New roads and Landscaping

Carawaystick

I saw men spreading seed on the M6 last Friday, and some other vans cutting and possibly planting . Maybe, furet, the planting is going to happen now. I know deciduous trees grow best when planted in the Winter.

jmkennedyie

Reminds me, N4/M50 junction and M50 Phase 3 have recently been / are being planted with trees. Also spotted new young trees planted on upgraded N7 near Naas, Maudlins, but they looked suspiciously coniferous and non-native :-(. For maximum benefit trees/seeds should be of native species from local stock (not descended from stock imported from foreign nurseries).

BluntGuy

Carlow Bypass needs urgent landscaping.

Looks ugly IMO.

Amtmann

Glad to hear that planting is ongoing. Given the amount of land wastage on some schemes, thousands of trees could be planted safely along the motorways with no danger to safety or signage whatever.

I sort of had a thread on this issue a while back and it received luke-warm support (Here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055368766)

mikemac

I remember that thread
More important things to be spending money on realy......
So if money is going to be spent I hope it has benefits like wind barrier or to stop erosion of slopes and not just aesthetics. We have parks if that's what you want

However, I will say the N52 Nenagh bypass has loads of trees and is landscaped and looks fantastic

Amtmann

Apparently South Tipp County Council (a group I'm rapidly beginning to despise) will "identify and auction [to farmers]" surplus land along the M8. One hopes it won't be used by the gombeen men to blitz the place with bungalows. See: http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/11/20/story77909.asp

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

Apparently South Tipp County Council (a group I'm rapidly beginning to despise) will "identify and auction [to farmers]" surplus land along the M8. One hopes it won't be used by the gombeen men to blitz the place with bungaloes. See: http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/11/20/story77909.asp

What exactly is the purpose of this idea? It makes little sense to sell-off extra land. What is it going to be used for?

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

What exactly is the purpose of this idea? It makes little sense to sell-off extra land. What is it going to be used for?

I'm thinking they're planning on turning it back into farmland.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

I'm thinking they're planning on turning it back into farmland.

But is this land within the boundry fencing? That's my main concern. If it is, it could cause unnecessary disruption.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

But is this land within the boundry fencing? That's my main concern. If it is, it could cause unnecessary disruption.

It is, but the boundary fencing in some cases is many many metres out from the road. I had hoped they'd plant this land with trees in time.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

It is, but the boundary fencing in some cases is many many metres out from the road. I had hoped they'd plant this land with trees in time.

So did I, which is why I'm anxious for the land not to be given back. Bungaloes and animals pressed right up against the road. Not my cup of tea.

If that was to be the case, it would make the road feel quite claustrophobic and actually negatively affect the driver's mood, something I'm sure the NRA would (or should, at least,) be keen to avoid.

bowsie casey

Most new dual carraigeways/motorways have some sort of landscaping plan. The plan on most of the N6 seems to be "let's grow a load of weeds and don't bother maintaining it". It looks really poor and I am surprised that it hasn't been planted properly.

Has anyone else noticed this ? Is it going to be planted properly ?

Carawaystick

There's no N6 there. only a M6.

What would you suggest Offaly and Westmeath County Councils cut their spending on to make the road look better?

how much would you pay for a proper plan?

errlloyd

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's no N6 there. only a M6.

What would you suggest Offaly and Westmeath County Councils cut their spending on to make the road look better?

how much would you pay for a proper plan?

Although I fully agree with you here, sucks when its your road that doesn't get the same treatment all the others did, know what I mean?

Carawaystick

There were other posters here complaining about the aestethics of various motorways in the Fingal co.co. area. This is the same area that can;t clean the beaches where people actually spend quality leisure time. If the Co.Co can't afford to clean these areas up, then why give a toss about motorway lands?

errlloyd

Already said I agree with your first post

Amtmann

It's a major gripe of mine as well. The way we manage how our country and infrastructure looks says a lot about the Irish in my opinion. I always feel ashamed when I see the blatant disregard for our landscape.

