how many phone connections in a house?

Random

in a normal house with a normal phone line from eircom.

I want 5 connections for sky boxes, 1 for phone and one for dsl.

What's the best way to do this? Should i be using some sort of signal boosters or something?

Thanks

Random

Any thoughts lads?

Alun

You need to add up the REN's (Ringer Equivalence Numbers) of all attached devices. Should be on a sticker somewhere on each device. If it goes much above 4 or 5 you can get problems. Do all the Sky boxes (why on earth do you need 5 Sky boxes anyway?) need to be connected at all times?

Random

I have no idea what the hell you mean by RENs so I'll have to google that and look into it a bit more. Also will check the boxes.

Is there like a booster or something I can get if my REN is too high?

All the Sky Boxs have to be plugged in at the same time / all the time according to Sky .. so I'd like to at least aim toward that.

seamus

I don't know much about phone circuits, but surely it should be possible to create a second "circuit" purely for the Sky boxes, using power from the mains and then attach that (with a junction box or whatever) to the normal line?

If that's possible, it should solve any problems with RENs. If you lose mains power, you lose that circuit, but then the Sky boxes would be dead too anyway

Random

A quick look in Wiki there suggests my REN is going to be whopping as I'll have to put a DSL filter on each device too.

Looking more at it I seem to get the impression that REN is lower on a device if it's mains powered rather than phone line powered. All the Sky boxes are obviously plugged in, so is my modem and also is my phone? SO there's nothing using power from the phone line?

Seamus - you've lost me a little (completely), could you go into a bit more info?

Thanks

seamus

Random wrote: »

Seamus - you've lost me a little (completely), could you go into a bit more info?

I could try, but I might be completely wrong

I'm going to use networking terminology here because that's what I understand and afaik at a very basic level there's not much difference.

Essentially you have a single powered switch which all of the lines for the sky boxes come from. This switch then has a single connection to the PSTN line. This means that the total REN for all of the Sky Boxes is effectively zero because those lines are drawing their power from the switch, which is connected to the mains. The switch itself may have a small REN, but nothing approaching the five sky boxes.

As I say though, this concept could be completely wrong and the hardware to accomplish this may not even exist.

ethernet

Saw a device for increasing the effective REN of your line in Maplin once. Presumably it was for BT lines so you'd have to do some hackery in terms of getting it working with RJ11 connectors. Here is the device.

Random

I guess that would be something like what I'm looking for.

As for the wiring itself. I have the main socket. I'm thinking from this I run 2 cables. 1 for my internet and 1 for all the phones / Sky. Then I can just pop one filter on the phone one and extend it would from there (perhaps also incorporating the Maplin product).

Any thoughts?

FusionNet

Did you get this sorted? From my experience this set up seems to be being blown of of proportion with REN's and all that.. 5 sky boxes and i dsl and one reg line is a piece of pie.. 5 filters not needed etc. If you havent it sort post and let me know and ill talk you through it here. Im caught for time right now..

Random

Not sorted yet no, any further input greatly appreciated.

Username!

The max REN value in a house normally is 4. Phones usually use one and Sky uses about 0.5 REN, the Sky boxes don't technically dial out, Sky dials in to make sure they are still connected but still, it's like an active telephone. Was chatting to a Sky installer the other day about it.

The Broadband uses about 1 REN as well and yes, every device must be filtered and the Broadband should be connected to the main telephone point with a double filter and only 1 other device connected to the phone side (Sky or a phone) and not connected with an extension cable.

Total REN so far is 1 + 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 4.5 REN (a Booster is advised or just chuck off one of the Sky boxes temporarily).

How many phone points have you got in your house?

Are any of the points extensions off the main telephone point?

Random

Reading my Sky T&C it says my Sky box will dial out, where do you get the info that Sky doesn't dial out?

With regard to various extensions around the house etc. Am I right in thinking that if I have a socket in another room, even if it's not used - it's still increasing my REN?

Username!

As my comment said, technically it doesn't dial out, Sky "phones" your box to see if its still connected (I'm guessing so you don't take your Sky box to someone elses house or use the viewing card that's only €15 but getting you all the channels).

