Refused premission for a Moderator today.

clivej

I have just opened a letter from my Super in which he has refused me permission for moderators for my guns on the grounds of "Public Safety".

But he has invited me to decuss this mater with him if I wish too, I must make an appointment to see him during the next 10 days.

So here I go on the long path to nowhere.

Jonty

Sorry to hear that clive. Are you going to go and see him?

Rew

What caliber is your rifle?

Jonty

Just going from your previous posts, you basically applied for permission on the moderator on the grounds of public safety! Its a bit of a paradox really!!!

Vegeta

clivej wrote: »

I have just opened a letter from my Super in which he has refused me permission for moderators for my guns on the grounds of "Public Safety".

But he has invited me to decuss this mater with him if I wish too, I must make an appointment to see him during the next 10 days.

So here I go on the long path to nowhere.

Definitely go and meet him Clive. He is obviously an approachable guy if he is offering you the chance to meet.

Be courteous, well dressed and be prepared.

Very civilly ask him to express his concerns

Funny how he'll grant you a license for a .223 but a tube of metal with some baffles is some form of threat to public safety. That baffles me :P

So by means of this post we could come up with sound reasons for you to put forth. He already said H&S is out so we will mention it at the end briefly

1. You lamp at night, late in the night. A moderator will prevent you from unduly causing trouble in the countryside. A gunshot can be approx 140dB which is louder than a concert or a jet engine.

2. Spooking livestock. Using a moderator reduces the risk of scaring livestock. (as I have said previously one sheep farmer I shoot for also has horses and they are easily spooked, unfortunately they are kept 2 fields over from the home of quite a number of foxes)

That's 2 off the top of my head, I will be back with more but got to do some work now

Veg

bunny shooter

Sorry to hear that Clive

"Public Safety" lovely term that.

Same reason they are proposing to ban, sorry we were told they were not going to ban anything, only restrict :rolleyes:, handguns, except for "Olympic" ones as they obviously pose no threat to "public safety"

If we get the "Olympic" shooters to use moderators and they submit a list of pictures of them then the rest of us mere mortals, who it appears are a danger to public safety, would be sorted.

Try Des Crofton if your a member of NARGC. He got something sorted for me recently with my Super

Lads, if I'm not posting for a week or so you'll know I've been banned again for "abusing the Olympic shooters"

sfakiaman

Maybe an obvious point to us, but make sure the super knows that a moderator is not a silencer in the Hollywood sense. Could you quote him the decibels of a moderated rifle and an unmoderated one with a point of comparison for each.

Jonty

Has he refused you on both the .22lr and the .223??

Grizzly 45

Isnt it a great paradox in Ireland.It is illegal not to have a silencer on your car,and you can modify the silencer without "good reason" to make it nosier.Yet to make your gun quiter as not to bother people and reduce noise pollution you need very good reason and it is illegal to posses with authorisation.Go Figure.:rolleyes:

clivej

Rew wrote: »

What caliber is your rifle?

Put in 22lr and 223

Jonty wrote: »

Has he refused you on both the .22lr and the .223??

Just refers to the 22lr.

sfakiaman wrote: »

Maybe an obvious point to us, but make sure the super knows that a moderator is not a silencer in the Hollywood sense. Could you quote him the decibels of a moderated rifle and an unmoderated one with a point of comparison for each.

This was the letter I applied with ---- change 223 for 22lr as I put in 2 letters.

Dear Superintendent Xxxxxxxx,
I am asking for your permission to fit and use a Reflex T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor to my .223 rifle. The Reflex T8 does not come with any serial number on it. This Reflex T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor will reduce the noise pollution of the report from the gun but will not completely silence the report.

The reasons for asking you to allow this request are:

1. On the grounds of Health and Safety.
Having worked in a noisy environment for many years my hearing is now not the best nor what it used to be and I do not want or need it to become any worse.

2. Night shooting of vermin.
To reduce the noise pollution/report from the gun during the night time hours

3. I have permission to hunt on farms where I shoot vermin.
With a moderator/sound suppressor fitted to my rifle the report is reduced and as such it will not scare these vermin off after a shot is taken. It should be noted that these vermin are destroying livestock and crops on the farms that I hunt on and as such this T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor will be used in the effective control of vermin.

Yours truly,
___________________________________________________
Mr. Clive Jxxxxxxxxxx

clivej

Also refusal was given as "in the interest of Public Safety and the Peace"

rrpc

clivej wrote: »

Also refusal was given as "in the interest of Public Safety and the Peace"

There are only three reasons in the acts for a refusal: insufficient good reason, danger to the public safety or security or peace, or that they are desentitled under the act.

The second one is the hardest to argue against because it's so vague.

