What if we voted no to Lisbon again?

JackieChan

I know it's not till the backend of next year but what are the consequences if Ireland votes no to Lisbon again. Perhaps by an even larger percentage.

It's hard to see how the could make some small changes and request a 3rd referendum...even Robert Mugabe wouldn't have the neck to try that.

Would there be real questions about are place within Europe?

I have no real insight but interested to hear others views.

jhegarty

For a sickly legal point of view thing just carry on as they are now.

Nice, maastricht ,..etc..etc.. are still in force.


It does however cause problems for any plans for adding new members.

sink

Here you can find a UCD Dublin European Institute report on many possible scenarios for Ireland future relationship with Europe.

http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf

VoidStarNull

I think trying again with Lisbon would be seen as a waste of time under those circumstances, even by those who support the treaty.

Members who want closer union would have to figure out a different way to achieve it. One possibility would be to set up parallel structures, i.e. the existing structures remain in place alongside new structures that willing members can subscribe to. But that would be very cumbersome, especially if it is done just for the sake of a single member (Ireland).

A more practical solution would be for Ireland to take on semi-detached status and allow the rest to go ahead with closer integration. Possibly some others such as the UK would push for this as they would also seek semi-detached status for themselves. Legally Ireland could try block this approach as no-one can be involuntarily ejected from the EU. However it would be a bit like grabbing the ball at a football match and refusing to play - ultimately, the others don't have to play either.

allthedoyles

JackieChan wrote: »

I know it's not till the backend of next year but what are the consequences if Ireland votes no to Lisbon again. Perhaps by an even larger percentage.

This recession will turn into a depression

ionix5891

sink wrote: »

Here you can find a UCD Dublin European Institute report on many possible scenarios for Ireland future relationship with Europe.

http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf

thank you for posting the link, it made for a disturbing read

oscarBravo

Reading that PDF now - interesting stuff, ta sink - one phrase has really jumped out at me: "The EU system works on the basis of ‘give and take’ and compromise in pursuit of consensus."

Reading much of the "No" rhetoric here, I keep detecting a subtext of "why should we give? why should we compromise?" - an attitude that I find puzzling in any area of life.

evercloserunion

Agree with oscarBravo here. The No sid have completely misrepresented ow business works in the EU. Ganley et al constantly told us how we would be sitting ducks if we voted Yes because because we'd lose a few vetos. But the EU does not work by everyone vetoing each other all the time; if it did, nothing would ever get done. I think we used our veto once in the last 20 years. Goodwill gets you much further. Absolutely nothing is achieved in the EU without compromise, and you can gain more from a compromise if you have a reputation for being a good, enthusiastically pro-EU country which is why we have been batting out of our league for so long.

Garrett Fitzgerald, a man who has actually represented us and fought for us at a European level (unlike Ganley or anyone on the No side), told us this again and again in the run-up to the referendum.

irish_bob

its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe

jhegarty

irish_bob wrote: »

its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe

What does this have to do with this thread ?

ionix5891

irish_bob wrote: »

its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe

the recession hit hardest after the last referendum (back in june it was a thundercloud on the horizon that i warned about here)

just look at newspaper headlines this autumn

since then out government had to go hat in hand to the EU to get money to pay the fat inefficient public employees (yes i am bitter about the public sector) and balance the budget, thank good we have EU to fall back on, look at what happened to another small country island in the Atlantic whose name starts with an I as well (who have alot of fish resources and had a credit fueled orgy), yes thats right Iceland went bankrupt

think twice about what would be the result of another No vote

cozmik

Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?

evercloserunion

cozmik wrote: »

Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?

How on earth can voting be undemocratic? Nobody is forcing you to vote Yes this time. Nor are they trying to deprive you of a vote.

The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?

Scofflaw

evercloserunion wrote: »

Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?

How on earth can voting be undemocratic? Nobody is forcing you to vote Yes this time. Nor are they trying to deprive you of a vote.

The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?

