Petition To Stop Ban!!!

foxhunter

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stopthefirearmsban/index.html

Please sign the petition at the above link to try and stop the ban on handguns
you will be asked for a donation but you do not have to make one.

Regards to every one.

dresden8

Foxhunter,

Petitions do eff all.

I already had one post deleted for mentioning the dreaded "L" word, but I'll put it another way and see if I get it past.

Politicians generally only look to one thing.

Votes.

Write to the Minister, your Local Councillors and TD's.

Tell them you won't be voting FF or Green, or for any opposition TD that supports these moves in any local elections or general elections, and tell them why. If the government come before the people with a vote on "Any Other Issue" you will vote against the government for the exact same reasons.

The Minister is acting the big man (ironically) because currently he has the power to do what he wants.

It's time to remind him that we loan him that power temporarily.

G17

foxhunter wrote: »

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stopthefirearmsban/index.html

Please sign the petition at the above link to try and stop the ban on handguns
you will be asked for a donation but you do not have to make one.

Regards to every one.

No one knows for sure what will work if anything will, thanks for posting the link, people can decide themselves if they want to sign it.

foxhunter

G17 wrote: »

No one knows for sure what will work if anything will, thanks for posting the link, people can decide themselves if they want to sign it.

Thats exactly what I thought .

fathersymes

If the Farmers Journal and any other publications related however remotely to shooting/countryside/equestrian interests could be persuaded to run a campaign to get their readers to lobby their TD's, we may be able to exercise enough pressure to threaten Mr. Aherne's tenure.

Unfortunately it probably wouldn't work unless we could convince Mr. Ganley to take on the matter

Grizzly 45

John Ganley and Micheal O Leary seem to be the only two public figures who arent afraid of sticking it to the Irish Govt,anytime allthe time.
We need more of these people these days.

Jumpy

To be fair, I would rather sign one that makes sure the ban goes ahead.

Grizzly 45

Why???

bunny shooter

Jumpy wrote: »

To be fair, I would rather sign one that makes sure the ban goes ahead.

Well to be fair that would be your opinion. But we are as entitled to ours as you are to yours

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

I already had one post deleted for mentioning the dreaded "L" word, but I'll put it another way and see if I get it past.

Your post about Lisbon was suitable for the Politics forum, not for here. That's why it was deleted.

dresden8 wrote: »

Politicians generally only look to one thing.

Votes.

Very true. General elections are a sure way of catching their attention.

dresden8 wrote: »

If the government come before the people with a vote on "Any Other Issue" you will vote against the government for the exact same reasons.

So if the government held a referendum to include a specific right to hunt in the constitution you'd vote against them out of spite? You should vote on the issue, not on the person who brought it.

Protest votes are utterly counter-productive for us. In the past few general elections the candidates who attracted the protest votes tended to be the Green Party, Sinn Fein and the various Socialist parties. None of those would be good news for shooting or hunting. Protest votes in a referendum make even less sense since they have historically (at least in my memory) not been a divisive issue among the big parties, hence even if the politicians did listen to you (which they won't) you have no political leverage with them. FF don't fear a SWP majority in the Dail, they do fear a FG one.

By all means, fight to make shooting, hunting and firearms ownership a political issue when there's a general election but be careful that you don't bite off your nose to spite your face in the process.

Sparks

What IRLConor said. If you vote no on Lisbon to protest the handgun ban, how the bloody hell would anyone know? Would a no result mean that the handgun ban should be overthrown? Or would it mean that the education budget cuts should be repealed? Or would it mean that there should be more Gardai on the beat in East Wall? Or would it mean that the pork recall shouldn't have happened and the EPA need to be given more teeth and more duties? Or would it mean that the government shouldn't keep rerunning referenda until we give the "right" answer?

You'd have no way to know, so there's no real point.

Jumpy

bunny shooter wrote: »

Well to be fair that would be your opinion. But we are as entitled to ours as you are to yours

Cool, but as long as you guys are aware you are a very small minority.

Personally I would hate to see any sport die, but overall making it harder for people to get their hands on weapons is beneficial, even if it does seriously inconvenience a very minor sport. While I am sure everyone on this forum will swear blind that they keep their guns in the equivalent of Fort Knox, they are still getting stolen from those that dont put as much effort into keeping them locked up.

Bananaman

Cool, but as long as you guys are aware you are a very small minority

Once minorities start to be persecuted, erroneously using "the greater good" as the justification - jackboot sales go through the roof.

even if it does seriously inconvenience a very minor sport.

the end justifies the means ???