Jonty

You'd imagine that by giving you a license for the .223 a permit for a mod would be a step down in the scale of things.


Regards


Jonty

endasmail

sorry to hear that clive ,but as was said at least he giving you the option of a meeting face to face ,so can explain just what it is exactly you want the moderator for .im going to do the same myself tomorrow, as in go in and apply for permission for a mod myself ,not looking good

bunny shooter

Well they are at worst gonna be "restricted" :rolleyes: looks more like banned to me :eek:

FCP had this sorted ?

Jonty

bunny shooter wrote: »

Well they are at worst gonna be "restricted" :rolleyes: looks more like banned to me :eek:

FCP had this sorted ?

its only centrefire mods to be restricted though??

bunny shooter

Jonty wrote: »

its only centrefire mods to be restricted though??

So are we allowed .22lr mods without an "authorisation" ?

Vegeta

clivej wrote: »

Also refusal was given as "in the interest of Public Safety and the Peace"

Well then Clive it is clear the guy is interested in the public safety and peace only (nothing wrong with that, it is his job after all)

Therefore you have to show him that moderators ARE in the interest of Public Safety and Peace. (I personally think they should be mandatory)

How to do this? Facts figures, a friendly conversation and perhaps a demonstration.

• Gun shots are loud and can give both animals and people a fright/start. As stated earlier they can be up to 140-150dB which is extremely loud. Louder than a jet engine, rock concert, car horn etc
• Fitting one greatly reduces the chance of scaring a member of the public, especially at night. Someone living near by, someone walking the roads etc. Rifle reports carry a long way.
• Livestock/domestic animals get frightened by the noise, even a fair distance away on a still night horses can get spooked and domestic dogs bark and howl after a shot.
• Fitting a mod instead of wearing hearing protection (passive protection that is) gives greater situational awareness. Put bluntly, you need to hear when hunting for both safety reasons (instructions from shooting partners etc) and for the hunting itself.

Now I know H&S doesn't fly with this fella Clive, but if the opportunity arose you could point out the information Traumadoc provided in your other thread. Specifically about hearing protection not being very good and often inadequate http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2004/hsl04-01.pdf

You could print that.

Basically you have to sell it to him.

You could offer a demonstration by asking someone you know with a mod to fire a few rounds unmoderated and then moderated. (This implies that he has never heard a moderated rifle before though so be careful he may get offended at the offer, you know how some folk are )

It wasn't me!

bunny shooter wrote: »

So are we allowed .22lr mods without an "authorisation" ?

nope.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

So are we allowed .22lr mods without an "authorisation" ?

No, all mods require an authorisation. Considered to be a 'firearm' in their own right.

This is I think since 1990, but I'm not sure.

rrpc

Just checked and it was indeed the 1990 act that introduced it. There were two conditions, plublic safety etc. and good reason.

The disentitled one wasn't included, presumably that if you were disentitled to a firearms cert, you'd have no reason for a silencer* :rolleyes:




*they're referred to as silencers in the act.

Jonty

Vegeta wrote: »

You could offer a demonstration by asking someone you know with a mod to fire a few rounds unmoderated and then moderated. (This implies that he has never heard a moderated rifle before though so be careful he may get offended at the offer, you know how some folk are )

If you do this, MAKE SURE the person with the mod on the rifle has a permit for it:D

Jonty

rrpc wrote: »

No, all mods require an authorisation. Considered to be a 'firearm' in their own right.

This is I think since 1990, but I'm not sure.

up to .22 rimfire its unrestricted, ie up to the superintendent. All centrefire mods are to be restricted, and must be applied for through the Commisioner.

Its not in force yet though. Some of the legal eagles here can point it out better for you Bunny Shooter

Vegeta

Jonty wrote: »

If you do this, MAKE SURE the person with the mod on the rifle has a permit for it:D

I should have specifically stated that actually, good catch

G17

Heads up?

I got a call from my local FO last evening asking if I still wanted my moderator permit. I thought nothing of it until I read this post. I've had a permit for several years no problem, I have good reason for it (shooting rabbits near VERY expensive horses).

The issue of the permit was always way after July 31st and I'm sure I have that permit for this year already, but I wonder if local Supers have a fresh batch of 'guidelines' over the last few days?

clivej

bunny shooter wrote: »

So are we allowed .22lr mods without an "authorisation" ?

Sorry I should have stated that this letter refers to the 22lr, I expect the refusal for the 223 is in the post as well.

I have made an appointment for the 16th to talk with the Super.
Look I think he's sound out, after all I did get the 223 license. I hope he only needs some assurance that I'm OK.
And if I'm still refused then I'll only be waking up the neighbourhood after all.

