Drinking in UCD

roadwars

Short story, was sitting in my car in UCD with a few mates drinking (I wasn’t they were). Anyway in my sober state I turn the music up quite loud and see how long it takes them to cop on ( I got it fairly loud). So next thing the security men come over.
Now I admit I was in the wrong for having the music too loud but they made all my mates get out of the car and empty their drink. Then threatened me with having my reg taken and the police being called. They even blocked me in with their land cruiser so I couldn’t drive away and searched the car which I know is ILLEGAL, even the police have to suspect you of having drugs before they can do this.
I could be wrong about this but I thought that
1 you are allowed to have passengers drinking in the car
2 your car is private property
So all I want to know is what would the police have said if they called them and is it true that your car is no longer private property when in UCD?

Donald-Duck

roadwars wrote: »

Short story, was sitting in my car in UCD with a few mates drinking (I wasn’t they were). Anyway in my sober state I turn the music up quite loud and see how long it takes them to cop on ( I got it fairly loud). So next thing the security men come over.
Now I admit I was in the wrong for having the music too loud but they made all my mates get out of the car and empty their drink. Then threatened me with having my reg taken and the police being called. They even blocked me in with their land cruiser so I couldn’t drive away and searched the car which I know is ILLEGAL, even the police have to suspect you of having drugs before they can do this.
I could be wrong about this but I thought that
1 you are allowed to have passengers drinking in the car
2 your car is private property
So all I want to know is what would the police have said if they called them and is it true that your car is no longer private property when in UCD?

You are not allowed drink on campus except for in the bars.

Peleus

ye this happened to me and my friends a while back. they all just surrounded the car. theyre like the secret service or something. I dont think they can search your car, but you cant stop and drink in it. Although if you really want to, you could drive the car around campus while your friends drink?

dyl10

I don't think it really matters whether its legal or not, at the end of the day you could have told them not to search your car and they couldn't do it, the consequence would just be that they/police would probably escort you off the premises and maybe you'd get reprimanded by the University. Unless they physically forced you out of the way and searched your car then they didn't do anything illegal. That being said, if they blocked your car in and stopped you from leaving the campus without being searched, that most definitely is illegal.

You are on UCD grounds, so I suppose it comes down to you obeying their By-laws while you are on the campus or don't come on to the campus at all

Riamfada

They cannot search your car. Only the Gardai have the power to do that. Gardai and secret police forces like the SA . Please raise this with the students union and UCD. If anyone from security tried to search my car id be onto the PSA because UCD will prob not listen to you.

dyl10

Grimes wrote: »

They cannot search your car. Only the Gardai have the power to do that. Gardai and secret police forces like the SA .

But the point is, although they can't legally force search your car, if they ask you to let them search your car and you refuse, I'm sure they are entitled to kick you off campus.

Ordinary/security people can't legally search you if you don't want them to, but if you don't let them search your handbag before entering a nightclub they'll just refuse you admission.
There's a big difference between a force search carried out by the police and cooperating with security guards in allowing them to search you to prove you are not violating their by-laws.

I'm sure the OP could have said "no" and security wouldn't have searched.
The result of course being that the OP would be escorted off the campus

noodler

I thought it was illegal to have anyone drinking in a car.

Defo illegal to do it on UCD grounds anyway.

Riamfada

Im more worried about the fact that security are searching cars at all. Their presence on campus is static rentacop security. Security guards/bouncers/concert ushers have no more power than if I were to search your personal posessions . They cannot physically touch you and must call the UCD DM if you request it. If they dont they are in breech of security legislation. I would also ask to see each security guards Door Supervisor Licence if they approach you, if they refuse make a formal compaint to the gardai and not to UCD.

Will be very interested to see how these guys act in the second semester.

noodler

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment. They have to police around 20,000+ students. Half of them like the OP here think its okay to park their car, blare music and drink on campus.

I was under the impression they could physically remove you from somewhere if you were being a nuisance just like in a nightclub.

