Homosexuality as a Sin(off topic from other thread)

MatthewVII

Nodin wrote: »

I had cancer, had to get half a limb chopped off and part of my skull. Robert Mugabe seems fine, and he's about 30 years or more older than me. And a lot of death and suffering ahead, in the "Evil" stakes.

Clearly you haven't quite been humbled enough yet to throw yourself at God in desperation. Maybe you should cut your losses and convert before God goes after the rest of your body?

Nodin

MatthewVII wrote: »

Clearly you haven't quite been humbled enough yet to throw yourself at God in desperation. Maybe you should cut your losses and convert before God goes after the rest of your body?

...or - maybe - I haven't killed enough people and caused enough human suffering. God does need souls up there after all....

sink

JimiTime wrote: »

Cue me thinking that this was such a provoking, villifying and untaught response, that I'd give it the response I felt it deserved. Nowhere, have I been arguing that homosexuals should not be allowed teach, that is a completely different subject. As you can see above, this has always been about the report of young kids learning about 'alternative lifestyles' in their curriculum. You seem to agree above when you say, 'Teaching them about reproductive anatomy and their function as well as STD's and preventative measures is enough.' That would be my view on it.

Hmm , apologies about the confusion. I must have misread your initial retort. It seems we have closer views on the issue than either of us realised.

wolfsbane

Nodin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Hmm. So God cannot use means to stop the wicked? He cannot kill him with cancer? Have the police 'by chance' pass by just as he prepares to kill someone? Or have the target change his normal routine for some unforseen reason?

Even when God sends an angel to kill the wicked, He normally uses means:
I had cancer, had to get half a limb chopped off and part of my skull. Robert Mugabe seems fine, and he's about 30 years or more older than me. And a lot of death and suffering ahead, in the "Evil" stakes.

Que pasa?

If I had said all cancer is a punishment from God on the wicked, you would have a point. But I specifically denied that.

If I had said God always punishes the wicked or prevents them doing evil, you would have a point. But I specifically denied that.

So we have some good people suffering and some evil people breezing through life. We also have many good people reaping the benefits of wholesome lifestyles and many wicked people reaping the consequences of their debauchery. And a spectrum in between.

All this is what the Bible leads us to expect.

The discussion here developed onto God intervening to frustrate man putting into action what he freely willed to do. I pointed out that God uses means - eg., sickness, armed force, change of routine - to effect His will.

Mugabe is heading for hell, if he does not repent. There he will pay for all the harm he has done to his fellowman, as well as for his disrespect of God.

You need to make sure you do not appear before the same Judge, to answer for your sins. It will be little comfort to you to see Mugabe go down before you.

sHnaCk

God is good ALL the time!

Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long ... The person that has seen me has seen the Father too... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.

So, at what point and where in Jesus's ministry did God or Jesus for that fact give anyone cancer, blindness or ANY other disease?

Jesus also said that "...a house devided will fall". so, if God gives cancer etc. and Jesus has to continually heal it... well that is juxtaposed.


It is therefore inconsistant to believe that God makes people sick and Jesus heals. In Isaiah 53 it says that he was crucified for what we deserved so that we could get what he deserved! Think of it this way... you buy a stereo for cash, 2 years later you take it back to the shop and say that u no longer want it. The shopkeeper will obviously laugh at you! its the same with Jesus. OUR HEALING (in every aspect) IS PAID FOR ALREADY!!

It is blasphemy to think or believe that God wants us dead! in Hosea it says catagorically that "...too many of my people go to sleep early through lack of knowledge..."
It is our ignorance that keeps us believing that God is against us!!

How far have we come???? 2000 years ago sickness and disease was from satan and healing was from God... now sickness and disease is from God and healing may just be from satan??

Mickeroo

wolfsbane wrote: »

Nodin said:

If I had said all cancer is a punishment from God on the wicked, you would have a point. But I specifically denied that.

If I had said God always punishes the wicked or prevents them doing evil, you would have a point. But I specifically denied that.