B'Man

Jumpy

Bananaman wrote: »

Once minorities start to be persecuted, erroneously using "the greater good" as the justification - jackboot sales go through the roof.




the end justifies the means ???

B'Man

Heh. You know you are talking about guns here right?

Mr Man

Bananaman wrote: »

Once minorities start to be persecuted, erroneously using "the greater good" as the justification - jackboot sales go through the roof.

First they came for those with guns?

I'm with Jumpy on this.

Jacobo

Mr Man wrote: »

First they came for those with guns?

I'm with Jumpy on this.

We're not hurting anyone. If we did, we'd all be in jail now, as an Garda knows exactly what we look like, where we live and what firearms we have

bustershark

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

Sparks

Jumpy wrote: »

I am sure everyone on this forum will swear blind that they keep their guns in the equivalent of Fort Knox

Actually, they don't have to swear. They wouldn't get them without a home inspection by the gardai and meeting set standards in security - so in essence, the Gardai are the ones doing the swearing.

they are still getting stolen from those that dont put as much effort into keeping them locked up.

No, they're not. I hate to contradict a Minister, but we've seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this has ever happened to the firearms he's concerned about here. Shotguns, yes - but he's not cracking down on shotguns, even though all the cases I can think of where a licenced firearm was abused to harm someone by its owner (even in suicide cases) were cases involving shotguns. I mean, for heaven's sake, he can't even tell us how many of these 'deadly' 9mm glocks are licenced today. Hell, the figures from June this year and the same figures from October do not match up. And not for this year, where you'd think the numbers would rise as more are licenced in July, August and September, but for years past. And they're out by 40 or 50 each time.
That's not a reliable source of information.

ranger4

bustershark wrote: »

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

would be great if all the illegal firearms are removed from our isle but just banning legaly held licenced sportsmen and womens firearms will have no impact what so ever with the crimmy scum who are killing themselfs (which i doint mind) allong with all the innocent people which are loosing their lives to thease bastards, Its about time the government grew some balls and legislate to cage thease bastards for ever, a massive prison building plan should be implemented to house thease scum, it would create thousands of badly needed jobs in many sectors allong with removing thousands of scum from society.

José Alaninho

bustershark wrote: »

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

Criminals will continue to acquire firearms whatever way they can. They are imported in huge quantities along with drugs shipments as 'deal sweeteners' etc. They are not going into their local super and applying for a license for christ's sake! When will you learn? If you ban legally-held handguns in this country, not only will you be destroying the entire sporting life of some of the safest and most responsible people in the country (as attested by their local gardaí), but you will also NOT be making a single solitary dent in the guns + drugs + criminals problem.

Ahhhh progress....:rolleyes:

Edit: Ranger beat me to it!

Vegeta

bustershark wrote: »

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

You do realise that it is already illegal to have an unlicensed firearm yeah.

By banning licensed firearms, that's all you will actually achieve. Impact on firearms crime is nil. Criminals don't participate in the minority sports so they don't give a sh1t if you cant license them

More handguns are found in single drug shipments than are licensed throughout the whole country. So lets hear that again, every single legally held handgun would have to be stolen and it would still be less than one illegal shipment.

Fair play to FF though, they really are trying to make it as easy as possible not to vote for them.

José Alaninho

Vegeta wrote: »

Fair play to FF though, they really are trying to make it as easy as possible not to vote for them.

F**kin' A

Sparks

If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

The gun used in the east wall murder was (according to garda detectives) found in a wall on the estate where someone had hidden it. An outside wall, as in the kind along an alley or seperating houses.
Last I checked, civilians weren't in the habit of storing really rather expensive bits of hardware that they were responsible for in broken bricks in walls outside their homes.
So if you had eliminated the minority sport in september when it was first suggested, Aidan would still be dead at the hands of a 16-year-old today.

Grizzly 45

Mr Man wrote: »

First they came for those with guns?

I'm with Jumpy on this.

Hey! Lets lock up all the Muslims who are Saudais,belong to the Whabbist sect in Ireland who have pilots liscenses,or are chemists.They are only a minority here that have the potential to be terrorists thru their belifs and professions.And it wont inconvience the rest of the Muslim or Christian community and no doubt stop a 911 or underground,...well DART bombing!
Same dangerous logic,and yes what Pastor Niemoller that you are taking the p*ss of of said holds true for anyone or any group.:(

dresden8

bustershark wrote: »

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

The same could be said for martial arts or boxing. Go to those forums and see how far you get.

