"Human trafficking" - the new angle to attack prostitution?

AARRRGH

As I expected, it turns out Ruhama are the people behind the new "human trafficking" stories you now constantly see in the newspaper.

I'm yet to see one actual conviction for trafficking women for the purpose of prostitution in Ireland. Yet if you read the newspapers and watch the news (like the latest RTE headline) you'd believe we have a big problem in Ireland.

Is anyone else sick of extremist organisations like Ruhama manipulating the media to force their agenda onto the people of Ireland?

(If you don't know who Ruhama are, they are a right wing Catholic organisation who constantly invent stories about human trafficking and prostitution. Their stories are printed as fact in newspapers. They are so extreme, they believe a man is sexually assaulting a woman if he pays for a lap dance.)

aidan_walsh

A lack of convictions pretty much just means they don't have enough to convict someone, if they even have someone to stick a conviction to.

jill_valentine

Blimey, I'd like to know more about this Ruhama crowd. Link?

AARRRGH

aidan_walsh wrote: »

A lack of convictions pretty much just means they don't have enough to convict someone, if they even have someone to stick a conviction to.

Ah will you stop. They can convict people if they have evidence. Using your logic I could say we have a huge Al Qaeda problem in Ireland, but we just don't have enough evidence to convict them. (You can replace Al Qaeda with whatever you want.)

I happen to know a lot of the players in the Irish prostitution industry (I've interviewed a lot of them/maintain contact with some of them) and I assure you they are making so much money and there are so many women who want to be prostitutes that there is no need whatsoever to kidnap women and force them to be prostitutes.

AARRRGH

jill_valentine wrote: »

Blimey, I'd like to know more about this Ruhama crowd. Link?

You'll get them at ruhama.ie. The sex writer Anne Sexton has investigated them for years and is of the opinion they are (to put it politely) very dishonest.

Basically they are an extremist organistion who use their money and slick PR machine to force their agenda onto us. They are run by a bunch of nuns. :rolleyes:

The human trafficking adverts you see at luas stops, etc. They're by Ruhama.

They organised a conference a while back and only invited extremists with opinions similar to Dvorkian/McKinnon feminism. In other words, if a woman shows off her naked shoulders, she's being sexually assaulted.

Nuts. And so annoying because they have so much influence over Irish media and the Irish public.

Oh, another thing about Ruhama, they won't take on any outsiders (e.g. volunteers.) I wonder why?

Permabear

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AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes

donegalfella wrote: »

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They think women are unable to choose to work within the sex industry. For example, every lap dancer is being forced to work as lap dancers.

They are an anti-feminist organisation, who think women are not capable of making up their own mind on whether or not they want to dance/have sex for money.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Nearly every single story about sex trafficking or depressed prostitutes you read in the media is a press release by Ruhama. You can tell because every article ends by talking about Ruhama and the great work they do.

For example, search for "Ruhama" on independent.ie.

Some of the reasons I know the stories are false are:

1. The Gardai say we do not have a trafficking or forced prostitution problem in Ireland.
2. I know a lot of prostitutes/pimps and they have all told me they have never heard of a single girl being forced to have sex against her will.
3. What happens to all the girls Ruhama "save"? Surely *someone* at some stage should have been convicted for forcing them to have sex?
4. Women are able of choosing what work they do. This includes prostitution, accounting or farming. They are not forced. I find it highly sad (as a feminist) that they think women are not capable of choosing their life.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I know. They are extremely well organised.

It would take a very brave civil servant to reject an application for funding from a "save the prostitutes" organisation.

I should also point out there are still a lot of very powerful people in Ireland who have strong Catholic views. Another example (which I am currently battling) is the IEDR's opinion that words like "pornography" are offensive and need to be banned.

Other countries have the exact same problem. For example, in the US they try to give every anti-porn bill a "save the children" title as that makes it impossible for politicians to vote against them.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know. They do not accept volunteers. Try to volunteer with them, they won't accept you. It's just a front to make them look honest and open.

I know all this sounds like something which belongs in the conspiracy theory forum, but they really are a bunch of warped extremists. I find it frightening how much power they have.

AARRRGH

Another thing Ruhama (and their sister organistions in Ireland) try to do is pretend illegal immigrants who work as prostitutes are in fact "trafficked" and working here as sex slaves. In other words, they are trying to imply they are tricked or kidnapped and forced to work as sex slaves in Ireland.

If you actually examine proper articles about "trafficking" you will see they are in fact illegal immigrants living in Ireland who work as prostitutes. They came to Ireland to do this, and continue working as prostitutes by choice. They was no tricking or kidnapping.

Recent articles by lazy journalists would have you believe the women are not here and not working as prostitutes by choice.

Bottle_of_Smoke

They say that Roma girl was murdered for refusing to work as a prostitute. Do you know anything about the basis of that quote?

chops1990

I'm sure there is a lot of human trafficing going on. But some of these people go looking for help from gangsters to leave their country. What were they expecting tbh. To be given rights from gangsters? If you ask a gangster for a favour, he'll want you to do him a much bigger one in return.

Hellm0

Always suspected there was some spin on this, human trafficking may be happening on some scale but to use it as a weapon against all forms of prostitution is nonsense. Some make a decent living!

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

2. I know a lot of prostitutes/pimps and they have all told me they have never heard of a single girl being forced to have sex against her will.

Are you serious? "My friend said so" is enough for you to be levelling all these accusations?

Obviously I'm aware there's a lot more to your post but including this as backing just seems absurd.

Bluefoam

Sounds like the OP is very into prositutes...

AARRRGH

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They say that Roma girl was murdered for refusing to work as a prostitute. Do you know anything about the basis of that quote?

Who is supposed to be saying that? What evidence are they basing it on?

chops1990 wrote: »

I'm sure there is a lot of human trafficing going on. But some of these people go looking for help from gangsters to leave their country. What were they expecting tbh. To be given rights from gangsters? If you ask a gangster for a favour, he'll want you to do him a much bigger one in return.

There is human trafficking in the sense that the girls come here as illegal immigrants and work as prostitutes. The difference is they do this by choice. Ruhama/the media make out they are kidnapped, shipped to Ireland, and forced to work in some locked room.

