Veritas radio ad banned

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

robindch

Veritas wrote: »

"give a gift that means more"

Whatever about the BCI think about the ad, I'd expect the Advertising Standards Authority might have issues with that line.

PDN

It is illegal to advertise religion on terrestrial TV or radio in Ireland.

Apparently that now also extends to the most tentative and innocuous hint of religion.

monkeyfudge

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Or replace Veritas with Dianetics? It's a slippery slope.

Hellm0

Well in fairness you wouldn't want Scientology commissioning ad's for their "Psychotherapy" would you? I'm sure to them that would be a "gift that really matters".

Bah, I was beaten to it.

2Scoops

A masterstroke by Veritas! By refusing to make simple edits and manufacturing a contrived controversy out of their own obstinacy, they are getting tons and tons of free advertising! And yes, I realize that by writing this post, I am complicit as well.

Veritas, more than most, know that you can always rely on the plain people of Ireland to have their typical knee-jerk reaction to perceived 'political correctness gone mad.'

I hope they make lots of money out of this. Perhaps in their next ad they might be brave enough to mention that the 'gift that means more' is actually some kind of tacky religious trinket - though, I doubt that would be as appealing to the gift-buying public as the War on Christmas™.

philologos

It's irrespective. Veritas should not have to make any edits to this advert, it's secularism going too far. I wonder how long until Ireland reaches the disastrous mess that nations like France and Turkey are in in relation to extreme secularism.

Also books, candles, etc do not have any comparison to psychotherapy. There is no actual mention to religious acts in this or even religious items.

2Scoops

Jakkass wrote: »

It's irrespective. Veritas should not have to make any edits to this advert, it's secularism going too far.

Veritas should not have to obey the law? I see. Political correctness gone mad, I'm sure.

Jakkass wrote: »

I wonder how long until Ireland reaches the disastrous mess that nations like France and Turkey are in in relation to extreme secularism.

Examples where secularism (i.e. the philosophy that matters of civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element) has caused problems in France or Turkey, please.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

Also books, candles, etc do not have any comparison to psychotherapy. There is no actual mention to religious acts in this or even religious items.

Surely any books published by a Christian publisher would be religious. I think the comparison to Scientology and their dangerous psychotherapy is substantiated.

But personally I wouldn't think anything of the ad if it got through, although I'm glad to see the BCI are going hard on religious ads considering the amount of times you hear of ads with even the slightest joke about religion banned.

Seth Brundle

PDN wrote: »

It is illegal to advertise religion on terrestrial TV or radio in Ireland.

Apparently that now also extends to the most tentative and innocuous hint of religion.

Surely then all adverts that reference Christmas should be banned?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

CerebralCortex

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Its offensive. Its pretty obvious no? I'm sick of being told by the religious how sad, miserable, materialistic and cold hearted (see Mary Kenny's article in the indo) I am and how my way of celebrating this time of year means less. I for one am glad this add was banned.

PDN

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If the letter of the law is applied then an advert for such a performance of The Messiah should definitely be banned as its religious content is way more explicit than the proposed Veritas ad.

However, as we know, that is not the way the law is applied in this country.

The ad for the National Concert Hall is permissable because we all understand that they are saying, "Well, it is a religious piece but we don't really believe it. We just play it as a nice piece of music"

Ads by 11890 (11890 "saves" with a parody of a claphappy revivalist) or the Daily Star (Amen magazine) that use overt religious terminology are also deemed OK because they are mocking said religion. Therefore, once again, they don't actually believe in the stuff.

But Veritas are not permitted to give the slightest hint that they might actually believe in the Christ part of Christmas.

The offence, apparently, is in the believing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

monkeyfudge

To be honest I'd like the same controls applied to all advertising.

It's how I generally like advertising announcements to be done on my own radio station, I think we do fail in that respect a lot unfortunately.

All adverts should be a statement of fact. What is being sold, where is it on sale, how much does it cost. That's all any honest retailer should want.

But as it stands. Religion, like alcohol and medicine are the ones put under tighter regulation and rightly so. You may think that your religion is innocuous enough, but giving religions free reign on the airwaves to mass indoctrinate is dangerous. Religions don't just want you to spend a few bob on buying a new stove, they want to permeate every aspect of your life.

Clearly this was a deliberate move by Veritas though. They've been given the opportunity to amend the text of the advert to comply with the broadcasting act and haven't changed it.

There's currently a new broadcasting bill being pushed through. It may be a bit late in the game, but if it's something you feel strongly about then contact your local TD.

philologos

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Surely any books published by a Christian publisher would be religious. I think the comparison to Scientology and their dangerous psychotherapy is substantiated.