Jonty

clivej wrote: »

And if I'm still refused then I'll only be waking up the neighbourhood after all.

Then the boys in blue can have you for noise pollution, and if they are really bad, reckless disharge of a firearm.

This is a great country.

(Woohoo, broke 500 posts!!)

clivej

Jonty wrote: »

Then the boys in blue can have you for noise pollution, and if they are really bad, reckless disharge of a firearm.

This is a great country.[/quote]

And so it is
I just love it here.

Hey Jonty do you get that extra star for the 500??????
I'm not far behind you..........

jwshooter

clive ,you should not have mentioned nite shooting its a no no ,i bet if you did not mention it you would have been granted the note ,and its only a note not a licence of any sort .so no one in kilkenny has a mod from this super ,find this out .i was the first one in enniscorthy to get a note from the super for a mod ,i went in and sat down with him for a half hour . the man was totally ignorant of what it was and did .down load peter jacksons spoof sheet on the mod . i was honest with him and told him i had it at home and used in on one of my rifles .

medicman

clivej wrote: »

Put in 22lr and 223





Just refers to the 22lr.



This was the letter I applied with ---- change 223 for 22lr as I put in 2 letters.

Dear Superintendent Xxxxxxxx,
I am asking for your permission to fit and use a Reflex T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor to my .223 rifle. The Reflex T8 does not come with any serial number on it. This Reflex T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor will reduce the noise pollution of the report from the gun but will not completely silence the report.

The reasons for asking you to allow this request are:

1. On the grounds of Health and Safety.
Having worked in a noisy environment for many years my hearing is now not the best nor what it used to be and I do not want or need it to become any worse.

2. Night shooting of vermin.
To reduce the noise pollution/report from the gun during the night time hours

3. I have permission to hunt on farms where I shoot vermin.
With a moderator/sound suppressor fitted to my rifle the report is reduced and as such it will not scare these vermin off after a shot is taken. It should be noted that these vermin are destroying livestock and crops on the farms that I hunt on and as such this T8 Moderator/Sound Suppressor will be used in the effective control of vermin.

Yours truly,
___________________________________________________
Mr. Clive Jxxxxxxxxxx

oh oh, thats what i put in my application, plus i need my hearing for my job, i hope the supers dont talk much around the country, i'll let you know how my application go's.


medicman.

hazza

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2004/hsl04-01.pdf

Jonty

Useful too.


Check out points 1, 3 and 9....


http://guns.connect.fi/rs/summary.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sound_moderators.htm

http://www.basc.org.uk/media/rmcs_sound_moderator_assessment_2.pdf

clivej

hazza wrote: »

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2004/hsl04-01.pdf

Thanks for that reference hazza I'll print off a copy.
My main problem is what to say to the Super now that was not included in the letter - to try and convince him to change his mind and permit me the use of the mod?

Grizzly 45

Another take on this.He is concerned with from what I can see is public saftey and the peace.Ask HIM what exactly are his concerns in relation to this that applies to you personally as the above reasons are very broad and sweeping.So if he can specify what exactly he precives as a danger that you possesing this might cause,you at least have a point that you can work from to discuss and come to some arrangement to deal with the specified problem?

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another take on this.He is concerned with from what I can see is public saftey and the peace.Ask HIM what exactly are his concerns in relation to this that applies to you personally as the above reasons are very broad and sweeping.So if he can specify what exactly he precives as a danger that you possesing this might cause,you at least have a point that you can work from to discuss and come to some arrangement to deal with the specified problem?

Very sensible approach Grizzly. He may of course not want to issue full stop, in which case he may not elaborate.

Cue long silence as Clivej and Super eyeball each other

Grizzly 45

Dont be the first to blink then!:):D

hazza

clivej wrote: »

Thanks for that reference hazza I'll print off a copy.
My main problem is what to say to the Super now that was not included in the letter - to try and convince him to change his mind and permit me the use of the mod?

Good luck with that clivej. I've just recently set the ball rolling in applying for a .22 CZ silhouette (the one with the 16" barrel and screwcut for a mod). I had a previous application in for a .22 air rifle but after 6 weeks of enquiring about its status was told the FO is on holiday (be back next week), oh he's now out on sick leave. And eventually, sorry it's got mislaid/lost. So i have reapplied for the .22 rimfire - had plent cooling off time!!
I'm expecting same reply about the mod but we'll see.
PS By the way when I sent in the letter from the dealer I said on it that the mod was incorporated in the application. So just wait and see.

medicman

hi all, just got a call from my garda, he has my mod permit from the super, T8 here i come, hope it works out for those who are still waiting.

