All the same god?

midlandsmissus

rockbeer wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that Mohammed might be the same person as Jesus?

Excuse me that was actually a typo in my op, I meant to say mohammed was similiar to moses not Jesus.

In that they both had teachings revealed to them by god. Fixed it now!

midlandsmissus

Zamboni wrote: »

Surely the next logical step it to discard religion then?

Surely?

Why do you think that?

I know its done me personally alot of good to believe in god. as long as we're happy with what we believe in, that's a good thing, no?

destroyer

Zamboni wrote: »

Surely the next logical step it to discard religion then?

Surely?

The ONLY logical step. This is nonsense looking for similarities
in a few main religions and deducing one common god.
There are hundreds of different religions/beliefs/sects
with wildly conflicting views. They can't all be right ,its crazy
to think one could be right and all others wrong, so therefore
ALL ARE WRONG.. ITS ALL NONSENSE FFS.

midlandsmissus

bluewolf wrote: »

I think she has confused you and me.

Bluewolf, I did mean to write this seperately to you, but it got mixed up in my post to zamboni somehow, so this one was yours:

I would say karma means at its most basic level means every action has a consequence. This applies in christianity aswell?

"with very little apparent knowledge of them(religions)."

Right if you want to go down that track, ask me something, anything then! I am not as ignorant about other religions as you think. Why would I post this thread if I didnt know anything to argue with? Especially in the atheist forum? I'm not that stupid!

Zamboni

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why do you think that?

You just said there is no correct religion.
So why would you bother following an incorrect one?
You're losing me rapid here

destroyer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why do you think that?

I know its done me personally alot of good to believe in god. as long as we're happy with what we believe in, that's a good thing, no?

Of course its good for you. It just isn't logical.
So hold onto it for yourself but dont put it out there like
its some great universal truth.

kiffer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why do you think that?

I know its done me personally alot of good to believe in god. as long as we're happy with what we believe in, that's a good thing, no?

Is it? Would it not be better the get professional help for problems rather that believe a father figure in the sky will help you solve your troubles and woes? I know this is a little insulting... But if someone believed that the spirit of Lucy from "I love Lucy" had come back to help them through their problems you'd think that was pretty crazy... And maybe a little unhealthy too... Even if it helped them cope.

midlandsmissus

Zamboni wrote: »

You just said there is no correct religion.
So why would you bother following an incorrect one?
You're losing me rapid here

No. What I was saying with 'there's no sole correct religion' is that I believe there isn't one 'right religion' and that all the others are wrong.

I think they're all as good as each other

I think you might have interpreted it as 'there is no right religion at all', which wasnt what i meant.

midlandsmissus

kiffer wrote: »

Is it? Would it not be better the get professional help for problems rather that believe a father figure in the sky will help you solve your troubles and woes? I know this is a little insulting... But if someone believed that the spirit of Lucy from "I love Lucy" had come back to help them through their problems you'd think that was pretty crazy... And maybe a little unhealthy too... Even if it helped them cope.

Em...Professional help....Problems.... What? I dont have any big problems, no more than the next person, thanks.

No dont worry you haven't insulted me, only I can say, I know you think the religious viewpoint is 'pretty crazy' but I don't at all.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No. What I was saying with 'there's no sole correct religion' is that I believe there isn't one 'right religion' and all the others are wrong.

I think they're all as good as each other

I think you might have interpreted it as 'there is no right religion at all', which wasnt what i meant.

Every religion professes to be the sole correct one. This is intrinsic in their construction.

If we take what you say to be true, that a right religion is not necessarily unique, then every religion is incorrect, as the 'rightness' of a religion is predicated on the fact that it is correct (obviously enough). So there is no 'right' religion.

You are right in saying they are all as good as each other. They are equally incorrect.

midlandsmissus

Schuhart wrote: »

Just formalising it a bit, I think your essential contention is what the Bahai faith would hold. That said, I don’t know much about them – but you might be interesting in exploring their ideas, and I usually find wikipedia makes for a reasonable start. There seems to be a community in Ireland, if you find its for you.