A major issue which keeps coming back again and again is so many people cannot comprehend some people might want to work as prostitutes. They think "I wouldn't work as a prostitute" so assume everyone thinks like that. The reality is everyone is different.

Hellm0 wrote: »

Always suspected there was some spin on this, human trafficking may be happening on some scale but to use it as a weapon against all forms of prostitution is nonsense. Some make a decent living!

Most make a decent living! The girls I know make thousands per week.

bluewolf wrote: »

Are you serious? "My friend said so" is enough for you to be levelling all these accusations?

Obviously I'm aware there's a lot more to your post but including this as backing just seems absurd.

I know I am using anecdotal evidence, but the prostitution community in Ireland is small and a lot of the people involved know each other, or at least know what's going on.

Sure even the Gardai say there isn't a problem. Only Ruhama say there's a problem.

One thing to note: I've read a lot of articles by other organisations in Ireland (such as the Immigrant Council) who have said there is a big trafficking (as in, kidnapping) problem in Ireland. I've asked them where they get their information from... Ruhama of course.

It always leads back to Ruhama. I swear, it's nuts.

Note although I have an interest in the subject of prostitution, my problem with Ruhama is their blatant dishonesty. I have nothing to gain or whatever by complaining about them.

AARRRGH

Bluefoam wrote: »

Sounds like the OP is very into prositutes...

I've never had sex with a prostitute. It's a long story how I got involved in the industry (summary: I used to run a couple of large porn sites, some with original content, and a few other bits and pieces) so in general it's sort of a professional interest.

The idea of having sex with a prostitute (or getting a lap dance) does nothing for me.

LadyJ

chops1990 wrote: »

If you ask a gangster for a favour, he'll want you to do him a much bigger one in return.

Spoken like a dedicated Sopranos fan.

I know fcuk all about this subject but if what the OP is saying is true then I don't find it at all surprising to hear that a bunch of Catholic extremists are trying to create hysteria about something like this and if they are the source of everyone's information then that is seriously suspicious.

chops1990

This is one interesting subject!!!! And I'm not being sarcastic!

Bottle_of_Smoke

AARRRGH wrote: »

Who is supposed to be saying that? What evidence are they basing it on?

I don't know. I was asking because it seemed a bit suspicious and I thought you might have heard/read into it.

AARRRGH

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't know. I was asking because it seemed a bit suspicious and I thought you might have heard/read into it.

They don't even know if she's dead or not...!

irish_bob

i know almost nothing about ruhamma other than what i hear occasionally on the news but how does trying to prevent women from becoming prostitutes or trying to help those who are already on the game , make ruhamma extremists

to use the word extremist to describle a group like ruhamma is an insult to those who died in india at the hands of real extremists

AARRRGH

irish_bob wrote: »

i know almost nothing about ruhamma other than what i hear occasionally on the news but how does trying to prevent women from becoming prostitutes or trying to help those who are already on the game , make ruhamma extremists

to use the word extremist to describle a group like ruhamma is an insult to those who died in india at the hands of real extremists

Firstly, why do women need to be prevented from becoming prostitutes? What's wrong with having sex with people? Who are we to say what a grown woman chooses to do with her life?

The problem I have with Ruhama is that their views and actions are extreme. If you read my previous posts, you'll see they think men are sexually assaulting women if they get a lap dance, they think women are incapable of choosing to work in the sex industry (they are being tricked into doing it by men), and they make up stories and get them published in newspapers as facts.

This is all coming from their religious background - Ruhama is run by a bunch of nuns and priests. Surprise, surprise they have a warped view of sex!

LadyJ

AARRRGH wrote: »

Firstly, why do women need to be prevented from becoming prostitutes? What's wrong with having sex with people? Who are we to say what a grown woman chooses to do with her life?

This is a really naive attitude to prostitution.

I agree that a woman should be able to choose what to do with her life but I certainly wouldn't encourage someone to become a prostitute. It's not even about the having sex with people part, it's more about the dangerous situations you could get into. Prostitutes surely run a bigger risk of getting attacked or chopped into pieces.

I think if you have the chance to prevent someone from deciding to do this with their life then good stuff.

I'm no fan of crazy religiuos loons making sh!t up, all I'm saying is that if I knew someone who was a prostitute I'd certainly try to encourage her to get out of it.

AARRRGH

No one thinks being a prostitute is a nice job, however it is no one's business what a woman chooses to do with her life. Just because you wouldn't like to be a prostitute doesn't mean you should be entitled to enfore your views onto other women, i.e. encouraging prostitutes to quit their job.

The excuse that it is a dangerous job and they need to be helped is a cop out. Why do people only feel this way about prostitutes? Why don't you feel like talking Gardai, builders, soldiers, bouncers, etc. out of their job? All of these jobs are a lot more dangerous than being a prostitute.

Of course, I agree it makes sense to (fully) legalise prostitution and provide some sort of regulation to make it safer.

LadyJ

I realise that all jobs have their hazards but I really think that prostitution leads down a far more dangerous road than working as a garda or a builder. It can lead to drug abuse, probably more so than any other job and from watching any documentaries about prostitution in general, it seems like it ruins lives.

I'm sure there are plenty of women who do it and haven't had huge problems caused by it yet but I'd imagine that they will somewhere down the line.

I'm training to be a social care worker and already I have heard some horror stories about prostitution. Many women who do it aren't doing it because they really, really want to but generally because they feel they have no choice and no way of making enough money to support their kids/drug habit without it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons people get into it and I'm not talking about saving people, I'm talking about helping people sort themselves out without having to rely on selling their bodies.

AARRRGH

LadyJ wrote: »

I realise that all jobs have their hazards but I really think that prostitution leads down a far more dangerous road than working as a garda or a builder. It can lead to drug abuse, probably more so than any other job and from watching any documentaries about prostitution in general, it seems like it ruins lives.

I'm sure there are plenty of women who do it and haven't had huge problems caused by it yet but I'd imagine that they will somewhere down the line.

I agree with you prostitution isn't a nice job. I agree with you that it potentially presents a lot more issues for the person than say, a job in a office or something like that.

However, we should stick to the facts about prostitution rather than our opinions (which no doubt are warped somewhat by Ireland's Catholic background.)