Trojan911

Jaysus Clive, you are not having much luck. First the rifle and now the Mod. Hope all goes well for your meeting, not much I can say except some good advice already given on this thread.

clivej

Thanks lads for the postive responce and hints as to what to say.
I'll get it all together on Monday for the meeting on Tuesday afternoon.

But sure I got the OK and the CZ 223 varmint so the mod will/would be the icing on the cake. But if not then that will also be OK.

Tackleberry.

medicman wrote: »

hi all, just got a call from my garda, he has my mod permit from the super, T8 here i come, hope it works out for those who are still waiting.

Here's one for ya I've a permit for a mod and it was up for renewal last Sep 17, so I'd applied for the renewal in time and I'm again jumping thru hoops trying to get it, story goes something like reapplied to super, as he was fair enough to give me permit to start with after we had a meeting about having one, but the super's clerk opened my renewal application and sent it back to my local station,( like it says to on the permit), i knew this but wanted to deal with the super as the local gards take for ever to decide who's buying the donuts, so the local gards had it for weeks and then sent it back to the super saying that they cant deal with it, saying "only a super can "so back it went and its Dec now and Super is on hols till 19dec .... still waiting ..and i was told not to use mod till I've the paperwork sorted feel like I'm back at the start.
Does everyone go thru this every year?

hazza

Got a call Friday re licensing for .22 with mod. Went to the local barracks filled in the form - everything fine there. Then was given an authorisation form for sound "modulator" for the rifle 3 x A4 sheets.
Questions were a) List reasons for requiring modulator - could only think of these: Shooting near livestock & farm buildings. Prevent alarming other quarry nearby. Didnt mention night shooting or H&S reasons.
b) Understand/Agree to any conditions that may be attached - none listed on authorisation form, so not sure about this one. But said yes here.
c) What precautions have you made re public safety - said I had completed hunter competency course (HCAP certified) and was fully insured under CA.
d) Supporting information - Gun club member 100+ years.
Member of this assoc. & member of that one.
Coillte letting blah blah.......

I think thats all 'on mature recollection' that was asked on the form. But it is pretty daunting if you go in cold and havent had a chance to think about the reasons and needs for having a mod.
So thanks guys for a very informative thread - a lot of what was discussed here was thankfully still fresh in the old noggin when I was filling in that form. Hopefully I can relate a successful outcome at a later date.

meathmannn

In response to the origional thread, it sounds like you got a reasonable Super. Most of them are extreemly busy/pressurised individuals and can be impossible to meet face to face.

Best of luck with the meeting. If you have a genuine need for a mod then I hope everything works out.

riflehunter77

clivej wrote: »

Sorry I should have stated that this letter refers to the 22lr, I expect the refusal for the 223 is in the post as well.

I have made an appointment for the 16th to talk with the Super.
Look I think he's sound out, after all I did get the 223 license. I hope he only needs some assurance that I'm OK.
And if I'm still refused then I'll only be waking up the neighbourhood after all.

How did you get on clive did the meeting go ahead yesterday ?

clivej

Meeting went very well and found Superintendent O'Sullivan to be receptive and very willing to listen and he also put forward some valid points of his concern. I put all my points across to him about how 3 of my 4 shoots have livestock and horses on them and my needs for use of a moderator.
Anyway the final outcome was that the Super would not commit himself to an answer there and then but will get back to me next week or very soon after Christmas.
I came away with a positive feeling to our meeting and even if I still get a refusal I sorta don’t mind too much now, if you get what I mean.
I did drop a hint about going for a bigger caliber for stalking next year, sow the seed so to speak, and he did not dismiss it out of hand, so I’m well pleased with that.
I’ll get back with news when I get something to report on.

hazza

Sounds like you had a good meeting clivej. With any luck you'll get a favourable response and have your mod in the new year.
Good luck and happy christmas.

rrpc

Sounds good Clive, just goes to prove that meeting your Super is always a good idea. As you said, you can hear his concerns and he can hear your reasons.

Just makes life easier for everybody.

Good luck.

riflehunter77

Good to hear the meeting went well clive, he sounds like a good bloke fair play to the two of ye. Hope it works for you keep us updated.

bunny shooter

Clive what were his concerns?

Trojan911

Good on you Clive. At least now he has met you and seen you for what you are i.e You're not just another name on a peice of paper.

Sounds like a reasonable chap, we'll await the outcome. Fingers crossed for you.

PS: I would be interested in his concerns also...

Tackleberry.

I got my renewal permit today so back to legal owning of a T8.
But just a point, when i met with my Super he realy taught it was like the movies and that one of his concerns was that people would not know i was nearby shooting my t8 /243, i'd a job convineing him that there was still a fair bang with the mod on the rifle