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Warrior tanking, changes and builds in Wrath of the Lich King.
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09-12-2008 11:40am#1(Or: hey, why is the tank topping the DPS?)
Second thread I've decided to start here, a few of you might remember my PVP'ing as a protection spec warrior thread, so I guess this is the natural follow up now that I've hit 80 and I've been running a few heroics. Things have really changed for the protection specced warrior, and I'm still more than a little in awe of just how well I'm doing in battlegrounds, but I'm a tank and in dungeons is where the real win happens, so I thought I'd talk less about PVP and more about PVE and what's changed there. I've had a respec since just before I hit 80, and it's an absolute joy to play with.
So first of all, let me talk to you about the build I'm using.
It's this 12/8/51 build that's all about getting the most damage and threat from shield slam.
Probably the first thing you'll notice is that I've some points into talents that would previously be the signs of an extremely bad tanking build. Not so any more, and while it's strange to say "most damage" and "tanking" in the same sentance, you have to keep in mind that Blizzard have really shaken things up with this expansion. As chronicled in my last thread, the tanking warrior has so much more power in the battleground, and that's because this time around, we're geared a lot more towards doind damage. If you don't believe me, then think about the change that was made to concussion blow, going from a very simple stun initially, that now does a gobsmacking amount of damage. Tanks can now compare with just about any other spec for inflicting pain.
I've read that Blizzard have changed things so that it isn't so much an inherent threat built into abilities, but rather that threat is generated by the damage you do, so by maximizing damage you're actually doing your job as a tank and holding the enemy's attention. Since I specced to the above build, I've found out that this is very true, I've abandoned vigilance and I certainly seem to be holding threat even better than I was. I've played a couple of heroics now with a few retribution Paladins, one who was certainly better geared than I am, and I had absolutely no problems keeping aggro. Even in the case of a bad pull, I've been pulling mobs off the naughty pala with a single hit from shield slam. More damage is certainly more threat, so if you're a tank, more pain = more gain.
It is odd, especially since pre-WotLK, a tank who was trying to pull a mob off a team member using DPS was a very bad tank, suddenly the opposite is true. I still feel like I'm doing something wrong, something naughty that a tank shouldn't be doing, but it's got results!
With this build, your shield block value is king. The more block value you have, the more damage your shield slam does, and the more damage your block stops. Shield Block is just about one of the best abilities you have. For a full ten seconds, you'll block everything, and your block value goes up by 100% so you'll take even less damage from hits, but it also means that for those 10 seconds, your shield slam does even more damage. Lets say for 1 minute of combat, you use a rotation of shield block, shield wall shield block. That's over 30 seconds of greatly significant damage reduction.
Now, lets talk about the glyphs I'm using, here are the majors:
Glyph of Blocking
Glyph of Revenge
Glyph of Heroic Strike
Blocking needs no explanation, an extra 10% block value for 10 secs every time shield slam is used, and given that shield slam can be hit every 6 seconds (or less with Sword and Board), that's a constant buff in a fight. The glyphs of Revenge and Heroic Strike are for getting the highest possible spam rate for Heroic Strike.
And the minors:
Glyph of Thunder Clap
Glyph of Charge
Glyph of Battle
There's less to choose from in the minors, but for a tank, the extra range on Thunder Clap is an obvious one. Charge is a good one too, the little extra range here is good for hitting bosses who knock you back and re-establishing aggro fast. Battle, well, that's really just for convenience sake, I'll use that soloing more than anything, as commanding shout will get used in a group.
On to gear.
I'm using The Red Sword of Courage, and I plan to get this enchanted with accuracy once I find someone who can do it. As I've said, block value is king for my build, so I'll be looking to stack as much of it as possible. I've got the Burning Skull Pendant and Tattered Castle Drape at the moment, and my shield is enchanted with Tough Shield.
My aims are first of all, get a helm with a meta socket, such as Arcane Shielded Helm from The Nexus heroic, and eventually, Heroes' Dreadnaught Greathelm. I'll be putting an Eternal Earthsiege Diamond in there for obvious reasons. Skadi's Iron Belt I'll be farming for, even the socket bonus gives block value, and I'll be keeping an eye on the auction house for Inexorable Sabatons. Hopefully I'll be able to get the Legplates of Inescapable Death from the 10-man Naxx. For trinkings, my aim is Lavanthor's Talisman which gives you +440 block value on use for 20 seconds, which will come in hugely handy on boss fights, and Essense of Gossamer for the stamina.
