Is Cowen paralysed as Taoiseach?

kmick

When it became public knowledge that Cowen was likely to replace Ahern unopposed we got quite a bit of 'blurb' about family man, service to his country, drinks a pint, sings, and a few other tidbits. Im my mind it was a bit like Brown in the UK in that it seemed that his long service meant that he was 'due' his shot at the big mans job.

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

mike65

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.

Was the states bean counter for 4 years before he was anointed so I think he can take a fair measure of stick for the internal meltdown.

Civil disorder? In Athens, not Dublin (yet!).

Anyway to answer your question, no there is no reassurance. He is a passenger with no greater talents he could be defere to even if he wanted to.

Darragh29

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean...

This is my biggest problem with Cowen at the moment. He is like a f*cking donkey hee-hawing that everything is out of our control and we just have to wait for the storm to eventually pass, and then clean up the debris as best we can.

This is absolutely crazy and nothing less than INSANE coming from the leader of a country... From what I can see, people in this country are literally screaming out for decent leadership, but there is absolutely none. We could be rising out of this recession in 6 months flat if we had a leader who had a conviction that this was firstly possible.

I honestly want to pick up the TV and throw it through my sitting room window and out into the car park everytime I see Cowen on the TV in the Dail with a beal bocht telling us that there is nothing that we can do to lift ourselves out of this. It's f*cking insane that a man who is leading a nation in a time like this is going around with this opinion...

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

We could be rising out of this recession in 6 months flat if we had a leader who had a conviction that this was firstly possible.

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

Agreed on Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan. Cowen is ultimately responsible for the appointment of Lenihan and Coughlan.

To a large degree in business, you make your own luck and our economic problem is simply a business problem, albeit a large scale one. Businesses up and down the country are cutting their cloth to meet their circumstances, but this recession is almost one year upon us and we have a government that is now borrowing 10% for current expenditure next year!?!?!

These guys need to do their patriotic duty and leave office while there is still an economy to fix.

Dob74

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

The opposition parties are delighted to do nothing. There is no way out of this one for FF. The economy is not going to rebound anytime soon. To think if there was a FG/Lab coalition. FF would be tearing them a new one. It was the Ahern, Harney and McCreevy troika that flooded the country with cheap credit. Now the new gang will have to clean up the mess. No one is going to like the tough calls they are going to make.

DublinWriter

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

Dob74

DublinWriter wrote: »

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

+1

The nepotism in Irish politics is a joke. Its scary the amount of sons, daughters and even grandsons there are. Holding onto the same seats as there father. I think Labour should do as well as 92 in the next few elections. They were calling for regulation a few years ago and nobody was listening. Maybe the old civil war politics can be done away with.

Darragh29

DublinWriter wrote: »

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

Progress based on seniority as opposed to demonstrated ability is a well known cornerstone of public service employment in Ireland, which is why we have a public sector that is running on a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of duty and responsibility, all stitched seamlessly together by public sector unions.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

Progress based on seniority as opposed to demonstrated ability is a well known cornerstone of public service employment in Ireland, which is why we have a public sector that is running on a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of duty and responsibility, all stitched seamlessly together by public sector unions.

You are out of date on that one.

kmick

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You are out of date on that one.

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

I am even more scared that everyone seems to agree that Cowen is a dead duck. I was expecting at least a few dissenting voices in the politics forum.

As regards Lenihan and Coughlan I know as local TD's they are excellent. For example Coughlan got my sister in law a passport at short notice. On the other side of it there is no new thinking from them.

Will they go down as the worst Taoiseach and Finance Minister in living history? Historically Coughlans role was turn up, smile for cameras, cut ribbon so I was not expecting much from her anyway.

ednwireland

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

agreed with the lack of ability, mary's our td and always a lightweight. I still see no leadership from our leaders i would excpect at least a 33% pay cut until our economy recovers to 2007 levels (its what my directors are doing i am on a 3 day week from jan - less exchequer income) for all senior civil servants. pay freeze for lower end cos most of them arent on that much. cut all those junior ministers who dont do anything.
lets have a look at all those agencies i know people on huge salaries in regional agencies who do nothing (they would disagree but surely their remit is to bring work to the region and the ones i know do nothing of the sort)

i was at a meeting with mary couchlan last week and she came across as sucha lightweight stick her back on the back benches where she belongs there must be someone in FF who has a clue somewhere.

kmick

mike65 wrote: »

Civil disorder? In Athens, not Dublin (yet!).