I think you could organise the sequence of faiths a little differently. As I’d see it, you have the faiths based around the Jewish tradition. Basically, the Jews had a tribal religion that propounded the idea that they had a special convenant with the sole god and creator. Later, Jesus arrives on the scene purporting to be a or the Messiah. Jews typically don’t accept that he was. After the death of Jesus, his followers start recruiting from outside the Jewish community and the Christian faith is born.

Six hundred years after that, Mohammed claims to be getting visions from that same god. He’s living in a place that has Jews, Christians and various tribal religions. He starts a faith that draws an amount from the Jewish/Christian tradition, in particular influenced by Christians called Nestorians. Mohammed includes the legend of Jesus, but says he was not the son of god and that a doppelganger was crucified instead of him. He said Jesus will return at the end of days to take part in the final war and kill the Anti-Christ.

That’s, as I see it, the inter-relation between Jews, Christians and Muslims. Hindus, as I understand it, have an independent history to their religion, and allows for their being many gods. Buddhism, generally, holds that there is no god, but similarly had its origins in Indian spiritual tradition. And then, as Thaedydal draws attention to, you have people following Pagan traditions that would not particularly draw on any of the above. There's probably other traditions that we haven't thought of (I don't know if anyone follows the ancient Greek and Roman gods anymore). But I suppose the point might be that, while Jews, Christians and Muslims must all acknowledge a common heritage, there's other folk who would not see themselves as part of that lineage at all.

Anyway, I suppose the main point is that, indeed, there is a religion that essentially agrees with your concept that all religions have a common base.

Schuhart,

Thank you very much for that. I know I beleive in God and Jesus, but I disagree with alot of the christian teachings, and I definitely believe all religions are as good as each other. I really call myself a Christian because it was the religion that was closest to my beliefs. nothing really suited me exactly. And I am new to religion this year after all.
That bahai faith is very interesting. It does seem to be exactly what I believe in, event though I had never heard of it before. Thank you very much for the link! I am going to read up more about it.

rockbeer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think they're all as good as each other

But they all contradict each other. You have to make a choice at some point. Do you believe in reincarnation or not? Do you believe Jesus was the son of god or not?

These things are true or not true. You can't have it both ways. Not unless you're a bit out there, I guess. Which you might be.

rockbeer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That bahai faith is very interesting. It does seem to be exactly what I believe in, event though I had never heard of it before. Thank you very much for the link! I am going to read up more about it.

Fantastic! Does A&A get an award for helping someone find god? :pac:

midlandsmissus

Just read more about the Bahai Faith. That is actually really really interesting. Thank you very much Schuhart! I was actually feeling lost because even though I believe in Jesus, Christianity still didn't exactly suit me, and I didn't know which way to go really. I only started believing this year.
I've just read that artcle about the Bahai faith and its uncanny how much it fits me and what I think about, I can't believe it.

I'm going to have to do more research into it. Thanks for signposting me again, I had never heard of it.

Zamboni

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I've just read that artcle about the Bahai faith and its uncanny how much it fits me and what I think about, I can't believe it.

MM
This is wild speculation.
And I am genuinely not trying to be mean.
Let me know if its far from the mark.

It sounds to me that you are searching for something and you're not quite sure what it is.
You equated your prior atheism to being the reason this something was missing and came to the conclusion that religion would be the answer.
Christianity is the dominant faith here and the obvious starting point but you are obviously disillusioned with various elements.
So now you're basically on the lookout for anything that, and I quote, 'fits'.

I would like to make a suggetion and say that atheism was not the reason for the void in your life so acquiring a religion/faith/belief system is not going to fill that hole.
Join a tennis club or something

midlandsmissus

Zamboni wrote: »

MM
This is wild speculation.
And I am genuinely not trying to be mean.
Let me know if its far from the mark.