The fact of the matter is most drug addicts (who are prostitutes) became prostitutes so they could pay for their habit; it wasn't prostitution which turned them to drugs.

We should also seperate "street prostitute" from "brothel prostitute" and "escort".

Street prostitutes are the most vulnerable and I would agree with there being some sort of outreach programme for these women, as a lot of them may have a drug problem. But the emphasis should be on helping them kick drugs, not helping them give up sex with strangers. The reason I say this is because I don't think sex is wrong.

Brothel prostitutes and escorts generally make a lot more money and operate in some sort of safe environment.

LadyJ wrote: »

I'm training to be a social care worker and already I have heard some horror stories about prostitution. Many women who do it aren't doing it because they really, really want to but generally because they feel they have no choice and no way of making enough money to support their kids/drug habit without it.

Sure, I agree with you. It's still a choice though. They have chosen to do a job which pays extremely well. They may not particularly like it, but they are still choosing to do it. Just like I choose to do my job because I need money.

LadyJ wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons people get into it and I'm not talking about saving people, I'm talking about helping people sort themselves out without having to rely on selling their bodies.

I'm with you on helping people who have a drug problem, but this has nothing to do with prostitution. They just happen to be prostitutes. I would offer the same assistance to any drug addict.

...

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

Most make a decent living! The girls I know make thousands per week.

Doesn't mean that human trafficking doesn't happen. Anecdotal evidence is not considered reliable for good reason. Just because some women want to be prostitutes doesn't mean they all do and the reasons for which they "want" to be prostitutes can be many and varied.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Sure even the Gardai say there isn't a problem. Only Ruhama say there's a problem.

Sorry the Gardai do think there's a problem. Oh and the UN and Amnesty International...and the Irish Refugee Council. For all your efforts to convince everyone on Boards that there is zero human trafficking in Ireland and Ruhama is evil and dishonest, you have never provided any concrete evidence to support your claims apart from "my friends..blah blah".

Humans are the second biggest illegal trade in the world, after guns. To think that Ireland is some magical oasis where it doesn't happen is risible.

Lack of prosecution is more a reflection on our weak anti-human trafficking laws than anything else.

waves

Would you advise your sister, mother or daughter to become a prostitute if they were short on cash?

Do you think that there might be some people who are into teens and that there might be an underground network of teen ex workers who are virtually enslaved by their pimps? It happens in most other countries - how come you think that there is absolutely no trafficing here?

And come on, as a career choice, regardless of the money, it's not a great one is it? Strange men sticking their possibly sti riddled cock inside you and groping your tits for an hour isn't quite as appealing as sitting at a desk totting up some figures.

I have read their site and they seem to do some good work for street walkers.

And if it happens to be run by nuns who care for the welfare of other women then that seems like a good thing to me. I have no great love of any religion but if they help people out in a practical way then good.

And also, if it brings trafficking to the attention of Johns, then they might just be a bit more wary of who they purchase for an hour - in fact, they might even report it to the Gardai if they think a girl has been trafficked.

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

Doesn't mean that human trafficking doesn't happen. Anecdotal evidence is not considered reliable for good reason. Just because some women want to be prostitutes doesn't mean they all do and the reasons for which they "want" to be prostitutes can be many and varied.

Hang on, you've misinterpreted what I said.

I agree there is such a thing as "human trafficking" in the sense that people come to work in a country illegally, for example, the way some Chinese people were moving to England by hiding in metal crates.

My problem is that the media/Ruhama are trying to suggest women are being kidnapped, shipped to Ireland, and forced to work as prostitutes. This is simply not true. Yes, there might be a lot of illegal immigrants working here as prostitutes, but they are doing that by choice. Of course, if they were rich they wouldn't do it (just like you and I probably wouldn't do our current job) but the fact of the matter is it's a choice.

I know lots of prostitutes don't want to be prostitutes, but they CHOOSE to continue doing it. They could quit and work as a cleaner or in a kitchen, but they don't.

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry the Gardai do think there's a problem. Oh and the UN and Amnesty International...and the Irish Refugee Council. For all your efforts to convince everyone on Boards that there is zero human trafficking in Ireland and Ruhama is evil and dishonest, you have never provided any concrete evidence to support your claims apart from "my friends..blah blah".

You are not reading my posts.

I never said there is no "human trafficking". I am saying there is no human trafficking in the sense of women being kidnapped, shipping to Ireland, and forced to work as prostitutes. There is a HUGE difference.

Can you see the difference?

The problem is Ruhama are trying to say the two are the same.

I think you've misunderstood what this topic is about.

waves wrote: »

Would you advise your sister, mother or daughter to become a prostitute if they were short on cash?

Of course not. :rolleyes:

waves wrote: »

Do you think that there might be some people who are into teens and that there might be an underground network of teen ex workers who are virtually enslaved by their pimps? It happens in most other countries - how come you think that there is absolutely no trafficing here?

Because the Gardai say so. Unless you can prove there are women being forced (against their will) to work as prostitutes, you are only basing your opinion on what movies/etc. would like you to believe.

waves wrote: »

And come on, as a career choice, regardless of the money, it's not a great one is it? Strange men sticking their possibly sti riddled cock inside you and groping your tits for an hour isn't quite as appealing as sitting at a desk totting up some figures.

I don't think it is a nice job. Please, read my posts before making assumptions.

waves wrote: »

I have read their site and they seem to do some good work for street walkers. And if it happens to be run by nuns who care for the welfare of other women then that seems like a good thing to me. I have no great love of any religion but if they help people out in a practical way then good.

You're missing the point. They are lying to force their agenda on people. An organisation who would steep to that kind of nonsense are not motivated by helping people, but rather their extremist views.

waves wrote: »

And also, if it brings trafficking to the attention of Johns, then they might just be a bit more wary of who they purchase for an hour - in fact, they might even report it to the Gardai if they think a girl has been trafficked.

There is no proof any prostitutes in Ireland have been "trafficked" into Ireland and are being forced to have sex. I know you want to believe there must be loads of women chained to walls, but that is Hollywood, not reality.

