Outer City Bypass

Iwannahurl

Little My wrote: »

But I think Im beginning to understand the Irish/West of Ireland/Galway sentiment as epitomised by your post. Or maybe I'm being unfair - is it just a density of population thing?

Density is definitely an issue.

Iwannahurl

Deleted User wrote: »

My beef with anti bypass folks is "what about non person vehicular traffic from West of Galway that is travelling East of Galway City?"

In this day and age, if I am passing a town and don't need to enter the town, I don't need to enter it with my big truck.

...

It's been 20 years. Enough is enough. Get it built.

25 years actually -- of inaction, inertia, passivity and Waiting for Godot.

According to the N6GCTP Project Manager, just 5% of traffic would travel the entire length of a bypass.

What proportion of that 5% would be HGV/freight traffic, do you reckon? And can you point to any data on that score?

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

25 years actually -- of inaction, inertia, passivity and Waiting for Godot.

According to the N6GCTP Project Manager, just 5% of traffic would travel the entire length of a bypass.

What proportion of that 5% would be HGV/freight traffic, do you reckon? And can you point to any data on that score?

At that rate we couldn't justify the road to Dublin because not all the traffic on it goes to Dublin, FFS!!!

Bobeagleburger

Deleted User wrote: »

My beef with anti bypass folks is "what about non person vehicular traffic from West of Galway that is travelling East of Galway City?"

In this day and age, if I am passing a town and don't need to enter the town, I don't need to enter it with my big truck.

Athlone, Kinnegad, Enfield.

All were traffic choke points.

All were bypassed.

All are far more navigable, far more cyclable, far more liveable nowadays.

Why should Galway be any different?

We have a 6km (as crow flies) stretch of river where we can bridge. We need to bridge it for non Galway traffic.

We need roads from either side to feed this bridge with non-city traffic.

It's been 20 years. Enough is enough. Get it built.

Spot on.

Especially when you consider the city will only get bigger and the number of vehicles increase!

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

At that rate we couldn't justify the road to Dublin because not all the traffic on it goes to Dublin, FFS!!!

Was the road to Dublin touted as a "bypass" of everything in between?

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Was the road to Dublin touted as a "bypass" of everything in between?

I guess the M6 pretty much bypasses even the old Dublin road and the likes of Loughrea, moate etc, so yes!

WallyGUFC

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Was the road to Dublin touted as a "bypass" of everything in between?

I don't really understand your issue with the bypass. Surely you can see that if it's built, people will use it. People will use it going to work from West to East instead of the QB. People will use it if heading back west. Surely you can see this would lead to less traffic in the middle of town, less traffic over the Salmon Weir etc. Surely then, we could implement your public transport/cycle path utopia. The middle of town would be safer for pedestrians and cyclists, Ceannt Station could be a public transport hub. You could also have buses using the QB with bus lanes all the way from Westside out as far as Renmore and out Bothar na dTreabh as far as Parkmore.

Do you not think that would work?

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

I guess the M6 pretty much bypasses even the old Dublin road and the likes of Loughrea, moate etc, so yes!

How many motorists in Loughrea and Moate are using the M6 to commute from one end of the town to another?

If that were the primary purpose of the M6 for car commuters in Moate and Loughrea, then could the M6 really be regarded as a "bypass" for that cohort of car commuters in such a scenario?

Iwannahurl

WallyGUFC wrote: »

I don't really understand your issue with the bypass. Surely you can see that if it's built, people will use it. People will use it going to work from West to East instead of the QB. People will use it if heading back west. Surely you can see this would lead to less traffic in the middle of town, less traffic over the Salmon Weir etc. Surely then, we could implement your public transport/cycle path utopia. The middle of town would be safer for pedestrians and cyclists, Ceannt Station could be a public transport hub. You could also have buses using the QB with bus lanes all the way from Westside out as far as Renmore and out Bothar na dTreabh as far as Parkmore.

Do you not think that would work?

Except the GCOB was always touted as exactly that, a "bypass":

L1011 wrote: »

Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.

...

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

L1011 wrote: »

The GCOB is a bypass for those who do not need to be in or forced around the outside of Galway City, not a relief road for those that do. If you take a look at the plans this becomes blindingly obvious so I suggest that you do.

So what's going on here?

Is the story changing?

Is the sales pitch being modified?

Have the official objectives been changed?

Is there disagreement or confusion as to what the "bypass" was about in the first place -- ie complete bypass of the city for external traffic versus convenient ring-road for cross-town car commuters?

Or is it just that "bypass" enthusiasts can no longer keep up the pretence, and the real intent is at last being made clear?