I had a very long letter in the Clonmel Nationalist last spring about the state of the M8 Cashel to Mitchelstown scheme, which, just like the M6, looks awful from an aesthetic point of view. I had expected the letter to be poorly received because of the economic situation but actually, almost everyone commended me and several people raised it with councillors during the local elections.

Anyway, here's an older thread on the very same topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055368766

harsea8

I'd rather they pick up all the litter left at the parking areas on the M6 than worry about the weeds....last time I stopped at one there was a fridge/freezer dumped in the ditch just out of view of the road...lovely advert for any tourists that may stop there!

Amtmann

^^ Both should be taken care of.

Wild Bill

The planting along the M6 is OK in many parts; it takes 4 or 5 years for trees to get themselves established above the grass and weeds; killing all the vegetation bar the weeds leaves the soil on the banks exposed and subject to erosion and being washed away. Best tactic it is plant small trees densely, spray competing vegetation for maybe two years - spot application - still won't look great. But if enough trees have survived by five or six years they are shading out the weeds and you have woodland cover by 10 years of age. After that the trees take off, as they have on older schemes like the M4 Lucan - Kinnegad and the N11 Newtown bypass and many others.

The change to "native only" tree species that political correctness gave us the past 10 years hasn't helped; native species have poor (or no) Autumn colour; they don't have the vigour to establish cover (mountain ash is widely planted and useless, alder in places that are too too dry etc). Ash and birch are two of the most suitable natives though ash for miles and miles is very dull. Scot's pine is OK but needs to be planted very densely or you wait 25 years for something that looks well.

In earlier schemes we have non-native maples, sycamore, larch, beech as well as ash and birch - trees that grow vigorously and establish a nice look within half a dozen years.

Don't expect anything pretty sooner than that.

And the racist attitude to non-native trees means some of the current schemes will always look dull and scraggy.

Sponge Bob

There is no reson why a boards.ie elite tree planting gang cannot lep over a wall at the dead of night and plant a spash of vigourous colour hither and thither . March is a good month for it , dark early and you would make it to the pub for a pint afterwards

Native birch and silver birch are very vigourous , 5 years and they are 10 foot or so .

Amtmann

Well, here is an edited version of a proposal I submitted to the Minister for the Environment well over six months ago:

...Over the past year I have seen an excellent opportunity to exploit the thousands of acres of unused land along verges of many of these new roads to plant many millions of native trees. After all, a well designed motorway can support hundreds of thousands or even millions of trees and shrubs on redundant land along the edges, without compromising traffic safety or signage visibility.

I would like to explain my idea to you, taking the recently-opened 37km Cashel to Mitchelstown M8 motorway through Counties Tipperary and Limerick as an example. Let me first direct you here to this short two-page thread on boards.ie for photographs of some of the unused land associated with this road: New motorway verge maintenance & planting: non existent! - boards.ie , especially posts #25 and #26. Please note that these images highlight but a tiny percentage of the unused land on the route. They were taken last summer at the northern end of the scheme, between Cashel and the village of New Inn. South of Cahir, the quantity of land that is unused is even more pronounced (even South Tipperary County Council have recognised this). On straighter sections of the route between Cahir and Mitchelstown the road is not banked by steep verges at all; rather, the sides of the road are broad and flat, and there is a corridor some 20-30m or more in width and many kilometres long running the whole length of the M8, on both sides, totally unused, that would be ideal for tree planting.

I have contacted the NRA about what I regard as the lack of proper landscaping accompanying these schemes. The Authority commented that their new planting policy is designed to reflect the habitat through which the road runs. In the case of the M8 for example, this is grassland, and so the NRA has not planted trees in great numbers in order to blend the route into the fields that flank the road. That is the theory anyway. It is deeply flawed however. Ireland's grasslands are neat and green because they are grazed. Roadsides will not be similarly grazed; consequently the grass sown thereon will grow unchecked, turn brown, and become weedy. Hence one gets the grassy eyesores highlighted in my photos (and recently by one of your party's candidates, Adam Douglas, in relation to the M8 Fermoy Bypass) that blight what should be amongst the most verdant countryside in Ireland.