I accept (obviously) at some stage in the future there might be a case where some sick ****er forces a girl to have sex, but until that happens, we should be honest about prostitution. Lying to ourselves because we have issues with sex is not how you make progress.

Bottle_of_Smoke

taconnol wrote: »

Humans are the second biggest illegal trade in the world, after guns. To think that Ireland is some magical oasis where it doesn't happen is risible.

Lack of prosecution is more a reflection on our weak anti-human trafficking laws than anything else.

Where'd you get that info from? Drugs are most certainly the biggest illegal trade. When's the last time you heard of 1billions worth of mexican hookers being found off the coast of cork?

I think AARRGHH is making sense here, it's just difficult to look at such a taboo topic logically.

Women don't get into drugs from prostitution, they become prostitutes because of drugs.

It's a horrible job but women aren't stupid, they know it's a horrible job. I really don't think there's any women out there thinking "I'd love to be a prostitute, if only it were legal"

At present we have a situation where prostitution is technically legal due to being able to advertise on a non-Irish website, yet the state doesn't benefit in any way!

Either close this loophole or have it fully legalised, set up brothels. Have mandatory health warnings at the door like on cigarette boxes explaining it's completely impossible to ensure a girl is clean when she has daily multiple partners. Give statistics on likelihood of catching which STDs.

I've never heard a reliable story about forced prostitution in Ireland but I have in the UK so I wouldn't rule it out. We have plenty of criminal gangs so it really wouldn't surprise me.

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree there is such a thing as "human trafficking" in the sense that people come to work in a country illegally, for example, the way some Chinese people were moving to England by hiding in metal crates.

My problem is that the media/Ruhama are trying to suggest women are being kidnapped, shipped to Ireland, and forced to work as prostitutes. This is simply not true. Yes, there might be a lot of illegal immigrants working here as prostitutes, but they are doing that by choice. Of course, if they were rich they wouldn't do it (just like you and I probably wouldn't do our current job) but the fact of the matter is it's a choice.

I know lots of prostitutes don't want to be prostitutes, but they CHOOSE to continue doing it. They could quit and work as a cleaner or in a kitchen, but they don't.

I have not misunderstood your posts. You're saying that no woman in Ireland is ftrafficked into Ireland and then forced into prostitution which is utter nonsense.

You really think that an illegal woman here can just easily quit being a prostitute and take up a proper legal job? You really think that?

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are not reading my posts.

I never said there is no "human trafficking". I am saying there is no human trafficking in the sense of women being kidnapped, shipping to Ireland, and forced to work as prostitutes. There is a HUGE difference.

Can you see the difference?

The problem is Ruhama are trying to say the two are the same.

I think you've misunderstood what this topic is about.

No I haven't misunderstood anything. You have yet to provide any evidence that Ruhama is lying and that they have some crazy "agenda".

Overheal

Roxane,

You dont have to wear
that dress tonight
those days are over
you dont have to sell
your body to the night ♪

"You really think that an illegal woman here can just easily quit being a prostitute and take up a proper legal job? You really think that?"

You mean an illegal alien woman right? Then no, probably not. But they arent optionless. Either become a refugee, or they can be deported back to their own country where they can find work. They arent shiny options, but they are options.

At the same time my look at Ruhama didnt show up anything strange. You cant really disprove women are/arent being trafficked to Ireland against their will. Where is Ruhama trying to say the two are the same by the way. Arg, your whole argument relies on 0.00% of the prostitute population of ireland being non-coerced. Thats a really weak stance to take, imo.

And to Bottle of Smoke: it isnt just drugs that get women into prostitution. Some of them get into escort services to finance college expenses.

Macha

Overheal wrote: »

You mean an illegal alien woman right? Then no, probably not. But they arent optionless. Either become a refugee, or they can be deported back to their own country where they can find work. They arent shiny options, but they are options.

You're ignoring the legal status of these women in Ireland. More often than not they are treated as criminals and thrown in jail. They are far from their families, possibly don't speak English very well, can be subject to threats and violence (both towards them and their family back home), have had their passport taken away, don't know the lie of the land, could be depressed...etc etc.

It's very easy to sit at a computer and type that they have options but the reality for people (as I'm assuming men and women are both in this situation) is not so simple.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Overheal wrote: »

And to Bottle of Smoke: it isnt just drugs that get women into prostitution. Some of them get into escort services to finance college expenses.

Relax there, I was referring about the ones who are on drugs as that's what was previously mentioned.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are not reading my posts.

I never said there is no "human trafficking". I am saying there is no human trafficking in the sense of women being kidnapped, shipping to Ireland, and forced to work as prostitutes. There is a HUGE difference.

Can you see the difference?

How could you possibly know that? :rolleyes:

Are you saying you have never seen a prostitute working under duress (would you know if you had) so therefore it doesn't happen?

Sex trafficking is very difficult to get statistics on (for obvious reasons) so it is quite difficult to gauge if Ireland has a big problem or not. But knowing friends who are social workers I can assure you that it has happened that a women has been kidnapped, shipped to Ireland and forced to work as a prostitute on more than one occasion.

I would also point out that from what I've seen Ruhama, what ever one thinks about them as an organisation, are merely responding to research carried out in the universities, such as Galway. They aren't inventing a problem.

Bluefoam

I still think that OP is way too involved in business, either as a customer or otherwise. Why is he so protective of the people running prostitution?

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

I have not misunderstood your posts. You're saying that no woman in Ireland is ftrafficked into Ireland and then forced into prostitution which is utter nonsense.

If it is utter nonsense, please back up your startment with some kind of evidence.

There is a huge difference between what you see in movies and what happens in Ireland.

Seriously, find me a single women who was kidnapped, brought to Ireland and then forced to work as a prostitute. Or a single prosecution for a person doing the forcing.

It doesn't exist in Ireland. It may someday, but it doesn't now.

taconnol wrote: »

You really think that an illegal woman here can just easily quit being a prostitute and take up a proper legal job? You really think that?

You are confusing the problem of being an illegal immigrant with the problem of being a prostitute. Seriously, you are not seperating the issues.