I'll be looking to buy Heroes' Dreadnaught Battleplate and Gauntlets with the Emblems of Heroism. The set bonus for having 2 of these items is fantastic, +10% shield slam damage. Overall, I'll just be stacking as much block value as I can. I'm already way past the defense cap at 560, some rings, gems and such will fill out the hit rating cap nicely, especially as I've got the bonus sockets from blacksmithing. The idea of this is, get as much damage reduction as possible with shield block, and the highest threat and damage I can with shield slam.
Couple of things I've found out that people might find interesting. Berserker Rage is now usable in defensive stance, and it breaks fear! You can dismarm King Ymiron in both normal and heroic difficulty.
Anyway, thoughts? What builds are you using? How do you find a warrior tank after WotLK?0
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First off i think you are absoluteley mad having 2 points in improved charge and then not having any in improved disciplins ! Oh wait just looking again i think you migh have linked to the wrong build as i see 7/8/56.
This is what im using:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrg0didIzsGo (5/8/58)
Atm ive 2 sets of gear, one for high threat (higher damage) and one for the rest (high dodge/parry/block)
Ive never actually used concussive blow in my regular rotation but i might setup a macro for it to hit a second mob. I did know about beserker rage, but being a human warrior ive already got 2 other abilities to break and fear/charm/cc so never used it. But i have to agree warriors tanks are now putting out stupid damage easilly making a show of rogues, fury/arms warriors and some others. But i think yoru right more damage = more threat. Ive practicially dropped sunder/devistate(apart from boss fights) now as shield slam, heroic strike, revenge, thunderclap seem to hold pretty much anything. I do however keep vigiliance on someone, just incase i lag for a few seconds and am left standing there takign damage. Now all we have to do is wait for some actual hard instances.
Right, improved charge and the lack of improved disciplines... I'll engage generally engage by using charge, get shield block up for the slam buff, and have enough rage to slap them straight away with shield slam and thunderclap. I also need points in there for Impale. Disciplines, well, even with the minute shaved off the cooldown, it's still 4 minutes before you can use shield wall again, and I found that was something I'd only use once a boss fight anyway, so I didn't mind dropping it. Haven't missed it so far.
I definitely think that damage is threat, there's a lot more talents in the protection tree that modify damage than before. Incite, warbringer, even gag order gives you 10% shield slam damage, and improved defensive stance gives enrage which ups your damage there again. Damage.
Though your build certainly does look like a good one, no denying it. As for harder instances, I've read that Blizzard regretted adding Black Temple in BC from the get go, and the plan with Wrath was to have a lot of content held back, so I'm sure there's going to be much bigger tests of my tanking to come.0 -
Quoted for posterityKarl Hungus wrote: »Or is there some reason a tank would be in berserker stance in an instance?
Argh, i always end up sounding massively condescending here so ill let someone else field it!0 -
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Aye, we horde had it harder when tanking a few years back
My main used to be a warrior (MT) so I enjoyed reading the posts here on this.
Thanks Nehaxak, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I've only been playing the game less than a year, and been tanking even less than that, so throw us a fricken bone here guys... Before Wrath, it was mainly BC instances I had the most experience with, Magister's Terrace being probably the most difficult I had tanked. But I do think I've something to add none the less. The mechanics have changed quite a bit between BC and Wrath, and come on, it's got to beat yet another Death Knight thread, doesn't it? 0 -
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ok, well if im going to read a wall of text, Id like to read a wall of text thats at least informed. Some experience of pvp and raids would be nice and I cant imagine Magisters Terrace was the hardest heroic to tank for a warrior in wotlk? (i guess i could stand corrected here). Anyway, something as fundamental as being unaware of zerk rage kinda negates the rest for me:P
As far as i can tell (bearing in mind i play a high-threat dps class) this is all that needs to be said about any tanking class:
1. Press some buttons and never lose aggro.
and thats it.