So we have some good people suffering and some evil people breezing through life. We also have many good people reaping the benefits of wholesome lifestyles and many wicked people reaping the consequences of their debauchery. And a spectrum in between.

All this is what the Bible leads us to expect.

The discussion here developed onto God intervening to frustrate man putting into action what he freely willed to do. I pointed out that God uses means - eg., sickness, armed force, change of routine - to effect His will.

So if you admit theres good people suffering and bad people prospering as well as the opposite.....then why on earth do you think god is intervening at all?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Mugabe is heading for hell, if he does not repent. There he will pay for all the harm he has done to his fellowman, as well as for his disrespect of God.

You need to make sure you do not appear before the same Judge, to answer for your sins. It will be little comfort to you to see Mugabe go down before you.

If Nodin appears before this tyranical judge you speak of it sounds to me like he should punch him square in the jaw. He's a very bad judge if he would let someone like Mugabe off just because he repented,who in their right mind wants to worship somebody like that?

MatthewVII

sHnaCk wrote: »

How far have we come???? 2000 years ago sickness and disease was from satan and healing was from God... now sickness and disease is from God and healing may just be from satan??

As a matter of interest, how can sickness and disease be from Satan when God created the world and everything in it, including bacteria, viruses, parasites etc?

As for God using sickness as a tool, it doesn't seem consistent with real life. It's also impossible to say that God uses illness as a punishment for SOME evil, but just randomly for others, as that leaves no observable pattern. That's just more randomness with someone finding a pattern that isn't there.

wolfsbane

sHnaCk said:

God is good ALL the time!

We agree on that!

So, at what point and where in Jesus's ministry did God or Jesus for that fact give anyone cancer, blindness or ANY other disease?

God sent sickness to His saints in the OT - Job, for example, being given into the power of Satan for affliction. This was not for Job's sin, but for his growth in grace.

God sent fatal illness to David and Bathsheba's child, not for its punishment but for its parent's chastisement.

God sent sickness to His saints in the NT - the sinning saints in Corinth were struck down, some even dying, for their disorderly conduct.

God struck the Egyptians with many diseases in the OT. He killed Herod in the NT with worms.

Jesus also said that "...a house devided will fall". so, if God gives cancer etc. and Jesus has to continually heal it... well that is juxtaposed.

Our succeptibility to sickness comes only through the Fall - it is a consequence sent by God for man's sin. Just becasue God sent the sickness does not mean He is not free to heal it.

It is therefore inconsistant to believe that God makes people sick and Jesus heals. In Isaiah 53 it says that he was crucified for what we deserved so that we could get what he deserved! Think of it this way... you buy a stereo for cash, 2 years later you take it back to the shop and say that u no longer want it. The shopkeeper will obviously laugh at you! its the same with Jesus. OUR HEALING (in every aspect) IS PAID FOR ALREADY!!

But not in this life. We get ill and die now. One day we will be eternally well. If we ought not to be sick now, neither should we die now.

It is blasphemy to think or believe that God wants us dead! in Hosea it says catagorically that "...too many of my people go to sleep early through lack of knowledge..."
It is our ignorance that keeps us believing that God is against us!!

God is for us - and sickness and death may be used by Him to do us eternal good. That is your mistake, thinking our afflictions work for our harm.

How far have we come???? 2000 years ago sickness and disease was from satan and healing was from God... now sickness and disease is from God and healing may just be from satan??

That not how it was then or now. Then the Bible taught sickness came from God, mediated by Satan perhaps, but for our good and for the destruction of the wicked. Same today.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is for us - and sickness and death may be used by Him to do us eternal good. That is your mistake, thinking our afflictions work for our harm.

o_O

wolfsbane

Mickeroo said:

So if you admit theres good people suffering and bad people prospering as well as the opposite.....then why on earth do you think god is intervening at all?

Because He says so, and because I've experienced it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Mugabe is heading for hell, if he does not repent. There he will pay for all the harm he has done to his fellowman, as well as for his disrespect of God.