No, the people have spoken, and now they must sit down and shut up, for fear they might say the wrong thing.

non aude, abnege, tace,
Scofflaw

irish_bob

cozmik wrote: »

Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?

so you would rather be left behind by the rest of europe just so the electorate will be ( respected) , get real , in times like this , that kind of high mindedness can be ill afforded , we should be jumping at the chance for another bite at the cherry , the country tried to flush its future down the toilet last june just because the crapper that is the present economy stunk to high heaven

cozmik

evercloserunion wrote: »

The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?

Why? because we didn't get it "right" the first time? Surely, that is not how democracy functions?

evercloserunion

cozmik wrote: »

Why? because we didn't get it "right" the first time? Surely, that is not how democracy functions?

They are allowed to speak again because they are sovereign.

Phototoxin

Reading much of the "No" rhetoric here, I keep detecting a subtext of "why should we give? why should we compromise?" - an attitude that I find puzzling in any area of life.

well why should we compromise ? Its clear that the other side wont by forcing a re-vote and similarly with countries like germany where the populace was supeceeded by the government

cozmik

evercloserunion wrote: »

They are allowed to speak again because they are sovereign.

Well do the people want to speak again?

evercloserunion

cozmik wrote: »

Well do the people want to speak again?

I dunno, let me ask you this. Apart from a referendum (because holding a referendum on whether or not to hold a referendum would be silly), how do the people, in a democracy such as Ireland's, exercise their sovereignty in relation to decision-making on matters of policy?

Think... democracy. What do democracies have, apart from referendums.

Mr Ed

If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

Scofflaw

Mr Ed wrote: »

If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

Sure - you just need a constitutional mechanism, or elect a government that wants to put the matter to referendum again.

Mr Ed wrote: »

I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

There you go. Now you just need a constitutional mechanism to make that happen. Persuade enough people to vote for the people you think ought to be in, and you can have your number one as well.

Or should we not have any rules?

cordially,
Scofflaw

sink

Mr Ed wrote: »

If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

I've highlighted the important part that needs to change if you want your wish granted. In a democracy we have these things called elections which decides our government and our government decides when to hold referenda. It's a pretty simple concept.

Also on a legal note if Lisbon is ratified by all 27 states it can't be rescinded without all 27 agreeing to do so. Pulling out of the EU is the only alternative we would have.

jpfahy

Mr Ed wrote: »

If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?

evercloserunion

Mr Ed wrote: »

If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

No one person, or small group of people, has the right to demand something of a state which represents the people. That would be profoundly undemocratic. That is wy I have no rigt to demand a second referendum. According to our constitution which we democratically ratified and which is there to protect our democracy, the only body which can call a referendum to amend the constitution is the Oireachtas, which must be democratically elected.

Now, answer this for me please. Do you, or do you not, respect the Irish Constitution.

Scofflaw

jpfahy wrote: »

I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?

That one is easy enough - you just kick up enough fuss that the government decides it's politically worthwhile holding one. I don't think the government cares one way or the other, but they won't put the question to referendum unless they feel a new decision is required.

Personally, I think you'll find the majority are happy enough with the current slightly hypocritical status quo on abortion, and the rather less hypocritical status quo on divorce. Unfortunately, it looks as if the majority don't really have an issue with the idea of a second Lisbon referendum either. Hardly surprising, since people didn't really have a problem with Nice II either. There's never been any popular pressure to have an EU treaty reversed, if it comes to it - even the No campaigners go to sleep after a Yes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

cozmik

cozmik wrote: »

Well do the people want to speak again?

evercloserunion wrote: »

I dunno....

Nor do I

All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.

oscarBravo

cozmik wrote: »

All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.

People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?

ionix5891

oscarBravo wrote: »

People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?

might increase turnout at elections and referendaa

funny how people who don't bother voting bitch about the government down the road, democracy for ya

and then theres "If you dont know, vote No" brigade (sick)

If it's another no vote again sure there will be another chance to vote on it the following year :rolleyes:, either that or the government will just bring it in away regardless of a vote.

cozmik

oscarBravo wrote: »

People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?

Har-de-har

Why would those who voted no want to vote again? It's only yes voters who want to change the outcome. So in a sense the no voters are being forced to vote again in order to defend the outcome of the referendum.