Illegal immigrants cannot work in a "proper" job. So they work as cleaners, or kitchen staff, or another poorly paid job. Some of them decide "I can make so much more money working as a prostitute" so they do this. Yes at some stage they might think "It would be nicer if I could work in a proper job like an Accountant or something" but the reality is because they are an illegal immigrant they can't be an Accountant so they choose to stick with the high earning sex-for-money job. They could return to working as a cleaner, but they choose not to do so, because the money is ****.

As you can see, this is all a choice. Yes, they have very limited choices, but that is because they are an illegal immigrant. Blaming prostitution is intellectually lazy.

taconnol wrote: »

No I haven't misunderstood anything. You have yet to provide any evidence that Ruhama is lying and that they have some crazy "agenda".

OK. Here's a simple example.

Ruhama: So many women in Ireland are being forced to work as prostitutes, it's terrible, we are saving them, blah blah blah.

Head of the Gardai anti-prostitution unit:

Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest at Store St Station, says that there is no evidence that any of the girls are being forced into prostitution, none is underage and most pocket 50 per cent of their earnings.

He says the oldest profession in the world is experiencing similar benefits of our booming economy as other industries and Dublin is now a highly sought after place to work. And he believes that politicians should considering legalising prostitution in a bid to monitor it properly and offer more protection to girls.

We have carried out an in-depth investigation into organised prostitution over the past 18 months and we have found no evidence of exploitation or trafficking. There are no gangs involved and there is little violence.

"The youngest girls appear to be 19 and most are in their 20s and early 30s. We have found no evidence of underage girls working - the pimps don't want to bring that kind of attention on themselves. The girls are working because they want to make money and Dublin is somewhere that they can earn a lot of money," Detective Superintendent McKeown said.

"I was very surprised when we started this investigation to find that a lot of the old myths regarding prostitution have gone out the window. It is a service that is in demand and there is a lot of money about nowadays. To put it simply, there is room for everyone and plenty of work. The pimps know one another and work side by side. They don't want trouble and there are rarely disputes."

Operation Quest have also investigated a number of lap dancing clubs but say they have found no breaches of the law within that industry and no exploitation.

"Again the girls are here willingly and it is their choice to work in the business: they are earning a lot of money. They seem to be very happy doing what they are doing. They are not breaking any criminal laws. Obviously prostitution is morally wrong but there are no laws being broken because the girls aren't soliciting sex on the streets," said McKeown.

He believes that Ireland should consider making prostitution legal and monitoring it properly.

"We do not go after the girls - we wouldn't even consider doing that. It is the organisers that we are interested in," he said. "But the fact is that prostitution is here to stay and perhaps it is time that our legislators started to consider making it legal and getting a proper handle on it. Of course that would mean that taxes would have to be paid and maybe Dublin wouldn't be as lucrative a place to work."

@ Wicknight, Overheal, Taconnol: the Gardai are wrong, are they? You can choose to believe the nuns (the Catholic church have a really good track record when it comes to having a positive opinion on sex, don't they?) or you can believe the professionals.

I'm guessing people don't have a problem with the concept of earning money, so it must be the sex part of prostitution which people find so offensive. Surprise surprise, Irish people think sex is dirty!

AARRRGH

Bluefoam wrote: »

I still think that OP is way too involved in business, either as a customer or otherwise. Why is he so protective of the people running prostitution?

Because I dislike dishonestly.

There are many misinformation compaigns going on in the world. Another one is the campaign against steroids.

The problem is most people are either too busy to care or incapable of reading between the bull****.

towel401

why did these extremist catholics decide to name their organisation after Saparmurat Niyazov's little pink book?

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

If it is utter nonsense, please back up your startment with some kind of evidence.

There is a huge difference between what you see in movies and what happens in Ireland.

Seriously, find me a single women who was kidnapped, brought to Ireland and then forced to work as a prostitute. Or a single prosecution for a person doing the forcing.

It doesn't exist in Ireland. It may someday, but it doesn't now.

Ugh, please stop being a hypocrite and practice what you preach!! You're using circular logic and it doesn't fool anyone.

Here is proof of human trafficked prostitutes in Ireland:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5298861.ece

Read the last paragraph. What about the 17 year old girl in the news earlier this year. You really think a 17-year old girl is capable of making the decision to enter the prostitution business?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/northern_ireland_politics/7763031.stm

The PSNI said it believed "it has identified at least eight women who were trafficked into Ireland (north and south) and then forced into prostitution".
Police said seven of these victims had been rescued from brothels and that the women were vulnerable and had been "trafficked mostly from non-EU countries".

Hmmm, that quote looks suspiciously like the PSNI believe that some women have been trafficked into Ireland and then forced into prostitution...

As I and others have stated, the lack of convictions is a symptom of bad and lacking legislation, nothing more. You really, really think that trafficked prostitutes exist in the UK and all over Europe, just not Ireland??

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are confusing the problem of being an illegal immigrant with the problem of being a prostitute. Seriously, you are not seperating the issues.

Illegal immigrants cannot work in a "proper" job. So they work as cleaners, or kitchen staff, or another poorly paid job. Some of them decide "I can make so much more money working as a prostitute" so they do this. Yes at some stage they might think "It would be nicer if I could work in a proper job like an Accountant or something" but the reality is because they are an illegal immigrant they can't be an Accountant so they choose to stick with the high earning sex-for-money job. They could return to working as a cleaner, but they choose not to do so, because the money is ****.

As you can see, this is all a choice. Yes, they have very limited choices, but that is because they are an illegal immigrant. Blaming prostitution is intellectually lazy.

*Sigh* For the last time I'm not confusing the issues. Please stop saying that I am.

I'm aware that the above people exist. I am saying that trafficked prostitutes ALSO exist.

AARRRGH wrote: »

OK. Here's a simple example.

Ruhama: So many women in Ireland are being forced to work as prostitutes, it's terrible, we are saving them, blah blah blah.

As previously mentioned, circular logic.

AARRRGH wrote: »

@ Wicknight, Overheal, Taconnol: the Gardai are wrong, are they? You can choose to believe the nuns (the Catholic church have a really good track record when it comes to having a positive opinion on sex, don't they?) or you can believe the professionals.