If the Minister really wants to save lives he should look at these statistics

http://www.iws.ie/drowning-statistics-page.html

That's nearly 2,000 people dead between 1996 and 2007.

Clearly he should immediately ban all water sports and impose a 100 yard limit around large bodies of water, after all we don't need to do them, we have lungs, not gills.

Won't somebody please think of the children?

murph226

Jumpy wrote: »

To be fair, I would rather sign one that makes sure the ban goes ahead.

I see you're from Limerick Jumpy, I suppose you think banning target pistols will reduce gun crime in your area?:rolleyes:

dresden8

IRLConor wrote: »

Your post about Lisbon was suitable for the Politics forum, not for here. That's why it was deleted.

Agreed

IRLConor wrote: »

Very true. General elections are a sure way of catching their attention.



So if the government held a referendum to include a specific right to hunt in the constitution you'd vote against them out of spite? .

Eh, no.

IRLConor wrote: »

Protest votes are utterly counter-productive for us. In the past few general elections the candidates who attracted the protest votes tended to be the Green Party, Sinn Fein and the various Socialist parties. None of those would be good news for shooting or hunting. Protest votes in a referendum make even less sense since they have historically (at least in my memory) not been a divisive issue among the big parties, hence even if the politicians did listen to you (which they won't) you have no political leverage with them. FF don't fear a SWP majority in the Dail, they do fear a FG one.

By all means, fight to make shooting, hunting and firearms ownership a political issue when there's a general election but be careful that you don't bite off your nose to spite your face in the process.

Unfortunately the Minister seems full intent on doing what he wants. The only way to stop him is to get him out.

The only way to get him out is to make the government fall. The greens are staying put as they're facing into an abyss.

Barring an asteroid strike on Leinster House (when they're there) a failed Lisbon vote is the only thing likely to bring down the government. Asking nicely got us nowhere.

Otherwise our choice is to slink off quietly into the night with our tails between our legs like the IPSA did.

Tribunius

bustershark wrote: »

Guns don't kill sheets of paper...

I'm sure you're all upstanding members of society, but guns are guns are guns.
They are a deadly weapon.
The sooner they're all eradicated from this island of ours, for whatever purpose, the better. If a minority sport is a casualty of war, then it's an acceptable price to pay.

So how do you feel about archery and the javelin?

They were originally invented as weapons and probably still are used as such somewhere in the Brazilian rain forest. Would you like them banned too?

The sports based around them are minority ones too.

Tribunius

I have some questions for all those passing through here with the opinion that the ban is a good thing.

1. What do you think this ban will achieve?

2. Why are you so afraid?

Tackleberrywho

dresden8 wrote: »

Foxhunter,

Petitions do eff all.

I already had one post deleted for mentioning the dreaded "L" word, but I'll put it another way and see if I get it past.

Politicians generally only look to one thing.

Votes.

Write to the Minister, your Local Councillors and TD's.

Tell them you won't be voting FF or Green, or for any opposition TD that supports these moves in any local elections or general elections, and tell them why. If the government come before the people with a vote on "Any Other Issue" you will vote against the government for the exact same reasons.

The Minister is acting the big man (ironically) because currently he has the power to do what he wants.

It's time to remind him that we loan him that power temporarily.

I wrote a letter, and recieved a reply from the taoiseach. I was very civil in my letter and i did recieve a reply stating that the Taoiseach would speak to his Justice minister regarding the matter. And that from this all further details would be forwarded onto this.

so guys get pen to paper, fingers to keyboard and be more constructive.
Giving out on the internet will solve nothing.

if I recieve no further correspondance in the next week, I'll write another letter, to every TD in the Dáil if I have to. Excuse the pun, but the pen is mightier than the sword.
I echoed in my letter the revenue gained by sports tourism in the country, Shooting competitions etc..;)

Jacobo

Tribunius wrote: »

So how do you feel about archery and the javelin?

They were originally invented as weapons and probably still are used as such somewhere in the Brazilian rain forest. Would you like them banned too?

The sports based around them are minority ones too.

Don't forget fencing. It is contributing to our growing knife culture!

And boxing and martial arts! They are contributing to our growing bar brawl culture!

(BTW, now that I think of it, isn't competition shooting a form of martial art?)

packas

foxhunter wrote: »

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stopthefirearmsban/index.html

Please sign the petition at the above link to try and stop the ban on handguns
you will be asked for a donation but you do not have to make one.