You need to make sure you do not appear before the same Judge, to answer for your sins. It will be little comfort to you to see Mugabe go down before you.
If Nodin appears before this tyranical judge you speak of it sounds to me like he should punch him square in the jaw. He's a very bad judge if he would let someone like Mugabe off just because he repented,who in their right mind wants to worship somebody like that?

Such is the nature of God's salvation: not for those who deserve it, not for those who earn it, but for repentant sinners who humbly receive it by faith alone.

If there were any who deserved to be saved, you would be right to think God unjust to condemn them and pardon murderers, etc. But there is none righteous, no not one - as the Bible tells us. All have merited eternal destruction.

God commends His love toward us by saving sinners.

nowimtalking

Well isnt it a good question?
But seriously does it matter?
For the majority proportion of homosexuals out there i am sure what god says doesnt matter! If their parents were disagreeing and they still are having homosexual feelings then religion isnt going to take them apart or is it?
Isnt it a natural feeling for them to be attracted to each other and i am sure if you need to debate it thats why god inspired the creation of "toys".

sHnaCk

I ask the same question...

So, at what point and where in Jesus's ministry did God or Jesus for that fact give anyone cancer, blindness or ANY other disease

So how did Jesus do it... did he say... "Oh i'm sorry, I cant heal you today cos that is the blindness from the Father..."

SIN IS TO THE SOUL AS DISEASE IS TO THE BODY

Mickeroo

wolfsbane wrote: »

Mickeroo said:

Because He says so, and because I've experienced it.

Care to elaborate? I understand if it's a personal thing and you don't want to.....

wolfsbane wrote: »

Such is the nature of God's salvation: not for those who deserve it, not for those who earn it, but for repentant sinners who humbly receive it by faith alone.

If there were any who deserved to be saved, you would be right to think God unjust to condemn them and pardon murderers, etc. But there is none righteous, no not one - as the Bible tells us. All have merited eternal destruction.

God commends His love toward us by saving sinners.

I'm not trying to be funny,but have you ever considered a job as a televangelist?

Nodin

wolfsbane wrote: »

So we have some good people suffering and some evil people breezing through life. We also have many good people reaping the benefits of wholesome lifestyles and many wicked people reaping the consequences of their debauchery. And a spectrum in between..

...thus leaving no discernible pattern of justice whatsoever. Very Old Testament.

sHnaCk wrote:

God is good ALL the time!..

....the Armenians, Jews, Kurds, and many other groups through out history seem to have had experiences which rather conflict with that.

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is for us - and sickness and death may be used by Him to do us eternal good. That is your mistake, thinking our afflictions work for our harm.!..

Seeing my affliction and deeds are rather minor in the greater scheme of things, one might wonder at the benefit of taking the time out to remove my right hand at the age of 33, seeing as my 'pool hall' days were well behind me, whilst leaving both of Brendan Smiths intact.

Thankfully, however, I had no faith to have a crisis of.

wolfsbane

Nodin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane

So we have some good people suffering and some evil people breezing through life. We also have many good people reaping the benefits of wholesome lifestyles and many wicked people reaping the consequences of their debauchery. And a spectrum in between..
...thus leaving no discernible pattern of justice whatsoever. Very Old Testament.

Oh, we do see some get their just deserts in this life. But it is not the whole story. Much is left to the Day of Judgment. That is infinitely more terrible for the guilty than anything meeted out here.

Every one appears before Christ on that day, to give an account. Justice will find its perfect fulfilment. All the perverts who escaped in this life, all those who secretly destroyed the lives or liberties of others, all the mighty men who caused terror in the land of the living. But all of the rest of us too - the 'minor' sinners. All who have lived in rebellion against their Creator. Each will receive his due.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
God is for us - and sickness and death may be used by Him to do us eternal good. That is your mistake, thinking our afflictions work for our harm.!.. Seeing my affliction and deeds are rather minor in the greater scheme of things, one might wonder at the benefit of taking the time out to remove my right hand at the age of 33, seeing as my 'pool hall' days were well behind me, whilst leaving both of Brendan Smiths intact.

As above - major sinners like Smith will get their just deserts. But so will minor sinners.