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Except the GCOB was always touted as exactly that, a "bypass":





So what's going on here?

Is the story changing?

Is the sales pitch being modified?

Have the official objectives been changed?

Is there general confusion as to what the "bypass" was about in the first place -- ie complete bypass of the city for external traffic versus convenient ring-road for cross-town car commuters?

Or is it just that "bypass" enthusiasts can no longer keep up the pretence, and the real intent is at last being made clear?

I'm seeing a lot of questions, and no answers from you.

No answers? Nothing to add. No reason to heed you.

I'm no enthusiast. I'm someone who wants to build his home & family west of Galway, who cannot because of the likes of you.

Get out of my way.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How many motorists in Loughrea and Moate are using the M6 to commute from one end of the town to another?

If that were the primary purpose of the M6 for car commuters in Moate and Loughrea, then could the M6 really be regarded as a "bypass" for that cohort of car commuters in such a scenario?

Its development has benefited those going to and from Dublin and left those in towns like Loughrea the ability to do business, I grew to hate Loughrea as a town as I only ever associated it with being delayed, now its a nice town to stop off in to do business or have good food, its not all about prams and bikes and bog cotton! The red mist has descended and you won't allow yourself to see the benefits!

Iwannahurl

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm seeing a lot of questions, and no answers from you.

No answers? Nothing to add. No reason to heed you.

I'm no enthusiast. I'm someone who wants to build his home & family west of Galway, who cannot because of the likes of you.

Get out of my way.

I'll take that as a Don't Know.

crusier wrote: »

Its development has benefited those going to and from Dublin and left those in towns like Loughrea the ability to do business, I grew to hate Loughrea as a town as I only ever associated it with being delayed, now its a nice town to stop off in to do business or have good food, its not all about prams and bikes and bog cotton! The red mist has descended and you won't allow yourself to see the benefits!

You didn't answer the question, but of course we probably know already. In all likelihood there was nobody trying to sell a "bypass" of Loughrea or Moate that was really a ring-road for commuters to cross from either side of those towns to the other.

In Galway the "bypass" salesmen have been hawking their snake oil for the past 25 years or so. The sales pitch ain't working these days and desperation must be setting in, hence the crew gone a-begging in Brussels.

Bobeagleburger

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'll take that as a Don't Know.

Why are you against the bypass/outer ring road?

rabwaygal

Only after seeing the City Tribune. So Barn Owls are going to cause a problem huh :-)

Im just surprised that people arent planting bog cotton and rare snails along the root!!

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'll take that as a Don't Know.




You didn't answer the question, but of course we probably know already. In all likelihood there was nobody trying to sell a "bypass" of Loughrea or Moate that was really a ring-road for commuters to cross from either side of those towns to the other.

In Galway the "bypass" salesmen have been hawking their snake oil for the past 25 years or so. The sales pitch ain't working these days and desperation must be setting in, hence the crew gone a-begging in Brussels.

Oh sweet Jesus!

Iwannahurl

rarnes1 wrote: »

Why are you against the bypass/outer ring road?

I have never campaigned against a bypass, and I am not doing so now.

As I have stated already, I was genuinely surprised when leading members of the N6 Action Group declared they were against any bypass, not just the Rainbow Routes.

It's just that I have never seen any clear and solid case being made for a "bypass". This post of mine outlines my position on the subject: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

Sean Kyne TD recently said that "the need for a City Bypass is understood and supported by the vast majority of the people in Galway City and County."

So clear and so well understood that it doesn't even need to be stated or supported by evidence, apparently. Opinion is all that's needed, and what's more, just car commuters' opinion.

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

Oh sweet Jesus!

They could save the price of a plane ticket, stay at home and light a candle (or maybe drive to a Novena or two in the Cathedral).

The informed opinion I have heard is that they haven't, er, got a prayer in Brussels. It can only be desperation that's forcing them to dig up the old GCOB plans, as if the ECJ ruling can somehow be set aside on the basis of Irish-style special pleading.

Sean Kyne TD again:

I have sought clarification on the Galway Bypass and the N6 Project from several sources – the Department and the Minister for Transport, the National Roads Authority, Galway County Council, the Arup Consultants, MEP Mairead McGuinness and several staff members of the Irish representation in the EU. The clarification I’ve received, and the discussions and meetings I’ve had, lead me to believe that the old route is out.

Like many others I was led to believe that the IROPI Process – the Imperative Reasons of Overriding Public Interest process – could be used to proceed with the bypass. It appears now that this is not the case for two reasons:

• IROPI is used only when there are absolutely no alternatives. In this case, we have been presented with a least six alternative routes so far.
• IROPI is concerned predominantly with the environment – so, for example, the expansion of Mutton Island would be covered because failing to expand a waste-water treatment site would, in time, be more detrimental to the environment than by doing nothing at all. Moreover, this would be classed as a serious public health matter.

