Is collective punishment done in all army's ?

DublinDes

Watching the reality show Escape to the Legion, they mention how the Legion uses collective punishment to pressurize the recruits. So
(A) Do all army's practise it ?
(B) Is the Foreign Legion's use of it particulairly harsh compared to other army's ?

Poccington

Our Army practices it, as in if 1 person ****s up the whole platoon gets it in the neck.

I haven't seen the programme so I can't really make a comparison though.

PeakOutput

its fairly understandable why its done

if one person messes up in the field it can get other people killed so it must be instilled on them that they have responsibility for others. i dont care if i get in trouble in college / school / work or whatever so im unlikely to change. if my friend gets affected by my actions its a different story

ex_infantry man

PeakOutput wrote: »

its fairly understandable why its done

if one person messes up in the field it can get other people killed so it must be instilled on them that they have responsibility for others. i dont care if i get in trouble in college / school / work or whatever so im unlikely to change. if my friend gets affected by my actions its a different story

ye but our "defence force" gives a stupid essay to be done by the next mornings parade of usually 20 pages which is impossible task

iceage

ex_infantry man wrote: »

ye but our "defence force" gives a stupid essay to be done by the next mornings parade of usually 20 pages which is impossible task

Thats so funny..your taking the p*ss right?......please tell me you are taking the p*ss!

Hang on.......Boing!!! is that a bounce i hear?

In my opinion

iceage wrote: »

Thats so funny..your taking the p*ss right?......please tell me you are taking the p*ss!

Hang on.......Boing!!! is that a bounce i hear?

No ball at all. Its corrective action. Focus your mind on what you did and how it can be rectified.
Never in the DF is corrective action used to humiliate however these corrective actions are used for minor non chargeable breaches.

arybvtcw0eolkf

iceage wrote: »

Thats so funny..your taking the p*ss right?......please tell me you are taking the p*ss!

Hang on.......Boing!!! is that a bounce i hear?

Nope, 'tis the truth

Manic Moran

It's a common technique in American Basic Training, just to try to get people used to the concept of teamwork. However, outside of that environment, I've not seen it. Usually just the offender is punished, and depending on what happened, his first line leader, and so on up the line as appropriate.

That said, there are actions which can be taken which will affect entire units, even though not meant as a punishment. For example, if a weapon goes missing on exercise, the base is locked down and all leaves cancelled until it shows up again.

NTM

iceage

Iceage wanders off muttering " Wouldn't have happened in my day....." We are talking about recruits right? And we are talking about collective punishment right...ie. One guy continually drops the ball, the whole Squad/Patrol/Troop gets it in the neck.

Mr. Presentable

DublinDes wrote: »

Watching the reality show Escape to the Legion, they mention how the Legion uses collective punishment to pressurize the recruits. So
(A) Do all army's practise it ?
(B) Is the Foreign Legion's use of it particulairly harsh compared to other army's ?

Remarks withdrawn as they might be offensive to the original post

Poccington

ex_infantry man wrote: »

ye but our "defence force" gives a stupid essay to be done by the next mornings parade of usually 20 pages which is impossible task

That's funny, I finished training this year and I can only think of 1 time that we were given an essay and that was after over an hour of beasting.

You'll find some NCO's go down the route of essays etc. but there's still plenty of NCO's that believe in good old fashioned physical punishment rather than poxy essays.

iceage

Poccington wrote: »

That's funny, I finished training this year and I can only think of 1 time that we were given an essay and that was after over an hour of beasting.

You'll find some NCO's go down the route of essays etc. but there's still plenty of NCO's that believe in good old fashioned physical punishment rather than poxy essays.

Ahhhh theres that word, Beasting.....still makes me shiver just to see th word.
So the essay is like the final dig!

All is not lost then, good, and I take it what you mean by physical punishment is an extention to the usual days PT ie. shedloads more of it as fast or as far as you can! people usually take an awful lot of notice of this type of Collective/Corrective punishment, in so far as you will not forget it in a hurry. Good stuff.


Nipplenuts I'm still laughing at that. :P

Hard Larry

DublinDes wrote: »

Watching the reality show Escape to the Legion, they mention how the Legion uses collective punishment to pressurize the recruits. So
(A) Do all army's practise it ?
(B) Is the Foreign Legion's use of it particulairly harsh compared to other army's ?

I think I know that show you're talking about...the one with Bear Grylls right?

It depicts Old School training from the Foriegn Legion, although I'm sure some methods and punishments are retained in their standards of training today.