No that won't be using any REN, the device that's connected to it determines how much REN it uses.

Random

Posted before your edit.

I have a cable coming into my hallway. This ran to a box in the hallway. I had a socket here that the phone in the hallway was plugged into. There is a DSL filter on this phone. There was also a cable hard wired into this boxing running upstairs. This gave me my internet connection upstairs.

The Sky guy came out and has run 2 more connections from halfway through the upstairs cable which is running to 2 Sky boxs upstairs. There were no filters put on this.

He also put another box in the hallway downstairs between where the cable comes in and what I guess you might consider the master socket. In this he has a dual adapter with 2 cables running out for 2 more Sky boxs downstairs. No filters on these either. If these 2 are plugged in the phone will not work / ring.

There's also another phone cable in another room downstairs for another Sky box. I have no idea where this cable is running from at present.

Username!

That sounds like quite a serious mess of cable.

No matter what, the only only one that will get serious affect is the Broadband, that your should recieve the very first feed in the house and then the rest of the cabling can be split off from the Phone side on the filter, like in the images below, each one is a set example of how it should be:

1.



2.



3.



http://safecom.cn/code/product/adsl/filter/

Random

You've got 3 different setups there, you're saying only #1 should be done?

So I should have my main line coming into my hallway. I should have a connection box here. From this I should run a line for DSL and a line for all else. The line for all else should be filtered here.

Then I can split this "all else" line 5 or 6 times for the various Sky boxes and phones?

Also, there are mains adapters you can get for transmitting your phone signal around your house via power cables - do these have any effect on REN or line integrity etc?

Username!

Random wrote: »

You've got 3 different setups there, you're saying only #1 should be done?

So I should have my main line coming into my hallway. I should have a connection box here. From this I should run a line for DSL and a line for all else. The line for all else should be filtered here.

Then I can split this "all else" line 5 or 6 times for the various Sky boxes and phones?

Also, there are mains adapters you can get for transmitting your phone signal around your house via power cables - do these have any effect on REN or line integrity etc?

Any one of them setups will work, they're just examples of the most common types of setup.

As long as the very first point in the house is split with a DSL / Phone filter and the Broadband is connection and the rest is running off the Phone side, it should be grand (like in image 2.)

I don't see how that would decrease or increase the REN, it's basically just an extension cable but through the power lines, if anything it's a benifit because it's reducing the amount of Telephone cabling on the lines.

Random

Confused by your linked diagrams still. You seem to simply be suggesting that you put a filter on each cable that's not DSL. Am I missing something more obvious here or is that the point you're trying to make?

As for the earlier mentioned booster .. where would this go in such a setup? Would it go on the phone side or the DSL side or before the first box completely?

Thanks

Username!

Random wrote: »

I have a cable coming into my hallway. This ran to a box in the hallway. I had a socket here that the phone in the hallway was plugged into. There is a DSL filter on this phone. There was also a cable hard wired into this boxing running upstairs. This gave me my internet connection upstairs.

The Sky guy came out and has run 2 more connections from halfway through the upstairs cable which is running to 2 Sky boxs upstairs. There were no filters put on this.

He also put another box in the hallway downstairs between where the cable comes in and what I guess you might consider the master socket. In this he has a dual adapter with 2 cables running out for 2 more Sky boxs downstairs. No filters on these either. If these 2 are plugged in the phone will not work / ring.

Because you have some many cables running off your main telephone socket (as extensions), they need to be filtered from the main telephone point (with the double filter) and then they won't require filters upstairs... like in the second image.

There's also another phone cable in another room downstairs for another Sky box. I have no idea where this cable is running from at present.

This will need a single filter.

As for the earlier mentioned booster .. where would this go in such a setup? Would it go on the phone side or the DSL side or before the first box completely?

This would go on the main point first, before everything.



A bit of work will have to be done in order to get this working fully. The Broadband should be connected with a short cable to the main telephone point in the hall as well, otherwise your phones are not going to be the only devices with issues.