Yes like the UN and Amnesty INtl...professionals that you conveniently choose to ignore.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm guessing people don't have a problem with the concept of earning money, so it must be the sex part of prostitution which people find so offensive. Surprise surprise, Irish people think sex is dirty!

Now you're saying that anyone who think that trafficked prostitutes exist in Ireland are frigid and have issues with sex?? Please.

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

Ugh, please stop being a hypocrite and practice what you preach!! You're using circular logic and it doesn't fool anyone.

Here is proof of human trafficked prostitutes in Ireland:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5298861.ece

Read the last paragraph. What about the 17 year old girl in the news earlier this year. You really think a 17-year old girl is capable of making the decision to enter the prostitution business?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/northern_ireland_politics/7763031.stm

Hmmm, that quote looks suspiciously like the PSNI believe that some women have been trafficked into Ireland and then forced into prostitution...

Yes, that does look well dodgy alright, but I'm going to wait until someone is convicted of kidnapping/sexual assault before I make judgement. As you know, what the police decide and what a jury decides are often two very different things.

If they are convicted of "organising prostitution" then we know there was no kidnapping/sexual assault.

So let's reserve judgement on this one until the trial is over. We can come back to it.

taconnol wrote: »

As I and others have stated, the lack of convictions is a symptom of bad and lacking legislation, nothing more. You really, really think that trafficked prostitutes exist in the UK and all over Europe, just not Ireland??

Come on, if a girl is kidnapped/forced to work as a prostitute, that's a pretty clear cut case. Using your logic I could say there is a huge X or Y problem in Ireland, "but it's hard to get convictions".

Until I see actual convictions, I am not going to base my opinion on my gut feeling. I don't understand why we can't just stick to the facts.

taconnol wrote: »

Now you're saying that anyone who think that trafficked prostitutes exist in Ireland are frigid and have issues with sex?? Please.

You have already told me (in previous threads) you have big issues with prostitution/pornography/using sex to sell products, and in general appear to be quite conservative when it comes to sexual issues. So I think your emotions are overriding your logic on this issue.

Will you at least accept (I'm trying to compromise with you now) that MOST women who are prostitutes choose to work as a prostitute? I will accept that there is a case going on at the moment, which you pointed out above, which *might* turn out to be kidnapping/forced prostitution.

PS I find it ridiculous that you dismissed my clear evidence that there isn't a kidnapping/forced prostitution problem in Ireland, i.e. the article from the Gardai. One of your problems is you desperately want to believe there is a problem because you have issues with sex for money.

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

You have already told me (in previous threads) you have big issues with prostitution/pornography/using sex to sell products, and in general appear to be quite conservative when it comes to sexual issues. So I think your emotions are overriding your logic on this issue.

Will you at least accept (I'm trying to compromise with you now) that MOST women who are prostitutes choose to work as a prostitute? I will accept that there is a case going on at the moment, which you pointed out above, which *might* turn out to be kidnapping/forced prostitution.

PS I find it ridiculous that you dismissed my clear evidence that there isn't a kidnapping/forced prostitution problem in Ireland, i.e. the article from the Gardai. One of your problems is you desperately want to believe there is a problem because you have issues with sex for money.

I suggest you drop the ad hominem attacks. They really are quite vulgar. Interesting that you say we should stick to the facts and then proceed to bring in irrelevant issues when it suits you. Yes I do have an issue with prostitution - why? Not because i have issues but because I'm a consequentalist.

In terms of someone wanting to desperately believe something, perhaps it would be best to look at your own position.

metrovelvet

taconnol wrote: »

You're ignoring the legal status of these women in Ireland. More often than not they are treated as criminals and thrown in jail. They are far from their families, possibly don't speak English very well, can be subject to threats and violence (both towards them and their family back home), have had their passport taken away, don't know the lie of the land, could be depressed...etc etc.
.

I have a quick question here. What is the Irish police's policy on arresting and jailing minors who are trafficked in prostitutes. I ask because I recently came across an article in a New York newspaper about the problem the NYPD have with this, as they arrest and imprison prostitutes [minors]who are US citizens but are not legally authorised to do so for the illegal immigrant minors so the illegally trafficked in minors who are caught out are taken in by social workers and found homes, etc.

Arghh... for years not a single priest was convicted of raping little boys. I guess back then you would have said it wasn't happenning.

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

I suggest you drop the ad hominem attacks. They really are quite vulgar. Interesting that you say we should stick to the facts and then proceed to bring in irrelevant issues when it suits you. Yes I do have an issue with prostitution - why? Not because i have issues but because I'm a consequentalist.

In terms of someone wanting to desperately believe something, perhaps it would be best to look at your own position.

If you read over your posts, you'll see you repeatedly introduce irrelvant information or opinions based on your emotions.

Like you, I also think prostitution is a disgusting job, but I am able to keep my emotions in check and stick to the reality of the situation, i.e. where is the proof women are being forced into prostitution. It is all too easy to say "they just are, ok?".

metrovelvet wrote:

Arghh... for years not a single priest was convicted of raping little boys. I guess back then you would have said it wasn't happenning.

You are comparing apples with oranges. The Catholic church made an effort to hide the priest's actions, and priests were seen as "good people" in our communities. No one is trying to hide the brothel keepers actions, and no on thinks they are good people.

The interview with the Gardai I posted earlier - do you think he is making that up? Do you honestly believe he would go out of his way to hide forced prostitution? Of course not.

Prostitution basically comes down to this:

A woman decides to become a prostitute. Maybe she is an illegal immigrant who is desperate, or maybe she has a drug problem. Whatever the reason, it most likely comes down to money. With prostitution you can make a lot of money very quickly. Note she has chosen to become a prostitute.

The woman has four options: street prostitute, brothel prostitute, escort or dominatrix. Street prostitute is the hardest, and dominatrix is the easiest. I would support an initiative to offer help to street prostitutes (if they want it) as what they are doing is illegal and the other three options (brothel prostitute, escort and dominatrix) offer a safer and better paid work environment. Also, it seems street prostitutes often are heroin addicts, so it makes sense to try to help them kick their habit.

Sex and wanting to have sex are healthy and normal, so prostitutes, and men who want to have sex with prostitutes, are not doing anything wrong. And it is none of our business what two consenting adults do with their time. As well as this, being a prostitute and having sex with a prostitute is legal (except when it is street prostitution.)