The ones hired specifically for events and gigs etc seem to be the worst-it is like they have no experience doing the job and are not aware of what they are allowed/not allowed to do.

Anyway, I guess I just want it bore in mind that handling crowds of drunk, rowdy students is a difficult job-anyone who has ever worked in a pub/club will always be amazed how stupid people can get when they've had a few-something that becomes even more painfully obvious when you are stone cold sober.

I concur that I can't see why they thought they would be allowed to search anyone who is not in the queue for the Student Bar.

Riamfada

Well bouncers in clubs touching you at all is a grey area after those lads murdered the bloke they flung out of Judge Roy Beans when his head hit the kerb. After that (and noting that the industry is/was controlled by criminal gangs and paramilitaries) they introducted a DSP licence. Everyone who works in the security industry must hold this licence. I worked in security and was advised never to physically remove someone from a pub. I did once and as soon as we got outside he started going on about he head he hit on the way out... tit.

Secondly Pulse supplies security to UCD, FAI and the Gaiety. So the bloke who refuses you in random pub and the guy who checks your ticket at an Ireland match and the tough security in UCD could be the same person. None of these people are allowed touch you or search you without your permission.

The OP was listening to v.loud music and drinking. Security should have warned them before conducting what can only be described as comparable to a garda drugs bust.

As I have said I worked in the industry and met a significant ammount of egos and power trips. Its the only pleasure in a job where you are hated . Im going to tar everyone with a big brush but I found that its a job where all you need is to speak basic english. After that they will take anyone.

delta_bravo

If you think what they did to you was wrong complain to ucd, nothing is going to get resolved here on this. If they did search your car, they shouldnt have done it. Probably shouldve called the gardai or escorted you off campus.

But back up your complaint if you think its serious, theres been a good few of these stories on this forum this year but in any of them i dont recall any of them saying they actually reported it.

And another thing, i really think its a bad idea to have anyone in your car consuming alcohol, even if they are a passenger

roadwars

So people drinking in your car is not allowed even thought its private property? OK i'll know for next time. I'm not going to complain because i know how it will go.
"Were you drinking on campus?"
"Well yes, but"
"Don't need to hear any more thanks, you now get xyz penalty"

noodler

roadwars wrote: »

So people drinking in your car is not allowed even thought its private property? OK i'll know for next time. I'm not going to complain because i know how it will go.
"Were you drinking on campus?"
"Well yes, but"
"Don't need to hear any more thanks, you now get xyz penalty"

I could be wrong in the following, maybe it is an American rule but I thought it was illegal to have open bottles/cans of alcohol in a car.

Your car is private property, so does that mean you can park it on someone else's private property and drink just because you are protected by a few inches of metal and plastic? Could I drink on my motorbike if I parked it in UCD?

...

roadwars

I think you are wrong and that is an American law only in some states. Could you drink on your bike? I don't know, thats a little more public than inside a car don't you think. Plus cars are designed for drinking in. Cup holders do you have those?

noodler

Some also have an ashtray. It doesn't mean you can smoke weed.

I don't own a bike, I was just pointing out the silliness of your "I can do what I want on someone else's property as long as I'm inside my car" argument.

I paraphrased, I admit.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

noodler wrote: »

I could be wrong in the following, maybe it is an American rule but I thought it was illegal to have open bottles/cans of alcohol in a car.

Your car is private property, so does that mean you can park it on someone else's private property and drink just because you are protected by a few inches of metal and plastic? Could I drink on my motorbike if I parked it in UCD?

...

Actually since UCD is private property, you are allowed to be as drunk as you want and drive as far as I know, they're not public roads.

Those in charge of UCD can ask you too leave however.

You can drink in a car, provided you have the permission of those in charge. You don't.

noodler

Are you telling me it is not illegal to drink and drive in UCD?

I think thats a misinterpretation.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

noodler wrote: »

Are you telling me it is not illegal to drink and drive in UCD?

