Irish Rail and the O2 - GET OUT OF THE 19th CENTURY!

Nostradamus

A station alongside one of the top entertainment events in Europe now. Over 100 gigs a year. A massive customer base with a modern and underutilised station which connects the O2 Arena with the entire rail network (potentially, with a bit of imagination) and not a peep out of these muppets. A downturn in customer numbers. A surplus of trains. Station near the venue... an unfinished light rail connection and shag all parking...

Can Irish Rail mentally be retarded? Serious. I am not joking. There has to be some explination for their utter lack of marketing and business development?

Are IE management, unions and commerical managers mentally sub normal? Or are they some kind of NEw Age Bhuddists who reject money during a major cash flow period for them as part of their wider trancendental esoteric lifestyle?

They are a joke beyond a joke. The first meeting of P11 5 years back I made a Powerpoint presentation with the title "IE - ONE OF THE WORST RAIL SERVICE PROVIDERS IN EUROPE? NO, ONE OF THE WORST IN THE WORLD"

Nothing has changed in a real non-kit purchasing sense, they are a beyond pathetic.

Cool Mo D

Irish Rail are so short sighted that they purposely built a station in the docklands that can be accessed by Kildare trains, but not by Maynooth trains, when it would have been just as easy to do both.
Not advertising no stupider than the standard decisions they make every day and the way they treat their customers.

L1011

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Irish Rail are so short sighted that they purposely built a station in the docklands that can be accessed by Kildare trains, but not by Maynooth trains, when it would have been just as easy to do both.
Not advertising no stupider than the standard decisions they make every day and the way they treat their customers.

Kildare trains can't get to it (as it stands...) due to them serving Heuston. If yiou're going to reroute them to Docklands, they would need to perform a reversing procedure to get there anyway!

Maynooth trains can serve it if they skip Drumcondra.

Rawr

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Irish Rail are so short sighted that they purposely built a station in the docklands that can be accessed by Kildare trains, but not by Maynooth trains, when it would have been just as easy to do both.
Not advertising no stupider than the standard decisions they make every day and the way they treat their customers.

That station is served by Clonsilla-terminating trains which themselves may extend to the (hopefully) reopened Navan line. Maynooth trains could terminate here also, quite easily.

They are a joke beyond a joke. The first meeting of P11 5 years back I made a Powerpoint presentation with the title "IE - ONE OF THE WORST RAIL SERVICE PROVIDERS IN EUROPE? NO, ONE OF THE WORST IN THE WORLD"

Although I would agree that IE have a lot of issues that they need to sort out, and that you may have valid argument on how bad they are, I cannot agree with you on what you are saying in your post.

It appears that you are suggesting that IE are a terrible rail company due to transport issues with the O2Arena. You mention an unfinished Luas line which is the responsibility of RPA and poor parking which is likely the responsibility of many others (Dublin City and/or O2Arena?). Of which, neither have anything to do with IE.

As you have said, there is a Docklands Station, which I'm not a fan of I have to say. It is supposed to be temporary until a Spencer Dock station is built, but i do fear that it may become permanent. That said, the current station is not all that far away from the O2. Connolly St. is not that far away either.

I agree that IE can be pretty bad, but what I'm saying is that you can't use the O2Arena as proof of that. Your grievances on O2 have more to do with poor planning, an inept City Council and a Government who simply can't join the dots.

lostexpectation

i sort of miss your point among that rant.

Bluetonic

Nostradamus - It's called The O2, there is no 'Arena' attached to the name.

It just goes to show all the marketing in the world won't stop people believing something different. :rolleyes:

covert

OP shows the joys of boards - never mind the facts, just mouth off with your assumptions and prejudices.

Is the OP aware that IE have met with O2 management, to ensure that O2 can advise IE of numbers expected per gig, geographic spread of ticket purchases, so that IE can plan extra services if and when required?

Or is he just happy to namecall?

thomasj

IE did originally say that Kildare services would call at Docklands in fact the staff on the ground are still convinced they will after the 4-tracking project and extra resources! It doesn't take much a few twitches here and there!

