly possible to say you aren't Catholic so you aren't going, or go along (if you absolutely have to go) but do not partake in the actual rituals (praying etc). When ever I have to be in a church (it burns, it burns) I just keep my head down out of respect and my mouth shut.

People shouldn't be ashamed to saying they are non-religious, nor that they don't partake in religious ritual. Equally, when you think about it it isn't very respectful to the religion to pretend you do.

But unfortunately even in this day and age saying you are an atheist still gets you looks like you are some immoral heretic who would rather be spending your time having a naked threesome with a donkey and a gay midget while consuming large amounts of drink and drugs and running up a huge credit card bill on the internet than spending time in church.

If only things were like Wolfsbane's Disneyland utopia of 50 years ago. That was a wonderful time to be a live ... except if you were a woman of course .... or black .... or gay .... heck any minority ....

Gambler

I went down to the wifes hours for breakfast and when they all went to mass I took a walk with my camera

When mass was over they gave me a call and I met them all back at her parents house.

I could have gone to mass (and have been to a number of masses to see my wife sing over the last few years) but I figured I've made it 29 years without going to mass on christmas day, why break the habit of a life time!

Rev Hellfire

I think ultimately it comes down to respect for other people, the church doesn't enter into it.

I think its safe to assume in all cases here we are dealing with people returning (or still living) to the familial home.

If everyone is an adult then it would be disrespectful of the parents to insist that the others attend mass with them, they may ask and the response is a matter for the individual to determine.

The situation is different when dealing with younger children/siblings. If your parents wish to raise their children in a particular manner you should respect their wishes and if attending mass for one day in the year will avoid an unnecessary confrontation then you would hope people would be mature enough to suck it up and endure the whole hour or what ever, simply think of it as a gift to your parents.

pH

Wicknight wrote: »

If only things were like Wolfsbane's Disneyland utopia of 50 years ago. That was a wonderful time to be a live ... except if you were a woman of course .... or black .... or gay .... heck any minority ....

Or lived in Limerick.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Personally I think it is a bit disrespectful to go along to mass pretending to be a Catholic when you don't actually believe any of it. It is perfectly possible to say you aren't Catholic so you aren't going, or go along (if you absolutely have to go) but do not partake in the actual rituals (praying etc). When ever I have to be in a church (it burns, it burns) I just keep my head down out of respect and my mouth shut.

Which is exactly what I do when I attend a mass (funerals or weddings). I would be a hypocrite to repeat all the Catholic stuff so I sit where I am, avoid all the kneeling and crossing oneself, and try to look respectful.

If only things were like Wolfsbane's Disneyland utopia of 50 years ago. That was a wonderful time to be a live ... except if you were a woman of course .... or black .... or gay .... heck any minority ....

Yes, there must have been seething resentment in the black ghettos of Lurgan in the 50s.

rugbyman

Am an Atheist, but you know though there are many of us on here, or exist, it really is amazing how many of ones colleagues are not.

Have a look around your colleagues. Many non churchgoers, but not atheists.

Many, agnostics , who may or may not be occasional churchgoers.

It takes a lot of questioning, a lot of intellect and quite a bit of self confidence to be an Atheist.

I attended a funeral yesterday of a friend. It was great , the hymn s were moving but (no disrespect to my late friend) so is warm soup in the winter like your mother prepared, open fires, warm childhood memories.

studiorat

PDN wrote: »

Yes, there must have been seething resentment in the black ghettos of Lurgan in the 50s.

Indeed, Black B@stard used to mean something different in that particular locale. Let's be fair though, while sectarianism enjoyed much support over the years, racisim is only really getting started in NI these days. 15% rise in hate crimes!

None of the family paid any attention to the christian aspect of the celebrations. I attended the church of excess over the last few days. It's time to remove myself from the alter that is my sofa because I'm starting to feel a little like Jabba da-Hut.

For me churches are purely for weddings and funerals etc...