But personally I wouldn't think anything of the ad if it got through, although I'm glad to see the BCI are going hard on religious ads considering the amount of times you hear of ads with even the slightest joke about religion banned.

It's absolutely crackers, read the text of the advert again. The books, aren't mentioned of which type they are, therefore it's not religious advertising. Likewise with the candles.

2Scoops wrote: »

Veritas should not have to obey the law? I see. Political correctness gone mad, I'm sure.



Examples where secularism (i.e. the philosophy that matters of civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element) has caused problems in France or Turkey, please.

There's nothing illegal about their advert, so I don't see any reason to ban it apart from censorship.

As for secularism in France and Turkey, yes it's dangerous, it isolates the faithful such as Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, etc in the case of France. Which is intolerance to the highest degree. Likewise in Turkey with the headscarf ban. It's extremist secularism and it's time that people tell their governments that they have had enough of it. People have a right to express themselves, France and Turkey deny this right.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

It's absolutely crackers, read the text of the advert again. The books, aren't mentioned of which type they are, therefore it's not religious advertising. Likewise with the candles.

But its a religious publisher advertising their books, therefore religious advertising.

monkeyfudge

Ciaran500 wrote: »

But its a religious publisher advertising their books, therefore religious advertising.

Yep. And by using the 'and more' bit they are referencing that the religious aspect has merits that other books would not have, which is in violation of the broadcasting act.

Working within the act they are more than entitled to say they have the books for sale though. This doesn't seem to be enough for them though.

CerebralCortex

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not worked up I just think a statment like a "gift that means more" is kind of prejudiced, mildy offensive and could be taken as a subtle form of proselytising i.e. that you can't trump our brand of religious gift for meaning.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Poifect!

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I haven't banned the law has, which is great! Have a good Yuketide celebration.

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

It's irrespective. Veritas should not have to make any edits to this advert, it's secularism going too far. I wonder how long until Ireland reaches the disastrous mess that nations like France and Turkey are in in relation to extreme secularism.

I don't normally post here but I think that laying this at the door of "secularism" may be a mistake. This ban has pretty much been in place since 1960:

20 (4) The Authority shall not accept any advertisement which is directed towards any religious or political end or has any relation to any industrial dispute.
1960 Broadcasting Act

It doesn't seem reasonable to me to say that in 1960 the then minister of Posts and Telegraphs had some sort of secular agenda, for example RTE shows Catholic Mass, the Angelus and had a catholic symbol as part of its logo for years.

Has anyone got any information who wanted that ban and why? Did the Catholic church object at the time, or possibly looking at 1960's Ireland did they want it or even ask for it?

They may be entirely innocent of this, and maybe the then P&T minister Michael Hilliard had some hidden secular agenda, but I find it hard to believe that if the Catholic church had wanted to be able to advertise on RTE they couldn't have done something about it.

philologos

Ciaran500 wrote: »

But its a religious publisher advertising their books, therefore religious advertising.

So I guess Veritas won't be able to advertise. Should Hoggis Figgis, Easons, Waterstones etc not advertise because they sell the Bible, the Tanakh and the Qur'an? It's a bit ridiculous don't you think? I don't think the ban is because of the nature of the company since the BCI have only asked them to change the text, which would indicate it was a textual issue not one of who they are. It's a bad argument.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

So I guess Veritas won't be able to advertise. Should Hoggis Figgis, Easons, Waterstones etc not advertise because they sell the Bible, the Tanakh and the Qur'an? It's a bit ridiculous don't you think? I don't think the ban is because of the nature of the company since the BCI have only asked them to change the text, which would indicate it was a textual issue not one of who they are. It's a bad argument.

The problem isn't that they're advertising religious books, it's that they are implying their books are better cause they're religious. They're promoting a religion.

philologos

Where does it say that their books are going to be better because they are religious, they could be better because of the content? It's going down a slippery slope if we are going to ban things based on alleged implications. Where in the text do they promote Christianity? Mind you I wouldn't mind if they did to be honest, but I'm biased

kincsem

In the USA it is "happy holidays" not "happy Christmas". That is a bit sly. They will take a day off work for a holiday they don't celebrate.

How do Veritas advertise if that ad is unacceptable? "We sell things".

Ciaran500

This Christmas, why not give a gift that means more?
So to give a gift that means more, drop into your local Veritas shop

I assume its these lines causing a problem. Its implying there's something special or unique in there books, an average ad would probably get away with it but its a bit preachy in this religious context.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Where does it say that their books are going to be better because they are religious...

It says and I quote:

"Christmas: aren't we forgetting something? This Christmas, why not give a gift that means more?"

They may be better books but to suggest the have more meaning is cleary a religious statement and a promotion of their particular religion. Bearing in mind that it is Veritas.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's going down a slippery slope if we are going to ban things based on alleged implications.