As posted in my interview with a Gardai above, brothels and the sex trade in Ireland is a "well run" business. There are few problems and prostitution in general is quite safe. Certainly the outroar against prostitution seems heavy handed considering how many other jobs and activities are way more dangerous (for example, driving, working on a building site, drinking alcohol, etc.) This of course makes me wonder why people are so anti-prostitution. My conclusion is that people are projecting their own fears onto prostitution, and of course, humanity has a history of demonising sex, especially women who have sex. Ever notice no one bats an eyelid about male prostitution?

I accept there might at some stage be some sick bastard who wants to get young girls for his brothel (although note a sick bastard could cause problems in any industry, but unregulated, underground industries are probably more vulnerable). He may simply find some vulnerable girls who "agree" to his idea, or he may resort to some sort of forced prostitution. This hasn't happened yet (no convictions - don't base your opinion on police or media speculation) so until then we should assume things are as the head of the Gardai's anti-prostitution describes, i.e. well run, safe, little problems. Note this is not his speculation, but rather after many months of research.

Of course, our current system of refusing to regulate the prostitution industry makes no sense. It is a large industry, it isn't going away, so it makes sense it is regulated. Certainly if you need a license to have a TV, you should need a license to run a brothel. So I would support our society being honest and open about prostitution, instead of hoping it goes away.

But this is all a bit off topic...

Ruhama = Liars
Ruhama = Catholic extremists

...don't trust them!

Nasty_Girl

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are comparing apples with oranges. The Catholic church made an effort to hide the priest's actions, and priests were seen as "good people" in our communities.No one is trying to hide the brothel keepers actions, and no on thinks they are good people.

The interview with the Gardai I posted earlier - do you think he is making that up? Do you honestly believe he would go out of his way to hide forced prostitution? Of course not.

Of course he could be making it up!! There's any number of reasons,
He could've been paid off,
He could enjoy banging prostitutes on a daily basis,
There's any number of reasons why.
You just said yourself, the Catholic Church "made an effort to hide the priest's actions" were seen as "good people" etc...

Is it so hard to believe a guard could be corrupt?
Now for the record, I don't think he is making it up ... I'm just saying that he COULD be and it's silly to say in one breath that well of course the Catholic Church covered things up and rubbish thoughts that a guard could do the same.

That doesn't make sense to me.
I don't care about prostitution ... if the girls are happy to do it, and guys are willing enough to pay for it I don't care.

But I find it interesting that in one post you say you say

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm guessing people don't have a problem with the concept of earning money, so it must be the sex part of prostitution which people find so offensive. Surprise surprise, Irish people think sex is dirty!

and then ...

AARRRGH wrote: »

Like you, I also think prostitution is disgusting

What's that about?
You're either ok with it or you're not ...

AARRRGH

Nasty_Girl wrote: »

Is it so hard to believe a guard could be corrupt?

I think it is reasonable to assume the head of the anti-prostitution unit isn't taking bribes or hiding something...

Of course, there is a chance he could be, but I think it is more likely the bunch of nuns and priests are the ones making up things about prostitution.

Nasty_Girl wrote: »

You're either ok with it or you're not ...

Just because I personally think the job of a prostitute is a disgusting job does not mean prostitution is wrong. I don't understand why so many people are unable to make that distinction.

Would I like to have sex with aul ones I'm not attracted to? Absolutely not, I would find it horrendous. But that's just me, and I would be a fool to think every prostitute has the same opinion as me.

So although I personally could not do their job, I do not think the prostitute is disgusting or think the prostitute thinks it is disgusting. My opinion is my own and does not reflect everyone's opinion.

Basically, forcing your own personal morals onto someone else is wrong.

Btw, I also think being a cleaner is a disgusting job, working in a meat factory is a disgusting job, etc. There are many jobs I would not do but I wouldn't hold that against anyone.

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you read over your posts, you'll see you repeatedly introduce irrelvant information or opinions based on your emotions.

Where? Please tell me where exactly I turn into this hysterical, emotional illogical female.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Like you, I also think prostitution is a disgusting job, but I am able to keep my emotions in check and stick to the reality of the situation, i.e. where is the proof women are being forced into prostitution. It is all too easy to say "they just are, ok?".

See above. See also advice to stop with the ad hominem attacks. It reduces your credibility.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ruhama = Liars
Ruhama = Catholic extremists

...don't trust them!

For someone who completely refuses to believe that there are trafficked prostitutes in Ireland unless he sticks his fingers in the wound, you're a little light on the ole proof yourself.
Still waiting for evidence on Ruhama!! And I won't be posting again until you post some up - it's a waste of time.

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

Still waiting for evidence on Ruhama!! And I won't be posting again until you post some up - it's a waste of time.

If you still won't accept I am talking any sense after this, you need to leave this thread. It is pretty clear to me you have already made your mind up on prostitution.

1. Ruhama admit they do not want to distinguish between "forced prostitution" and "free choice prostitution". I quote Ruhama: "Distinctions between forced and free are dangerous – they can be used to make some forms of prostitution more acceptable and legitimate."
   In other words, they are going to promote prostitution as something which is always forced.
   
2. Ruhama think prostitution (and lap dancing) is sexual abuse. I quote Ruhama: "Prostitution is one of the most extreme forms of sexual exploitation. It is the commercialization of sexual abuse. Prostitution is violence against women."
   
3. Ruhama think men who use prostitutes (and lap dancers) are abusers. I quote Ruhama: "Ruhama views the men who buy women for prostitution as users and abusers."
   