I know of someone who had to went to a concert in the RDS and didn't see the whole gig just to get back to town and over to catch the last kildare train from Heuston. On that night the trains out of connolly were held in line with the concert finishing late! didn't help her though!

The simple fact is if they had put the effort into it Docklands could be another Drumcondra for them, if its that close more Kildare passengers will use it you have to meet them half way as well.

The walk from Docklands to the point is not that long only around the corner but connolly is a bit longer the sheer fact that the O2 are telling people to get the 151 bus on the quays does that not say something?

Sure pace trains will be in place going to from docklands so it will be very handy for Maynooth line passengers.

Nostradamus

Bluetonic wrote: »

Nostradamus - It's called The O2, there is no 'Arena' attached to the name.

It just goes to show all the marketing in the world won't stop people believing something different. :rolleyes:

Or maybe that some of us are not tottally prone to being controlled by marketing. You see not all of us are addicted to hype.

But thanks for setting me straight. Getting the corporate name of the location is far more important than actually serving it with decent transport. I see how wrong I have been thinking this.

Tell you what. Let's forget about utilising rail locations near potential massive customer bases from now on. Especially if someone get's the name of the place wrong. The future of Irish Rail transport is in the Woodlawns and the Cloughjordans. Forget doing anything which might attact passenger numbers.

Just keep the network open for a few RPSI steam engine specials and the odd 44,000+ photos of the weed spraying train at Wellington Bridge. Yeah, that's what Irish Rail are for. Perhaps the odd deluded fantasy of freight trains running between Tuam and Foxford. Dreaming the dream is always more viable than actually doing something.

There ya go.

markpb

covert wrote: »

Is the OP aware that IE have met with O2 management, to ensure that O2 can advise IE of numbers expected per gig, geographic spread of ticket purchases, so that IE can plan extra services if and when required?

I was at a show in the West end in London last night. When I left, I got the Tube back to my hotel. I'm fairly sure the NTC and TfL didn't have a chat about projected geographic ticket sales - trains were provided because a large number of people in a small area needed public transport.

Concerts could be a huge cash cow for Irish Rail because the majority of people will pay the maximum cash fare, instead of using monthly or annual tickets which have an almost-zero revenue.

covert wrote: »

OP shows the joys of boards - never mind the facts, just mouth off with your assumptions and prejudices.

I can't understand posts like this. I'm not sure if you're an Irish Rail defender or you just hate ranty posts on the internet. Assuming you're the later, I think we can all agree that we've had decades of crap public transport and that Irish Rail are a god-awful train operating company (that can't blame all their woes on lack of investment). Given that, what makes you think things are happening in the background to improve matters? Is there any sign at all (other than the hot air that comes from politicians), that there will be any improvement in the next decade?

Bluetonic

Did you make any submission to the planning authority at the time with regards to transport?

spurious

I think actually if we were still in the 19th century, there would be a rail link there.

dereko1969

rant, rant, rant.
facts - the docklands luas extension will be completed by the end of 2009. this will link the o2 to connolly station and close enough to the
the docklands rail station that currently accommodates trains from clonsilla and will be the destination for most trains from pace (it's only a 7 minute walk from the o2 to there anyway).
the docklands interconnector/dart underground station will be close enough to the o2 and beside the overground rail station and the luas stop and will provide links to the 'kildare' line and the northern line and through the luas link to connolly will provide links to the west.
are you honestly suggesting that a heavy rail line should have been extended to the doors of the o2 by irish rail? because that doesn't make any sense but why let that get in the way of a rant.

markpb

Bluetonic wrote: »

Did you make any submission to the planning authority at the time with regards to transport?

Are you serious or trolling?