Regards to every one.

Hi Foxhunter. Regarding the donations. What will that be used for & who will have control of it?

Bananaman

Packas,

I think you can ignore the donation - it is a function of the website hosting the petition - not the petition itself.

B'Man

packas

Bananaman wrote: »

Packas,

I think you can ignore the donation - it is a function of the website hosting the petition - not the petition itself.

B'Man

No worries B'Man.

foxhunter

packas wrote: »

Hi Foxhunter. Regarding the donations. What will that be used for & who will have control of it?

B Man summed it up really Packas
Cheers.

cavan shooter

Gentlemen, further to the posts, the most prolific sport using deadly weapons is the game of hurling. As anyone can attest the beatings given by these wooden terror instruments are vile. Knee cappings during the troubles were frequently carried out with these things. Children are handed these things at 4-5 and trained to be aggressive. For God sake ban hurleys. Now you think Im being ridiculous but I can giving enough air time get people agitated. I call it the power of the Plaebs

A gun is a hunk of steel, the weekest link in it is the nut holding on to the trigger and there is no hunger to tackle them. The do gooders think prison is not right, a Guard cant arrest the pluckers the wrong way or he's out, Apologise to the Court and give a hard luck story about a deprived child hood and youll walk. No, no hunger to actually tackle the shlits, but ban the hunk of steel dont deal with the cause

Screw drivers have been used to kill, bare hands and feet have been used to kill. We have spineless politicians who wont tackle the people who use these things, and We dont have a decent PR person to argue our points thats the problem.

I hear about the gun that shot the man in east wall, I am stunned by the silence in relation to the little pastard that did it. Hell go to Oberstown or St Pats, where the little **** will carry his head high cause what he did his a badge to these people. Do the crime/Do the time and make him a lesson to all.

Hard labour should be brought back:D

BTW I think a bit of Trolling was going on there (maybe Im wrong)

Rant over.........:o

fathersymes

cavan shooter wrote: »

We dont have a decent PR person to argue our points thats the problem.

Exactly! The power in PR is very very powerful, PR companies can get anything printed and spin a twist on any story. A good PR campaign would embarrass that uninformed charlatan Aherne and highlight his smokescreen.

How much would a PR campaign cost? Perhaps the NARGC could foot the bill.

bunny shooter

fathersymes wrote: »

...............How much would a PR campaign cost? Perhaps the NARGC could foot the bill.

SSAI, NTSA and NRAI must have funds too ?

Sparks

SSAI, NRAI, ICPSA would all have funding; so would the larger grounds like Courtlough, Lough Bo, Harbour House, Hilltop, MNSCI, etc.
(NTSA's cut off from funding at the moment so I'm not sure they can kick in very much to all of this).

Of course, the very first question will be "what do we spend the money on?", or more specifically, "what kind of shooting gets promoted most?" - and right there is where the arguments will start.

IRLConor

bunny shooter wrote: »

SSAI, NTSA and NRAI must have funds too ?

I don't know about the SSAI organisations or the NRAI but last time I saw, there wasn't a hell of a lot of money in the NTSA.

If anyone wants to spend money on a PR campaign feel free to PM me your details and I'll put you in contact with some of my colleagues.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

..........Of course, the very first question will be "what do we spend the money on?", or more specifically, "what kind of shooting gets promoted most?" - and right there is where the arguments will start.

I think the time has come for ALL types of shooting to come together and to fight as ONE organisation and to forget the petty bickering that seems to be going on before ALL of us have to stop shooting 'cause it looks like the writings on the wall for ALL firearms irregardless of what they are used for.

fathersymes

I don't have a pistol, but thats irrelevant, I don't want them after my rifles next.

So I'll start the ball rolling and pledge 100euros towards a PR fund.

Next step is to appoint a representative to brief a PR agency and establish a fee.

The representative is the difficult bit!

bunny shooter

Noble gesture fatersymes, however I am currently paying fees to 3 x participants in the FCP and don't see why I should pay again.

IRLConor

bunny shooter wrote: »

I think the time has come for ALL types of shooting to come together and to fight as ONE organisation and to forget the petty bickering that seems to be going on before ALL of us have to stop shooting 'cause it looks like the writings on the wall for ALL firearms irregardless of what they are used for.

Find me a person (or group of people) who will be acceptable to all shooters and I'll agree with you.

When it comes to the point where the DoJ says "You can have X or Y but not both" a rep who comes from an X background will choose X, a rep who comes from a Y background will choose Y and a rep who stamps their foot and says "Both or nothing!" will damage the sport(s) more than either of the first two possibly could.