The reason their training was/is so harsh is because their recruits have always come from such diverse and harsh backgrounds and the Legion has to give them a shock to the system to keep them in line. Basically getting rid of any one who has and individualists mentality and making them work for each other. Just as they would need to do to survive in combat.

Although I'm sure many an Irish soldier could regail you with horror stories of their recruit training (and rightly so, its no easy task to walk in from civvie street to become a soldier) the main difference would be in the harshness of the training. Potential Legionairres could/would face time in detention for misdemeanors whereas Irish soldiers would only face a parading in front of their commanding officers.

The Foreign Legions training is unique in western europe compared to other nations as the Legion is an unique organisation itself.

ex_infantry man

our directive staff gave out essays like they were hot dinners i can recall the whole platoon getting the 20 page essay on the importance of time keeping in the army for not being in and out of the shower and dressed and on parade in ten mins after pt and one of the lads got another ten pages for something he did himself from another cpl all to be done the next morning this was a regular occurance for us or else the half push up

ChocolateSauce

It is a human rights abuse according to the Geneva Convention.

concussion

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It is a human rights abuse according to the Geneva Convention.

What is?

(Link please)

Tribunius

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It is a human rights abuse according to the Geneva Convention.

The geneva conventions (there are four of them) have nothing to do with this topic. They have nothing to do with how you treat your own troops. They are concerned with the treatment of prisoners of war and the protection of civilians in times of war.

Manic Moran

Hard Larry wrote: »

Potential Legionairres could/would face time in detention for misdemeanors whereas Irish soldiers would only face a parading in front of their commanding officers.

In the US Army, a parading in front of the commanding officer can result in detention. As a company commander, I can lock one of my soldiers away for a week. Punishments can get harder the further up the chain you go, so a battalion commander can lock a soldier away for two weeks.

NTM

dahamster

Hard Larry wrote: »

Legionairres could/would face time in detention for misdemeanors whereas Irish soldiers would only face a parading in front of their commanding officers.

Is the digger gone?

Hard Larry

dahamster wrote: »

Is the digger gone?

No the digger is still there just not as widely used anymore.

To clarify my point...
Its not likely a recruit in the Irsh DF would face detention for a minor failing in his duties or minor misdemeanor however a potential Legionaire could.

Fishtits

Collective punishment is a time proven solution to poor teamwork, the group will heal itself etc. Its common in many civvy sports - rugby being a prime example.

Hard Larry, you seem to have an inside track re les regiment etranger,

My experience working with these guys is that they were a real rag tag bunch, hell bent on mission accomplishment but thick as f**k if it didn't go to plan... Officers decide, the troops act, no questions (even when it goes tits up) inflexible maybe?

Needs a rethink in this day and age...

Amusing guys to be on the piss with none the less...

Pherekydes

Never had to do an essay. They used to keep us in on Wednesday nights and at the weekends. That sorted the messers out pronto.

I think they should bring back decimation.

Hard Larry

Fishtits wrote: »

Collective punishment is a time proven solution to poor teamwork, the group will heal itself etc. Its common in many civvy sports - rugby being a prime example.

Hard Larry, you seem to have an inside track re les regiment etranger,

My experience working with these guys is that they were a real rag tag bunch, hell bent on mission accomplishment but thick as f**k if it didn't go to plan... Officers decide, the troops act, no questions (even when it goes tits up) inflexible maybe?

Needs a rethink in this day and age...

Amusing guys to be on the piss with none the less...

Have a mate who served with them in the 1st Gulf War and know another bloke who regailed me of his story of being on the run across France.

Was drinking with a handfull of them in the Blue Beret Club in the Leb. We tryed to steal a Kepi Blanc from them. It didn't end well.

iceage

I bet that got messy. Steal a Kepi Blanc......braver man than many here mate.(or p*ssed up to your eyeballs):rolleyes:

Fishtits

Hard Larry wrote: »

Was drinking with a handfull of them in the Blue Beret Club in the Leb. We tryed to steal a Kepi Blanc from them. It didn't end well.

LOL

Fishtits

Hard Larry wrote: »

Was drinking with a handfull of them in the Blue Beret Club in the Leb. We tryed to steal a Kepi Blanc from them. It didn't end well.

LOL

cushtac

dahamster wrote: »

Is the digger gone?

The digger was done up some years ago & used by the Prison Service to house elderly sex offenders. It has since been vacated due to cutbacks.

