Goblet of Fire - Thought occured to me about why it doesn't make sense

watna

ok, I was watching the goblet of fire film last night and it got me thining about the plot.

Voldemort and Barty Crouch Junior go through this huge scheme to get Harry alone so they can take his blood and Voldemort can regenerate.

Why was the whole tri-wizard tournament necessary? Barty Crouch as Moody was alone with Harry loads of times during the year. Surely he could have, say, imperiused him and marched him out of Hogwarts, disapparated with him and taken him to Voldemort much earlier.

I've been thinking about it and possible reasons why he could't do that and that the book does make sense but I'm having a hard time convincing myself.

What do you think? Was the tri-wizard tournament necessary or does it not really fit the plot?

Lemming

It's a film about wizards and magic. Does it have to make much sense? :pac:

watna

Lemming wrote: »

It's a film about wizards and magic. Does it have to make much sense? :pac:

Not really - but my warped mind is stuck on this now!

Crumble Froo

i can't remember the exact reasoning... but it was mentioned in the book, and responded to. unfortunately, all my harry potter books are in irealnd, and i can't reference them.

but that was brought up in the book.

watna

Crumble Froo wrote: »

i can't remember the exact reasoning... but it was mentioned in the book, and responded to. unfortunately, all my harry potter books are in irealnd, and i can't reference them.

but that was brought up in the book.

Hmm, my HP books are all in Ireland too but I've read them dozens of times and I've no recollection of any mention of why they had to wait until the end of the tri-wizard thingy to take him.

The plot thickens......

Faith

Alrighty, I'm having a think about this (I just reread book no.7 and it reminded me of how much I love Harry Potter!)...

Are we sure the Triwizard competition was held specifically to get Harry, or did the baddies just work it into their plans? Half of my HP books are in Ireland too, so I can't check.

Maybe "Moody" didn't want to rouse suspicion by marching Harry off the grounds?

Hmm, I don't know, I'll think this over and get back to you.

eVeNtInE

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Scarinae

It has been a while since I read the books, but from what I remember the Triwizard tournament was already arranged and Voldemort just exploited it for his plans. Bertha Jorkins, a ministry official, bumped into Wormtail in a pub in Albania - he overpowered her and brought her to Voldemort. Because she worked for the Department of Magical Games and Sports (I remember this because Ludo Bagman was head of the department and was meant to be looking for her, but he just figured she'd got lost) she would have been able to tell Voldemort all about the upcoming Triwizard tournament. Also, as is revealed at the end of the book when Crouch Jr/fake Moody is being interrogated with veritaserum, she was the one who told Voldemort that Crouch Jr was being held by his father to stop him seeking out his old master. I guess Voldemort got these two useful pieces of information at the same time and used them both for his plan.

As for why JK invented the triwizard tournament at all, it was probably just an idea she'd had that she thought would be pretty cool to write about, you have to admit that it is fairly inventive. It also allowed her to introduce new characters, some of whom were useful for plot development later on. Fleur ends up marrying Bill, Krum gives an important clue about the mark of the Deathly Hallows, even the brief introduction of Gregorovitch in the weighing of the wands is important later on. Also, it expands the scope of the wizarding world beyond Britain - before the fourth book, there wasn't much mention of international wizardry, but accepting stuff about other countries and wizarding paves the way for the Grindelwald plotline.

Blue-Eyed

While you're at it! Think about this...Okay. 5th book. It was said that Voldemort couldn't just march into the Ministry to get the..Divination thing-a-ma-jig! Right? Now that's true. But how was he able to just appear into the Ministry to fight for it later?

I just re-read the books, and I don't think that was answered! :eek:

If it was then I'm just talking gibberish...

-Blue- :cool:

JaneyMc

I was under the impression that Voldemort could not touch the prophecy and he needed Harry to pick it up.

Blue-Eyed

Well the prophecy was about Harry and Voldemort..so both of them could have gotten it. So why didn't Voldemort just get the prophecy himself?

Crumble Froo

Blue-Eyed wrote: »

While you're at it! Think about this...Okay. 5th book. It was said that Voldemort couldn't just march into the Ministry to get the..Divination thing-a-ma-jig! Right? Now that's true. But how was he able to just appear into the Ministry to fight for it later?