It's pathetic and it's not democracy.

ionix5891

cozmik wrote: »

Har-de-har

Why would those who voted no want to vote again? It's only yes voters who want to change the outcome. So in a sense the no voters are being forced to vote again in order to defend the outcome of the referendum.

It's pathetic and it's not democracy.

ok then

what do you propose happens?

all the other EU countries asked our government to do something, and they chose another referendum as is required by our constitution (whether you like it or not)

what do you propose?

Ireland does nothing? after spending a decade negotiating this treaty theres no appetite to spend next decade doing the same (and ireland wont get as many concessions probably) in EU

read this document
http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf

the scenarios of not having a referendum or having another No vote are clearly examined in quite a detail, none of them are favourable to this country



im sick of No siders moaning but not putting forward any reasonable alternative for Ireland and the EU


the complete lack of understanding of basic politics and how democracy works from some of the posters here is disgraceful, do some research first please before rehashing the same tripe again

Thomas_S_Hunterson

ionix5891 wrote: »

Ireland does nothing? after spending a decade negotiating this treaty theres no appetite to spend next decade doing the same (and ireland wont get as many concessions probably) in EU

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

ionix5891 wrote: »

im sick of No siders moaning but not putting forward any reasonable alternative for Ireland and the EU

Leavign things as they are is a perfectly reasonably alternative. Things are good. Life is good.

ionix5891

Sean_K wrote: »

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

obviously majority of the other EU members don't agree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have signed the treaty and asked for Ireland's opinion again (which is quite democratic, not being given a vote is undemocratic)

they are giving Ireland another choice

scenarios resulting from choice this country takes is described in the link below

do read it, its quite interesting

http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf


whether you like it or not the ball is in our half and all eyes are on Ireland...

evercloserunion

cozmik wrote: »

Nor do I

All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.

Please address the rest of my post.

Furious-Dave

Sean_K wrote: »

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

Leaving things as they are is a perfectly reasonably alternative. Things are good. Life is good.

I'm unemployed, a lot of my friends are unemployed and one will have to emigrate to find a job. How exactly do you reckon "things are good"? WAKE UP!!!

I'm not saying that ratifying the Lisbon Treaty will improve the situation but you don't seem to realise that there is NO just dropping the matter. The EU wants to move forward. If Ireland wants to remain in the Union it will have to ratify some sort of treaty sooner or later that will allow this movement. Otherwise we risk the EU moving on without us. However they manage to do it I don't know but they will find a way. And if they don't there will political doldrums in Europe.

cozmik

ionix5891 wrote: »

ok then

what do you propose happens?

I propose we don't attempt to undo the will of the people. The Irish people have said NO to Lisbon and that's the way it is. (whether you like it or not.)

Disonyxiated

Right, so I'm not going to bother quoting everybody above me. I'm sure that if you are reading this thread then you've already been keeping an eye on the posts before me so I'm just gonna jump right in...

Thought #1. Lisbon II, a case of sore losers?

So, the government wants us to vote again because they weren't happy with the last decision! I have to admit that I was pretty happy with the outcome. Although I wasn't personally involved in campaigning or anything I was a decided no-voter & nervously awaited the announcement that we had won.

But the government wasn't as happy with the outcome, so we've to do it all again? Now, any of you who say that it is perfectly okay for them to keep on asking us again & again, answer me this... Had the Yes-Side won, would Sinn Fein & Libertas be able to get a second-chance!? I certainly doubt it.

The government is determined to get this treaty through. As a result the democratic process is being manipulated to force us to vote again for something we have already clearly declined. Think of the same situation in a non political setting...

''Heads or Tails?''
''Hmm, heads.''
''It's Tails.''
''Crap,best of Three?''

If the idea that we can have votes again & again because we are not happy with the decision was upheld then surely the opposition should use the opportunity to reverse the general election, since we are all regretting that decision!

This alone should open the eyes of the undecided to the goings-on in the new ''EU Federal Government'' malarkey which is being proposed! Ireland is the only state in the EU where the people were actually given the chance to make this decision. Now we are being told that our democratic voice is only acceptable when we are singing the same tune as the EU & the government!