It sounds to me that you are searching for something and you're not quite sure what it is.
You equated your prior atheism to being the reason this something was missing and came to the conclusion that religion would be the answer.
Christianity is the dominant faith here and the obvious starting point but you are obviously disillusioned with various elements.
So now you're basically on the lookout for anything that, and I quote, 'fits'.

I would like to make a suggetion and say that atheism was not the reason for the void in your life so acquiring a religion/faith/belief system is not going to fill that hole.
Join a tennis club or something

Zamboni,

Thanks for your input, but you are indeed way off the mark. I am very content with all areas of my life. I'm very lucky with what I have:family, friends, work, boyfriend, and I am very grateful for this.
This year alot of unusual things happened to me (vague I know but its the only way I can explain it), to make me believe in the spirit world, God, and Jesus. That belief is absolutely unshakeable. Now I did call myself a christian because thats what I thought I must be, but I dont agree with alot of what they say. So while I know what I believe in, and it includes god and jesus, I suppose there is no real 'term' for it. Im not going to jump into the bahai faith now, it is just interesting to read up on it. I actually prefer being unlabelled really anyway. Im just me and im happy!

Botany Bay

MM,



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus


Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle. - Galileo Galilei



I suggest you read, re-read and read again.The two above pieces from two well known historcial figures. Particular emphasis should be placed on the highlighted piece. You and every human being that exists and has existed, is merely a carbon unit. A simple, bio-chemical life-form, on a little blue, ball of gas spinning around in the arse end of nowhere. You and every other human being including my good self, are utterly meaningless and irrelevent in the universal, cosmological sense.

So arguing over what is effectively semantics, between religious beliefs, and apparent similarities between their "Gods" is irrelevant. Do something important and worthwhile. Create your own meaning, join a sports club, cookery class, or book society. Go back to college. After all, the only meaning and purpose thate exists in your life, is that which you create yourself. THERE IS NO GRAND MEANING OR PURPOSE. Your beliefs in the supernatural and your God, are nothing more than self imposed delusion. It may give you some contentment or perceived happinness, but all it is, is fantasy.

You're wasting your time, trying to derive meaning from what religion is "correct" or which God is the "right" one. In fact you'll find, by their nature that the various religions that happen to be popular at the moment, are diametrically oppossed to one another. They're incompatable. All you're trying to do, is engage copious amounts of cognitive dissonance by trying to rationalise which parts fit with your viewpoints and which don't. By the process of cherry-picking, you are in fact by default, dismissing each and very religion that you come across. That in itself should tell you something.

You're not special. There is no grand purpose or design or plan. At least not in the cosmic, universal sense. Only that which you create yourself. So lose the antropocentric, egotistical, self-centred baggage, and develop a bit of intellectual and emotional honesty. In essence, GROW UP.

lostexpectation

>> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=535

Zamboni

lostexpectation wrote: »

>> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=535

Not sure why you posted that link but it made me laugh at that forum as it reminded me when I was a dumb teenager.

Christianity: Age 1-13
Spirituality: Age 14-15
Pagan: Age 15
Atheist: Age of reason and onwards...

This thread has veered on and off topic for a bit (guilty as charged) but Botany Bay has made a cracking post there.
Comparing religions is futile. Its like comparing Star Wars to Othello.

Mal-Adjusted

to answer the op's question, of the main religions, i guess Christianity, Jeudism(sp?) and Muslim are all pretty much the same fundamentals underneath it all. Budhism isn't a religin and Hindu is compleatley separate.

brianthebard

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Yeah to be honest it doesnt matter where I post it, the same people always end up on it!

I'm looking for everybody's opinion.


To the atheists/agnostics: I know you dont beleive in god, but my question is:

Alot of atheists state that religion is ridiculous as it depends on what geographical area you are born in in order to end up in the 'right' religion?

But i'm proposing 'Couldnt the god in each religion be the same god under a different name, and that alot of the religions have very similiar aspects?'