-boris

What punishments do the pdf and rdf use?

greenarrow

I am not sure of the punishments given in the RDF completely but I do know of a few.
One is the age old essays. I have seen them on camps and courses. Not really in the sense of collective punishment, but enough to ensure that troops switch on. Simple one page essays on things like why its important to be on time, to listen to the NCO, to shut up when an NCO is speaking.
Simple things that switch said troops on.
And then if they mess up again it goes to two pages, then three and so on.

Sometimes an NCO might take someone to the side and give them a bollocking or have a word with them. It depends on what the story is.

People that are continually a problem are dealt with by being paraded before the RSM or duty officer.

But in terms of punishment for more severe issues, its a case of RTU and getting them "waddied". Much in the same way it would be for the PDF because they are subject to military law. I use that in the case of theft or serious assault. It has to be warranted, but when it happens I have seen it being dealt with by the book.

As regards punishment in the PDF, well you have to understand that us NCOs do have it hard too. Especially when you are looking at some of the handwriting.
Although I personally like to go the way of giving the dirty numbers out to those who mess up. It switches people on a whole lot more than essays ever do.

concussion

Examples of corrective actions which can be carried out are listed in TI 06-04 - Military Codes of Practice for Instructors and Students in the Training Environment.

I'm sure it works well for the PDF, however, not enough corrective action is carried out in the RDF - there's too much 'ah shure, they're giving up their free time, I'll have a word with them' blah blah going on

greenarrow

I'd agree with you there man.

I think the problem with the RDF is that there is too much emphasis put on A7. So much so, that people are afraid to pull people up on anything in case they get lumbered with a charge.
Which is absolutely nonsense in my eyes.

At the end of the day, people are subject to military law. Instilling discripline in your troops through corrective action is not bullying. But there are people in the RDF, who read the A7 and take it literally. It has been at the expense of cop-on.
Which has left many people afraid to punish troops.

I draw a line that distinguishes bullying and professionalism. And expecting your troops you get their act together, and asserting your authority, is allowed. As long as you are not abusing that authority.

People in the RDF need to just grasp the concept of discipline more.
I think they are too afraid of having their career ruined with an A7 incident. Which, as a reservist, is harder to build than someone in the PDF because you would have to juggle your job and your military career.

Local-womanizer

Bullying is unfair treatment towards one person,surely collective punishment would make sure that dosent happen?!The whole A7 thing is adhered to to closely imo.

Theres some people who you would love see get "sorted out".

greenarrow

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Bullying is unfair treatment towards one person,surely collective punishment would make sure that dosent happen?!The whole A7 thing is adhered to to closely imo.

True. But the way to do it is to start off with a collective punishment.
E.G. Greadaíg Fuibh. And then the rest of the platoon will have a word in the ear of your troublemaker/heatseeker.

Then if that doesn't work, you can't keep creasing all your troops because of one or two in the platoon. Then you start with corrective actions on whoever the individual is. Essays, DFRs...whatever takes your fancy.
And obviously you're going to have to single people out individually. But its only the individuals that are deserving of it. There is no way that is bullying.

TI-06-04 is there, but there is no set method for implementing it. Its down to an NCO/officer to implement it and use appropriate discretion.
But you need to be fair minded in doing so!


But I would agree with you that there is far too much emphasis on A7 in the army. You can't do this, you can't say that...this is A7, so is this.
Granted it did kick the army into touch with relation to bullying and so on (and it was needed at the time) but it has been the ruin of the army too. Which is probably the one thing that PDF and RDF personnel agree on.

-boris

essays!Thats a strange one for the army,i mean they never work in cshool....personally My handwriting is atrociois
What exactly does being "wadied" involve and what is "Greadaíg Fuibh"?

greenarrow

Your spelling and handwriting are both the same.
Greadaíg Fuibh is marking time. And when troops are getting the thighs up parallel to the ground for a fair while, they'll switch on for you fairly sharp.

The essays work some of the time. Not all the time mind.

-boris

atrocious and school,satisfied?

Merely slips of the finger,I assure you,those damn apple keyboards.They dont work in school,very simply because everyone opts just not to do it,a sort of boycott,which i suppose would be considered a mutiny in the defence forces,so therefore not an option.yet,writing is preferable to physical exertion as a form of punishment.

iceage

Easy Tiger, my spelling's even worse....:(

greenarrow

Exactly. but after a while if they are not switched on then its a morning parade before the CO or the RSM.

Like, collective punishment will work to a degree. But one in a platoon, and punishing all your troops because of that person, is wrong. Deal with them as a whole, but be fair in doing it too.