Random

Right this is a complete bloody mess then.

The guy from Sky is coming back out to sort out the phone cables again as he couldn't get it working the last day (and potentially made things worse?).

I'm wondering if he's really going to have time to go through any of this or if I should just bite the bullet and try wire it up myself.

As for the internet I was thinking of this:
Main phone cable with signal booster broken down then into
- DSL cable
-- dsl router downstairs. then use mains adapters to send the rj45 network cable to wherever i want the internet hard wired in the house
- Phone cable + filter
-- mains adapter to send rj11 upstairs. from here ill have a double socket running to 2 bedrooms
-- phone in hallway, sky boxes in 3 rooms downstairs

It really seems like i'm overloading stuff here though?

Random

Also will http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=32828#Faq work with Eircom once I use some BT > Rj11 adapters with it?

++ edit
This is pretty much what I need to do then from the above posts. Is this do-able myself? Should I hire a professional? Is the guy from Sky just gonna laugh at me?

Username!

Your practically right with that diagram except the Broadband should be filtered as well. Give it a go yourself if you think you can.

The phone point that you have splitting the red and blue should have the double filter on it first.

PS: It might be worth having your booster just before your phone lines begin (the blue wires in the diagram).

gibo_ie

just a quick few points:
you DO NOT need phone connection constantly plugged into Sky box, i have a few and never plugged them in after initial setup, even changed packages and never had to plug in. Only time is if you order box office movies etc..

For your filters, you need one DSL/PC filter on connection going to your router/modem which then coonnects to your PC as normal.
Then for all the other phone lines (which you wont need as many now) you need a filter on it, this is to stop interference on your phone calls and stop disconnections.
One daisychained like in eg 2 above or one on each phone socket like in eg 3 will work just fine.
But seriously consider running a connection to each sky box when you dont have to!!

Username!

gibo_ie wrote: »

just a quick few points:
you DO NOT need phone connection constantly plugged into Sky box, i have a few and never plugged them in after initial setup, even changed packages and never had to plug in. Only time is if you order box office movies etc.

Actually you do, he has five Sky boxes so obviously have multiroom and Sky are a lot more strict on this because you can easily just give your viewing card to someone else and get a €65 package for €15 - that's why you need to be connected to the phone line with multiroom - you could get away with it for maybe a few days but Sky WILL contact you about it.

Sam Vimes

Username! wrote: »

Actually you do, he has five Sky boxes so obviously have multiroom and Sky are a lot more strict on this because you can easily just give your viewing card to someone else and get a €65 package for €15 - that's why you need to be connected to the phone line with multiroom - you could get away with it for maybe a few days but Sky WILL contact you about it.

i've heard that but i have 4 sky boxes and i often don't have some of them plugged in and i've never got a call. i think they pick and choose who they call tbh

Username! wrote: »

Your practically right with that diagram except the Broadband should be filtered as well. Give it a go yourself if you think you can.

the broadband doesn't need to be filtered. on those double dsl adapters with a phone connection on one side and dsl on the other, the dsl connection is just straight through unfiltered

if you put a dsl filter on the dsl line, it won't work because, well, the dsl will be filtered out

Username!

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The broadband doesn't need to be filtered. on those double dsl adapters with a phone connection on one side and dsl on the other, the dsl connection is just straight through unfiltered

Yes it does, the filter is designed to seperate the two range of frequencies that the phone and Broadband work on (the phone being c. up to 4kHz and the Broadband at a much higher range of c. 25kHz).

Having the filter on the line gives the Broadband only it's dedicated signal so no interferance on the line will affect it, it's very necessary, trust me.

Sam Vimes

Username! wrote: »

Yes it does, the filter is designed to seperate the two range of frequencies that the phone and Broadband work on (the phone being c. up to 4kHz and the Broadband at a much higher range of c. 25kHz).