Now I dont know every single thing about every religion, so if there are people from other religions on here, please dont be offended as I know i am generalising. Its just an idea I want to throw out. As a buddhist pointed out to me already, buddhism is really the one that is the most different, I actually thought that while I was writing it, so maybe if you're answering have a look at the other religions. Just want to know peoples opinions, thanks!

That's generally how I look at things, but not how the churches do it. If you can show up religions that accept that all gods are equal (possibly one or two, but not many believe this) then you might have a case. It certainly isn't a Christian tenet though, no matter which sect you follow.

kiffer

I think we've all been a bit rough on midlandsmissus...

She's mentioned earlier that prior to the last year or so she was not religious... where as a lot of us might have encountered this "all gods are one god with different hats on" idea before.

As religious ideas go it seems pretty tolerant but can be dismissed out of hand by many non-monotheists (it's a little insulting, along the same lines as my god is the only god) and between monotheists it can come across as a sort of your god is my God (true god) but you've just got some details wrong...
Islamic/christian/jewish god is clearly the same god (although there are some that argue that's not the case... Although I can only think of crazy people that claim that off the top of my head, such as Jack Chick... )

Hmm this post is off tone too... I can't seem to hit the right note with my posts these days.
There are of course many tolerant religious ideas.
I just don't think of this as one of them... It's not tolerant of differences, it's trying to gloss over the differences so that you can ignore them.
I just think many people that trot out "all gods are one god" tend to have a bit of a "but my religions version is the most correct" angle to their arguements.
I know midlandsmissus isn't saying that but... the last few times i've encountered the idea it's been that way.

bou

I'm a buddhist so here follows my own, probably incorrect, understanding.

Within buddhisms, there are quite an array of beliefs and philosophical systems. There are many ways that the word of the Buddha have been understood, misunderstood and partially understood. It is said traditionally that there are 84,000 kinds of mental afflictions and in order to meet the needs of sentient beings, each having their own variation of distorted vision, there are 84,000 kinds of teachings to work as antidotes to those afflictions. My understanding is that Buddhism doesn't see other religions as necessarily flawed. It sees a vast array of beings who are caught up in a misperception of reality based on their past conditioning and habits. Any religion is seen as appropriate for an individual where it effectively meets their needs to transform their minds and purify their perception. Any mode of behaviour is good when it acts as a skillful means to assist one to overcome negative emotions, adopt positive actions, reject negative actions, reduce self-centredness and thereby to reduce the distorted perceptions of reality.

The teachings say that if we leave ourselves to our own devices, just doing what we like, we'll tend do all kinds of things that are negative and do less that is positive and so continue to perpetuate our distorted perceptions and conditioned existence. Mileage may vary - some people have a more altruistic bent and naturally tend towards positive actions. Religion is seen as a way of skilfully working with ourselves to transform perception. As one works and transforms, one's perception changes and so too does one's understanding of the religion which is being followed. It is said that the ultimate view of reality completely transcends rational conceptual understanding and cannot even be described in words. But it can be experienced when distorted perceptions have been purified.

So, ultimately, true religion is seen as indescribable. So all religions may appear to be a bit off the mark but through continually working at it, one gets closer to the mark. If you're following buddhism, you don't think that you have the true picture of what buddhism is. If you did, you'd be a completely enlightened Buddha. If you could simply state a set of points that completely describe the core meaning of religion and God then there wouldn't be anything more to do. No need for meditation practice, prayer, right conduct, mind transformation. The point of all the efforts at working on yourself is to transform your mind and come closer to true understanding of what oneself, others, existence and God are.

There is point though about spiritual shopping, hopping from one belief to another and taking bits and pieces that you like. This is seen as a possible problem because as you suit yourself you avoid doing what needs to be done to transform and instead stay within the domain of your habitual mind. By following a good religion well, you do the difficult things that your ordinary habitual mind baulks at, and in the process let go of deluded perceptions.

So, the summary might be: many religions are good; following many religions may not be so good.