No its not the law is being enforced exactly as it should be.

Jakkass wrote: »

Where in the text do they promote Christianity? Mind you I wouldn't mind if they did to be honest, but I'm biased

Trip to specksavers maybe in order.

CerebralCortex

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Exactly thats why they banned it.

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

It says and I quote:

"Christmas: aren't we forgetting something? This Christmas, why not give a gift that means more?"

They may be better books but to suggest the have more meaning is cleary a religious statement and a promotion of their particular religion. Bearing in mind that it is Veritas.

Meaning more doesn't explicitly mean in religious terms. It's not clearly in religious terms. I could say that and mean entirely a different thing than religion. I find no issue with that anyway.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No its not the law is being enforced exactly as it should be.

No... it's ridiculous manipulation of the law to allow for extremist secularism and such tripe to be accepted in this country.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Trip to specksavers maybe in order.

They don't explictly support Christianity anywhere in the text.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

philologos

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Evidently it isn't a problem at all. PDN's description is probably the most accurate we have read so far in this thread.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

toiletduck

I don't see a problem with the ad. I think the whole 'mess' was best summed up by 2scoops.

2Scoops wrote: »

A masterstroke by Veritas! By refusing to make simple edits and manufacturing a contrived controversy out of their own obstinacy, they are getting tons and tons of free advertising! And yes, I realize that by writing this post, I am complicit as well.

Veritas, more than most, know that you can always rely on the plain people of Ireland to have their typical knee-jerk reaction to perceived 'political correctness gone mad.'

I hope they make lots of money out of this. Perhaps in their next ad they might be brave enough to mention that the 'gift that means more' is actually some kind of tacky religious trinket - though, I doubt that would be as appealing to the gift-buying public as the War on Christmas™.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Meaning more doesn't explicitly mean in religious terms. It's not clearly in religious terms. I could say that and mean entirely a different thing than religion. I find no issue with that anyway.

Its Veritas anyone with half a brain can join the dots it so poorly disguised and so heavily implied that they might as well be explicitly trying to promote that that which is religious is holds more meaning.

Jakkass wrote: »

No... it's ridiculous manipulation of the law to allow for extremist secularism and such tripe to be accepted in this country.

Extremist secularism?!?! Care to explain what that term means?

Jakkass wrote: »

They don't explictly support Christianity anywhere in the text.

I never said they did, but there is a very clear implication and it is almost explicit if you know who Veritas are.

To say in an add something to the effect of "Veritas! Your source of books and paraphernalia for the Christmas season" I'd have no issue, probably neither would the law.

CerebralCortex

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not sure it does?

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Its Veritas anyone with half a brain can join the dots it so poorly disguised and so heavily implied that they might as well be explicitly trying to promote that that which is religious is holds more meaning.

Ah don't be ridiculous. Make up your mind. Is your objection because of the text or because you do not like the store? The latter doesn't wash, theres several things in society that I don't like, yet I tolerate them. Either the text mentions religion or it does not. In this case it doesn't and is in accordance with the rulings.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Extremist secularism?!?! Care to explain what that term means?

Sure when rules about separating church and state go too far, in violating the freedoms of businesses to advertise according to the rules in this case, or in the intention to marginalise religious people from the rest of society, such as Muslims and Sikhs in French schools. You cannot separate the people from their religion, people have to understand this. If we are to advocate freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. This has to be the way.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I never said they did, but there is a very clear implication and it is almost explicit if you know who Veritas are.

To say in an add something to the effect of "Veritas! Your source of books and paraphernalia for the Christmas season" I'd have no issue, probably neither would the law.

It's irrelevant who Veritas are. Either the text of the advert is promoting religion or it is. By that logic Veritas shouldn't be allowed to advertise at all, but they have not mentioned religion at all in the text. They've actually followed the rules well so it seems, yet they are still not allowed to advertise. It's ridiculous and any reasonable person should see it as such.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

Either the text mentions religion or it does not. In this case it doesn't and is in accordance with the rulings.

20 (4) The Authority shall not accept any advertisement which is directed towards any religious or political end or has any relation to any industrial dispute.
1960 Broadcasting Act

The ad doesn't have to mention religion.

philologos

It's not directed towards a religious end, but rather a commercial one. That's the point behind the advert to come in and buy things. If it was "Join our church", or "Join our mosque" I'd understand more.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not directed towards a religious end, but rather a commercial one. That's the point behind the advert to come in and buy things. If it was "Join our church", or "Join our mosque" I'd understand more.