Consider the following question:

"What do you propose that we as a shooting community could (in theory) compromise on to save the sport as a whole?"

If you get all the shooters in Ireland to agree on a common answer then, and only then, will you be able to have a body who can represent all the shooters in the country.

Bananaman

If you get all the shooters in Ireland to agree on a common answer

I think they will all agree to not accept a ban on firearms - of any kind, that we already responsibly, own.

I think they will all accept that there isn't a problem being caused by legally held firearms - of any kind.

I think they will all agree that they do not wish to have their firearms confiscated and the Minister to announce that he has removed a threat to the public safety.

IRLConor

Bananaman wrote: »

I think they will all agree to not accept a ban on firearms - of any kind, that we already responsibly, own.

Say the DoJ said "Right, we're banning all centrefire rifles over .270", which would you prefer:

• Person A: "No! I will not accept that!"
  DoJ: "Tough titty, it's happening whether you like it or not"
  
  
• Person B: "Look, can we compromise and at least keep some of them?"
  DoJ: "OK, let's talk."

I'm a "half a loaf is better than no bread at all" kind of guy.

Bananaman

I am not

I would ask "why?" and try to understand and help solve the problem
rather than trying to find a compromise to a solution for which there is no problem

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I think they will all agree to not accept a ban on firearms - of any kind, that we already responsibly, own.

Two points -
1. We don't really have any choice in accepting or not, only in protesting or not.
2. You don't know the firearms community well if you think that it's so self-sacrificing. It sounds cynical to say so, but remember that we already threw air and smallbore pistols "under the bus" in the 90s in favour of fullbore firearms. And remember that the single time the entire community got off its collective arse to do something about something was when the Minister was going to hike the licence fees.

I know that sounds a bit negative, but, well, there it is I'm afraid.
We're more sinned against than sinning, certainly - but that doesn't make us perfect in all our faculties either.

MortgageMan

Hello Gentlemen & Ladies

In addition to the I-Petition there is also a paper Petition, I have attached a copy here.

This petition has been drawn up by members of a number of different shooting clubs and gun dealers throughout Ireland, encompassing Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol. It is a grassroots group who have come together with the intention of bringing the voice of sportsmen, sportswomen, Hunters and Clubs throughout Ireland to the forefront in this time of uncertainty.

Our governing bodies are doing great work trying to further our cause with the DOJ and the petition is a backup for these groups. The petition will show the real support throught Ireland from Shooters, Clubs, Families and all other interested parties. If firearms are restricted as has been stated the financial and social lose to communities throughout Ireland will be vast.

The petition by this time should be available in nearly all shooting clubs , ranges and dealers throughout Ireland. The response so far has been fantastic and hopefully will continue to grow.

Please show your support for your sport by signing the petition. To find out more please ask your range owner or firearms dealer for more details.

bunny shooter

IRLConor wrote: »

...........Consider the following question:

"What do you propose that we as a shooting community could (in theory) compromise on to save the sport as a whole?"..........

IMHO I don't think "Olympic" shooting is in any danger (and i'm not stirring here).

The practical boys are disbanding. Will this be enough for DOJ?

Rifles wise I personally would 'surrender' .223 and anything above .308.

Pistols everything over .22lr.

Shotguns anything with a capacity over 3 rounds.

A person should be allowed maybe 10 x firearms depending on proof of usage and secure storage and/or allow clubs have purpose built armouries for members firearms.

Only condition would be that this is end of restrictions by DOJ

IRLConor

Bananaman wrote: »

IRLConor wrote:

I'm a "half a loaf is better than no bread at all" kind of guy.

I am not

And that's precisely why we'll never have a single body representing all shooters in this country. Shooting is a big collection of sports and people are different. That's life.

Bananaman wrote: »

I would ask "why?" and try to understand and help solve the problem
rather than trying to find a compromise to a solution for which there is no problem

The problem is that this country has a serious crime problem and gun crimes both sell newspapers and make for good government-bashing material in the Dail.

The "solution" (a gun ban) appears to have already been decided upon. The Minister has repeatedly said that he was going to further restrict the ownership of handguns and as a politician he will be very wary of changing his mind since changing your mind seems to be considered a fatal flaw in politics. I would be astonished if he gave up on it now.

The one thing we can lobby for (not really negotiate, since to negotiate you need leverage and we have almost none) is a structure to the ban that would inconvenience the least number of shooters.