Dades

Wicknight wrote: »

People shouldn't be ashamed to saying they are non-religious, nor that they don't partake in religious ritual. Equally, when you think about it it isn't very respectful to the religion to pretend you do.

I thought we'd agreed - to have respect for the right to believe, rather than the belief itself!

Look, regarding Christmas mass it's all a matter of timing. People are back with their families, and for one week of the year some people are coaxed into going to a church. So it's hardly the time of year to tell mom and dad that you don't believe in any of it, as the answers to the inevitable questions are going to upset.

lostexpectation

how is it confrontational for you not to go to mass, how is upsetting to say to somebody you don't believe?

Fanny Cradock

I find this bizarre. As has been pointed out before, atheism has no creed. Why, then, do you feel it is your place to tell fellow non-believers what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour? Live and let live, no?

Galvasean

Last time I went to Xmas mass when everyone was shaking hands myself and my sister taught it would be hilarious to replace "Peace be with you" with "May the force be with you".
In actual fact no one noticed.

Tomk1

I just can't go into a church, I was at a Baptism and felt like hitting the priest or just walking out, which is what I evenually had to do. Maybe with ear plugs and dark glasses.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

how is it confrontational for you not to go to mass, how is upsetting to say to somebody you don't believe?

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

Fanny Cradock

Dades wrote: »

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

Yes, very possibly! It's also conceivable that a non-believer might actually enjoy the ceremony and the atmosphere (if not the message).

Doctor DooM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, very possibly! It's also conceivable that a non-believer might actually enjoy the ceremony and the atmosphere (if not the message).

Exunctly. Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean you don't believe in friends, family, and a little bit of tradition.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

I thought we'd agreed - to have respect for the right to believe, rather than the belief itself!

Well yes, that is my point. It isn't very respectful to Catholics to pretend to be a Catholic, particularly in a Catholic church. Even if one does not respect the belief one should (if they care that much) respect those who believe, particularly if they are friends and family.

The idea that people should go along with being Catholic at Christmas as to not appear out of place or upset anyone to me is rather ironic, because if someone was genuinely happy enough that you were doing that then I would question how much they respect their own belief system in the first place.

Dades wrote: »

So it's hardly the time of year to tell mom and dad that you don't believe in any of it, as the answers to the inevitable questions are going to upset.

Well I wouldn't recommend having that conversation about religion on the way to the church on Christmas morning

But the next question is why would someone only be having that conversation on the way to the church on Christmas morning...

Galvasean

SDooM wrote: »

Exunctly. Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean you don't believe in friends, family, and a little bit of tradition.

Cultural Christianity FTW?

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

Cultural Christianity FTW?

Halloween, cultural paganism. No one actually believes that bases behind that, but it doesn't stop people having a bloody good time (setting cars on fire, braking guide dogs, etc etc

lostexpectation

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I find this bizarre. As has been pointed out before, atheism has no creed. Why, then, do you feel it is your place to tell fellow non-believers what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour? Live and let live, no?

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board, and i find it also tiresome that people keep suggesting capitulation is compromise and that we should just shut up and be quiet, and let things stay as they are, when the status quo favours them, really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

lostexpectation

Dades wrote: »

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

well they would probably already know really, and why would these Christians make an issue of it, on Christmas of all days.

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board, and i find it also tiresome that people keep suggesting capitulation is compromise and that we should just shut up and be quiet, and let things stay as they are, when the status quo favours them, really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

People just disagree with you... that IS discussion.

I will stand up and be counted when I believe something is happening which I need to be stood up and counted for. Making life crap for my family at christmas would not be on the top of that list.

Nodin

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

I didn't, but its no odds for those who do.

lostexpectation

SDooM wrote: »

People just disagree with you... that IS discussion.

fanny said i was dictating a creed,I said i wasn't i was discussing, pay attention or don't comment on it.

I will stand up and be counted when I believe something is happening which I need to be stood up and counted for. Making life crap for my family at christmas would not be on the top of that list.

why would going to church make life crap for your family?