4. Ruhama support extremist feminism, i.e. Dvorkian/McKinnon feminism. This is a very damaging form of feminism which promotes the concept of any sort of sexual words, activities or photos as being violence against women. For example, if a woman shows her bare shoulders in a photo she is being sexually assaulted. Another example, if a man mentions a sexual word around a woman (even if it is in context, such as a biology lecturer talking about sexual reproduction) she is being sexually assaulted.
   Ruhama's conference in Limerick, "Pornography, a Violence against Women" had McKinnon as a guest speaker.
5. Ruhama claim to have helped many victims of trafficking (kidnapping and forced prostitution): "Since 2000, Ruhama has come in contact with up to 150 presumed victims of cross border trafficking into the sex industry and are aware of others through these contacts." Yet the Gardai say this does not exist: "Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest at Store St Station, says that there is no evidence that any of the girls are being forced into prostitution, none is underage and most pocket 50 per cent of their earnings."
   So either Ruhama are telling lies or the Gardai are telling lies.
6. Ruhama have recently launched their "National Action Plan to Prevent & Combat Human Trafficking" which is a very well organised action to put pressure on the Government to clamp down on prostitution. You will recently have seen a large number of Ruhama articles in the newspaper regarding this topic, and you may have seen the anti-trafficking bus shelters and Luas shelters paid for by Ruhama.
   It is clear their next line of attack against prostitution is the human trafficking angle.

This is all from the Ruhama website. I didn't even need to to quote the hundreds of articles they've placed in the Independent.

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you still won't accept I am talking any sense after this, you need to leave this thread.

What an arrogant, patronizing comment.

Thank you so much but I think I'll decide whether or not to post, not you.

Overheal

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you still won't accept I am talking any sense after this, you need to leave this thread. It is pretty clear to me you have already made your mind up on prostitution.

1. Ruhama admit they do not want to distinguish between "forced prostitution" and "free choice prostitution". I quote Ruhama: "Distinctions between forced and free are dangerous – they can be used to make some forms of prostitution more acceptable and legitimate."
   In other words, they are going to promote prostitution as something which is always forced.

I can think of anti-gun groups who will say the same thing about firearms, even though less than 1% of all firearms manufactured will probably ever kill someone.

1. Ruhama think prostitution (and lap dancing) is sexual abuse. I quote Ruhama: "Prostitution is one of the most extreme forms of sexual exploitation. It is the commercialization of sexual abuse. Prostitution is violence against women."

Says nothing about lap dancing there. And technically since you are paying to do things to a woman/in the prescence of a woman that anywhere else would get you jailed/fired, yeah.

[*]Ruhama think men who use prostitutes (and lap dancers) are abusers. I quote Ruhama: "Ruhama views the men who buy women for prostitution as users and abusers."

This is a grey area. Sex is a physical need, like eating meat is a physical need. Yet the vegetarian argument still remains demand begets supply and slaughter. No, I dont agree with their viewpoint.

[*]Ruhama support extremist feminism, i.e. Dvorkian/McKinnon feminism. This is a very damaging form of feminism which promotes the concept of any sort of sexual words, activities or photos as being violence against women. For example, if a woman shows her bare shoulders in a photo she is being sexually assaulted. Another example, if a man mentions a sexual word around a woman (even if it is in context, such as a biology lecturer talking about sexual reproduction) she is being sexually assaulted.
Ruhama's conference in Limerick, "Pornography, a Violence against Women" had McKinnon as a guest speaker.

Let this one go. Its better to leave extremist opinions be what they may. Its why Ron Paul will never be elected to the presedency because he beleives Aliens Abducted him. The same reason nobody is really afraid of an organisation that thinks an Evil alien lord xenu this that bla bla bla.

[*]Ruhama claim to have helped many victims of trafficking (kidnapping and forced prostitution): "Since 2000, Ruhama has come in contact with up to 150 presumed victims of cross border trafficking into the sex industry and are aware of others through these contacts." Yet the Gardai say this does not exist: "Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest at Store St Station, says that there is no evidence that any of the girls are being forced into prostitution, none is underage and most pocket 50 per cent of their earnings."
So either Ruhama are telling lies or the Gardai are telling lies.

Okay.

[*]Ruhama have recently launched their "National Action Plan to Prevent & Combat Human Trafficking" which is a very well organised action to put pressure on the Government to clamp down on prostitution. You will recently have seen a large number of Ruhama articles in the newspaper regarding this topic, and you may have seen the anti-trafficking bus shelters and Luas shelters paid for by Ruhama.
It is clear their next line of attack against prostitution is the human trafficking angle.
[/LIST]

This is all from the Ruhama website. I didn't even need to to quote the hundreds of articles they've placed in the Independent.

Your points are fair, but whats there to accomplish here? Boards is a wonderful medium but it doesnt have much stretch into reality. Why not launch an investigation into Ruhama and get them publicly discredited?

sprinklesspanky

I've only read the first two pages but I can say AARRRGH is spot on.

If anyone is illegally forced into prostitution it should be easy to prove through some means and those trafficking them should be punished by the full extent of the law. However what happens between two consenting adults, without coercion, should be legal. Ireland already has a law against pimps, the law states somethign to the effect that it is illegal for others other than the prostitute to profit from the act of prostitution.

Trafficing is not happening in Ireland. About two years ago the Guards provided a report on prostitution, it was in the media, sating it was their recommendation that it be fully legalized and that they had no reports of trafficking in Ireland. (can someone find this?)

Ruhama are notoriously one sided.

Why do Ruhama get all this media attention? SImple, because sex sells. The Independent needs to start fact checking Ruham's statistics and figures.

Personally, I see this as an attempt by a minority organisation to push it's repressed agenda on the whole public. I don't like the idea of our freedoms being taken away, just like what Mary Harney did with our mushrooms.

If I want to see a prostitute or if I want to be one I should be allowed to do so as long as I am not hurting others.

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

What an arrogant, patronizing comment.

Thank you so much but I think I'll decide whether or not to post, not you.

You refuse to accept whatever evidence I post, and continue to push your own personal/emotional view as the view of the world. Now THAT is arrogance. At least I am trying to stick to the facts.

I understand you have issues with prostitution, but surely you can leave them aside while you think about this topic logically?

Overheal wrote:

Says nothing about lap dancing there.

I just didn't bother including that bit. If you go to their website you will see they have had numerous campaigns against lap dancing.

Overheal wrote:

Your points are fair, but whats there to accomplish here? Boards is a wonderful medium but it doesnt have much stretch into reality. Why not launch an investigation into Ruhama and get them publicly discredited?

Isn't the humanities forum a good place to debate this sort of thing? I'm not trying to change the world... although I do intend to continue monitoring what Ruhama say and do.

Boards is just a bit of fun.