Do you think residents of London, New York, Tokyo or any other capital city have to make submissions to remind their local or central government to take public transport into account? How would that go exactly... "I petition that you do your bloody job instead of counting the tax that comes from car and petrol sales?"

dereko1969

markpb wrote: »

I was at a show in the West end in London last night. When I left, I got the Tube back to my hotel. I'm fairly sure the NTC and TfL didn't have a chat about projected geographic ticket sales - trains were provided because a large number of people in a small area needed public transport.

but why is the OP insisting on an IE extension of heavy rail to the o2? you're not querying why Tube and not Heavy Rail. The Luas extension will link to heavy rail at Connolly, the Docklands is near enough. Surely we shouldn't be doubling up on expenditure just so that people don't have to move from one type of public transport to another, it would be overkill.

covert

markpb wrote: »

I was at a show in the West end in London last night. When I left, I got the Tube back to my hotel. I'm fairly sure the NTC and TfL didn't have a chat about projected geographic ticket sales - trains were provided because a large number of people in a small area needed public transport.

Concerts could be a huge cash cow for Irish Rail because the majority of people will pay the maximum cash fare, instead of using monthly or annual tickets which have an almost-zero revenue.



I can't understand posts like this. I'm not sure if you're an Irish Rail defender or you just hate ranty posts on the internet. Assuming you're the later, I think we can all agree that we've had decades of crap public transport and that Irish Rail are a god-awful train operating company (that can't blame all their woes on lack of investment). Given that, what makes you think things are happening in the background to improve matters? Is there any sign at all (other than the hot air that comes from politicians), that there will be any improvement in the next decade?

I hate ranty posts that are clearly based on the poster's own flawed assumptions. I phoned up IE (it amazes me how few people do this when they are unsure of the facts - but then again, most people on boards of this nature are so certain of their own position it's not required :rolleyes: ), and I was told that O2 were very open to working with IE and that specials post-concerts - if the events are over too late for the normal schedule - were going to be an absolute norm of the services for the O2.

Now, as I'm not going, I didn't think to ask why there's none advertised for the <snip> concert, and maybe that's what sent the OP off on one, but rather than find out, he rolled up his prejudices and assumptions and went off on one.

icdg

Rawr wrote: »

As you have said, there is a Docklands Station, which I'm not a fan of I have to say. It is supposed to be temporary until a Spencer Dock station is built, but i do fear that it may become permanent. That said, the current station is not all that far away from the O2. Connolly St. is not that far away either.

Anyone planning on using Docklands Station to get to/from The O2 (can't we just call it the Point Depot?) might need to bear the following in mind:

* The last inbound train serving Docklands departs Clonsilla at 18:46.
* The last outbound training leaving Docklands departs at 19:20.

Might be useful for getting there (if concert starts 20:00), but forget about returning. Then again Docklands stations' passenger numbers are apparently rather low (though perhaps not as low as the nearly zero numbers using Phoenix Park) and services have been slashed in the new timetable (approx 9 trains in each direction a day)

(Off topic: are any other Maynooth line customers freaked out by the fact that the cover of Irish Rail's new timetable for the line appears to show a train being blown over by water??? - See http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2009/Dublin%20Maynooth%2009.pdf )

strassenwolf

icdg wrote: »

(Off topic: are any other Maynooth line customers freaked out by the fact that the cover of Irish Rail's new timetable for the line appears to show a train being blown over by water??? - See http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2009/Dublin%20Maynooth%2009.pdf )

(Also off topic: No, on the contrary, that seems to be in line with the company's current picture policy: To pick pictures which will get people thinking outside the box, etc., etc., etc., etc.

As far as I am aware, They seem to have started this with their selection of a picture of Trudering underground station in Munich as an illustration of how the underground DART would work.

A curved platform, for a start, which would nowadays be considered "unusual" for a newly built underground line.

And the fact that the construction of the station involved probably the biggest disaster in the development of Munich's underground system, with serious loss of life.

Of all the stations which might have been picked from around the world, This was the station chosen as Irish Rail's example of how life would be with an underground system, and during its costruction.)

Tsk, Tsk, icdg, you need to start thinking outside the envelope.:rolleyes::P

DWCommuter

covert wrote: »

I hate ranty posts that are clearly based on the poster's own flawed assumptions. I phoned up IE (it amazes me how few people do this when they are unsure of the facts - but then again, most people on boards of this nature are so certain of their own position it's not required :rolleyes: ), and I was told that O2 were very open to working with IE and that specials post-concerts - if the events are over too late for the normal schedule - were going to be an absolute norm of the services for the O2.