I think thats a misinterpretation.

Well if the land is deemed to be 'open' to the general public, then the RTA may apply, but if it's deemed 'private' then yes. You'd probably get kicked out of the university for it though.

If you own a field or whatever, you can drive a car in whatever state you like in it.

/edit: just cehecked the rta, seems it might apply after all: "public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

roadwars

I was not saying I can do what I want, I was saying that I can do something that is not against the law in the privacy of my own car. If UCD regulations supersede private property rules then I wont do it again simple. So can i get changed in my car for example or is that indecent exposure? (I know it sounds like I live out of my car car but I really dont)

delta_bravo

roadwars wrote: »

So people drinking in your car is not allowed even thought its private property? OK i'll know for next time. I'm not going to complain because i know how it will go.
"Were you drinking on campus?"
"Well yes, but"
"Don't need to hear any more thanks, you now get xyz penalty"

UCD is also private property and you must abide by it's rules. If you are not going to properly pursue this you cant really complain about security being heavy handed. If what you say is true, it should be in your favour. What happened after they searched your car? Did they take note of your student card or ask you leave or just search your car?

roadwars

They told us that they should really take our cards but because it was Christmas they wouldnt, such nice guys at heart. Then they told us to leave. Call me cynical but I think that my post was a fair account of what would happen, you cant complain about people in power thats just the way life is trust me.

graduate

No doubt some sort of parking charge/restriction will come into place soon. Hopefully this will also allow the cars of people who are acting the maggot to be banned from the campus entirely.

Riamfada

graduate wrote: »

No doubt some sort of parking charge/restriction will come into place soon. Hopefully this will also allow the cars of people who are acting the maggot to be banned from the campus entirely.

lol ok

Jev/N

roadwars wrote: »

I was not saying I can do what I want, I was saying that I can do something that is not against the law in the privacy of my own car. If UCD regulations supersede private property rules then I wont do it again simple.

A car doesn't technically count as private property if it's on public property as far as I'm aware; you're pretty naive for thinking otherwise IMO!

Riamfada

Jev/N wrote: »

A car doesn't technically count as private property if it's on public property as far as I'm aware; you're pretty naive for thinking otherwise IMO!

By your logic UCD staff could help themselves to my car and the contents of it whenever they want

Donald-Duck

roadwars wrote: »

Short story, was sitting in my car in UCD with a few mates drinking (I wasn’t they were). Anyway in my sober state I turn the music up quite loud and see how long it takes them to cop on ( I got it fairly loud). So next thing the security men come over.
Now I admit I was in the wrong for having the music too loud but they made all my mates get out of the car and empty their drink. Then threatened me with having my reg taken and the police being called. They even blocked me in with their land cruiser so I couldn’t drive away and searched the car which I know is ILLEGAL, even the police have to suspect you of having drugs before they can do this.
I could be wrong about this but I thought that
1 you are allowed to have passengers drinking in the car
2 your car is private property
So all I want to know is what would the police have said if they called them and is it true that your car is no longer private property when in UCD?

Just maybe this is why they were suspicous of you,

Browney7

Apologies if I'm going off topic but can the Guards search your car without a warrant?

Riamfada

Browney7 wrote: »

Apologies if I'm going off topic but can the Guards search your car without a warrant?

yes

roadwars

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Just maybe this is why they were suspicous of you,

I said it was my fault they came over if you read the whole thing, it was what they did when they came over that I wanted to get some answers on. E.g made us all get out of the car, empty the drink, Threaten to call the police and take my reg.

roadwars

Jev/N wrote: »

A car doesn't technically count as private property if it's on public property as far as I'm aware; you're pretty naive for thinking otherwise IMO!

My house is on a private road, is my house not private property?

Donald-Duck

roadwars wrote: »

My house is on a private road, is my house not private property?

Your car isn't a house.

roadwars

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Your car isn't a house.