Threat mechanics underwent SUCH a fundamental change with this expansion that it just doesn really bear talking about anymore. (As an example, We were doing sartharion the other day and all of a sudden i heard the Omen noise from out of nowhere. It had been such a long time since id been anywhere near pulling aggro that id forgotten all about it. Turns out our tanks mouse broke. He still didnt lose aggro by the way - gg threat)
As for damage, whatever. As gear scales the faceroll elements of base skill damage gets minimised more and more and with that youll see tank damage drop and drop compared to dps classes (except Death Knights of course, but that will drop the second S5 starts.)
edit: What is good about the increased damage from Def stance abilities is that tanks can now farm quite effectively and even pvp. Thats a Very Good Thing in terms of keeping guilds tanks happy 0 -
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CuLT wrote:Ivan wrote:getting this installed
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=183035
We were just talking about it here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58203397&postcount=16
Seems like it'd be really useful, if it's not too much trouble
Regards,
Ivan
Hi Ivan,
Not on the cards right now, too many DB modifications from an alpha/dev mod ( one of whose primary features appears to be "debug" ) with zero application outside the WoW forum.
Thanks,
CuLT.
Oh well, maybe in a few months
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Nice one LordChessington, glad you're enjoying it.
One thing I've found recently is, just how fantastic Damage Shield is. In my previous thread I said it was worthless after putting 1 point in there. I discovered it was bugged though, so you need 2 points to make it work at all, but it is a pretty terrific talent altogether now that I'm getting the benifit of it. Going through combat logs, I realised just how powerful it was and it seems to really hold threat well. This adds another reason to why I'll be stacking block value, and it scales with shield block too. I dueled a lower level hunter yesterday, and his pet actually suicided on me. Rogues aren't going to like this talent either.0 -
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Karl have you noticed that in wotlk you only need 1 tanking set? I only really started tanking a few weeks before wotlk but i had high def armor set, a dodge/parry set. But now i dont seem to need any of it at all. Ive seen some warriors running around in the full tempered saronite set for heroics and getting away with it
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I'm sorry, no.
I agree with the majority of your post, but you will not be ready for heroics with entry level <80 gear.
You need 535 defense to be crit immune for heroics. With exponential scaling of defense and diminishing returns on dodge and parry, you just wont have the avoidance for tanking heroics at 80 without at least some work, at 80.
Grab yourself some tabards and do HoL/Stratholme from 78 or so on. Try to build up to honored, if you arent already from quests, with all the reputations as it'll let you buy some decent tank gear once you hit 80 (in some cases 78).
Revered is ideal and some factions are better than others in terms of tank gear. Most notably Argent Crusade since you can grab the head enchant which helps.
Also, start on the Sons of Hodir quest chains in Storm Peaks while you can. You want to be exalted with them eventually for the great shoulder enchants and at the moment at least, you can only put out about 1k rep per day from the dailies.
The http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55301 and http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55303 daunting gear is great for building up defense initially. But you'll most likely need to gem and enchant for defense just to be ready for entry level heroics. Otherwise your healers will hate you, you will wipe and most likely your groups will fail to kill most bosses. This is the biggest issue most freshly 80 tanks face and it is just tragic.
The cost of titansteel has dropped significantly in the last few weeks but is likely to drop even more in the next few weeks. Grab the tempered titansteel helm first, it's one of the cheapest titansteel items you can make/get made and it is currently pretty damn nice. And it is getting a blue and meta socket added in the next patch so will be even better.
If you arent JC/Alchemy or Engineering at the moment, I would highly recommend one of them. There are only 3 crafted trinkets with stamina on them and I believe 2 stamina trinkets from drops. The JC trinket is simply the best stamina trinket in the current content and has a damn nice use effect too. Plus there is rather nice money in the profession
Other than that, dont be afraid to gather dps gear where possible as you'll most likely need it at some point. Especially with the dual spec system coming soon. Your best bet is to spec fury/arms for a short while once you hit 80 to farm some gear and reptuation and then go from there.
Finally, http://wow-loot.com/ is your friend. Use it to find the gear you need
Good luck and good tanking!
P.s. If you are like me, you'll be looking at the epic tank gloves from Kirin Tor with greedy eyes. I wouldnt bother, by the time you'll be in a position to buy it, you'll have better or you'll be relying on the daunting gloves to stay crit immune.0 -
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With Prot paladin buffs and Titans grip buffs in next patch, I think the time of the Prot warrior is finally coming to a close
Fury warriors are already insane but now they are actually practical for leveling too!