Now, as I'm not going, I didn't think to ask why there's none advertised for the Coldplay concert, and maybe that's what sent the OP off on one, but rather than find out, he rolled up his prejudices and assumptions and went off on one.

The OPs assumptions aren't flawed and your phonecall to IE isn't necessarily worth jack as evidence of anything positive. I could spend all night citing things IE have said in ,public, private and to Dail Committies and then not followed up on. Like me, the OP has an long history of dealing with IE. Some of us are quite simply justified to make a criticism, just as you can believe what they tell you.

As for all the discussion over the railway and the O2, well it boils down to one thing - public transport and particularly the railway should run much later than it does.

Victor

A thread on this was previously closed. I'm closing this thread for the moment until it can be reviewed.

Nostradamus banned for being high maintenance.

Victor

Thread re-opened.

paulm17781

DWCommuter wrote: »

The OPs assumptions aren't flawed and your phonecall to IE isn't necessarily worth jack as evidence of anything positive. I could spend all night citing things IE have said in ,public, private and to Dail Committies and then not followed up on. Like me, the OP has an long history of dealing with IE. Some of us are quite simply justified to make a criticism, just as you can believe what they tell you.

When in your experience have IE ever said one thing and done another? I remember IE telling you in 2003 (I think) that they'd run rail services through the PPT as "there is demand for that" and these days commuters are all being delivered from Kildare to Pearse st. on a regular basis, just like they promised...

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

As you have said, there is a Docklands Station, which I'm not a fan of I have to say. It is supposed to be temporary until a Spencer Dock station is built, but i do fear that it may become permanent. That said, the current station is not all that far away from the O2. Connolly St. is not that far away either.

IÉ wanted to reopen Broadstone for Pace/Navan services but it seems the RPA will get their mits on it, as a result the current Docklands station will be retained. At least that's what I was told back in March but that was before the economy really fell to bits so who knows now.

Bluetonic

markpb wrote: »

petition that you do your bloody job instead of counting the tax that comes from car and petrol sales?

:rolleyes:

paulm17781

Karsini wrote: »

IÉ wanted to reopen Broadstone for Pace/Navan services but it seems the RPA will get their mits on it, as a result the current Docklands station will be retained. At least that's what I was told back in March but that was before the economy really fell to bits so who knows now.

That was more trying to flex muscle than anything. If the Interconnector was built, there'd be plenty of capacity for Navan trains without the need for Spencer mock or Broadstone.

trellheim

1. You used to be able to get a passenger train from North Wall [ many many many years ago ]

are you honestly suggesting that a heavy rail line should have been extended to the doors of the o2 by irish rail?

IIRC there was one in any event , ran about 3 metres outside the front door; Harry C bought the right-of-way off CIE to rebuild the O2

Ham'nd'egger

trellheim wrote: »

1. You used to be able to get a passenger train from North Wall [ many many many years ago ]

IIRC there was one in any event , ran about 3 metres outside the front door; Harry C bought the right-of-way off CIE to rebuild the O2

North Wall station was opened by the London and North Western Railway to link to their cross channel steamboats in the 1880's. It closed in the 1920's; that's a long long time ago! It was behind the red building beside Price Waterhouse Cooper's new offices on the Quays.

The line through the Point Yard was only kept open when the site was sold to Harry Crosbie for unloading deliveries of trains and rolling stock. The old berth is rather busy and in any case it isn't the deepest so it's limited in what boats it can receive. Consignments come through Belview Port or the deep water end of Dublin Port these days.

Victor

Half page ad in today's Metro. I'm going to take a look at the planning application - it seems it has a mobility plan. The application was to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, not the city council.

http://www.theo2.ie/getting-here/

Getting Here

Travelling to The O2 couldn’t be easier, situated in the heart of Dublin's docklands, The O2 is well served by public transport, with Bus, Rail, DART and LUAS all leaving you within a 20 minute walk from the venue.