But it is private property

Thomas_S_Hunterson

roadwars wrote: »

But it is private property

It is your property but it is not 'private property', it is not land as such

Donny5

dyl10 wrote: »

I don't think it really matters whether its legal or not, at the end of the day you could have told them not to search your car and they couldn't do it, the consequence would just be that they/police would probably escort you off the premises and maybe you'd get reprimanded by the University. Unless they physically forced you out of the way and searched your car then they didn't do anything illegal. That being said, if they blocked your car in and stopped you from leaving the campus without being searched, that most definitely is illegal.

You are on UCD grounds, so I suppose it comes down to you obeying their By-laws while you are on the campus or don't come on to the campus at all

That's an odd one, really, since UCD doesn't have signs on all entrances proclaiming that you must obey it's by-laws, which are just rules and not actual laws.

noodler wrote: »

I thought it was illegal to have anyone drinking in a car.

Defo illegal to do it on UCD grounds anyway.

If it's not illegal in public, it's not illegal in UCD. It may be against the rules, but not illegal.

noodler wrote: »

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment. They have to police around 20,000+ students. Half of them like the OP here think its okay to park their car, blare music and drink on campus.

I was under the impression they could physically remove you from somewhere if you were being a nuisance just like in a nightclub.

The ones hired specifically for events and gigs etc seem to be the worst-it is like they have no experience doing the job and are not aware of what they are allowed/not allowed to do.

Anyway, I guess I just want it bore in mind that handling crowds of drunk, rowdy students is a difficult job-anyone who has ever worked in a pub/club will always be amazed how stupid people can get when they've had a few-something that becomes even more painfully obvious when you are stone cold sober.

I concur that I can't see why they thought they would be allowed to search anyone who is not in the queue for the Student Bar.

Being searched by private security without consent is illegal. They're just citizen's (if even that) and only have those rights. Certainly a non-citizen has no right to detain you other than to prevent an assualt.

roadwars

Sean_K wrote: »

It is your property but it is not 'private property', it is not land as such

It is private property as I own it not the state

Donald-Duck

roadwars wrote: »

It is private property as I own it not the state

Then your clothes are property so they shouldn't be allowed search you while you're in them

roadwars

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Then your clothes are property so they shouldn't be allowed search you while you're in them

They can’t search you they’re not the police. I presume the next thing your going to say is “well they search bags going into clubs". If you’re going into a club and they search your bag, you can say no but then they won’t let you into the club.

timmywex

Donny5 wrote: »

Certainly a non-citizen has no right to detain you other than to prevent an assualt.

Or a citizens arrest...!

Donny5

timmywex wrote: »

Or a citizens arrest...!

I believe non-citizens are unable to perform citizen's arrests.

Riamfada

Donny5 wrote: »

I believe non-citizens are unable to perform citizen's arrests.

Take that illegal immigrants!

Jev/N

Both Grimes and roadwars, do you have much knowledge of the law, particularly criminal law??

Your private home has a totally different representation in terms of the law due to the provision in the constitution, and thus various statutory provisions, of inviolability of the dwelling.

A car it would appear is not afforded the same status, unless you can claim you live in your car and it is your dwelling.

As I previously stated, your car doesn't qualify as strictly private property so you cannot drink, have sex etc. within it while the vehicle is on public property or, in the case of UCD, you're conduct will have to comply to the student code, rules etc. along with the normal statutory provisions

The search was illegal, I'm not disputing that, but your attitude that it's "private property" and the idea that you can essentially do whatever you like in your car, as if you were in your home, is absurd.

ferdi

roadwars wrote: »

So people drinking in your car is not allowed even thought its private property? OK i'll know for next time. I'm not going to complain because i know how it will go.
"Were you drinking on campus?"
"Well yes, but"
"Don't need to hear any more thanks, you now get xyz penalty"

well if you want to get pedantic about it (and I often do) then you were not drinking and I very much doubt that ucd have a bye-law making you responsible for what your friends do in your car. the rentacops had no right to to search your car and you should have offered to call the police for them. i've seen them using their milf-mobiles to block in cars before, this should also be tackled with a call to the police. if nobody calls them on their BS "powers" then the student population of ucd will continue to be abused by these people.