Gambler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just read more about the Bahai Faith. That is actually really really interesting. Thank you very much Schuhart! I was actually feeling lost because even though I believe in Jesus, Christianity still didn't exactly suit me, and I didn't know which way to go really. I only started believing this year.
I've just read that artcle about the Bahai faith and its uncanny how much it fits me and what I think about, I can't believe it.

I'm going to have to do more research into it. Thanks for signposting me again, I had never heard of it.

I actually grew up as a Bahá'í, if I was to be part of any religion it would be the Bahá'ís but like any religion it has a few downsides!

If you do want info and some contacts to find out more drop me a PM and I'll put you in touch with some practicing Bahá'ís in your area

rockbeer

bou wrote: »

I'm a buddhist so here follows my own, probably incorrect, understanding.

<big snip>

So, the summary might be: many religions are good; following many religions may not be so good.

That's interesting stuff, bou. Should I take it from what you've said that Buddhism is less concerned with the objective truth of a particular faith or teaching than on its psychological value in helping somebody closer to some abstract concept of wisdom? In other words, that the value of a religion is not to be judged by it's truth but by it's utility as a self-awareness tool?

Hmmm, not sure about this. I can't see how one can expect to gain useful self awareness by knowingly practicing self-deception. Besides, there are many ways for people to gather together and work with each other without having to indulge in some collective false mythology. It sounds like it might be a teaching more appropriate to a historical time when a world without religion was unimaginable.

ChocolateSauce

Gambler wrote: »

I actually grew up as a Bahá'í, if I was to be part of any religion it would be the Bahá'ís but like any religion it has a few downsides!

Yeah, they're a bunch of commies :pac:

But seriously, they're way way down on my "list". Not at all a bad religion, especially for a monotheism.


Zamboni, you were a Christian at the age of one? That's what I call early learning!

kelly1

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hello, in a different thread I said that I beleived all religions are good. At this, some-one said to me that this is the opposite of what the christian church teaches, 'do not worship false idols'. It certainly is the teaching of the cristian church not to worship false idols, but I dont believe other religions are actually worshipping false idols.

I wanted to start a new thread on the matter because I am really interested in what people's views on this are. Could not the god in each religion on earth be the same god?

Here was my argument:

All religions are based around a god obviously. The God in every religion has a different name. In my opinion each god that people believe in is the same god. They just have different names due to different languages and cultures. So it doesn't matter what group you affiliate yourselves with. It doesnt matter. It just depends on your geographical circumstances. Lets look at each main religion:


Islam - Muslims believe in a God who dictated the quoran to Muhammad. Now could muhammad not maybe be their name for the person we call moses. Just different societies give different names? Or maybe there was different prophets sent to different continents. People obviously base their religion around the one theyve heard about. Just because I believe in Jesus and moses, doesnt mean i dont think there could have been other teachers in different places around the world. why not? Muslims believe in many similiarites such as the angel gabriel. Muslims mainly believe jews and christians to be wrong because they distorted the revelations in the quoran. Not that judaism and christiany are completely wrong. just that they went off on a different branch

Hinduism - beleive in god, eternal souls and angels. they call God 'Brahman'. Who is to say this is a different god to the one i believe in? just a name in their language for him?

Judaism - very similiar to christianity, they believe in the 'God of Abraham'. believe in jesus, the only difference is they believe he was a prophet not the son of god.


Buddhism - believe in the prophet Buddha. Who's to say god didnt send a prophet to india to teach there. christianity wouldnt include it because obviously it happened in a faraway area, so people wouldnt have known about it. it makes sense to me for a prophet to have existed in india to influence their religions, and not be in the western world religions.

Buddhists believe in heaven and hell the same as christians do- just different levels of heaven and different levels of hell. They call heaven nirvana.

If you look at all the main religions they all have very similiar ideologies. Alot of religions feature in other religions. In my personal opinion, the god everyone believes in, call him allah, god or whatever, is the same god.