As to why God determined to take your hand, we don't know. Maybe to press upon you your mortality. Maybe to prevent you doing something a fully able person might do and be ruined by. God doesn't do anything for no good reason.

wolfsbane

sHnaCk wrote: »

I ask the same question...

So, at what point and where in Jesus's ministry did God or Jesus for that fact give anyone cancer, blindness or ANY other disease

So how did Jesus do it... did he say... "Oh i'm sorry, I cant heal you today cos that is the blindness from the Father..."

SIN IS TO THE SOUL AS DISEASE IS TO THE BODY

You are limiting the time to 3.5 years and to the incidents reported by the evangelists. But if you consider what Jesus said here to the man He had healed, you will note that sickness can be a judgment from God:
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.
And that day was the Sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.”
11 He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’”
12 Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” 15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

I've given you examples in the rest of the Bible where God makes ill or kills man in judgment. But here's a further example that shows Jesus uses sickness and death as judgment or chastisement:
Revelation 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

As to why God determined to take your hand, we don't know. Maybe to press upon you your mortality.

Why would God do this? Is that not an extremely petty and underhanded way of bringing people to him?

wolfsbane wrote:

Maybe to prevent you doing something a fully able person might do and be ruined by. God doesn't do anything for no good reason.

And take away his free will?

Nodin

wolfsbane wrote: »

As to why God determined to take your hand, we don't know. Maybe to press upon you your mortality. Maybe to prevent you doing something a fully able person might do and be ruined by. God doesn't do anything for no good reason.

.....which is, tbh, justification after the fact. I remember as a lad when that lack of logic - in relation to the suffering of "the poor" - struck me. Why precisely were Kampucheans/Cambodians & Africans etc suffering en masse? Children afflicted with 'river blindness'? Latin America, where Priests, Nuns and church workers were being tortured, raped and killed, with impunity.....It made no sense whatsoever.

And to get this back towards the topic, and the subject of sexuality...Here you have persons who are "given" a particular inclination, and are supposedly on Gods wrong side should they follow it (something which holds true for heterosexuals too, in certain circumstances). Again, it makes little sense. Is God giving you a tray to carry so he can play "trip up"?

wolfsbane

Nodin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
As to why God determined to take your hand, we don't know. Maybe to press upon you your mortality. Maybe to prevent you doing something a fully able person might do and be ruined by. God doesn't do anything for no good reason.
.....which is, tbh, justification after the fact. I remember as a lad when that lack of logic - in relation to the suffering of "the poor" - struck me. Why precisely were Kampucheans/Cambodians & Africans etc suffering en masse? Children afflicted with 'river blindness'? Latin America, where Priests, Nuns and church workers were being tortured, raped and killed, with impunity.....It made no sense whatsoever.

Sure it makes sense - evil consequences following on from man's fall into sin. That's the general cause for the suffering and evil in the world. What might be a specific cause for an individual - why he or she endures a particular evil at a particular time - is according to God's plan for that person.

And to get this back towards the topic, and the subject of sexuality...Here you have persons who are "given" a particular inclination, and are supposedly on Gods wrong side should they follow it (something which holds true for heterosexuals too, in certain circumstances). Again, it makes little sense. Is God giving you a tray to carry so he can play "trip up"?

No, where a person is given over to sexual perversion it is never to make an innocent person guilty. It can be as specific punishment for other sins, as in Romans 1, or the choice to engage in the perversion may be just another example of man's fallen nature at work.

wolfsbane

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
As to why God determined to take your hand, we don't know. Maybe to press upon you your mortality.
Why would God do this? Is that not an extremely petty and underhanded way of bringing people to him?

God is free to choose how He brings sinners to repentance. Every action by Him toward that end will be praised by those who are ultimately saved through it.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Maybe to prevent you doing something a fully able person might do and be ruined by. God doesn't do anything for no good reason.
And take away his free will?

Preventing us acting upon our wills is not the same as taking away our free will. You and I do it all the time: we lock our doors to keep out burglars and to keep the toddlers in.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is free to choose how He brings sinners to repentance. Every action by Him toward that end will be praised by those who are ultimately saved through it.