So the present situation seems to be:

• The old GCOB is dead and gone, and is beyond resurrection, even by Sweet Baby Jesus.
• The six Rainbow Routes are about to be emphatically rejected.

Where to next I wonder?

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

They could save the price of a plane ticket, stay at home and light a candle (or maybe drive to a Novena or two in the Cathedral).

The informed opinion I have heard is that they haven't, er, got a prayer in Brussels. It can only be desperation that's forcing them to dig up the old GCOB plans, as if the ECJ ruling can somehow be set aside on the basis of Irish-style special pleading.

Sean Kyne TD again:



So the present situation seems to be:

• The old GCOB is dead and gone, and is beyond resurrection, even by Sweet Baby Jesus.
• The six Rainbow Routes are about to be emphatically rejected.

Where to next I wonder?

Wakey wakey! Its time to get up!

TerrorFirmer

The very much needed bypass being referred to as a 'snake oil' pitch by hungry salesmen.

Now I've heard it all. :rolleyes:

The original bypass isn't totally dead, but it seems unlikely to be revived, though not actually impossible.

Realistically, as per Sean Kyne, the demolition of homes must be balanced against the greater good for Galway and it's future expansion and economy.

Not very nice for those in the firing line but that's the truth of the matter and to be fair he does make a pretty solid point.

The more this is delayed the more it's detrimental to Galway going forward.

One a bypass is sorted, then they can turn their attention to public transport solutions to alleviate issues within the city itself. Thinking that a public transport solution at this stage in the game can sort the issue for all concerned is extremely blinkered thinking.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Opinion is all that's needed, and what's more, just car commuters' opinion.

To quote you, have you any evidence to back up that statement.

Plenty of cyclists, walkers and public transport users would also welcome a bypass

Mrs OBumble

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So the present situation seems to be:

• The old GCOB is dead and gone, and is beyond resurrection, even by Sweet Baby Jesus.
• The six Rainbow Routes are about to be emphatically rejected.

Where to next I wonder?

Galway Inner Bypass:

New four lane dual carriageway from the end of the motorway thru Merlin Woods then Murrough (sure there's a few houses in the way, but it's mainly students and they don't matter) and Ballyloughane Beach (it's polluted anyways), past the army base, across to Harbour Enterprise Park (still have to decide if the road's going to overpass the railway line or the other way round), then a new bridge at the mouth of Lough Attalia, another one across Corrib a bit south of the current Wolfe Tone bridge, thru the Claddagh (some more houses in the way there but they're all old anyway), then around the seafront to Barna, with a feeder road off toward Moycullen somewhere around Barna Woods (to minimise the number of houses that need to be knocked, they're nice people out Barna way).

Kinda make the Rainbow Routes look attractive!






I jest, of course. But we do appear to have run out of options for places to put roads.

snubbleste

Dam the Corrib at Menlo. Let Annaghdown and all that area flood. Create very low outflow channels with multiple hydroelectric stations to Rosmuc and another to Oranmore.
Ta da. More free land for car parks and no need for a bridge.

Where's me prize?

Iwannahurl

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The very much needed bypass being referred to as a 'snake oil' pitch by hungry salesmen.

Now I've heard it all. :rolleyes:

The original bypass isn't totally dead, but it seems unlikely to be revived, though not actually impossible.

Realistically, as per Sean Kyne, the demolition of homes must be balanced against the greater good for Galway and it's future expansion and economy.

Not very nice for those in the firing line but that's the truth of the matter and to be fair he does make a pretty solid point.

The more this is delayed the more it's detrimental to Galway going forward.

One a bypass is sorted, then they can turn their attention to public transport solutions to alleviate issues within the city itself. Thinking that a public transport solution at this stage in the game can sort the issue for all concerned is extremely blinkered thinking.

I'm not sure what their appetite has to do with it, but the snake oil salesmen analogy refers to, among other things, the fact that their expensive prescription could not, and most likely will not, deliver as claimed.

Firstly, they were wrong about the old GCOB as proposed. That is now a dead letter, and anyone who believes otherwise is at best gullible. I'm tempted to hedge my bets and say there's an outside chance that the mercy mission to Brussels might succeed, but it might be better to make a definite prediction. So instead I'm going to stick my neck out and say that their attempt to get the EU to change its mind is certain to fail.