We voted no in June, but that was obviously not the right decision now we gotta vote again, this is not how democracy works, this is a clear attempt to bully the people into accepting the treaty. After all it worked with Nice II didn't it!? O.o


Thought #2. A chance to scare us into voting Yes!?

Hmm, so they reckon that we all voted no because we just didn't understand the facts last time around. Am I the only No-Voter to notice the bombardment of negative news reports since the last referendum. Seem like Libertas & the rest of the 'misguided' no side have been blamed for everything from the recession to unemployment, to Eoghan Quigg not winning the X-Factor. O.o

Does this mean that the no side should also be blamed for the wasting of our tax money by top government ministers which has emerged in recent weeks!? Should we continue to trust these 'representatives' who clearly don't represent our popular vote!? Is this how the new EU will work!?

...

Just a few thoughts... I'm not usually political, really.

Furious-Dave

First things first - Welcome to Boards.ie Disonyxiated

Now with regards to your post. I accept that there are a lot of people, including some who may be in the Government, who simply want another referendum because they didn't get the result they wanted the first time. The flip side to that particular coin is that a lot of No voters don't want another referendum because they did get the result they wanted and want to hang onto it. I don't believe that all the main political parties, bar one who have their own agenda, would be for ratification if it were not in the interests of Ireland.

sink

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Is this how the new EU will work!?

First try finding out how this EU works!

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Just a few thoughts... I'm not usually political, really.

That's fairly evident as your entire post was high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument.

Spend some time reading a few of these websites.

EU Websites

Disonyxiated

Thanks a million for your replies! Sink, you have definitely compiled a lovely list of European websites there & I can assure you that I have read through them all prior to making a post, but thanks for reminding me!

Just before I get to the point though, while I did say I am not very 'political', I never said that I do not understand politics & the political process both in the EU & here at home.

So, you have stated that my post was, let me see... ''high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument'', gonna have to disagree you on that one. Yes it is high in rhetoric, I have done a bit of debating in the past & tend to slip back into that when I am being passionate about something. But to say that I don't provide a clear argument is completely unjustified & seems like an attack on my views, especially given that you haven't offered a clear argument yourself in this thread. Posting the list of websites as your counterargument hardly justifies as a response.

The main argument which I am trying to bring across here is that the entire democratic process in Ireland has been trampled on by a government determined to get this treaty through. Giving another referendum for the same treaty a mere 1½ years after the last one is unbelievable!

Think of other recent events in other democratic countries. Imagine the Republicans had decided that Obama's election wasn't the result they wanted & decided to run the election again next year. This is not how democracy works.

The Lisbon Treaty, presented to the Irish people in 2008 was voted against by the majority of the Irish people.[1] The voice of the Irish people should be respected. This is my argument. I know that I am not the only person on this island who feels that the government has blatantly ignored our democratic voice by pushing this treaty on us yet again.

Dave, you were 100% right when you said that no voters, myself included, don't want a second referendum because we did get the result last time around. Obviously. It's like passing your driving test first time around & being told that it has to be done again.

Basically what I am saying here is, that Ireland & the Irish people are being side-lined. The government has already shown us that our voice is less important than that of parliamentarians over in Brussels. If you are a dedicated Yes voter, I don't imagine that anything I say, or type will change your views. I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

Furious-Dave

Disonyxiated wrote: »

I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

The treaty was rejected, that is true, but only by 53% percent of those who voted, some of whom have since said that given another chance they would either vote yes or not vote at all. The main reason why I want a second referendum, as I have said to others, is that I feel that they made a balls of the first one. If there was a second referendum, where people were properly informed and the lies made by both sides were exposed as such, I would be satisfied, even if the result was again 'No'. Ok I would be disappointed, but I'd be satisfied.

hallstatt

its a disgrace to have a second vote to be honest. Its just bully tactics and defeats the very porpose of having a vote.... duh.....can you imagine the us presidential elections sayin... wait obama is black thats not what we want... were going to have another vote till you get it right and vote mccain therd be uproar.if the yes vote won do you think the no side would have a chance at another vote????? but in little old ireland we follow like sheep.But too be honest i can only see the economy **** really hittin the fan next year and i can see more people voting no this time round to try and "get back" at the government

sink

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Thanks a million for your replies! Sink, you have definitely compiled a lovely list of European websites there & I can assure you that I have read through them all prior to making a post, but thanks for reminding me!

Just before I get to the point though, while I did say I am not very 'political', I never said that I do not understand politics & the political process both in the EU & here at home.

So, you have stated that my post was, let me see... ''high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument'', gonna have to disagree you on that one. Yes it is high in rhetoric, I have done a bit of debating in the past & tend to slip back into that when I am being passionate about something. But to say that I don't provide a clear argument is completely unjustified & seems like an attack on my views, especially given that you haven't offered a clear argument yourself in this thread. Posting the list of websites as your counterargument hardly justifies as a response.

The main argument which I am trying to bring across here is that the entire democratic process in Ireland has been trampled on by a government determined to get this treaty through. Giving another referendum for the same treaty a mere 1½ years after the last one is unbelievable!

As outlined by Bunreacht na hÉireann once a constitutional amendment has passed both houses of the Oireachtas it passes to the citizens for a plebiscite. The Oireachtas is not restricted in any fashion to holding as many referenda as it wishes but it cannot amend the constitution without the amendment being passed by the people. If the people are not happy with the Oireachtas passing amendments and the resulting plebiscites they can be replaced in a general election. This is the democratic process laid down by our constitution and the government are in no way trampling upon it, they are in fact following it to the letter.

What could be their motivation? I am sure they value their jobs but they're risking loosing them by calling a second referenda. Whatever their motivation it must be pretty strong. As outlined in this report if Ireland fails to move forward in any sort of fashion the other members states will in no doubt seek an agreement excluding Ireland. There are only four likely scenarios.

1. A ‘New’ Lisbon Treaty with an Altered Ratification Process without Irish involvement
2. Denunciation of Existing Treaties and Adoption of New Treaty excluding Ireland
3. Leaving EU as Empty Shell in Two-Tier Europe isolating Ireland
4. Ireland Moving from EU to EEA

Which of those outcomes do you prefer?

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Think of other recent events in other democratic countries. Imagine the Republicans had decided that Obama's election wasn't the result they wanted & decided to run the election again next year. This is not how democracy works.

That is a deeply flawed analogy for several reasons.

1. It is at the behest of the government that referenda are held whereas elections are mandated by the constitution at least every 5 years.
2. The US constitution clearly dictates when presidential elections take place and the only way to change that is with a constitutional amendment. Just to propose a constitutional amendment requires a super majority (two thirds) of both houses of congress. It then has to be ratified by 3/4 of all states through their own legislatures. That no easy task and any attempt to alter the US election cycle will no doubt fail.
3. If you don't like the governments calls for multiple referenda you don't have to vote for them next election. That is how our democracy works.

Disonyxiated wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty, presented to the Irish people in 2008 was voted against by the majority of the Irish people.[1] The voice of the Irish people should be respected. This is my argument. I know that I am not the only person on this island who feels that the government has blatantly ignored our democratic voice by pushing this treaty on us yet again.

Dave, you were 100% right when you said that no voters, myself included, don't want a second referendum because we did get the result last time around. Obviously. It's like passing your driving test first time around & being told that it has to be done again.

While I can understand your sentiment it is not rational to compare the ratification of an international treaty with major implications if it either passes or fails to a driving test.

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Basically what I am saying here is, that Ireland & the Irish people are being side-lined. The government has already shown us that our voice is less important than that of parliamentarians over in Brussels. If you are a dedicated Yes voter, I don't imagine that anything I say, or type will change your views. I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

The peoples vote is of absolute importance, if you doubt that just check to see if there has been any constitutional amendments without the passing of a referenda. You have not outlined any reason as to why the treaty is bad. You have only argued that it is undemocratic to hold a second referenda and by implication that the constitution of Ireland is undemocratic. An argument which I reject.

Keith186

jpfahy wrote: »

I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?

I think you're right.