Tayto2000

Searching the car was illegal, unless the owner gave consent.

Drinking in carparks is against UCD's own rules and it comes under the intoxicating liquor act now as well, calling the gardai is likely to result in getting your drink seized under the new public order provisions.

noodler

ferdi wrote: »

well if you want to get pedantic about it (and I often do) then you were not drinking and I very much doubt that ucd have a bye-law making you responsible for what your friends do in your car. the rentacops had no right to to search your car and you should have offered to call the police for them. i've seen them using their milf-mobiles to block in cars before, this should also be tackled with a call to the police. if nobody calls them on their BS "powers" then the student population of ucd will continue to be abused by these people.

I'd say you have a degree of responsibility for what people do in your car tbh.

It is illegal to drink in public to whoever said it was not.

Riamfada

noodler wrote: »

I'd say you have a degree of responsibility for what people do in your car tbh.

It is illegal to drink in public to whoever said it was not.

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

noodler

Grimes wrote: »

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

Since you were here since the beginning of the thread, I find it surprising that you would ask that.

So for around the third time, no.

Tayto2000

Grimes wrote: »

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

Where has this been said? No one has suggested that they had any right to carry out a search.

Drinking in a carpark is illegal. The search was illegal. One doesn't justify the other, they're separate issues. What seems to be in question now is whether sitting in a car to drink gets around UCDs rules and the intoxicating liquor act. Without a legal background, I'm still going to guess no to both.

Riamfada

Sorry gents, there appears to be two topics going on here. Yes I assume its illegal to have open alcohol in your car and Im pretty sure its illegal to be drinking in a car even if you do not intend to drive it. Im certainly not disagreeing that the OP was in the wrong, legally.

delta_bravo

This is going nowhere, as expected

bnt

delta_bravo wrote: »

This is going nowhere, as expected

As expected, as you say. Want to know what I think? No? Well, you don't have to read the following if you don't want to.

I have no involvement in the original incident, and only know what I've read here. All I get from these descriptions are failures of common sense on every side.
- sitting in a car, drinking? Fail.
- attracting attention by turning up the music? Fail.
- Security taking it on themselves to search the car, without clearly asking permission: Fail.
= Summary: Fail, on both sides.

So?

When you have to fall back on your "rights", it's already too late. It starts sounding like something from a Monty Python sketch: "Help! I'm being repressed!" The situation should never have gotten to that state in the first place. Fail.

When Security people have to deal with a situation, they do not have time to agonise over exactly what they can or can not do. If you tell them "I wasn't drinking", do you think they would believe you, assuming they even care? Shut it down, ask questions later - that is what Security does, by nature. I don't know what the letter of the law says regarding car searches, and I don't think that's the answer here, anyway.

Whatever "rights" you have as a student, you are there at the pleasure of the authorities, and the Student Code includes provisions about norms of behaviour (section 2) and breaches of discipline (section 6). If you try and take this further, you could find yourself up in front of UCD authorities, explaining (sections 7-10) what you were doing there, in a car on UCD property, with drink, making a noise, in violation of at least three of the rules in section 6.

The security has been appointed by UCD, and you can not expect UCD to publicly undermine their authority to deal with situations as they see fit, though I agree that UCD ought to have a private word with them about this kind of thing. Do not expect UCD to tell you "they were wrong", just so you can post it here. Learn from it, and move on. "Rights" won't keep you on as a student when you violate university rules - do you think they haven't seen it all before?

roadwars

I would like to see the law that says you cant have drink in the car when the driver isn't drinking. If you cant find one can you not presume it is legal?
Also where does it say my car isn't private property?
Could people not just sit in it and refuse to get out, as if it isn't private it must be public.