So the end justifies the means? Surely God should't be free to choose if it brings about suffering and pain. What's the point in having free will when God tries to waylay you by destroying what gives your life meaning apart from him? Would it not be much better to convince people through a positive influence instead of striking them down?

wolfsbane wrote:

Preventing us acting upon our wills is not the same as taking away our free will. You and I do it all the time: we lock our doors to keep out burglars and to keep the toddlers in.

Preventing us acting on our wills is pretty much taking away our free will. We lock doors to keep out burglars to protect ourselves. This does not prevent burglars from trying to break the door down or getting in another way. They are still free to exercise their will if they choose. We lock doors to keep toddlers in because they aren't fully mentally developed. Why should God want to prevent a reasonable adult from carrying out wills which do not have a detrimental effect on anyone?

Your concept of God is petty, vindictive and small-minded.

wolfsbane

Mickeroo said:

Care to elaborate? I understand if it's a personal thing and you don't want to.....

A couple of examples, though not in detail:
1. I prayed God to spare the life of someone near to me, and the sorrow of their immediate family. It was most unlikely, humanly speaking, but it came to pass. And before it did so, I received assurance in my heart/mind that it was going to be so. I have no doubt this was from God.
2. I prayed to God to deliver me from an immediate danger. Again, it was most unlikely this would naturally happen. But again I had the assurance and it happened. I have no doubt this also was God intervening on my behalf.

There have been many more incidents which on reflection I can see how God overuled on my behalf, even when I was unaware of the threats/problems.

In answer to prayer I have also had His provision of an ability and wisdom not naturally my own, when I needed it.

I'm not trying to be funny,but have you ever considered a job as a televangelist?

I'm glad to be an evangelist in any medium, but I have not been asked into full-time ministry since I left prison-pastoring in 1998.

As to televangelist, the medium is fine, but many associated with televangelism are frauds and charlatans. If anyone is called to televangelism they would need to mark themselves out from among those gangsters - by having a modest lifestyle, sticking to the Bible doctrines, and living a godly life.

There are some good preachers on TV - Peter Masters, for example. You can see him on UCB.

wolfsbane

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
God is free to choose how He brings sinners to repentance. Every action by Him toward that end will be praised by those who are ultimately saved through it.
So the end justifies the means? Surely God should't be free to choose if it brings about suffering and pain. What's the point in having free will when God tries to waylay you by destroying what gives your life meaning apart from him? Would it not be much better to convince people through a positive influence instead of striking them down?

God is Creator, so is free to use what means He thinks fit. Especially so since we are wicked sinners and deserve nothing but His wrath.

Remember too that suffering and pain are a consequence of man's Fall. And that man's free will now is bound to his sinful nature - he chooses only what his evil heart desires, and that is never to love God and serve Him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Preventing us acting upon our wills is not the same as taking away our free will. You and I do it all the time: we lock our doors to keep out burglars and to keep the toddlers in.
Preventing us acting on our wills is pretty much taking away our free will. We lock doors to keep out burglars to protect ourselves. This does not prevent burglars from trying to break the door down or getting in another way. They are still free to exercise their will if they choose. We lock doors to keep toddlers in because they aren't fully mentally developed. Why should God want to prevent a reasonable adult from carrying out wills which do not have a detrimental effect on anyone?

When we frustrate the burglar getting through the window, that - even in your concept of free will - prevents his will to enter by the window being enacted.

But as to God preventing a reasonable adult from carrying out wills which do not have a detrimental effect on anyone, how can you say any act - however reasonable it may be - will not ultimately have a detrimental effect on others or oneself? God knows how things would develop if left to themselves. We do not. I know I am very thankful that several plans I thought good were cut short, when I later saw where they were leading.

Your concept of God is petty, vindictive and small-minded.

My concept of God is of One who is sovereign in all things, infinitely holy, and intimately concerned with us.

The criminal also says the judge is is petty, vindictive and small-minded when he takes a dim view of the crime and sends him down for a long spell on account of it. You just want a God who will condone your thoughts and actions.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is Creator, so is free to use what means He thinks fit. Especially so since we are wicked sinners and deserve nothing but His wrath.