It's good to reflect when you can see the effects a decision has had but it would usually take a while to see the full effects, i.e. a couple generations or more on the divorce referendum would be a good timeline as opposed to every year.


Regarding the original post, who knows what will happen if we vote no again?

I wonder if the conspiracy theory forum predicted a recession? A lot of highly paid supposed experts on the subject didn't (although some did and they were gonna be right some day at least!).

I'm pretty sure I'm going to vote no again and I do think after reflection that Lisbon is welcome to a second vote if it has been amended in such away that properly addresses the issues that a lot of people had about it, it may swing a majority and that's democracy. Denying ~500 million other people to a vote isn't democracy whatever way you look at it though.

Yes there are systems in other EU countries where a public vote is not required which where probably put in place by a democratic decision a very long time ago but when there is such a resistance to it by some countries it seems that they are getting conned and I think the Lisbon Treaty will make this easier in the future by creating a mechanism where ultimately the people will get less of a say and won't be able to do anything about it.

Making a few concessions to Ireland regarding EU Commissioners, tax breaks and abortions is all worthwhile but it's no skin of the back of the EU as a whole if they can get this through.

PS, I just re-read this and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist just because I mentioned that forum at the start.

Furious-Dave

hallstatt wrote: »

its a disgrace to have a second vote to be honest. Its just bully tactics and defeats the very porpose of having a vote.... duh.....can you imagine the us presidential elections sayin... wait obama is black thats not what we want... were going to have another vote till you get it right and vote mccain therd be uproar.if the yes vote won do you think the no side would have a chance at another vote????? but in little old ireland we follow like sheep.But too be honest i can only see the economy **** really hittin the fan next year and i can see more people voting no this time round to try and "get back" at the government

Using a 'No' vote as a tool to hurt the Government would not only hurt them but in fact the whole of Ireland. Bare in mind that 'No' means no to the Lisbon Treaty not no to the EU in general. And so, even if there is another result of 'No' all it means is that the EU will have to renegotiate the Treaty. That's many years more work and will in fact be hurt the next Government as well as the current one. Though it seems that the "Vote No to hurt the Government" crowd haven't considered this...surprise surprise.:rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Disonyxiated wrote:

But the government wasn't as happy with the outcome, so we've to do it all again? Now, any of you who say that it is perfectly okay for them to keep on asking us again & again, answer me this... Had the Yes-Side won, would Sinn Fein & Libertas be able to get a second-chance!? I certainly doubt it.

The government is determined to get this treaty through. As a result the democratic process is being manipulated to force us to vote again for something we have already clearly declined. Think of the same situation in a non political setting...

''Heads or Tails?''
''Hmm, heads.''
''It's Tails.''
''Crap,best of Three?''

Or possibly:

LISBON SALESMAN: "Would you like a better deal on your health insurance?"
JIMMY: "What's in it for me?"
LISBON SALESMAN: "Well, you can see for yourself, sir."
JIMMY: "No, feck off, that's an awful complex document! How do I know it won't wind up making me have the compulsory abortions - or the conscription charges?"
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. If you don't know, just say No."
...
WIFE: "D'ye know, Jimmy, I'm awful sorry we didn't take that new deal on the insurance. Me banks are killing me, and the operation is terrible expensive."
JIMMY: "Ah bollix to them. Sure we've survived worse, even if it was by running away ta England. Anyways, I tole him No, and that's me last word."
WIFE: "Well, did ye at least read the thing?"
JIMMY: "Wha'? A feckin' great big legal book like that? Ye'd need yer head examined! I've no time to read that kind of ****e."
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. I reckon they made it deliberately complicated."
...
LISBON SALESMAN: "Are you sure you don't want a better deal?"
JIMMY: "Jesus Christ are ye thick? What part of No did ye not understand!? The cheek of ye, ye lousy muppeh!"
WIFE: "Ah Jimmy, g'wan, maybe we should think about it. Is there anythin' in it about de banks?"
JIMMY: "For feck's sake - I tole him No, and there's a feckin' end on it. He's imposin' on me free will, askin' me again. Catch me changin' me mind like some bleedin' woman! Now feck off you and don't let me see ye round here 'til I elect ye again."
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. It's an outrage, that fellow asking you again. Particularly since everything is his fault anyway. Now, how about you and me sit down and discuss whether you actually need health insurance at all?"