Fanny Cradock

lostexpectation wrote: »

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board

I'm quite aware that this is a discussion on a discussion board. Have I ever indicated otherwise
It's clear that not every irreligious person out there agrees that stepping foot inside a church (for whatever reason) is an act of capitulation to some sort of great evil. Freedom of choice, eh! What can you do about it?

Fanny Cradock

lostexpectation wrote: »

fanny said i was dictating a creed,I said i wasn't i was discussing, pay attention or don't comment on it.



why would be going to church make life crap for your family?

Ah, now! I didn't actually say 'dictate'.

As for your question, surely that has been answered before in this thread? Whatever you opinion on the foolishness of such a reaction, many people (myself included) would become upset if someone decided to become an atheist. Obviously one need not explain why. In this regard, it probably isn't too different from what an atheist might feel if a close friend of family member slapped on some praise and worship music and announced that they loved Jesus.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

So what the world needs is more people like you!

PDN

Dades wrote: »

So what the world needs is more people like you!

If everyone was like lostexpectation it would save the economy billions by reducing the number of keys required on a computer (you could eradicate both the Shift key and Caps Lock). Think of all the plastic that would save. Heck! It could pull us out of the recession single-handedly.

philologos

Ironically, one could say that lostexpectation is almost being dogmatic in saying that atheists who have gone to church for Christmas are hypocrites.

Tell me this lostexpectation, did you celebrate Christmas in any way with your family on Christmas Day?

If so it could be argued that you are a hypocrite for celebrating a Christian festival.

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

In the same way I'd say that many pagans welcome you in celebrating their pagan solstice festival every year.

philologos

pH, and that would be perfectly reasonable of them, but I cannot due to other religious obligations

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

pH, and that would be perfectly reasonable of them, but I cannot due to other religious obligations

Ahh yes, an atheist eats turkey and ham, wears a paper hat and gives some presents on the 25th December and he's now "celebrating Christmas", whereas Christians feast, put up trees, hang lights, send card and have Yule logs and they're not celebrating the pagan solstice, you must explain how that works sometime.

philologos

pH wrote: »

Ahh yes, an atheist eats turkey and ham, wears a paper hat and gives some presents on the 25th December and he's now "celebrating Christmas", whereas Christians feast, put up trees, hang lights, send card and have Yule logs and they're not celebrating the pagan solstice, you must explain how that works sometime.

What is the understanding that they meet together? What is the day honouring to those who have received you for Christmas dinner.

The context is of crucial importance.

Christians feast, put up their trees, etc in the knowledge that Charlemagne consecrated the day as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ Jesus in 800AD.

So yes, if you are there, and if you are received on the understanding that the day is for celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, yes you are celebrating Christmas.

A clue might be what they say to you. "Merry Christmas", "Happy Christmas", even "Happy Xmas" constitutes it as X is a commonly used symbol for Christ. You should know upon hearing this that the context you are being invited is one of a Christian festival to honour the birth, life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another clue might be "Do you want to come for Christmas dinner?". The sentiment is clear. Christmas is a Christian festival, therefore you are celebrating it if it is under that context.

I don't think the bold was neccessary but I added it in for good measure.

I quite frankly care for Christ, that's why I celebrate Christmas, I don't care for pagan beliefs, I don't care for commercialism. Christ's birth deserves to be honoured.

There are plenty of typically Christian things that occur, infact more Christian things than pagan influenced ones if you are to be objective in your analysis.

The day when people accept that Christmas is a Christian festival, and that we have every right to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour will be quite a day indeed. Notice, how I don't intend to compromise Hannukah or Ramadhan as being distinctly Jewish and Islamic festivals respectively. One would argue that it is only a matter of respect and tolerance. The pagans have every right to view the day whatever way they like, but to suggest that the Christians don't have a right to value this birth, and this act of God to bring the Messiah into the world, and then to say that I follow paganism is quite ridiculous.

I think it's quite fair to say that if you are involved in Christmas celebrations, you are partaking in a religious festival.