There are no parking facilities at the Venue itself at this time, so it makes sense to make your journey by public transport, ensuring you arrive on time and leaving you nothing else to do but enjoy your visit.

The 02 Transport Guide

BrianD

Victor wrote: »

Half page ad in today's Metro. I'm going to take a look at the planning application - it seems it has a mobility plan. The application was to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, not the city council.

Down this neck of teh woods you can make the application to either authority apparently.

Bluetonic

BrianD wrote: »

Down this neck of teh woods you can make the application to either authority apparently.

The difference being that the DDDA can grant permission under Section 25 making the whole planning process much faster, for good and for bad.

Carawaystick

the fact anyone can claim a place served by a 20 min walk from any public transport is "well served" shows it to be a sham.
Considering it would take much less time to walk from Ringsend across the drawbridge from a number 3 bus....

mobpd

Carawaystick wrote: »

the fact anyone can claim a place served by a 20 min walk from any public transport is "well served" shows it to be a sham.
Considering it would take much less time to walk from Ringsend across the drawbridge from a number 3 bus....

I just complained to the Advertising standards with exactly the same point.
www.asai.ie

dereko1969

7 minute walk to Docklands rail station or 151 according to the www.dto.ie

Victor

Closest stations to the 02:

DART: Grand Canal Dock (1.32km) Connolly (1.42km), Tara Street (1.52km), Pearse (1.57km), Lansdowne Road (2.07km)

Green Line: St. Stephens Green (2.8km), Charlemont (3.2km, but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at St. Stephens Green).

Red Line: Busáras (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at Connolly).

KC61

Carawaystick wrote: »

the fact anyone can claim a place served by a 20 min walk from any public transport is "well served" shows it to be a sham.
Considering it would take much less time to walk from Ringsend across the drawbridge from a number 3 bus....

Indeed routes 50/56A/77/77A would all leave people with a shorter walk from Ringsend bus depot than down the quays.

Victor

KC61 wrote: »

Indeed routes 50/56A/77/77A would all leave people with a shorter walk from Ringsend bus depot than down the quays.

Actually, what is the terminus for them, the garage, Macken Street or somewhere else?

IRISH RAIL

While were at it can we put in a petition for a station at the gpo for when i want to buy stamps.
or maybe one outside my local theres lots of people there.

maybe we should go back to powerpoint presentations to groups who arent i wont finish this post

thomasj

Drumcondra is 5 minutes from croke park and has done really well for IE

Now whats wrong with Docklands?

Sure IE are crying out for passengers!

thomasj

full house 4-carriage train on the last service to maynooth tonight

The crowds seem to be arriving at connolly just after 11

BrianD

Unfortunately, a lot of people did drive this evening it would seem.

I'm just wondering how the LUAS will cope once it opens. In theory, it's great to have the tram link. However, even with three trams waiting at 10:30 it's not going to make a huge dent on the cira 14,000 exiting if it's 250 persons per tram.

I suppose they could have another rake of trams lined up on the inbound track between Spencer Dock and The O2.

Given that there is going to be a free for all, I can't imagine too many tickets being bought and checked unless they implement a Disneyland style Q-ing arrangement at the platforms.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

Actually, what is the terminus for them, the garage, Macken Street or somewhere else?

The stop before the garage on Ringsend Road is the final stop coming from Tallaght (just at the Barrow Street junction), and the first stop just after the depot is the initial stop going to Tallaght.

It is only the 74/74A that start at Macken Street.

Victor

So, I went along to the DDDA offices today and looked at the Mobility Plan that (wasn't quite) done as a result of a planning permission condition.

The plan, which has some errors, is essentially "Ah, sure it'll be grand". They seem to under-estimate car usage by concert-goers and over-estimate walking. I'll read up the details and post more later.

Note there are several parties involved - the owner, the operator, the promoter, the act.

BrianD wrote: »

However, even with three trams waiting at 10:30 it's not going to make a huge dent on the cira 14,000 exiting if it's 250 persons per tram.