The Proposal

My proposal is simple, cheap, and would involve marshalling schools and local communities. It is this:

In areas where planting is suitable, gather native seed (acorns, ash keys, hazel and larch cones, etc.) and have school children and other volunteers to plant them in pots. In time these would then be planted along suitable parts of each of the interurban motorways.

The areas that need tree cover most are spaces adjacent to overbridges (as you can see from my pictures); by grade separated junctions; and along wide, flat areas of roadside where the trees will not fall onto the road. The trees would have numerous benefits, and, if correctly chosen and situated, would require no maintenance. This would be a project similar, in some respects, to the Millenium Forests enterprise. I am bringing this idea to you, Minister Gormley, in the hope that you will recognise the merit, simplicity and opportunity that my proposal offers. I know that the Green Party members are not fans of roads, and that is fine. You do not need to be.

Things that need to happen include:

- getting Government backing (i.e. this needs to become government policy);
- getting the NRA to allow planting to take place and getting the motorways concerned;
- getting town councils, local authorities, as well as schools and Boards of Management involved;
- getting Coillte and the Tree Council involved (for seeds, planting demonstrations etc).

The plan has the potential to do several things. As well as having obvious environmental benefits, it will allow the State and the NRA to be environmentally proactive in a tangiable, practical way that is also aesthetically pleasing. It would also serve to educate young people about the importance of trees and ecology, and it will allow communities to participate in a national programme of afforestation, possibly rekindling in the process a spirit of volunteerism.

...

I eagrely look forward to your response to my idea.

Kind Regards,

Sponge Bob

Did you send that to Dempsey and Battman O Keefe and what did the Ministers have to say in response Furet ?????

Wild Bill

Good stuff - I'd just quibble with the native restriction - Larch wouldn't qualify for example. The purists even reject trees like beech and sycamore which have been here for 1,000 years! And as you say there is no way we will make motorway verges to look like the grazed, fertilized grasslands of cattle and sheep country.

Trees not only conceal the ugly bridges they are now building (see new M8 Cahir to Mitchlestown) but near urban areas they hide graffiti. (They removed trees from the sides of the M50 Southern Cross section to widen it and the walls and bridge supports exposed have acres of fading grafetti - no doubt to be freshened up shortly!)

And in think of all the CO2 that wayside woodlands would lock up!

Amtmann

I sent it to the environment spokespersons of FG, FF, Labour and the Greens. I received a paltry acknowledgment from the first three and nothing since. From Minister Gormley's office I received a very short response one month later from a secretary saying the Minister was "studying the proposal". I've heard absolutely nothing since then. I think that was last December or January. If a Green minister doesn't care, then there's no hope.

Amtmann

Wild Bill wrote: »

Good stuff - I'd just quibble with the native restriction - Larch wouldn't qualify for example. The purists even reject trees like beech and sycamore which have been here for 1,000 years!

Yes, you're right about that. I really wouldn't mind what they planted as long as they:
a) greened the place up a bit;
b) could be used by wild fauna as place to refuge and breed (I'm thinking mostly of birds and insects here).

I said native because I thought that would appeal to a Green Party minister. As for Larch, I was misinformed.

Wild Bill

Quick glance at their "new planting policy" and it seems that this could be renamed the "cheap landscaping policy" - Lots of green-sounding nonsense for doing nothing!