Having the filter on the line gives the Broadband only it's dedicated signal so no interferance on the line will affect it, it's very necessary, trust me.

i haven't had a dsl filter on my broadband line since 2004 when i found out it worked just fine without it.


the filter stops the 25kHz broadband signal interfering with the phones and as far as i'm concerned that's all that's necessary. my understanding is that a dsl filter is a low pass filter that blocks the high frequency dsl signal interfering with the phones so they only receive the low frequency voice signal

are you saying that those dsl double adapters have a different type of filter on the dsl side? if so what type of filter? or are you saying both sides have the same type of filter and it wouldn't matter which side you put the bb and the phone into?

edit: just to be clear on this, all my phones have dsl filters connected to them but the line from the modem goes straight into the wall. in fact my house goes wall->one of the sockets of a double adapter (not a dsl double adapter). the plug of the double adapter goes into the modem and then a cable comes out of the other socket of the double adapter and into a dsl filter, and the line continues on to two sky boxes. the phones are connected to different lines and filtered. and it all works fine

rmacm

The DSL filters you get are indeed low pass analog filters. Newer Eircom master sockets have two sockets on them one for your phone and one for DSL and I believe the master socket already does the filtering so you can plug in your phone without needing an extra filter.

Sam Vimes

rmacm wrote: »

The DSL filters you get are indeed low pass analog filters. Newer Eircom master sockets have two sockets on them one for your phone and one for DSL and I believe the master socket already does the filtering so you can plug in your phone without needing an extra filter.

right and the dsl side of those doesn't have a filter built into it does it?

rmacm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

right and the dsl side of those doesn't have a filter built into it does it?

From what I remember it doesn't, the phone socket should have a low pass filter on it so everything except the ~0-4000Hz for voice gets filtered out. The DSL side then can be unfiltered and if my thinking is correct if you plug a low pass filter in between your modem and the DSL socket then you will filter out the DSL signal which is obviously going to be **** all use then.

Where's FusionNet when you need him :P

I'm more familiar with the exchange end of things as that's what I work with. Not like you dirty SI crew Vimes

Jonathan

Username! wrote: »

Yes it does, the filter is designed to seperate the two range of frequencies that the phone and Broadband work on (the phone being c. up to 4kHz and the Broadband at a much higher range of c. 25kHz).

Having the filter on the line gives the Broadband only it's dedicated signal so no interferance on the line will affect it, it's very necessary, trust me.

Are you 100% sure about this?

I dont have my modem filtered but the rest of the phones in the house are.

I have never had problems.

Fuzzy Clam

Username! wrote: »

Yes it does, the filter is designed to seperate the two range of frequencies that the phone and Broadband work on (the phone being c. up to 4kHz and the Broadband at a much higher range of c. 25kHz).

Having the filter on the line gives the Broadband only it's dedicated signal so no interferance on the line will affect it, it's very necessary, trust me.

Its not 25Khz. thats only just above audible frequencies. There's no need for a filter on the dsl line. this will filter out the dsl, won't it?

DaSilva

0 - 4 kilohertz (KHz)
Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS)

26 - 138 kilohertz (KHz)
Upstream data transmission

138 KHz to 1.1 megahertz (MHz)
Downstream data transmission

I'm not familiar with how ADSL lines work, so just going off the numbers above which I found on some site. You will probably need a lowpass filter for telephones as those higher frequencies will add a ton of noise to calls. And almost certainly a highpass filter will be needed for the DSL line to remove the lower telephone frequencies. What might be happening though is your standard DSL modem might have a filter built in.

rmacm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Its not 25Khz. thats only just above audible frequencies. There's no need for a filter on the dsl line. this will filter out the dsl, won't it?

Voice can be carried with sufficient quality over a frequency range of 0 -> 4000Hz or 4KHz. The low pass filters that you get with a broadband modem allow the 0 -> 4KHz signals through and filter out stuff above that. Broadband uses frequencies above 4KHz up to about 25,000KHz. So if you throw a filter on the DSL side of an Eircom master socket you'll end up filtering out the DSL signal.