The state has consistently failed to deal with Limerick, parts of northside Dublin, etc. Its not on an Athens scale but it is something which the public are very uneasy about. We all keep saying its all fine as long as they are shooting themselves but now we have incidents where women, kids and rugby players are getting killed.

The elephant in the room for me also is the fact that the opposition seems even worse.

meglome

Darragh29 wrote: »

I honestly want to pick up the TV and throw it through my sitting room window and out into the car park everytime I see Cowen on the TV in the Dail with a beal bocht telling us that there is nothing that we can do to lift ourselves out of this. It's f*cking insane that a man who is leading a nation in a time like this is going around with this opinion...

I'm in the same boat but it alternates to worried, then back to angry.

P. Breathnach

kmick wrote: »

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

Because there has been a huge shift to competition for promotion in most areas of public service.

There are people who have been at the same level for 20+ years. It is not necessarily the case that they are bad at their job: it can be that they are seen as not suited for a more senior position.

There are also people who have been promoted several times in a much shorter time.

Pride Fighter

Cowen looks grand, Bertie is the one paralysed with a broken leg:D

Darragh29

I think to refer to Cowen as paralysed is an affront to a person with a physical disability.

This guy isn't paralysed, he is inept and he has to go, there is no other way around this problem than for him to go while there is still an economy left to put back together again...

bill_ashmount

There is no viable alternative. Fine Gael will never get into power with their current leader.

Darragh29

bill_ashmount wrote: »

There is no viable alternative. Fine Gael will never get into power with their current leader.

To be honest, I used to think that as well, but what I'm seeing now from Cowen on the leadership front is so utterly breathtaking, that bad and all as Enda kenny is, I would consider him better than Cowen, and a year ago, I was saying that I would never vote for FG.

jmayo

kmick wrote: »

....
Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control :mad::mad::mad:
Cowen is responsible for a lot of the mess we are in today.
He is not responsible for the subprime crisis, but the fact our finances are in such cack order, that we had too many people working in non sustainable industries (construciton and retail), industries dependent on cheap credit flow is down to him and a few others.

He was a high ranking minister, he was minister for finance for 4 odd years, during which time enough people were telling them that the shi* would hit the fan someday soon.
Oh except those people were told they were whingers, complainers and they should go off and commit sucide.

Did he not continue policies that kept the great property boom going ?
Did he ever rain in all the financial incentives to developers to develop under section this, that and the other ?
Did he try and rain in public sector spending ?
Did he not preside over a department that based a large chunk of their income stream on the property bubble continuing ad infinitum ?

And who is saying slashing government budgets is counter productive?
Let me guess the public sector per chance :rolleyes:
We cannot afford the public sector wage bill.

Cowen and the rest of the ffers haven't a fu**ing clue. The Spanish went back during the summer when they knew things were bad. What have we got, a finance minister that seems to have discovered we were in trouble a few months after everyother person.

As O'Leary pointed out any fool can do well in a boomand in good times, it is only the smart and those with ability that can handle things in the bad times.
This statement could describe our stale, arrogant, incompetent, devoid of rational thinking ministers.

kmick wrote: »

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

I am even more scared that everyone seems to agree that Cowen is a dead duck. I was expecting at least a few dissenting voices in the politics forum.

As regards Lenihan and Coughlan I know as local TD's they are excellent. For example Coughlan got my sister in law a passport at short notice. On the other side of it there is no new thinking from them.

You see this is the problem. Why was she getting a passport for your sister in law, does Coughlan moonlight in the department or something.
What was your sister in law doing asking a TD for a passport ?
Did she have a million or two to invest in dog food plant in Longford or something :rolleyes:

They were promoted because they are friends and loyal hanchmen/women to the new fuhrer.

kmick wrote: »

....
The elephant in the room for me also is the fact that the opposition seems even worse.

How do you know they are worse. Have they been in government since 1997 ?

ismynametoolong

Leadership comes from the top and requires certain qualities other than intelligence which Cowen obviously has. He comes across as a very ignorant
arrogant and stubborn individual which are traits that will not endear the public to him and this is probably his biggest achilles heel. A Taoiseach needs to be able to sell and carry himself with the public regardless of the problems but Cowen Lenihan and Coughlan will never be able to achieve this ! FG wont do it with Enda Kenny either . If they want Lisbon 2 to go through they need to hide this trio and D Roche of course.