Look at the list of suitable trees (Appendix A) and wonder no more why the motorway surrounds will look more like derelict brownfield sites for decades than the sort of visual quality you see everywhere on the continent.


http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Environment/file,3481,en.pdf


I think the idea of planting a few larch in the dead of night is a great idea! Kinda Boards.ie version of Johnny Appleseed. We'll call him Joey HorseChestnut.

bowsie casey

I was surprised at the state of the M6 landscaping because the Ennis Bypass was completed less than a year before it, and was the landscaping was pretty good - nothing spectacular, but not like it was left to degenerate to weeds.

For those that have insinuated that building more/better roads is more of a priority, planting the verges is a very minor cost in the scheme of a new road, and is generally a requirement of the scheme EIS.

Victor

Moved to Infrastructure.

Amtmann

Landscaping threads merged.

Tech3

Nenagh to Castletown M7 planned landscaping

Last month saw an exciting new project starting to take shape on the Nenagh-Castletown section of the M7 motorway with the planting of organic hayseeds, which it is hoped will line the new route with a beautiful array of wildflowers. Part of a pioneering project undertaken between main contractors Bowen-Somague JV, international engineering and design specialists Atkins Global, and University College Cork, the scheme involves planting the hayseeds on selected plots along the 36km route.





The seeds in question were provided by Cappawhite farmer Tom Coffey, who owns one of Ireland’s treasure troves of ancient history at Carnahalla. Tom’s farm, which exhibits important archaeological evidence of human settlement stretching back as far as 6,000 years ago, boasts a traditional organic meadow that has remained much the same for the last thousand years. Carnahalla is one of only a small number of farms of its kind in this country, and Tom therefore turned out to be an ideal donor for the new M7 project.
Lisa Dolan, the project’s team leader for environmental design, says the hayseeds from the Carnahalla meadow are perfect for what the group is trying to achieve on the M7. She explained that meadows that have been fertilised over time yield a poor diversity of wildflower. Those being supplied by Tom however have not been tainted and are likely to germinate into a much better quality and range of flower along the new road.
The meadowland at Carnahalla yields a rich biodiversity of flora, including such species as orchids, ragged robin, mint, sorrel, vetch, rush, sedge, silver weed and meadow sweet.
The Carnahalla hay was cut in the early autumn, and the hayseeds are to now be spread along the Nenagh-Castletown route ahead of its scheduled opening at the end of next year.

Link

Amtmann

I'll just repeat what I said on the other thread:

The one thing about hay meadows is that they're supposed to be cut. Who will cut it on the M7? What this essentially means is that we will have another treeless gash through the countryside. And though it will look nice from April to June each year, after that it will resemble a savanah and look totally out of place - unless it's tended to, which it won't be.

Incidentally, wildflower meadows were supposed to have been planted on some parts of the M8 and M9 already. And also, a suppressed memory has suddenly surfaced: I've just recalled that about two years ago I went for a drink with the landscape architect who was designing the planting scheme for the M9. She was very outlandish, and I ended up making excuses and leaving early. I should've asked her about the plants she was going to put in, and whether she was under any instructions to limit the amount of trees. But I'd only a fleeting interest in roads back then....

Mr Clonfadda

Surely the whole point of a natural meadow is that you don't cut it. Otherwise you would kill off the wild flowers

Zoney

Nigel Sage: I presume cutting meadow is to make up for it not being grazed - and it seems rather preposterous to suggest that cutting a meadow would kill the flowers (obviously regular short cutting would only allow certain flowers to flourish, but it's presumably a once a year type thing - *if* they cut it at all).

Amtmann

Nigel Sage wrote: »

Surely the whole point of a natural meadow is that you don't cut it. Otherwise you would kill off the wild flowers

There's actually no such thing as a natural meadow (unless we count prairie or steppe, which I'll come to below). Meadows arise from non-intensive agricultural practices. The grass grows from spring to early summer, and then it is cut down to the scut, only to grow again and be grazed for a few months. The cycle is then repeated. The closest natural equivalent would be prairie or steppe, but even these are generally grazed by wildlife - by millions upon millions of bison in the case of pre-18th-century America, for instance.