Remember too that suffering and pain are a consequence of man's Fall. And that man's free will now is bound to his sinful nature - he chooses only what his evil heart desires, and that is never to love God and serve Him.

I don't think God should have a right to treat people in whatever way he wants just because he can. As for the Fall, do you not think it petty to blame all of humanity for the sins of another? What does God gain by having us born in original sin, apart from the freedom to jerk us around in whatever way he wants, apparently without rhyme or reason?

For the record, I am a good person, I am not full of wicked desires and I do not have an evil heart. That a Christian like yourself should assume I am is strange and really sells humanity short.

wolfsbane wrote:

But as to God preventing a reasonable adult from carrying out wills which do not have a detrimental effect on anyone, how can you say any act - however reasonable it may be - will not ultimately have a detrimental effect on others or oneself? God knows how things would develop if left to themselves. We do not. I know I am very thankful that several plans I thought good were cut short, when I later saw where they were leading.

How do you know that those same plans, if enacted, might have led to something positive once you had gone beyond the negatives? All your examples prove is that you have poor insight. Perhaps you should pray to God for better guidance and not have him have to stop you himself in future. Your argument about not knowing the ultimate consequences of things is ultimately pointless

wolfsbane wrote:

The criminal also says the judge is is petty, vindictive and small-minded when he takes a dim view of the crime and sends him down for a long spell on account of it. You just want a God who will condone your thoughts and actions.

The criminal can see how what he has done has damaged another. Even though he may feel no remorse he knows that what he has done is wrong and against the law. Ordinary humans who have done no wrong, hurt no-one and committed no crime to his fellow man will still have his fate jeopardised by a chaotic, seemingly bipolar, and uncompassionate God.

wolfsbane

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
God is Creator, so is free to use what means He thinks fit. Especially so since we are wicked sinners and deserve nothing but His wrath.

Remember too that suffering and pain are a consequence of man's Fall. And that man's free will now is bound to his sinful nature - he chooses only what his evil heart desires, and that is never to love God and serve Him.

I don't think God should have a right to treat people in whatever way he wants just because he can.

He doesn't - He treats them justly.

As for the Fall, do you not think it petty to blame all of humanity for the sins of another? What does God gain by having us born in original sin, apart from the freedom to jerk us around in whatever way he wants, apparently without rhyme or reason?

It seems we are chips of the old block. Our natures are what they are because we come from Adam. Why does God allow this to go on? He doesn't say. What He does say is that He has His purpose, the salvation of His elect. Since He is God and much wiser than I, I'm happy to trust Him on this.

For the record, I am a good person, I am not full of wicked desires and I do not have an evil heart. That a Christian like yourself should assume I am is strange and really sells humanity short.

You have a faulty assessment of your nature. I know you are not as wicked as many, and are not as wicked as you could be, but you are still black as night in God's sight. It is His assessment we have to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
But as to God preventing a reasonable adult from carrying out wills which do not have a detrimental effect on anyone, how can you say any act - however reasonable it may be - will not ultimately have a detrimental effect on others or oneself? God knows how things would develop if left to themselves. We do not. I know I am very thankful that several plans I thought good were cut short, when I later saw where they were leading.
How do you know that those same plans, if enacted, might have led to something positive once you had gone beyond the negatives? All your examples prove is that you have poor insight. Perhaps you should pray to God for better guidance and not have him have to stop you himself in future. Your argument about not knowing the ultimate consequences of things is ultimately pointless

Yes, I am responsible for many bad choices. But as I'm not God, who can forsee all, I have to use reason to make my choices. My reason is only as good as the input data. Since I don't have all that, I sometimes choose bad courses even at my best and most reasonable efforts.