Damn you Ivan.... Damn you.....
I don't want to take the bait but I have to!!!!
Even though I don't play my warrior tank much atm, I have to stick up for them. Our guild doesn't even have a pally tank, or a druid tank. We have active and nicely geared Prot Warriors and we have cleared all 10 man content and 25 man naxx.
Grrrrr....
Prot Warriors will always be what the majority of players think of when they hear "Tank" and still usually what people want when they are LF TANK LAST SPOT OMG GO GO0 -
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Karl Hungus wrote: »Why would it require stance dancing? I'm not focusing on any talents that are used outside of defensive stance.
Yeah, vigilance seems like a good idea on paper, but I dropped it when I first took my 12/8/51 build and kept aggro even better, so a wasted point really. The only time I can see it being potentially useful is for raid bosses, where a tank and offtank would buff each other (:D) with it for the 3% reduced damage.
You guys are grouping with the wrong dps if you think vigilance is totally useless
Some tanks i have ran HCs with would not have been able to come close to keeping up with my damage if it werent for Vigilance.0 -
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Regarding crit immune you dont need to be 535 to run heroics, i think i only reached that def quota recentley on my DK and i only hit it by getting heroic blues/epics, and i was never one shotted.
And i had tanked heroics such as:
UK, UP, Zul, VH, Old kingdom, nex and HoS with no probs
So your grand for heroics once your def rating is over 500 IME 0 -
Regarding crit immune you dont need to be 535 to run heroics, i think i only reached that def quota recentley on my DK and i only hit it by getting heroic blues/epics, and i was never one shotted.
And i had tanked heroics such as:
UK, UP, Zul, VH, Old kingdom, nex and HoS with no probs
So your grand for heroics once your def rating is over 500 IME
I'd be wary of lowballing the defense rating, it still effects your dodge/block/parry so you're gonne lose a little avoidance and be that bit less hardy. That rare chance of crit mightn't happen if you're lacking a couple of points, but it's there, always looming. Not to mention if your party ever found out that you've been critically hit, they'd probably get another tank fast.0 -
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Nice going! I've now decided to stop messin about and head straight for level 80!
Altho... failed at violet hold last night again - tried it with 3 frost specced mages, a druid healer and myself. Found out that all bosses in there are frost and beer immune.
So we did The Dalaran Run! - switch your pvp on and run through the Dalaran slapping the alliance scumbags and generally being a nuisance. Whoever lives longest is the winner! Strangely enough, the mages were dead within minutes. No-one, not one scumbag tried to hit me ! I think it's the tank gear that scares them :P0 -
Violet hold can be hard if yoru healer is crap/drunk, ive practicially stopped grouping with mages as they just dont have the raw dps of a nice feral druid or ele shammy. Granted not all mages are the same but alot i know do the same dps as when they were lvl 70. 0
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ive practicially stopped grouping with mages as they just dont have the raw dps of a nice feral druid or ele shammy.
0o
man seriously, what bizzarro server do you play on? As a mage i know that the best spec for raids means your a little gimped in 5 mans and i get outdpsed a fair bit (rets, dks and enh shamans mostly) but never by those 2 classes. How did you manage to settle on the 2 worst dpsing specs there is ?
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Well, feral druids scale rather nicely. Once you get some decent gear on them, they can get very scary. A dps druid in our guild has 14k AP raid buffed in cat form.
I second ele shamans though.
And raiding mages have some insane dps with the right spec (i.e. frostfire).
Requires a decent bit of gear and the know-how to use one of the simplest rotations this side of mangle, shred, shred, mangle; but they are insanely competitive in their dps.
Also, VH is one of the easiest instances, heroic or otherwise. Crit immune tanks are vital, also the knowledge of how to fight the random bosses. Also, if you have difficulty, use the gems scattered around the place for some big AoE damage. Makes several boss encounters trivial but you dont get your achievement 0 -
Also, VH is one of the easiest instances, heroic or otherwise. Crit immune tanks are vital, also the knowledge of how to fight the random bosses. Also, if you have difficulty, use the gems scattered around the place for some big AoE damage. Makes several boss encounters trivial but you dont get your achievement
Ah, VH can be hard enough on heroic depending on the boss. That damned Ethereal lad is a pain.0 -
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