Mr Clonfadda

Hey Zoney I did mean regular cutting.

Furet. I bow to your superior Knowledge.

Irish roads never seem to be properly attended to at any category though.

Amtmann

Nigel Sage wrote: »

Irish roads never seem to be properly attended to at any category though.

This is the problem. But I suppose my point essentially is that if they were planted with appropriate trees and shrubs from Day One, very little if any maintenance would be required. On the one extreme you have the M8 Glanmire Bypass section, where indeed plants are located too close to the carriageway. At the other end of the spectrum then you have the likes of the Cashel to Mitchelstown or Watergrasshill Bypass sections on the M8, and in the future the Castletown to Nenagh M7 section, or several M11 sections.
Eventually I have no doubt that through the process of succession the embankments will develop a rich covering of flora; but this will take many, many years, decades probably.

Carawaystick

Heading west on the M6 at various places and times over the weekend, I noticed between I'd say Kilbeggan and Athlone that the shrubs were flowering- some white flowers and some catkins from bushes about 1m high. I'd say they were Blackthorn and either a spindly hazel or willow- was going too fast to really see - I'd have had to stop to be sure, which isn't allowed...

And on the PPP section of the M6 there are long sections coned off to allow landscaping continue (Also on the new N65 section) but less sign of plant life here- it looks like a few sticks stuck in the ground.

I wonder if the PPP contract has something about the state of the planting?


One last point, some( two I'd say) of the overbridges have a very steep bank covered in hessian from the M6 up to the bridge abutment - It's 75 or 80 degrees, compared to the usual 50 degrees or so. There's no sign of life on the hessian to bind the face of the bank- It seems strange.

KevR

Athlone-Kilbeggan had feck all plants or shrubs last summer. As far as I can remember, it had a lot of long wild grass and weeds.

Wild Bill

"organic hayseeds" ! This is the greatest load of green baloney I've heard since....yesterday. What is an inorganic hayseed?!

As someone has pointed out, outside of semi-arid regions of the globe (and that doesn't include anywhere between Castletown and Nenagh) nothing resembling meadow is natural - or "organic" (if we want to abuse the English language).

Apart from some raised bog, where the issue is debatable, the "natural" vegetation of Ireland if woodland. Even the Burren and the moorlands on the mountain tops would not remain bare without the constant effort of man and his woolly animals.

So if we want to restore a small sample of "nature" to the countryside the linear forests along the motorways is the way to go.

Also the "natural meadows" full of wildflowers can't be maintained just by cutting the grass. It needs grazing animals or mono-cultures take over after a few years. Check any motorway median.

Grazing animals would be kinda cute on our motorways, though a dead cow or sheep might be more problematic than the odd badger.

Wild Bill

Also - some of you folk carping about the state of motorway landscaping need to bear in mind that areas planted with trees will take up to 10 years to look better than scrappy. For the first 5 years you'll hardly see the trees - many stretches folk here complain about are actually well planted.

Don't expect to see much on the M6 for a few years.

I may do a survey just for Boards.ie this Summer!

Amtmann

Well the Fermoy Bypass (six years old) will look great in another couple of years. The saplings are really taking off now.

Wild Bill

Yep - after the long cold winter I noticed yesterday that with the buds finally bursting the trees are becoming noticable on stretches of the M4 tolled section.

Zoney

Furet wrote: »

Well the Fermoy Bypass (six years old) will look great in another couple of years. The saplings are really taking off now.

At ten years, the M20 is looking great this year too now that the trees have grown a bit (the cutting at J3 for Raheen for example).

However, I think I mentioned before, this does unfortunately mean we need to retrofit crash barriers to the verges of a lot of our motorways. It isn't safe to have unprotected tree trunks at the side of a motorway. This seems to be a serious oversight as regards such planting.

mysterious

Since many national routes are bypassed, isn't it now a good opportunity for people who live near old n roads to plant trees along it. Like lots of Native Irish trees. I got a 2 bundles of 10, there for 25 euro. Which is 20 trees last week and planted them on the roadside.