Another snake oil claim is that the desired road is a "bypass", needed to remove a substantial volume of through traffic which is clogging up the city. In fact it turns out that such traffic only makes up a small proportion of the total -- see the N6GCTP manager's comment below. I have come to realise that, from the very start, the official objective (despite the rhetoric) and the popular desire (despite the bluff and bluster) was to construct a ring-road for car commuters. I've just found the quote below, and in hindsight I can't quite believe that I didn't appreciate its candour at the time:

There are thousands of vehicles that travel daily in both an east and west direction that have no option but to travel through Galway City, over a road network comprising four river crossings and only one of which is a major bridge that has the capacity to carry large volumes of traffic. The construction of an outer by-pass will remove these vehicles from the City thus freeing up scarce road space for the City traffic.

The traffic referred to includes freight, tourist, commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City, but has no choice at present.

(Said by a senior City Council official in 2013)

Emphasis added by me.

Yet another ingredient in the snake oil is the claim that the long-sought road is the only feasible solution. That notion has already been dismissed by the engineer leading the N6 Galway City Transport project:

Addressing councillors, Project Manager for Arup Consulting Engineers, Eileen McCarthy explained that the rights of residents had been considered and said that when choosing the routes, engineers had, where possible, sought out the gaps between residential areas.

However, she said that any variation on the Galway City Outer Bypass route would be doomed to failure as it had been proven that there were alternatives. Pursuing another outer bypass along a similar route would fail and “waste another €14 million”, she said.

In addition, Ms McCarthy pointed out that just 5 per cent of commuters along the proposed route would travel the entirety of the journey, while 58 per cent of trips across the River Corrib were entirely within Galway City.

This, she said, meant that an outer bypass was not the solution to Galway’s traffic woes.

http://galwayindependent.com/20150211/news/road-to-war-S50711.html

Is that not clear?

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

One a bypass is sorted, then they can turn their attention to public transport solutions to alleviate issues within the city itself.

This keeps showing up like a bad penny.

It's suspect for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's really just a form of Trickle Down Economics. It's based on a Car is King ideology, and on an expectation that the monarch of the roads must be catered for first, and that the rest can make do with the scraps that fall from the king's table.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Absolutely no public transport improvements can be achieved in Galway until the bypass is built. Through traffic HAS to be removed before road space can be freed up for bus lanes, cycle lanes, or god help us, tram lines.

The bypass, ironically, will be the biggest boost to public transport overall in Galway. It wont SOLVE the traffic problem, granted, but it will remove enough of it to make public transport viable.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Build the bypass and see what we can do with the alt.greeny sh1te after the bypass is buiilt. There should be road space for buses and trams and bicycles then. For now there ain't in Galway. Way it is.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The Outer Bypass would divert most through traffic away from the city, thereby freeing up existing road space for public transport use particularly during peak hours.

The claim, of course, is that the scraps will be of a fine quality. Unfortunately it's a claim that is not really credible, because it makes no attempt to elucidate how this will be achieved. I have asked again and again for an explanation, but no answer has been forthcoming from any source (whether on Boards or in official circles).

Are the car commuters in this forum really claiming that, once a bypass is built and the city's roads are supposedly free-flowing, they are personally going to switch to public transport, cycling or walking? Are you actually saying that? Really? Because if so, I don't believe you. Sorry.

Or is it in fact the case, as I suspect, that it's really just an aspiration that other people will switch to public transport, once car commuting is free-flowing again? If so, what would persuade those other car owners to do that? I wish someone would explain that scenario to me. Any takers?

What also needs to be explained is how the infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking is going to be created as soon as a bypass is opened. Because that is what will need to be done in order to ensure that the freed-up road space is not instantly taken up by cars.

We have already been told repeatedly, in this thread and others, that the private car is a "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible form of transport". To use freely available road space (and parking space) anywhere in the city all you have to do is walk out your front door, hop into your car and drive.

We are also being told that infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking cannot -- indeed must not -- be provided until car commuters have been catered for first, as a matter of urgent priority.

So is it really being claimed that, once the roads have supposedly been cleared of traffic by a bypass, motorists are going to leave their nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible cars at home and wait until the necessary infrastructure is provided?

Or is the belief/expectation that the infrastructure will be made available instantly? How is either scenario possible?

These are not rhetorical questions, by the way. I'm genuinely interested in motorists' explanations for how the post-bypass public transport/cycling/walking utopia will materialise.

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But we do appear to have run out of options for places to put roads.

I think you may be right. My impression is that there is a massive groundswell of opinion against the Rainbow Routes. Even if there is a huge NIMBY element which will reject one or two routes and accept four or five others, there may not be a sufficient number in favour of any one route.