All trams are now 40m, so they can hold quiet a bit more. They could probably stack another 2-3 trams outside the stop.

markpb

BrianD wrote: »

Given that there is going to be a free for all, I can't imagine too many tickets being bought and checked unless they implement a Disneyland style Q-ing arrangement at the platforms.

On busy GAA weekends, they have a queueing system at the Abbey St stop with the platform cordoned off and staff maintaining a queue along Marlborough St. It's not perfect but they do make an effort.

Likewise, the tram system that runs past Old Trafford stadium in Manchester can't handle the crowds so they built a physical train station with barriers. Staff let the tram capacity through the barriers and then close them so there's no safety issues on the platform. When the tram has departed, the barriers are opened again.

Of course, LRT isn't ideal for moving large crowds but this is what we have so we'll have to make the most of it.

dowlingm

Presumably the interconnector station should deal with some of that though - no point in overbuilding the LUAS when DART will be shouldering some of the load. The issue is how to get through the next few years but not building permanent capacity which gives them another excuse to defer putting shovels in the ground.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Presumably the interconnector station should deal with some of that though - no point in overbuilding the LUAS when DART will be shouldering some of the load. The issue is how to get through the next few years but not building permanent capacity which gives them another excuse to defer putting shovels in the ground.

With respect, the minister for transport today announced massive cutbacks in CIE due to the high losses the group is shouldering in the current economic climate. If we can't afford to run current services, then I think we should be leaving all talk of interconnectors at the door on the way in. Realistically we should be seeking short term solutions and not codding or deluding ourselves with grand plans that will be delayed way beyond 2015.

dowlingm

and that's the attitude that will get the Minister off the hook, like a parade of them before him.

if he wants to cancel a project, let him cancel some roads and that will fund the interconnector which will deliver transportation capacity increases far beyond the roads he cut.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

and that's the attitude that will get the Minister off the hook, like a parade of them before him.

if he wants to cancel a project, let him cancel some roads and that will fund the interconnector which will deliver transportation capacity increases far beyond the roads he cut.

Eh... no. The minister was never on any hook to start with. The dept of finance were on the hook and they get off hooks like fleas from a scruffy dog. The important thing to do here is to clearly expose and document the Governments failings in relation to public transport and use it in the future as a credible stick in which to beat them into doing the right thing for once. (when and/or if the cash comes flooding back.) Blindly insisting they build everything after they pissed the boom away, just plays into their hands actually.

And your point about roads is rediculous. Our national road network was a disgrace and is still the most used form of transport. Priorities please. Its the one priority the Government got right. Furthermore road projects of huge importance are being culled as we speak. So alls fair in love and war.

dowlingm

Exactly - priorities. The thinking you endorse is cut the most expensive project first. Mine is cut the least important project first. The only thing you get from building roads is a need for more roads. Any roads projects started should obviously be completed but if there isn't a shovel in the ground we shouldn't put one there. Obviously any nonsense about projects like Athenry-Tuam-Claremorris rail should go too, I'm not one of these rail at any price heads.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Exactly - priorities. The thinking you endorse is cut the most expensive project first. Mine is cut the least important project first. The only thing you get from building roads is a need for more roads. Any roads projects started should obviously be completed but if there isn't a shovel in the ground we shouldn't put one there. Obviously any nonsense about projects like Athenry-Tuam-Claremorris rail should go too, I'm not one of these rail at any price heads.

Im not endorsing any kind of thinking to cut anything. I am merely stating the obvious. The money has run out and large scale rail projects are in jeopardy.

Many road projects have been delayed.

dowlingm

Problem solved

DWCommuter

A similiar effort operated over 10 years ago. It was short lived. Brought my son to the Power rangers show, came out, some guy was shouting for business, asked him the price and said bye bye.

For the record, I travelled by public transport from and back to Naas for that particular show. It can be done. Even if the last services from the city centre were 12 o'clock, we'd be doing really well and a lot of hassle could be avoided. The slighest tweaking of DB, BE Commuter and commuter rail would do wonders.