Amtmann

Just on landscaping, the entire area in the foreground of this photo, and the motorway embankment you can see in the centre-left, was supposed to have been carpeted with hazel, willow and mountain ash when the road was planted in 2007 (this part of the M8 C-M scheme opened in October 2007):



The entire embankment on the left was also supposed to have been heavily planted, nothing survived but thistles and dock:



After much pestering, South Tipp Co Co had a team of landscapers out there two weeks ago, and they strimmed the whole thing. I have received a commitment that intensive re-planting will take place over the coming winter. We'll see.

Wild Bill

Furet wrote: »

After much pestering, South Tipp Co Co had a team of landscapers out there two weeks ago, and they strimmed the whole thing. I have received a commitment that intensive re-planting will take place over the coming winter. We'll see.

Good Lord Furet! They strimmed everything? And there was a fine looking Mountain Ash and some nice hazels in the foreground.

What have you done?! :eek:

Amtmann

Wild Bill wrote: »

Good Lord Furet! They strimmed everything?

I sought only to have one 500m stretch of creeping thistle and dock between junction 9 and 10 strimmed or sprayed in preparation for replanting with rowan, hazel, hawthorn and willow. Instead they strimmed over 13 km of the southbound carriageway (and only the southbound carriageway), front, back and sides. It took four men five days. They butchered the noxious weeds, but judiciously left all other flora.

And there was a fine looking Mountain Ash and some nice hazels in the foreground.

There are exactly 15 shrubs and trees in an area that could take (and is supposed to take) several hundred. Those 15 shrubs and trees will have several hundred newly planted comrades beside them by spring 2011.

What have you done?! :eek:

I have sought to ensure that the planting plan outlined in the M8 C-M scheme's EIS will be implemented. I discovered that the landscaper is obliged to maintain the planting on the scheme and replace any dead trees and shrubs until March 2012. That is now what they will do (or so I am promised).

Wild Bill

Furet wrote: »

I discovered that the landscaper is obliged to maintain the planting on the scheme and replace any dead trees and shrubs until March 2012. That is now what they will do (or so I am promised).

Serious financial hit for the landscape contractor (do you know who it is btw?) - the entire thing will have to be re-established with a carpet of grass and other vegetation to contend with.

Not that I'd reckon hazel and rowan are trees by any reasonable definition! More like shrubs - they will never shade out the competing vegetation - this will have to be maintained forever! :cool:

Amtmann

Wild Bill wrote: »

Serious financial hit for the landscape contractor (do you know who it is btw?) - the entire thing will have to be re-established with a carpet of grass and other vegetation to contend with.

I don't think they will do half that. I fully expect them to just heel some saplings in and spray around the base, a half-arsed job. I don't know who the contractor is for the C-M scheme, but I know that Grangemore got the M-F scheme (and don't seem to be doing a very good job). Whoever did the Cashel-Cullahill scheme deserves a medal. A fantastic job was done.

Not that I'd reckon hazel and rowan are trees by any reasonable definition! More like shrubs - they will never shade out the competing vegetation - this will have to be maintained forever! :cool:

Unfortunately you are right; but if planted thickly enough with less of the rowan and more hazel and hawthorn, ten years might leave us with a thick enough covering. It was gratifying to see the verges tidied anyway. The entire area around my house was destroyed with ragwort, dock and thistle after the M8 opened, particularly on a local road at an overbridge realignment. I am sorting that out myself actually - a personal project of mine to while away a few hours each week in between job-seeking.

Sponge Bob

Native trees @ around 4 years old and not planted in a drought like H1 2010 can compete with grasses. If they are younger than that and hit a drought ....no.

Excepting whitethorn and blackthorn that take an age to establish of course.