Darragh29

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Leadership comes from the top and requires certain qualities other than intelligence which Cowen obviously has. He comes across as a very ignorant
arrogant and stubborn individual which are traits that will not endear the public to him and this is probably his biggest achilles heel. A Taoiseach needs to be able to sell and carry himself with the public regardless of the problems but Cowen Lenihan and Coughlan will never be able to achieve this ! FG wont do it with Enda Kenny either . If they want Lisbon 2 to go through they need to hide this trio and D Roche of course.

One thing I notice about Cowen is that everyone keeps speaking of his "unquestionable intellect". Has anyone ever seen him doing anything intelligent??? This is a myth that was propagated since Ahern was preparing him for his baptism as Taoiseach. He doesn't appear any more intelligent than anyone else and even if he was, it is useless when you cannot communicate with people and are going around with your head up your arse.

I'd rather a leader that can inspire people and for this to be possible, you have to be able to relate to people. Someone who is telling us that we have no control over this economic problem, I would argue is lacking in intelligence...

CiaranC

jmayo wrote: »

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control :mad::mad::mad:
Cowen is responsible for a lot of the mess we are in today.
He is not responsible for the subprime crisis, but the fact our finances are in such cack order, that we had too many people working in non sustainable industries (construciton and retail), industries dependent on cheap credit flow is down to him and a few others.

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

jmayo

CiaranC wrote: »

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

I would Yes and No to the last point.
They have to be proactive (I hate using this word) about cutting spending. They have to cut their own minister numbers and salaries. Then they can say they are leading by example and go hit the public sector wage bill.
And I don't mean cutting nurses, gardai, teachers or doctors.

They have to be proactive about the banks.
They need to push them rather than letting the banks be in control.
They need to part nationalise any bank that takes their money.
No ifs or buts about it.
The banks' top echelon need to be all removed, no golden handshake just a good kick in the ar**.
The top circle in Central Bank need to go, the financial regulator gone.

Most people would say that Anglo is in biggest trouble.
What would happen if they were to go to the wall and the government focus their resources on the others ?
In other words what I am asking is how much of a hit would the Irish economy take if they went ?

The government have to make a decision, there may not be enough room in the lifeboat for everyone. Who is worth saving ?

The fact the minister for finance is coming out with some ludicrous statements like asking people to be patriotic and that he only discovered how bad things were in July or at least later than most people, only adds to the feeling that they are just inept and haven't a fu**ing clue.

By sitting back and having a wait and see approach means that the ship of state appears rudderless and it just adds to the lack of confidence in Ireland Inc.

kmick

CiaranC wrote: »

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

The property bubble was created by cheap money (EU), lowering the bar for access to finance (Banks), Tax Breaks (Government) and the Irish love of property possession.

CiaranC wrote:

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control

I am not a FFer - dont have any political affiliations at all.

P. Breathnach

kmick wrote: »

The property bubble was created by cheap money (EU), lowering the bar for access to finance (Banks), Tax Breaks (Government) and the Irish love of property possession.

I think that is broadly true. We even had the irony that a significant part of the demand for property was for those who came in to work in building to meet the demand.

But when we have cheap money and a liberal lending policy fuelling demand to the point where the market becomes distorted and prices inflate seriously out of line with the rest of the economy, it is the role of government to temper it, not to add to it.

LostinBlanch

Darragh29 wrote: »

One thing I notice about Cowen is that everyone keeps speaking of his "unquestionable intellect". Has anyone ever seen him doing anything intelligent??? This is a myth that was propagated since Ahern was preparing him for his baptism as Taoiseach. He doesn't appear any more intelligent than anyone else and even if he was, it is useless when you cannot communicate with people and are going around with your head up your arse.

Agreed, we keep on hearing about his supposed intelligence. It's just a case of repeat something enough times and some will eventually believe it. Mind you I can see where Bertie would regard him as intelligent if his competition was the likes of Willie O'Dea

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd rather a leader that can inspire people and for this to be possible, you have to be able to relate to people. Someone who is telling us that we have no control over this economic problem, I would argue is lacking in intelligence...