Sam Vimes

25khz sounded wrong to me tbh because a lot of people can hear that frequency. Regardless, a filter isn't needed for the bb line

dsl modems are designed to work on lines that also have phones connected and if any filters are needed (which would be high pass filters and not standard dsl filters) they'd be built into the modem. Phones on the other hand existed long before dsl and aren't designed to work on the same line as dsl modems, so they need a filter to get rid of the modem noise but the modem doesn't need a filter because it's already designed to account for it, if it has to at all

Op, your diagram just before Username! Posted about needing a filter on the dsl will work fine, assuming you're right about the output from the first socket going into the back of the second one

rmacm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

25khz sounded wrong to me tbh because a lot of people can hear that frequency. Regardless, a filter isn't needed for the bb line

Nah 25Khz is correct, humans can hear in the range of between 20Hz and 20kHz but for a phone call all you need is up to 4kHz which is enough to provide reasonable quality sound. The rest of the bandwidth on a copper pair can be used for DSL so when your line gets to the exchange it's connected to a DSLAM for data traffic or an MSAN but I don't think there are many operators using MSANs in Ireland at the moment (well at least none that Ericsson have sold equipment to recently that I know of).

Random

Thanks for your thoughts on this lads. Will give you a shout if I need anything else. Just fiddling with some cables etc today and gonna see how it turns out.

Random

Here's the beauty as it stands right now

Jonathan

lol



I'd hate to see the 4 gang adapters for the christmas lights in your house..

Random

No triple adapters in the shops that I could find today .. gonna order some online I reckon.

There's 5 Sky boxes and a phone running through the filter!!

Now my DSL doesn't work though .. it worked earlier .. and it works when I plug that mess out .. crap .. back to a process of elimination

Jonathan

5 sky boxes????

Random

jmccrohan wrote: »

5 sky boxes????

Yah 5. If I have to walk from the back garden upstairs to my bedroom I wanna be able to continue to watch my TV shows the whole way up! Can't be missing things just because the dog needed a p!ss now !

Fuzzy Clam

Random wrote: »

Now my DSL doesn't work though .. it worked earlier .. and it works when I plug that mess out .. crap .. back to a process of elimination

That looks like a bog standard filter without a splitter. If the modem is connected thru that, then it won't work.

Random

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

That looks like a bog standard filter without a splitter. If the modem is connected thru that, then it won't work.

In the photo you see a cable coming out of the top of the "box". This is the DSL line unfiltered. Everything else is running through that filter going into the socket in the box.

Random

Random wrote: »

In the photo you see a cable coming out of the top of the "box". This is the DSL line unfiltered. Everything else is running through that filter going into the socket in the box.

This might explain it better. Hope the coulor coding is clear. The red is DSL. It's hard wired into the box.



The internet works with just 1 or 2 things plugged into the filter but not with the other stuff.

Fuzzy Clam

Random wrote: »

In the photo you see a cable coming out of the top of the "box". This is the DSL line unfiltered. Everything else is running through that filter going into the socket in the box.

Ok. I thought that was the 'phone line into the box. If the modem was plugged after the filter, that would have explained the problem.

Random

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Ok. I thought that was the 'phone line into the box.

Nah, that's buried in the wall behind the box.

Random

Well I setup my new office down at the front door ...



And things worked. So after lots of messing about I decided to try another filter (the 5th one I've tried).

Everythings now working. I hate such things.

What I don't understand though ...
- How could the filter be affecting the DSL?
- How could the filter only be faulty when there was a couple of connections plugged in but not when there was 2?

I thought the filter was supposed to be to protect the phone from DSL interference and not vice-versa? Or so a few people have told me recently.

Any thoughts?

Sam Vimes

it's possible that the fact that the filter was faulty was affecting the dsl signal

Solair

The REN value on a phone line just means the number of old-fashioned bell-ringers that it could power.

The amount of power the line has depends on a few factors, including how far you are from the exchange and what type of exchange it is and how the ring voltage is applied to the line.

If you've overloaded the line, it will just stop ringing or ring very weirdly e.g. some phones might ring and others might not.

I would suggest just plugging everything in and see if it works. Most eircom lines are not short of juice!