cordially,
Scofflaw

ionix5891

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Using a 'No' vote as a tool to hurt the Government would not only hurt them but in fact the whole of Ireland. Bare in mind that 'No' means no to the Lisbon Treaty not no to the EU in general. And so, even if there is another result of 'No' all it means is that the EU will have to renegotiate the Treaty. That's many years more work and will in fact be hurt the next Government as well as the current one. Though it seems that the "Vote No to hurt the Government" crowd haven't considered this...surprise surprise.:rolleyes:

There wont be a renogitation of the treaty, out of all the possible outcomes outlines in the pdf posted previously this is the least likely

as that would mean another decade of negotiations (for which none of the other countries have appetite for) and ireland not getting as good as deal as we have shown our cards and shown our middle finger

murphaph

sink wrote: »

A ‘New’ Lisbon Treaty with an Altered Ratification Process without Irish involvement

Presumably any such new treaty would need ratification by all the other states. There is no guarantee they would all do such a thing. They would have to avoid public referenda in many states where the ordinary people could easily vote no, after seeing how 'democracy' in the EU really works (against Ireland or anyone who dares question the 'project'). In any case, the United Kingdom would never ratify such a treaty, public referendum or not.

sink wrote: »

Denunciation of Existing Treaties and Adoption of New Treaty excluding Ireland

You mean, like the Constitution which denounced all previous treaties and started afresh....but which was rejected by 2 founder members of the EEC? Absolutely no guarantee that they would be able to get that through. I would go so far as to say such a thing would probably require a referendum in France at least and would fail there as the constitution did.

sink wrote: »

Leaving EU as Empty Shell in Two-Tier Europe isolating Ireland

This would require so much money as to be obscene. The ordinary joes of Europe would see their taxes paying for this empty shell and would not be best pleased.

sink wrote: »

Ireland Moving from EU to EEA

But we have to go voluntarily.

sink wrote: »

Which of those outcomes do you prefer?
Which one of them woud the civil servants in Brussels prefer? None of them are palatable to those career 'project' managers either!

Any of the above 'radical' processes will highlight even more that the EU project does not tolerate dissent from the plebs. The french plebs and the dutch plebs and the irish plebs al said no and a 'way' has been found to totally ignore their wishes (don't give me the old "the french and dutch were asked what the problems were and were addressed in Lisbon BS please). Momentum will gather amongst the plebs if any radical move is made against Ireland. This could go many ways....not just the 4 outcomes listed above. This could lead to radical change in Europe.

sink

murphaph wrote: »

Any of the above 'radical' processes will highlight even more that the EU project does not tolerate dissent from the plebs. The french plebs and the dutch plebs and the irish plebs al said no and a 'way' has been found to totally ignore their wishes (don't give me the old "the french and dutch were asked what the problems were and were addressed in Lisbon BS please). Momentum will gather amongst the plebs if any radical move is made against Ireland. This could go many ways....not just the 4 outcomes listed above. This could lead to radical change in Europe.

Any of those scenarios would only arise after a significant period of Ireland procrastinating and sitting on it's hands by which stage the patience of the plebs not just the politicians on mainland Europe might have run out of patience with us. We are far more likely to come to some sort of arrangement such as complete opt-outs of CFSP and JHA before then.

However I cannot nor can the experts see any possible way to get a better deal from Europe than the one that's on the table now. Every other option sees us loose influence and power while gaining very little that's tangible. The status quo cannot and will not exist for any length of time, not when there are so many pushing for change.

Furious-Dave

ionix5891 wrote: »

There wont be a renogitation of the treaty, out of all the possible outcomes outlines in the pdf posted previously this is the least likely

as that would mean another decade of negotiations (for which none of the other countries have appetite for) and ireland not getting as good as deal as we have shown our cards and shown our middle finger

I think to say that we've given our middle finger without even looking what we're giving it at would be more accurate

Man we're so screwed! Funny, there's those totalitarian ideas coming into my head again