I am therefore glad of God's interventions. But you suggest what I saw as being likely disaster might have been good instead - true. Falling off a cliff might have initiated me as an Olympic diver - but I doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The criminal also says the judge is is petty, vindictive and small-minded when he takes a dim view of the crime and sends him down for a long spell on account of it. You just want a God who will condone your thoughts and actions.
The criminal can see how what he has done has damaged another. Even though he may feel no remorse he knows that what he has done is wrong and against the law. Ordinary humans who have done no wrong, hurt no-one and committed no crime to his fellow man will still have his fate jeopardised by a chaotic, seemingly bipolar, and uncompassionate God.

They know enough to be guilty of not worshipping Him. They are naturally antagonistic toward God. As evidenced on these threads.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

He doesn't - He treats them justly.

You only believe this because you already accept his existence and accept that he can only act in someone's best interests. To an objective observer, God's judgement is completely random.

wolfsbane wrote:

It seems we are chips of the old block. Our natures are what they are because we come from Adam. Why does God allow this to go on? He doesn't say. What He does say is that He has His purpose, the salvation of His elect. Since He is God and much wiser than I, I'm happy to trust Him on this.

And you don't think it cruel that he forces us to carry a burden that is not ours? I'm sure children born into slavery are not quite as happy to accept their masters as wise and always acting in their best interests.

wolfsbane wrote:

You have a faulty assessment of your nature. I know you are not as wicked as many, and are not as wicked as you could be, but you are still black as night in God's sight. It is His assessment we have to worry about.

Then God is fundamentally wrong, and if he judges people just on whether or not they accept him then he isn't a very good, objective or discerning one, rather a petty, shallow and somewhat egotistical one.

wolfsbane wrote:

I am therefore glad of God's interventions. But you suggest what I saw as being likely disaster might have been good instead - true. Falling off a cliff might have initiated me as an Olympic diver - but I doubt it.

Right. The point is you can never know. So the idea that God is preventing bad intermediate term consequences is flawed, as he is probably preventing good long term consequences in the same go.

wolfsbane wrote:

They know enough to be guilty of not worshipping Him. They are naturally antagonistic toward God. As evidenced on these threads.

I'm not antagonistic towards him, I know he doesn't exist. It's hard to hate something that isn't real. However, from a Christian perspective, it's hard to worship something who's rules seem so arbitrary.

MrPudding

wolfsbane wrote: »

There have been many more incidents which on reflection I can see how God overuled on my behalf, even when I was unaware of the threats/problems.

I find the prayer thing quite interesting. How many things do you think you pray for each day? And how many of them come to pass?

MrP

wolfsbane

MrPudding wrote: »

I find the prayer thing quite interesting. How many things do you think you pray for each day? And how many of them come to pass?

MrP

I pray for perhaps dozens of things daily.

Some it is hard to determine if they are answered that day or not - 'Strenghten Mrs. X in her struggle with bodily pain and with her troubled teenager.' Only an indepth interview with Mrs. X could confirm it - even then, it may be very subjective. Usually one sees results after a longer period, when the person exhibits evidence and testifies to the grace they received in their struggle.

Others are very time-constrained - wisdom to find a solution to a pressing problem that one cannot see a solution to. When action is needed, one knows where the successful insight came from.

Some are of indeterminate time - prayer for the salvation of an individual, for example. I prayed for my Dad for some 30yrs before he repented and trusted in God.

Others it is immediately evident the answer is "No". Avoidance of some unpleasant circumstance - when God wishes me to go through that rather than around it. Or the answer may immediately evidently be "Yes". The seemingly certain disaster is amazingly averted.

I have experienced all of these.

So if you are asking how many are answered each day: some are that cannot be detected that day, but will be longer term; others are only answered in the long term; some the answer is an immediate and evident "No" and the undesired event happens; others the answer is an immediate and evident "Yes" and the desired result is achieved that day.

wolfsbane

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
He doesn't - He treats them justly.
You only believe this because you already accept his existence and accept that he can only act in someone's best interests. To an objective observer, God's judgement is completely random.

The objective observer is not so objective - he is prejudiced against God and for his own sinful ways. He will always justify himself against God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
It seems we are chips of the old block. Our natures are what they are because we come from Adam. Why does God allow this to go on? He doesn't say. What He does say is that He has His purpose, the salvation of His elect. Since He is God and much wiser than I, I'm happy to trust Him on this.
And you don't think it cruel that he forces us to carry a burden that is not ours? I'm sure children born into slavery are not quite as happy to accept their masters as wise and always acting in their best interests.