I just re-read the books, and I don't think that was answered! :eek:

If it was then I'm just talking gibberish...

-Blue- :cool:

voldemort *could*... but didnt want to reveal himself. he was forced to fighting for it ...

JaneyMc wrote: »

I was under the impression that Voldemort could not touch the prophecy and he needed Harry to pick it up.

Blue-Eyed wrote: »

Well the prophecy was about Harry and Voldemort..so both of them could have gotten it. So why didn't Voldemort just get the prophecy himself?

voldemort didnt know that. only part of the prophecy was overheard, and again, he didnt wana show his face in the ministry.

watna

Hmm, I wasn’t saying that Voldemort organised the tri-wizard, as was said so eloquently above it was just used by him after hearing about it from Bertha Jorkins. I just think that the whole thing seems a bit unecessary if you think about it. As Barty Crouch was on the premises the whole year I just thought if Voldemort wanted to come back he could have done it earlier by removing him – although yes, it might have been more risky. I guess the points raised above are the real reason – as it is an interesting storyline and introduced important characters.

My mind goes in strange directions sometimes!

EamonnKeane

"
Why is the plot to kidnap Harry so convoluted?
EditHistoryDelete

This is the most common criticism of the plot of both novel and film. It is never explained in either why Crouch Jr. (in his disguise as Moody) could not simply have turned one of Harry's books (for example) into a Portkey and sent him to Voldemort in that way, rather than entering him in the Triwizard Tournament and helping him in the tasks so that he would touch the cup-Portkey first.

The most likely explanation is that Voldemort does not want it to be known - or even suspected - that he has returned to life. The unexplained disappearance of Harry Potter would place the wizarding world on high alert. The Order of the Phoenix would reform, suspected Death Eaters would likely be interned, and Voldemort would face an uphill struggle to power. But, as stated in the graveyard, he wants to kill Harry Potter in a fair fight in front of his Death Eaters to prove conclusively that he is the superior one. So he must engineer a way for Harry to vanish, and his body never to be found, yet no-one to be suspicious. The Triwizard Tournament supplied this chance.

The first task took place in full view of hundreds of people, so Crouch Jr. had to wait. The second task would give him a chance, but he knew of Dumbledore's friendship with the merpeople; if Harry were kidnapped underwater, they would know of it and tell Dumbledore. The third task takes place in a maze with no-one present but the champions, so Crouch Jr. can sabotage the other three's chances and be confident that Harry will reach the cup first. Crouch Jr. hopes that when Harry does not return, it will be assumed that one of the various monsters in the maze killed and ate him."

from imdb

There are plot holes in all the books, but they're still entertaining, it's not meant to be Tolstoy.

UrbanSea

Maybe it was because Harry had been so good fighting off the imperius curse in moody's class that he didnt try it. Also,Dumbeldore would always have kept an eye on Harry,so perhaps it would have been too risky for Moody to take him out of the grounds.

cautioner

Blue-Eyed wrote: »

While you're at it! Think about this...Okay. 5th book. It was said that Voldemort couldn't just march into the Ministry to get the..Divination thing-a-ma-jig! Right? Now that's true. But how was he able to just appear into the Ministry to fight for it later?

I just re-read the books, and I don't think that was answered! :eek:

If it was then I'm just talking gibberish...

-Blue- :cool:

One more thing. How did Harry and his merry men stroll into the most secure part of the Ministry of Magic unimpeded? Never got that. The whole place was deserted if I remember correctly.

Blue-Eyed

Also, I was thinking about the Thestrals...if Harry saw his parents (or at least his mother) being killed, wouldn't he have have seen the thestrals the first time he rode the carriages?

-Blue- :cool:

watna

Blue-Eyed wrote: »

Also, I was thinking about the Thestrals...if Harry saw his parents (or at least his mother) being killed, wouldn't he have have seen the thestrals the first time he rode the carriages?

-Blue- :cool:

I've thought that before too. Also - he goes home in the carriages after cedric dies. He's supposed to get them to get to the train that takes them back to London (I don't think they actually do this part in the book but it's the way they get back to the train every year). Should he not see the thestrals then? Why is it only when he goes back to school?