Come on Jakkass don't act so innocent of course it has a religious end when an add talks about what we are missing in Christmas and that we've somehow diminished its meaning(an idea you probably agree with apologies if I'm wrong), the motives are pretty clear from the current banned text. The only people who would agree that by going to Veritas stores you would get more seasonally relevant and meaningful gifts are Christians.

PDN

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Or what about "reaches the parts that other beers cannot reach"?

In other words, it's OK for an advert to imply that a beer can give you something extra, but not to imply that a gift from a bookshop can do the same (presumably to avoid offending sensitive souls like cerebralcortex).

Meanwhile 11890 and the Daily Star are free to mock religious practices in their adverts.

Rev Hellfire

Advertisement in pitching products as better than the competition shocker!
I for one am offended... at the shear stupidity of the whole thing.

The BCI have done an excellent job of promoting Veritas and fair play to Veritas for milking the resulting situation. I'm sure its brought them to the attention of a whole horde of people who otherwise would never have been aware of them.

Ciaran500

PDN wrote: »

In other words, it's OK for an advert to imply that a beer can give you something extra, but not to imply that a gift from a bookshop can do the same (presumably to avoid offending sensitive souls like cerebralcortex).

Meanwhile 11890 and the Daily Star are free to mock religious practices in their adverts.

According to the law, yep.

keane2097

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Without religious faith the bible is simply a book of fairy tales and fables, so promoting it as more meaningful than bath salts forces the religious aspect of it onto people.

PDN

keane2097 wrote: »

donegalfella wrote: »

the idea that a Bible might be more "meaningful" than a set of bath salts gives rise to censorship. Why?

Without religious faith the bible is simply a book of fairy tales and fables, so promoting it as more meaningful than bath salts forces the religious aspect of it onto people.

Poor oppressed atheists. The slightest hint that a bookshop might offer a little more is 'forcing' stuff onto people.

keane2097

PDN wrote: »

keane2097 wrote: »

donegalfella wrote: »

the idea that a Bible might be more "meaningful" than a set of bath salts gives rise to censorship. Why?

Poor oppressed atheists. The slightest hint that a bookshop might offer a little more is 'forcing' stuff onto people.

Ok sorry to have used the word "force". You know what I mean though and you don't have to be so dismissive.

keane2097

PDN wrote: »

Or what about "reaches the parts that other beers cannot reach"?

In other words, it's OK for an advert to imply that a beer can give you something extra, but not to imply that a gift from a bookshop can do the same

The legislation is to do with religious and politically aimed advertisements. That's why these ads don't fall under it. This has been explained several times with the relevant leglislation even quoted more than once.

PDN wrote: »

(presumably to avoid offending sensitive souls like cerebralcortex)

This is hardly a worthwhile statement! It's a pity your only response to people who disagree with you is to dismiss and belittle them.

Otherwise we might be able to have a decent discussion.

Phototoxin

Its a joke and its the PC police being turds... despite there being nothing wrong with it.

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

Poor oppressed atheists. The slightest hint that a bookshop might offer a little more is 'forcing' stuff onto people.

Its obvious to me why your confused because I think you've missed the point. When listening or reading Veritas' add it clear states that there take on the celebration means more and that they have the appropriate tools/untensils to do that.

PDN wrote: »

Or what about "reaches the parts that other beers cannot reach"?

In other words, it's OK for an advert to imply that a beer can give you something extra, but not to imply that a gift from a bookshop can do the same (presumably to avoid offending sensitive souls like cerebralcortex).

Meanwhile 11890 and the Daily Star are free to mock religious practices in their adverts.

I think you've grossly misunderstood my point and now my sensitive soul is offended. :rolleyes: I expected more from you PDN. I mean are you honestly comparing taste in beer to how one chooses to lead ones life?

PDN

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I think you've grossly misunderstood my point and now my sensitive soul is offended. :rolleyes: I expected more from you PDN. I mean are you honestly comparing taste in beer to how one chooses to lead ones life?

So now the Veritas ad is referring how you choose to lead your life? What other hidden meanings can you detect?

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It doesn't have a mention of the link to a website where they do actively promote cathlocism in the same ad, for starters.

Seeing as its a blanket ban, I've no problem with it. For one thing, it saves on the amount of whinging when the various religons that may not be to the taste of some start to advertise.

Of course the real irony is that they ban all religous advertising, yet leave on the Angelus.

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

So now the Veritas ad is referring how you choose to lead your life? What other hidden meanings can you detect?

Now, you can imagine, I feel like your mocking me. If thats how you like to roll thats cool. My intention isn't to offend you not so sure what yours are though. No hidden meanings the message was as clear to me when I heard about it on today fm as when a priest would to talk to me and my peers in religion class. Judging from the texts that came in on that show it would seem my views are in the minority but history tells me that doesn't always mean one is wrong.