I recognise my sinful nature. If I had a sinless nature but was being blamed for Adam's sin, I would agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You have a faulty assessment of your nature. I know you are not as wicked as many, and are not as wicked as you could be, but you are still black as night in God's sight. It is His assessment we have to worry about. Then God is fundamentally wrong, and if he judges people just on whether or not they accept him then he isn't a very good, objective or discerning one, rather a petty, shallow and somewhat egotistical one.

OR it is your judgment that is the petty, shallow and somewhat egotistical one. I see myself and my fellowman, and I recognise the intrinsic wickedness that lies in our hearts. We may tidy bits and pieces up from time to time but the house is still a sty until God cleans it out.

Some of us know we are morally filthy - we either wallow in it or call on God to wash us from it.

Others think themselves morally clean and in no need of repentance.
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I am therefore glad of God's interventions. But you suggest what I saw as being likely disaster might have been good instead - true. Falling off a cliff might have initiated me as an Olympic diver - but I doubt it.
Right. The point is you can never know. So the idea that God is preventing bad intermediate term consequences is flawed, as he is probably preventing good long term consequences in the same go.

If probabilities were the only factor, you might be right, however remote the chance.

But God is not concerned with probabilities: He is sovereign. He causes to come to pass everything that does, whether by making good happen or permitting evil to happen. Even the worst of man's or demon's efforts are turned by God to accomplish His good purpose.

Therefore His providence to me is always for the best. He doesn't make mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
They know enough to be guilty of not worshipping Him. They are naturally antagonistic toward God. As evidenced on these threads.
I'm not antagonistic towards him, I know he doesn't exist.

No, you hope He doesn't exist. You cannot know that, since you know so little of what is in the material universe, let alone a spiritual dimension.

In fact, you know He does - down in your deeper heart/mind. You have suppressed that fact, but it is evident when you get worked up about His existence.

It's hard to hate something that isn't real.

That we agree on. Which sort of confirms that Dawkins & Co. are 'kicking against the goads'.

However, from a Christian perspective, it's hard to worship something who's rules seem so arbitrary.

I never confuse arbitary with infinitely holy, wise and good. Just because I cannot fully understand all the Master does, is no reason to question Him. I assume you let the pilot get on with flying the plane even if you know little about how to fly it yourself.

MrPudding

wolfsbane wrote: »

I pray for perhaps dozens of things daily.

Some it is hard to determine if they are answered that day or not - 'Strenghten Mrs. X in her struggle with bodily pain and with her troubled teenager.' Only an indepth interview with Mrs. X could confirm it - even then, it may be very subjective. Usually one sees results after a longer period, when the person exhibits evidence and testifies to the grace they received in their struggle.

Others are very time-constrained - wisdom to find a solution to a pressing problem that one cannot see a solution to. When action is needed, one knows where the successful insight came from.

Some are of indeterminate time - prayer for the salvation of an individual, for example. I prayed for my Dad for some 30yrs before he repented and trusted in God.

Others it is immediately evident the answer is "No". Avoidance of some unpleasant circumstance - when God wishes me to go through that rather than around it. Or the answer may immediately evidently be "Yes". The seemingly certain disaster is amazingly averted.

I have experienced all of these.

So if you are asking how many are answered each day: some are that cannot be detected that day, but will be longer term; others are only answered in the long term; some the answer is an immediate and evident "No" and the undesired event happens; others the answer is an immediate and evident "Yes" and the desired result is achieved that day.

I actually did some testing last night, and I think there actually might be something in it. I prayed for the sun to rise and for me and my family to wake up. All of these things came to pass, so result. I also prayed for a safe journey to work and that work would be OK. Again these things came to pass. I prayed for a couple of other things, like roast ham in the canteen. They did not happen, but I will continue to pray for the ham and hopefully my prayer will be answered some time in the future. As you say yourself, some things take a bit longer.

MrP