I know it's not meant to be Tolstoy but it's actually kind of fun to think about the plot holes!

quickbeam

That is the worst plot hole in the whole series and why GOF is my least favourite book. Crouch couldn't have just walked off with HP for the reasons already stated, but he certainly could have had HP touch something that was a Portkey before the final of the TriWizard Tournament and avoided the whole complicated scenario.

cautioner

watna wrote: »

I've thought that before too. Also - he goes home in the carriages after cedric dies. He's supposed to get them to get to the train that takes them back to London (I don't think they actually do this part in the book but it's the way they get back to the train every year). Should he not see the thestrals then? Why is it only when he goes back to school?

I know it's not meant to be Tolstoy but it's actually kind of fun to think about the plot holes!

I remember reading some manner of explanation from Rowling on this. Something about not just seeing the death, but having time to fully absorb it/contemplate it makes the Thestrals visible. Something along those lines.

shanegj

cautioner wrote: »

I remember reading some manner of explanation from Rowling on this. Something about not just seeing the death, but having time to fully absorb it/contemplate it makes the Thestrals visible. Something along those lines.

but did he not also see professor quirrell die

Scarinae

shanegj wrote: »

but did he not also see professor quirrell die

I don't know if that counts - he blacked out, and later when he was in hospital he found out that Professor Quirrell was left to die by Voldemort

Azhrei

Fishie wrote: »

I don't know if that counts - he blacked out, and later when he was in hospital he found out that Professor Quirrell was left to die by Voldemort

Exactly. All he saw of Quirrell was that he was turned to stone.

Scarinae

Azhrei wrote: »

Exactly. All he saw of Quirrell was that he was turned to stone.

Did Quirrell really turn to stone? I don't remember that! I just remember Harry blacking out and hearing someone calling his name

eVeNtInE

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994

Azhrei wrote: »

Exactly. All he saw of Quirrell was that he was turned to stone.

No, in the book all that happens is that Quirrell's skin burns a little (because St. Harry is so Pure and Good). Harry blacks out before he dies. And maybe he heard his mother's death, but didn't see it?

Innervision

Something else about this that's been bugging me! When Harry and Voldemort are duelling and priori incantatum happens, and the people Voldemort last killed come out of the wand starting with Cedric, how come Harry's dad comes out before Lily if he's supposed to have died first?

Blue-Eyed

Innervision wrote: »

Something else about this that's been bugging me! When Harry and Voldemort are duelling and priori incantatum happens, and the people Voldemort last killed come out of the wand starting with Cedric, how come Harry's dad comes out before Lily if he's supposed to have died first?

Well, the people come out backwards. Else Cedric would've been the last one. Harry's dad did die first, so he's after Lily!

Innervision

Blue-Eyed wrote: »

Well, the people come out backwards. Else Cedric would've been the last one. Harry's dad did die first, so he's after Lily!

I know, that's what I mean, he should come out after Lily but he doesn't, he comes out and then goes 'your mother's on the way'!

Draupnir

Rowling has already said that she made a mistake when writing the Priori Incatatum scene and that Lily should have come before James. She did say this in an interview about 5/6 years ago, so you must surely have read about it before?

The main reason for the convoluted plan to get Harry to graveyard has already been mentioned. If Harry just disappeared over night, then suspicion would be very high that something was up and Dumbledore wouldn't have had half as much trouble convincing the world that Voldemort was or at least might well be back.

Voldemort needed a plan that would make it easier for his people within the ministry to convince the world that Dumbledore and Harry were lying and that Voldemort wasn't at all back. Hence, he took advantage of the tournament.

Finally, Voldemort didn't want Barty Crouch Jnr. to get caught, he was a fairly useful, loyal servant in all fairness. Voldemort went with the plan that would most likely let Crouch get away.

Innervision

Draupnir wrote: »

Rowling has already said that she made a mistake when writing the Priori Incatatum scene and that Lily should have come before James. She did say this in an interview about 5/6 years ago, so you must surely have read about it before?

No never heard that, at least I know I'm not going crazy

Blue-Eyed

Well, in the Estonian translation his mother comes out before his dad, so everything's right there.

-Blue- :cool: