Government acts after 3 months over dioxins in pork and then after it is found in UK

Mr.Micro

Why has it taken 3 months of exposure to all consumers of dioxin ridden pork and pork products beore anything was done and then it does not appear to have been detected here first, this from the BBC....

The presence of the dioxin polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) - a substance banned in the Irish Republic since the 1970s - in animal feed and pork samples was confirmed on Saturday afternoon in test results from a UK laboratory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7769391.stm

Do we have a food watchdog? To me this is an appalling failure by the authorities ( or lack of them ) in Ireland in 2008.

mikemac

Most of what is produced in Ireland is exported. And this is a disaster for the industry and its reputation which may take years to recover.
A lot of people will lose their jobs over this as sales collapse.

Food Safety Authority Ireland is the authority here.
And I think you knew this already.......
Dept of Agriculture have inspectors doing site visits also

Mr.Micro

micmclo wrote: »

Most of what is produced in Ireland is exported. And this is a disaster for the industry and its reputation which may take years to recover.
A lot of people will lose their jobs over this as sales collapse.

Food Safety Authority Ireland is the authority here.
And I think you knew this already.......
Dept of Agriculture have inspectors doing site visits also

My worry is that it was not picked up here first, and why not? It looks like people supposed to be doing the job were asleep including the Dept of agriculture. Jobs are one thing, what about the harm to childrens and all others health? It is unacceptable and incompetent.

Moriarty

From what I gather it was detected here first with a number of farms put under restriction on wednesday, but they had to send samples to a lab in the UK for confirmation.

It's another story on whether we should have a lab here that's capable of performing this sort of analysis, or whether the lab in the UK is highly specialised in this area for one reason or another.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

My worry is that it was not picked up here first, and why not? It looks like people supposed to be doing the job were asleep including the Dept of agriculture. Jobs are one thing, what about the harm to childrens and all others health? It is unacceptable and incompetent.

It was picked up here first. By the people who are supposed to be doing the job. They use a UK laboratory for tests.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It was picked up here first. By the people who are supposed to be doing the job. They use a UK laboratory for tests.

Why did it take 3 months then? By this time tonnes of pork sold and exported. Why test or check after 3 months. It does not wash. Its not good enough. Even if it was detected here first it seems a very slow process of wait and see. It does not take much in scientific terms to detect dioxins.

P. Breathnach

Who says that it took three months? The same people who say that it was detected in the UK?

oscarBravo

I haven't seen that three months figure anywhere else.

I had bought a leg of pork yesterday in Tesco, was looking forward to roasting it today but brought it back for a refund instead. I probably would have cheerfully eaten it - I think the risk involved in things like this is overhyped - but her indoors wouldn't have eaten it, so meh.

grizzly

http://www.videojug.com/interview/dioxin-and-pcbs-explained

This will give people an idea of how dangerous PCBs are. The effects won't show up for years to come in the form an increase to cancer rates. It's especially harmful to pregnant women.

It's very sad that we could not protect against this. It's something I'd expect from a third world country that has limited resources and scientific expertise to safeguard it population from toxins their food.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Who says that it took three months? The same people who say that it was detected in the UK?

Alert Notification: 2008.09

06 December 2008

Category I: For action

Country of Origin: Ireland

Product: Pork & Bacon Products

Batch Code: Produced from animals slaughtered in Ireland from September 1st 2008
Message

The Government today announced that laboratory results of animal feed and pork fat samples obtained this afternoon by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI) confirmed the presence of dioxins. The levels were found to be in breach of Commission Regulation (EC) No 1881/2006 setting maximum levels for certain contaminants in foodstuffs.

Consequently, the FSAI is requiring the food industry to recall from the market all Irish pork products produced from pigs slaughtered in Ireland from 1st September 2008. This recall involves retailers, the hospitality sector and the Irish pig processing sector.

Investigations involving the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (DAFF) and the FSAI are continuing to determine the extent of the contamination and to identify the processors and products involved.
Nature of danger

http://www.fsai.ie/alerts/fa/fa_08/fs20081206.asp

1st September 2008, so somebody suspected that the feed was wrong or whatever yet it takes 3 months to stop all products and recall. Not acceptable in 2008 in an EU country. Yes and it was detected in the UK, and only then was the pork recalled. Its about time we have our own services to test for toxins and other substances instead of having to rely on other countries to do our work for us. If the feed was suspected at the start, the pork should have been recalled as a precaution and not when the horse has bolted, money matters more than people obviously.

The Raven.

grizzly wrote: »

http://www.videojug.com/interview/dioxin-and-pcbs-explained

This will give people an idea of how dangerous PCBs are. The effects won't show up for years to come in the form an increase to cancer rates. It's especially harmful to pregnant women.

It's very sad that we could not protect against this. It's something I'd expect from a third world country that has limited resources and scientific expertise to safeguard it population from toxins their food.

:eek::eek::eek:!!!

And there I was thinking it was safe to eat mostly fish and vegetables. Is smoked fish or ham worse?

According to the Times:

The contamination first came to light last Monday but was only confirmed by Government officials today.

A whole week ago, but I suppose they had to be certain before confirming it.

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland made the announcement shortly before 8pm after pig meat on a number of farms was found to have had between 80 and 200 times more dioxins that the recognised safety limit.

That seems an incredibly high amount of dioxins. How on earth could such an amount have gotten in to the animal feed from the one source? So far, I haven’t seen any information on this, but could have missed it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1206/breaking44.htm

ejmaztec

I wouldn't be surprised were all overseas customers to refuse to accept any Irish produce as a result of this. A total disaster all round. Didn't it take years for Iran to accept Irish beef again?

I hope they don't drag out any investigation in the hope that it will all fade away.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

1st September 2008, so somebody suspected that the feed was wrong or whatever yet it takes 3 months to stop all products and recall.

Nowhere is there any indication that anybody thought, or had reason to think, that there was anything wrong at that time. All that we know is that there is something wrong currently.

Villain

What are the regulations on traceability of pork? i.e. are they the same as beef?

I really can't understand how they have had to recall all products if only 8 farms from 400 approx have been affected, surely if traceability was good enough they could control the recall?

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Nowhere is there any indication that anybody thought, or had reason to think, that there was anything wrong at that time. All that we know is that there is something wrong currently.

WRONG, according to RTE news it was the Italians who noticed for months( obviously since sept 08) that there was something wrong with the fat in the Irish pork and asked the authorities to check here and if they had confidence in the systems and checks. It was only last monday that the dept did something it appears. It is looking like the authorities just sat on their hands hoping it would go away despite being notified that there were problems with the pork fat, and only acted when forced. I would like to know how such meat passed any inspection at the time of production if the pork fat was wrong, thus indicating that there was a major problem?

Moriarty

Mr. Micro, you're basing an argument on a lot of what are - at present - still rumours. Let's see what comes out over the next day or two on who knew what when. On the face of it at the moment, I don't see anything the government or public services could have done better.. first alert apparently on Monday, traced back and samples sent for analysis by wednesday/thursday, results a day later and then a public announcement of exactly what the problem is.

I've no idea on how long it takes for pigs to go from being on the farm to being bought by me in their various parts, no idea what the story is with dioxin/other tests on foods in general and no idea how we differ from other countries. I'm sure all of this will come out in the wash in the next few days however, and then we can make an informed decision on whether anyone dropped the ball or not.

lostexpectation

you think the gov will tell us the truth?

P. Breathnach

lostexpectation wrote: »

you think the gov will tell us the truth?

Yes (for a broad definition of "gov"). So far, the FSA have been quite forthcoming.

GuanYin

lostexpectation wrote: »

you think the gov will tell us the truth?

You make it sound like government are one Giant body that tracks and knows what each limb is doing.

I'm pretty sure your Food Safety branch will be acting both independently and within the guidelines of international ethics boards when it comes to informing the public of health risks.

Firetrap

It does bring into question yet again the farming practices used for rearing pigs and poultry. There's a race to the bottom when it comes to production costs. Interesting too that nobody's come out and said "it's safe to keep eating organic pork".

Either way, it's a massive blow for the Irish pork industry. All you have to do is walk into a supermarket today and look at all the empty fridge space to see how much pork we eat.

The FSA did the right thing by pulling everything off the shelves straight away. I presume they learned lessons from the controversy the other week with the bottled water.

muckety

It seems only a minority of the farms using the contaminated feed were pig farms, so why is it only pork products that have been removed from sale? Would it be anything to do with the strength of the beef industry?

And wasn't it the FSA that were responsible for the lack of information on the source of Salmonella from an Irish meat factory earlier this year ? It doesn't instill confidence!

gandalf

This should cost the jobs of the Minister for Agriculture, The top ranking Civil Servant in the Dept, The head of the FSA and anyone else who are supposed to be responsible for these areas. Until it does then mess ups like this one will continue. Another example of no accountability with government and their organs within the state.

P. Breathnach

gandalf wrote: »

This should cost the jobs of the Minister for Agriculture, The top ranking Civil Servant in the Dept, The head of the FSA and anyone else who are supposed to be responsible for these areas.

That is an extraordinary suggestion. There was a problem; the FSAI became aware of it; they checked things out and confirmed things; they, along with politicians and other public servants, told us about it, and gave advice on what to do.

What should they have differently to save their jobs?

It is odd that people seem to think it more appropriate to punish those who are reporting the problem rather than those who caused it.

Vegeta

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It is odd that people seem to think it more appropriate to punish those who are reporting the problem rather than those who caused it.

Its odd that you seem to think they are mutually exclusive. Is their job not to report AND monitor?

gandalf

Well if it is true that they knew there was a problem for 3 months then they should have acted on it immediately.

This issue has apparently cost 100 Million Euro and god knows what the cost will be for the damage that it causes to our pork industry worldwide (and other agricultural based industries). If they are responsible for these areas and there have been failures they need to go. Anything else is a cop out. As you go down the chain you remove those who also have been involved and if it becomes apparent that some have consciously allowed or carried out the poisoning they should be prosecuted and jailed.

I suppose it all depends on whether you want standards in public office/service or accountability? If you are happy with the status quo then I suppose everything is hunky dory, sure the PAYE worker will pick up the tab as normal.

Moriarty

gandalf wrote: »

I suppose it all depends on whether you want standards in public office/service or accountability?

.. or whether you want to have hysterical reactions to unconfirmed rumours on a still-developing situation to sate your political beliefs. You know, whichever.

Vegeta

Moriarty wrote: »

.. or whether you want to have hysterical reactions to unconfirmed rumours on a still-developing situation to sate your political beliefs. You know, whichever.

Or you know, you could quote where gandalf said

gandalf wrote: »

If they are responsible for these areas

Which implies that we reserve judgement until the facts are known.

jmayo

gandalf wrote: »

Well if it is true that they knew there was a problem for 3 months then they should have acted on it immediately.

This issue has apparently cost 100 Million Euro and god knows what the cost will be for the damage that it causes to our pork industry worldwide (and other agricultural based industries). If they are responsible for these areas and there have been failures they need to go. Anything else is a cop out. As you go down the chain you remove those who also have been involved and if it becomes apparent that some have consciously allowed or carried out the poisoning they should be prosecuted and jailed.

I suppose it all depends on whether you want standards in public office/service or accountability? If you are happy with the status quo then I suppose everything is hunky dory, sure the PAYE worker will pick up the tab as normal.

Yes if there are failures then heads should roll.
Also if it is found that the feed producer knowlingly let feed onto the market that was contaminated then their company should be heavily fined and removed as supplier forever.

The government probably wanted to avoid a situation similar to the one that happened in Belgium a few years ago where the government affectively tried to sweep a problem under the carpet.
Thus they have a recall of everything.

Some people here are getting carried away, the number of farms and thus animals affected appears quiet small at the moment.
The level of exposure also apepars to be quiet small.
Also who here smokes may I ask, becuase if you do then you have a much bigger problem than this.

PS Gandalf people working in bacon factories also are PAYE workers, the pig farmers who are relying on the Christmas market to stay afloat, who may now have to slaughter all their animals also pay tax I bet, so do their workers.
There will be no winners out of this situation.

As of now we do not know if it wreckless behaviour or just an accident that caused this and until we know we can't hang anyone out to dry.

P. Breathnach

gandalf wrote: »

Well if it is true that they knew there was a problem for 3 months then they should have acted on it immediately.

They didn't know.

It's a good idea to get your facts right before you call for people to lose their jobs.

gandalf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

They didn't know.

It's a good idea to get your facts right before you call for people to lose their jobs.

I'm sorry but reports out there suggest that the Italian, French and Belgian authorities detected higher levels of dioxins last September. When we have FOUR different organisations that are supposed to be responsible for food safety. How come foreign organisations were detecting this before we were as far back as September. Given the importance of this sector to our economy I would have expected that we would have the capacity and ability to detect this.

Again given the scale of this disaster in any other country the Minister responsible would have done the honourable thing and resigned. That's one thing you can never accuse a FF lead Government of.

gandalf

jmayo wrote: »

PS Gandalf people working in bacon factories also are PAYE workers, the pig farmers who are relying on the Christmas market to stay afloat, who may now have to slaughter all their animals also pay tax I bet, so do their workers.
There will be no winners out of this situation.

As of now we do not know if it wreckless behaviour or just an accident that caused this and until we know we can't hang anyone out to dry.

Oh I am well aware of that, given especially that workers have been laid off already at Rosderra Meats in Edenderry, Roscrea, Clara, Jamestown and Stradone.

Given this sector is so important to the country and given the amount of monies paid over including 12 million last year for a Food Testing Laboratory in Backweston I would have assumed we would be capable to detect when a major problem like this became apparent rather that wait 3 months after other countries detected anomalies in food stuffs provided by us?

P. Breathnach

gandalf wrote: »

I'm sorry but reports out there suggest that the Italian, French and Belgian authorities detected higher levels of dioxins last September.

The reports I have heard say that they could not identify the source of the higher levels. If you want heads on a platter, cite sources that support your allegations.

mike65

The mill has been named (its in Carlow) and the dioxins came from an unlicenced oil.

It was suggested this morning that the "cake" feed base material had been dried out with a hot air system, if so a leaky fuel union could be all thats needed to contaminate the airflow.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jpm_py5K4_xFlIAA_ZBtcCgJH2YA

Mr.Micro

It is breath taking that the authorities here appear to have only acted when contacted by other nations such as the Italians and Belgians. It does not say much for these watchdogs IMO, now trying to cover their backsides. As I posted yesterday, how come the meat inspectors here noticed nothing wrong with the pork?

I happen to know the area in Carlow where the plant that is allegedly to be involved in the production of the contaminated feed exists. I have a very deep concern that all the dioxins emitted in the burning of the oil have contaminated the land, the water, animals and people living in the vicinity for miles around. There was no mention of this dioxin fallout on the news or has it not occurred to the authorities yet? The burning of this oil has gone on for some considerable time. In the past I noted the emissions from a few miles away long before passing the plant, such was the volume of emission.

mike65

The dept has not been near that plant for levels testing in 2008.

Mr.Micro

I suspect that if the dept does test the land for miles around they will be find very high levels of dioxin in the environment. I think that this has escaped the attention of the authorities and indeed it may have travelled farther on the wind and fallen out over Carlow County and others. Its an absolute disgrace. Its not just the contaminated pork but its also the land and environment and possible greater consequences down the line.

beggars_bush

will we see a resignation?

Mr.Micro

beggars_bush wrote: »

will we see a resignation?

I very much doubt it. Why should we be surprised though that the official watchdogs are often not up to the job, remember the cancer screeing and misdiagnosis debacle. Nobody resigned as far as I know.

A Dub in Glasgo

More likely to see one of the contaminated pigs flying

lostexpectation

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The reports I have heard say that they could not identify the source of the higher levels.

i don't know why that's an excuse for anything, still the possibility they found out first.


"
The investigation into the source of Ireland’s largest food scare since BSE began with the routine sampling of a pig carcass on September 19th.

However, it was weeks later, on November 26th, when the routine sample showed up a high level of dioxin-like PCBs. "

what are they saying happened between these two dates

lostexpectation

how long has brendan smith been minister for agri?

trevor sargeant said the feed has been checked but not the plant in 2008 but it would be...:o

The Raven.

Firetrap wrote: »

Interesting too that nobody's come out and said "it's safe to keep eating organic pork".

Good point. I wonder how safe it would be if the ‘organic’ pigs were reared in the vicinity of the recycling plant in question or any other such air-polluting places?

Another curious fact is that ‘none of the thousands of pigs involved in the lockdown of the pig farms have been slaughtered’, according to the Times today. I’m surprised they haven’t died or become seriously ill.

As regards resignations:

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

More likely to see one of the contaminated pigs flying

You never know. Stranger things have happened. Wait until the test results on cattle come out tomorrow.

P. Breathnach

The Raven. wrote: »

Another curious fact is that ‘none of the thousands of pigs involved in the lockdown of the pig farms have been slaughtered’, according to the Times today. I’m surprised they haven’t died or become seriously ill.

Indeed. And what about all those people who have eaten pork products in the past few weeks? The hospitals will shortly be even more crowded, two to a bed (three, if small); undertakers will be seriously overworked; there will be a coffin crisis; the graveyards will be full (no cremations, because the crematoria will be booked up for pig carcases).

Now, if the Dublin incinerator had not been so delayed...

lostexpectation

timeline http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1208/1228571631237.html?via=mr

Phototoxin

Why has it taken 3 months of exposure to all consumers of dioxin ridden pork and pork products beore anything was done and then it does not appear to have been detected here first, this from the BBC....

Quote:
The presence of the dioxin polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) - a substance banned in the Irish Republic since the 1970s - in animal feed and pork samples was confirmed on Saturday afternoon in test results from a UK laboratory.

I would like to know ;

1 why is it around if its supposed to be banned almost 40 years?
2 why so long to find out?
3 why a UK lab... I know ireland is sh*t in terms of science but come on?
4 why is no one accountable?

Oh wait I know the answer -because its ireland and we're special and doing everying cocked and half arsed with no one accountable for anything, anything least of all the government as evidenced by crooked taoiseachs, brown envelopes and so forth.

mike65

Good to see the gubberment has its hand out, an Irish failure to be bailed out with EU money.

Mr.Micro

Apparently the plant was due to be inspected just after the crisis started ( now that's probably a porky), but it is suggested that this plant was off the radar and that neither the EPA or the Dept of agriculture were checking it or had done this year. The regulation is that samples of the feed are supposed to be collected on inspections and tested. If this had been done the dioxin would have been detected, but it looks like the plant was free to operate without hindrance. The EPA is also supposed to check emissions so why was this plant not even checked for those let alone the feed. Have not got a clue thats why. Leave the science and technology to other countries. The Government here needs to get real instead of having the EPA, Food authority, Dept of Agriculture all running around and not a scientist amongst them pretending that they are doing a job. I would add that if and when any inspection occurs at a plant it is probably advertized in advance and not a spot check, allowing any rogue operator to clean up the place and then continue after the inspection IMO.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro, you started this discussion with inaccuracies. You are not doing a whole lot better now. Most of your latest post is speculation and adoption of unreasonable positions. In particular, you make accusations of lying about inspections, of negligent protocols.

Yet you are so ill-informed that you seem to think that checking food safety is the business of the EPA, and that the EPA should have detected this problem by checking emissions!

Both the FSAI and the EPA have scientists on their staff and access to further expertise as needed.

The FSAI are the good guys. They discovered the problem and quickly traced it back to its source. Then they told us. And for that you characterise them as incompetent and dishonest.

I think you are being unreasonable.

AtomicHorror

Phototoxin wrote: »

I would like to know ;

1 why is it around if its supposed to be banned almost 40 years?

Isn't it an import ban? If something had said dioxin in it pre-1970 then it would remain but need to be disposed of correctly if and when detected.

Phototoxin wrote: »

2 why so long to find out?

It's not all that clear what was going on in that regard.

Phototoxin wrote: »

3 why a UK lab... I know ireland is sh*t in terms of science but come on?

Probably cost. The lab probably specialises in assaying for dioxin contamination under GLP/GCP protocols. They probably do it in bulk for less.

Phototoxin wrote: »

4 why is no one accountable?

I think we can safely say they will be. The public are now looking for blood.

Villain

Didn't you just love Seargant's reply to the question that the firm hadn't been inspected during 2008 on Q&A last night? He said "it was due to be inspected"

Fratton Fred

Apparantly the stuff that goes into animal feeds can be pretty gruesome, such as old chip fat, the dregs from the fermintation process in a brewery, pretty much anything than is theoretically edible. Because of this, it is very hard to estabish where dioxines could come from. It could even be from someone trying to bulk up the food by adding diesal, which is not unheard of.

There are only a few places in the UK that can test for dioxins and the tests themselves will cost up to £1400, which is probably why they don't get done that often.