Now last of all, I would call myself a christian, but that doesnt mean i believe every single thing set out for me by churches or the bible. I disagree with things. I question things. I say to myself 'it was a human who wrote that, and whos to say they know any more than i do'. The bible isnt the final word to me. Who's to say it hasnt got distorted over years of translation. I beleive you have to find your own way to god. Not read or let other people tell you what to do.

If you're calling yourself something it doesnt mean you cant disagree with some of the teachings. I wish atheists on here would understand this. you make your own way. it's all about your own personal path. that's what i really beleive.

I beleive in jesus which is why i call myself a christian. but i disagree with alot of things the christian church teaches. I think original teaching becomes easily warped and changed through humans, as it is very easy and probably human nature to bend religion for their own personal gain and power.

I make my own way.

Hello MLM, could I ask you a couple of question please?

Which is more important to you; the truth or the consolation offered by ones chosen beliefs/religion?

Why do you believe that the bible has been distorted? When did it become distorted? Have you any reason to believe the original Greek is corrupted?

God bless,
Noel.

Gambler

Which is more important to you; the truth or the consolation offered by ones chosen beliefs/religion?

It strikes me that religion does really equal consolation. To my mind there's no more "truth" to one religion over any other one..

bou

rockbeer wrote: »

That's interesting stuff, bou. Should I take it from what you've said that Buddhism is less concerned with the objective truth of a particular faith or teaching than on its psychological value in helping somebody closer to some abstract concept of wisdom? In other words, that the value of a religion is not to be judged by it's truth but by it's utility as a self-awareness tool?

Hmmm, not sure about this. I can't see how one can expect to gain useful self awareness by knowingly practicing self-deception. Besides, there are many ways for people to gather together and work with each other without having to indulge in some collective false mythology. It sounds like it might be a teaching more appropriate to a historical time when a world without religion was unimaginable.

Most things we do, we do with the attitude that we are separate from everything else. We do everything we can to protect and advance this self and consider everything in relation to this self: "What will be good for me?" "I hope this turns out well for me." "Why did this have to happen to me?" "Why did you hurt me?" "Why won't you get out of my way?" "You are the only thing standing between me and happiness."

We evaluate situations and people in terms of being friend or foe. We look outside ourselves for things to bring greater satisfaction, comfort, self-worth and avoid things which seem to cause us problems. A lot of what we do involves a degree of self-deception, as in thinking about everything in terms of this separate self and other things outside. In Buddhism, attitudes which arise from seeing oneself as separate to everything else are seen as preventing us from seeing the way things are in reality. So letting go of self-centredness is seen as beneficial. Anything which helps to reduce that will have a positive result. Developing a truly selfless compassionate, generous, patient, joyful attitude are seen as very strong antidotes to the view of the self as separate. Developing mindfulness and awareness are important also in seeing through the concepts we have about ourselves and our relationship to the world.

Wisdom is not seen as some abstract concept, not a concept at all, but as being inately present within us although it is obscured by misunderstanding. Rather than 'self-awareness', pure non-referencial awareness beyond thought is seen as something to work towards. Since we are overrun by deceptions of thoughts of a separate self, then positive deceptive thoughts are also useful to apply as antidotes to those deceptions.

It seems that in other religions one also works to overcome self-centredness and to see something beyond the ordinary world view we usually live by.
Buddhism is very much concerned with absolute truth (not objective truth), the nature of reality, of mind, of being. However, relative, subjective truth, is the way we perceive things to be. So one works with relative truth to let go of obscurations in order to see the true nature of things. Christianity seems very much concerned about God, an infinite being which one strives to unite with, to become one with, leaving behind concern for one's one petty self.

Dades

Gambler wrote: »

I actually grew up as a Bahá'í, if I was to be part of any religion it would be the Bahá'ís but like any religion it has a few downsides!

If you do want info and some contacts to find out more drop me a PM and I'll put you in touch with some practicing Bahá'ís in your area

Just heard Tom Dunne on Newstalk is going to have a Bahá'í chap on his show this morning (the show is on after the 9am news.