Seriously Cowen has been found out big time, it's a hell of a change from all his cant about the fundamentals of the economy are sound. As for intelligence, I would say one of the measures of intelligence is how well someone adapts to changing cirumstances.

Darragh29

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Agreed, we keep on hearing about his supposed intelligence. It's just a case of repeat something enough times and some will eventually believe it. Mind you I can see where Bertie would regard him as intelligent if his competition was the likes of Willie O'Dea



Seriously Cowen has been found out big time, it's a hell of a change from all his cant about the fundamentals of the economy are sound. As for intelligence, I would say one of the measures of intelligence is how well someone adapts to changing cirumstances.

He was the same in Health when he was minister there, constantly going around with a beal bocht saying that action was out of his hands and up to consultants and nurses and doctors and everyone but himself. He ended up demanding a change in portfolio because he couldn't handle health, and left that department with every single sector of workers in the health sector either actively on strike or imminently threatening a strike. This is a capable intelligent agent of change that we now have running the country?!?!?!?!

lostexpectation

its global issues people :P

bmaxi

When you have a look at the qualifications the trio at the top of Government have, to be where they are, it gives some indication as to what is inherently wrong with Irish politics.

Cowen............ inherited Daddy's seat.
Lenihan.......... inherited Daddy's seat.
Coughlan....... inherited Daddy's seat.

The other day the Channel Island of Sark was described as the last refuge of feudalism in Europe, how wrong they were.
Until the Irish electorate cop on and start electing their representatives for their ability rather than their lineage we are going to continue to be plagued with gobsh***s like these.
Cowen so far has been an absolute disaster for the country. He runs around like a headless chicken rather than stand and face reality. He is over kissing Sarkozy's and Barrosa's a*ses when he should be here attempting to sort the sorry mess he and his equally incompetent cabinet have created.
No point hiding behind the " It's a world wide problem line", the bulk of Ireland's problems are homegrown and he and his mates sowed the seed.

CiaranC

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But when we have cheap money and a liberal lending policy fuelling demand to the point where the market becomes distorted and prices inflate seriously out of line with the rest of the economy, it is the role of government to temper it, not to add to it.

Bingo

jdivision

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus.

Eh, he was minister for finance during a lot of that. He wasted billions. He's had one hard job in his life - department of health - and he ran away from it. The guy's useless.

Darsad

The Lenihan brothers really take the biscuit !
I cant believe the state pays to transport both these muppets around I was so disappointed when the one ( Conor ) who sounds like his auty held on to his seat by the narrowest of margins

P. Breathnach

bmaxi wrote: »

Cowen............ inherited Daddy's seat.
Lenihan.......... inherited Daddy's seat.
Coughlan....... inherited Daddy's seat.

The didn't inherit seats. They ran for election, and were successful.

It's not fair to blame them for being feckless. They ran on a manifesto of fecklessness, and the voters chose that.

bmaxi

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The didn't inherit seats. They ran for election, and were successful.

It's not fair to blame them for being feckless. They ran on a manifesto of fecklessness, and the voters chose that.

I intended " inherited" in a loose way and I think you know that. It is the electorate who are to blame for not being able to see further than their noses. The old adage "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", might be appropriate.

turgon

bmaxi wrote: »

I intended " inherited" in a loose way and I think you know that. It is the electorate who are to blame for not being able to see further than their noses. The old adage "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", might be appropriate.

But unfortunatly the electorate are a unfamiliar with that saying as George Bush.

Mr.Micro

According to Biffo current economic problems are beyond our control, this is the man who was Finance Minister. So what is the point of him and the Government then? I would call that paralysed. Save an awful lot of money, get rid of the Government and let the EU rule us. Can this lot get any worse? Lenihan is turning into his batty auntie Mary. The long christmas break could not come soon enough for me as we will be spared, hopefully, any more musings of our wise Taoiseach for a month or so. Its a times like this that I long for Bertie.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its a times like this that I long for Bertie.

Hey, things are bad, but they're not that bad.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Hey, things are bad, but they're not that bad.

Well at least Bertie would spin a yarn or two and not throw the towel in from the start. It hardly inspires one to try to get through this if the Taoiseach does not do his bit,even if it is just to boost morale, instead its a defeatist attitude, and I would really question Mr.Cowen's advisors if they advised such statements. To me it is unacceptable to say such things at this time.

AlekSmart

I don`t know about anybody else,but the overall impression of the RTE coverage of today`s Press Conference and subsequent interview with Mr Cowen was of a man who has arrived at a toll booth without any money

It is only right and proper to refer to Mr Cowen`s tenure as Minister for Finance as it was during this period that the storm clouds were really rumbling above the Midlands.

Either way the present Cabinet simply do not exude any great aura of competence and that is becoming a very worrying aspect of it all.

But as others point out we as an electorate have consistently re-elected this political generation and their fathers before them !!

Lot to be said for a constitutional Monarchy all the same ???

Bring back the High Kings I say :eek:

mike65

zootroid

kmick wrote: »

When it became public knowledge that Cowen was likely to replace Ahern unopposed we got quite a bit of 'blurb' about family man, service to his country, drinks a pint, sings, and a few other tidbits. Im my mind it was a bit like Brown in the UK in that it seemed that his long service meant that he was 'due' his shot at the big mans job.

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

My 2 cents to your points:

1) Budgets need to be cut as we cannot continue to borrow to fund the day to day running of the country. How the money is being spent leaves a lot to be desired though. Economists want to see a stimulus, such as investment in infrastructure, education etc. Cutting the budgets in these areas is counter productive.

2) Agree the pay deal should be put on hold. Always seems like pay increases for the sake of it. Don't think the country can afford it now. And I've never seen any evidence of increases in productivity because of it.

3) I agree about the taxes, increasing taxes across the board will not help the economy. The government needs to be smarter in how it spends its money, so that tax increases to balance the books are not necessary

4) The financial institutions are in trouble, the share price alone should tell you that. The fact that something like 90% has been wiped from their market capitalisation since the crisis began says it all.

5) In my opinion the Lisbon treaty needs to pass. I don't think the EU can operate as a trading block as effectively without it. I was surprised when it didn't pass, and when I heard the rubbish being spouted by the no camp (it will lead to abortion, legalised prostitution etc) I couldn't believe that people actually believed it.

Overall I have no sympathy for Cowen and co. For years they were warned about the over reliance on the construction industry but chose to ignore the warnings. The same thing happened in Japan and Scandanavia in the 90's, and so they can't complain to have been caught unawares or not know what the consequences would be. Even if the correct policies were put in place now, it will take a few years to reap the rewards of it. But as things stand I see nothing but dithering, from a government with no ideas on how to stop the slide.

On a side note, there are many countries around the world that are not in recession, eg Australia, so to blame the recession on global factors outside our control is simply not true. The credit crunch contributed to our downfall, but no more so than ourselves

Darragh29

zootroid wrote: »

My 2 cents to your points:

2) Agree the pay deal should be put on hold. Always seems like pay increases for the sake of it. Don't think the country can afford it now. And I've never seen any evidence of increases in productivity because of it.

It needs to go several degrees further than a pay pause I think. The people who are represented by unions at the partnership talks are the amongst the best paid people in the country. In the case of public sector workers, they have job security and pensions that are simply unaffordable.

The problem with partnership in this country is that it isn't partnership at all. The majority of employees in this country are not represented at partnership talks, because vested interests like Ibec and the American Chamber of Commerce have prevented the government from introducing legislation that would make union recognition compulsory. Who in all seriousness is going to join a union when a union is not recognised where they work???

So we have again, a tier problem with employment in the country, with unionised employees on a minority upper tier of employees who have been getting whatever they have asked for, for years now, and then you have a large number of lower tier empoyees who have never been represented through partnership.

What we need is a 10% pay cut for people who are represented at the partnership talks. Some semi state organisations have been utterly protected and spoilt for years now, Irish Rail, ESB, Dublin Bus, etc. The employees of these organisations, with militant unions that have people in low skilled jobs on 70K a year and upwards, need to be brought down to reality with a bang.

I've a mate who is a train driver and I honestly don't believe some of the stories he tells me about where he works. They have a back up driver to a scheduled driver if a scheduled driver calls in sick and they have a second back up driver to the main back up, in case the back up driver to the main driver calls in sick!?!?!?!

He isn't a bit worried about the recession, he's on completely stupid money (70K plus) and has as much overtime as he wants. This is the type of mentality that is bedded in at partnership level... Why in all that is holy would you give anyone in this situation a pay increase???

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

...

The problem with partnership in this country is that it isn't partnership at all. The majority of employees in this country are not represented at partnership talks, because vested interests like Ibec and the American Chamber of Commerce have prevented the government from introducing legislation that would make union recognition compulsory. Who in all seriousness is going to join a union when a union is not recognised where they work???

...
What we need is a 10% pay cut for people who are represented at the partnership talks. Some semi state organisations have been utterly protected and spoilt for years now, Irish Rail, ESB, Dublin Bus, etc. The employees of these organisations, with militant unions that have people in low skilled jobs on 70K a year and upwards, need to be brought down to reality with a bang.
...

Agree on the fact that public sector heavily unionised workers have been given anything they want just to be quiet.
Also agree that some public sector workers need kick in ar** and need to appreciate fact they have secruity of tenure and great DB pensions.
Thus they need to pay more tax or have less wages than private sector workers without these benefits.

Do not agree that everywhere should have a union.
Get aunion in the door and if you get a militant shopstewart then the company is f***ed.
Force foreign multinationals to accept unions and you will either get them to close and move elsewhere or else they will not invest in the first place.

Historically moderm technology companies do not have unionsied employees and that is probably one reason they have been successful and have pushed forward.
Look at industries that had heavy unionsed employees, e.g car industry, which is in a mess worldwide, particularly in the US and the Uk one no longer exists because of unions.

Most foreign multiantionals in this country would be excellent employers and they rather keep their employees happy than have a union in the place.

If you think unions are the solution rather than the problem then you are sorely mistaken.
If anything the unions need to be broken, ala Thatcher.

Yeah unionise everyone and we can all be on the dole.
Smart move.

kmick

zootroid wrote: »

On a side note, there are many countries around the world that are not in recession, eg Australia, so to blame the recession on global factors outside our control is simply not true. The credit crunch contributed to our downfall, but no more so than ourselves

The Australian banks are heavily regulated and this has helped them escape the worst of the recession. My mates working there tell me in the last 3 month it is very hard to get work so I guess its starting to bite over there.

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

Do not agree that everywhere should have a union.
Get aunion in the door and if you get a militant shopstewart then the company is f***ed.
Force foreign multinationals to accept unions and you will either get them to close and move elsewhere or else they will not invest in the first place.

Historically moderm technology companies do not have unionsied employees and that is probably one reason they have been successful and have pushed forward.
Look at industries that had heavy unionsed employees, e.g car industry, which is in a mess worldwide, particularly in the US and the Uk one no longer exists because of unions.

Most foreign multiantionals in this country would be excellent employers and they rather keep their employees happy than have a union in the place.

If you think unions are the solution rather than the problem then you are sorely mistaken.
If anything the unions need to be broken, ala Thatcher.

Yeah unionise everyone and we can all be on the dole.
Smart move.

I only think that union recognition should be compulsory because of one experience I had working for a large multinational in this country. No promotional opportunities were advertised, everything was jobs for the boys, no matter what qualifications or experience you had, you would not even know a vacancy existed. The first you would know there was an opportunity for promotion was when the guy you worked with on a Friday came into work as your new manager the following Monday. This kind of corruption is what you will inevitably get when you have closed workplaces that are shut off from the outside world. You would be amazed at how some of the large multinational organisations in Ireland actually operate. Thing's that unionised workplaces take for granted like advertising vacancies where you work, and a modest annual payrise, don't exist in some of the biggest organisations in the country.

Having said that, maybe unions are not the answer, maybe much stronger legislation is the answer. Personally I'd prefer to deal directly with my employer. But there is a serious problem in this kip with vested interests like Ibec and The American Chamber of Commerce blocking progress on social justice issues like fair employment rules. Look at the LRC (Labour Relations Commission), you can take an employer to the LRC, your employer doesn't have to turn up, if you win your case, the recommendation doesn't have to be acccepted by your employer, they can wipe their arse with the recommendation and then flush it away without a consequence in the world.

DublinWriter

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don`t know about anybody else,but the overall impression of the RTE coverage of today`s Press Conference and subsequent interview with Mr Cowen was of a man who has arrived at a toll booth without any money

Nice analogy.

I heard his speech, then Harney's, they Gormley's and then I started internally panicking, flipping through their 90-page document thinking to myself "no one is at the f*cking wheel anymore".

They are almost a couple of league points under Robert Mugabe in terms of delusional aspirations.

Tableman

His constant referral to Fine Gael with the line "Well, if you lot were in charge, things would be a whole lot worse" or something with that gist is getting very tiring. Fianna Fail have been in power for so long that I dont really see how they can be coming with that kind of stuff.

AlekSmart

As I see it the period 2009-2012 will be pivotal for this country.

It is now somewhat frighteningly apparent that the present Cabinet do not actually have a functional degree of control over the direction our Country is headed.

I am aware that we are members of the European Union and as such we have signed up willingly to a set of protocols which impose a certain level of discipline upon us all.

Events elsewhere in Europe,Belgium being a good example do however show a marked difference in how our native political culture operates.

The Fortis Bank scandal has brought down the present Government in Belgium,with only the Kings wishes maintaining a caretaker Government.

I would argue that on the Belgian scale,events here over the past 12 months would have merited the Taoiseach and his Cabinet being drawn through the streets in a tumbril before a rendezvous with Madame Guillotine.

It is not merely the scale of the "delusional aspirations" which terrify me,but the extent to which the entire business of managing a functional democracy appears to have ceased.

Much of this cessation appears to be a direct result of the manner in which our Parliamentary system operates.

By far and away the best debate and most cutting investigative work I have come across has been done at Dàil Committee level which sadly then is left at that with no means of transferring that impetus to the Legislature itself.

The current desperate situation really should be focussing strong attention on the entirety of Ireland Inc`s collapse rather than merely picking the "Public Service" issue and doing it to death.

There are few countries which operate without a Public Service,indeed most that do also have a degree of inner angst about the public vs private arguement,BUT,they don`t allow that to stifle debate or movement on other areas also.

Take the home of Capitalism itself.
Does anybody seriously think that America Ltd operates as a totally market driven,privately run democracy?

Well those that did got a tremendous kick up the transom (remember that) this week as Uncle Sam effectively nationalizes Motor City itself.
This after virtually doing the same thing with vast swathes of its banking and homeloan sectors also.

Here in Ireland Plc we have interminable gut wrenching arguement over the evils of Public Service and the truly massive benefits which will be available to all once the Public Service is Privatized.

Few appear to realize that what the Public Sector has always lacked in Ireland is any form of serious policy direction from those whose policies it was tasked with implimenting.

This Political ill or non will has been characterized by a phenomonal over reliance on (Expensive) self fulfilling Consultants Reports,Reviews and Strategy Documents,none of which have made much sense considering the system which exists.

As of now the reality is that vast amounts of public funds have simply disappeared,with no explaination as to where it went.
The general reasoning is that the World economic collapse took all of Paddy`s funds with it,but I am somewhat less prepared to simply accept that and slink away.

What we now have is a country and its people who have been hoodwinked and allowed to become lazy and dependant to an extent only truly appreciated by those who have lived on mainland Europe or perhaps in the USA itslef.

In decades to come we may witness the airbrushing of mssrs Cowen,Harney,Aherne from our history altogether as their contributions will be seen as the ending of an independent Irish existence.:o

Darragh29

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is now somewhat frighteningly apparent that the present Cabinet do not actually have a functional degree of control over the direction our Country is headed.

I agree that it is nothing less than frightening at what we are now seeing. I think Eamon Gilmore, although I wouldn't vote for him on the basis of what I've seen to date, started something this week when he tackled the government on this very issue but he failed to follow through on what he was saying on the basis that he felt that if he did, it would cause "further damage". Well guess what Eamon, not saying what you have to say is what is really going to cause the damage. Staying in this hopeless situation is what is going to ultimately cause us the most damage.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am aware that we are members of the European Union and as such we have signed up willingly to a set of protocols which impose a certain level of discipline upon us all.

Well you would think so. But this recession is barely upon us, we're not even 6 months into this and already, we are looking at being 200% above and beyond our 3% GDP deficit limit imposed by the EU's Stability and Growth Pact (SGP).

bmaxi

By far the most frightening thing IMO is, trawl through the front bench, even the back benches of the Government parties and try and spot somebody who would give you some confidence. I've tried and I can't.