Then you go down the individual route. Not bullying at all.
But the whole A7 has made people afraid to pull anyone up in case they put a redress in against them. Shame really.
But the way you get around that is to make sure that you are not left on your own with the person that is on your radar.

-boris

iceage wrote: »

Easy Tiger, my spelling's even worse....:(

So far,so good!

iceage

http://bp0.blogger.com/_1uvgu6i8IEE/R-pwEFA0eCI/AAAAAAAAAmA/fr7QKd5f4co/s1600-h/2532+h+Press+ups+two.JPG

Adopt the position.....works a treat, and plenty of them

Local-womanizer

iceage wrote: »

http://bp0.blogger.com/_1uvgu6i8IEE/R-pwEFA0eCI/AAAAAAAAAmA/fr7QKd5f4co/s1600-h/2532+h+Press+ups+two.JPG

Adopt the position.....works a treat, and plenty of them

The lad at the end seems to be enjoying it a bit too much!

-boris

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The lad at the end seems to be enjoying it a bit too much!

Ya there is something highly unnerving about the ginger guy too....

iceage

Jeez yeah fair point.....

Poccington

iceage wrote: »

http://bp0.blogger.com/_1uvgu6i8IEE/R-pwEFA0eCI/AAAAAAAAAmA/fr7QKd5f4co/s1600-h/2532+h+Press+ups+two.JPG

Adopt the position.....works a treat, and plenty of them

They're not even in the half press up and some of them are still in the rest position, shower of hats.

Anyway, what's all this talk of essays? I think I trained in the wrong Brigade :P

iceage

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_01/BootCampMOS_468x309.jpg

http://www.warren.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080626-F-0474R-0256.jpg

http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/homepagephoto/2008-07/hires_080723-N-2959L-050.jpg

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://bp0.blogger.com/_SVE_bH-aP2k/R9bWfHHEtwI/AAAAAAAAAMU/i2pg46oPzl8/s320/PushUp99.jpg&imgrefurl=http://inverbras.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html&usg=__JrUApUpRiBYGygq0vwc7KBH2PmU=&h=320&w=240&sz=17&hl=en&start=63&um=1&tbnid=QOIMdCnknkr6OM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbritish%2Barmy%2Bpush%2Bup%26start%3D42%26ndsp%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


Thought I'd throw in a few, lest there be any favoritism. Funny couldn't find any IDF ones...

2nd and 3rd ones are my favorites, yeah essays.............................................................................................Nope don't member them!!!

What was it our SSgt used to say.......oh yeah.


DOWN.......................................................
UP..
DOWN.......................................................
UP..
DOWN.......................................................


He used to say that a lot, we soon got the idea.

greenarrow

We were discussing methods of punishment in the army. Collective punishment and then individual punishments. And then the example of essays came along.

Although we are not talking about your typical Leaving Cert essays here.

And then the conversation steered towards A7 and then it went pear shaped

Poccington

iceage wrote: »

2nd and 3rd ones are my favorites, yeah essays.............................................................................................Nope don't member them!!!

What was it our SSgt used to say.......oh yeah.


DOWN.......................................................
UP..
DOWN.......................................................
UP..
DOWN.......................................................


He used to say that a lot, we soon got the idea.

The worst is

"On my command
Down (Cue being left in the half push up for about 2 minutes)
Up"

Then repeat a few times and you're left in a heap and there was a valuable lesson learned

iceage

Memories...........:D Sorry green you must forgive, ole git here.

greenarrow

No worries. Although I tend to count the first mistake as one essay. The second as two pages. One and two makes three pages.

Ah it does work for switching people on.

Not into that push up lark myself. I think its abuse of rank.
I never liked it when an NCO pulled myself or my mates up on something and made us do them. Always lost respect for them when they did.
So I don't avail of it.

Manic Moran

Greadaíg Fuibh is marking time

What happened to "Boulaigh Am?" Or was that just a too-literal, un-official direct translation?

Poccington wrote: »

The worst is

"On my command
Down (Cue being left in the half push up for about 2 minutes)
Up"

Then repeat a few times and you're left in a heap and there was a valuable lesson learned

The one that really gets the groaning from us is 'Half-way down!.. now rock side to side!'

Ah, Basic training...

"Half-right, face!" (almost invariably followed by...)
"Front leaning rest position... MOVE!"
"DOWN!!!!" (Response: "Attention to Detail!")
"UP!!!" ("Teamwork is the Key!")

NTM

iceage

Thats just nasty MM! (Iceage goes to try this right face thingy)







Oooooooh that smarts..:D