Then there's the likelihood of appeals, court cases etc, possibly all the way to Europe again, which would postpone a transport solution for years.

My gut instinct is that we are heading for (a) general rejection of the Rainbow Routes, (b) confirmation that the old bypass plan cannot be resurrected, and (c) an overall solution that may involve extensive modification of road infrastructure but which will of necessity include integrated Transportation Demand Management measures of various kinds.

Deleted User wrote: »

To quote you, have you any evidence to back up that statement.

Plenty of cyclists, walkers and public transport users would also welcome a bypass

What I was referring to was the TD's statement that "the need for a City Bypass is understood and supported by the vast majority of the people in Galway City and County."

I don't share that understanding, primarily because what many people are quite clearly referring to, on Boards and elsewhere, is not a bypass but a ring-road for car commuters.

What is the evidence that "plenty of cyclists, walkers and public transport users would also welcome a bypass"?

As a pedestrian, cyclist and occasional bus user I'd love to be able to welcome a bypass. It's just that I'm not sure that's what is on offer, and that it will deliver what some people are promising. I'm now more hopeful about the N6GCTP though.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How many motorists in Loughrea and Moate are using the M6 to commute from one end of the town to another?

Why does it really matter if it's a bypass or a ring road. In reality it will be both and rightly so. People who want to totally bypass the city can and those who want to get of at different points nearer there destination can. It takes the cars out of the city that want to bypass completely and also takes the cars that want to go say 3/4 of the way across the city out of the first 3/4 of the city easing traffic those needing to get around that part of the city.

Of course people are not using the M6 to get from one end of moate or loughrea to the other, they are small towns and it would make no sense to go all the way out and back from the M6. Galway is far far bigger so it makes a lot of sense to have a route around part or all of the city.

On the other hand moate or loughrea are now much less congested places with 100% of the thanks going to the M6 routing cars around the towns.

I really think you have no idea at all how or what is needed in galway all you care about is your hatred of cars and making things awkward for motorists is your only goal.

Iwannahurl

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

Why does it really matter if it's a bypass or a ring road. In reality it will be both and rightly so.

...

Of course people are not using the M6 to get from one end of moate or loughrea to the other, they are small towns and it would make no sense to go all the way out and back from the M6. Galway is far far bigger so it makes a lot of sense to have a route around part or all of the city.

On the other hand moate or loughrea are now much less congested places with 100% of the thanks going to the M6 routing cars around the towns.

I really think you have no idea at all how or what is needed in galway all you care about is your hatred of cars and making things awkward for motorists is your only goal.

Obviously I don't hate cars absolutely or else I wouldn't own one.

It's about 13 km at most from residential areas on the west side of the city to areas zoned industrial in the east.

To put that in perspective, it takes about 45 minutes by bike, yet we have motorists complaining that they are spending "hours" in their comfy cars to traverse the city.

It's not a huge distance by any standards, and logistically it should be fairly straightforward to provide a public transport service in a land area of approximately 30 square kilometres (there's 50 sq km enclosed by the city boundary, but not all of it is developed).

It matters a lot whether it's a true bypass or a €500-750 million road expansion project to facilitate car commuters to drive at most 13 km across a small city on the western edge of Europe. I've already outlined the reasons why, and I'm still waiting for rational evidence-based answers.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Obviously I don't hate cars absolutely or else I wouldn't own one.

It's about 13 km at most from residential areas on the west side of the city to areas zoned industrial in the east.

To put that in perspective, it takes about 45 minutes by bike, yet we have motorists complaining that they are spending "hours" in their comfy cars to traverse the city.

It's not a huge distance by any standards, and logistically it should be fairly straightforward to provide a public transport service in a land area of approximately 30 square kilometres (there's 50 sq km enclosed by the city boundary, but not all of it is developed).

It matters a lot whether it's a true bypass or a €500-750 million road expansion project to facilitate car commuters to drive at most 13 km across a small city on the western edge of Europe. I've already outlined the reasons why, and I'm still waiting for rational evidence-based answers.

You seem to see everything from your kitchen window. People travel from Clifden and carraroe to work on the east side of the city. Just cause you can do it on your bike every now and then doesn't mean its practical for the rest of us. Chances are you don't even work on that side of the city. But as long as your OK there's no need for it!

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

You seem to see everything from your kitchen window. People travel from Clifden and carraroe to work on the east side of the city. Just cause you can do it on your bike every now and then doesn't mean its practical for the rest of us. Chances are you don't even work on that side of the city. But as long as your OK there's no need for it!

I used to commute cross-town, mainly by bike but sometimes combining it with bus.

It has been pointed out repeatedly that just 5% of traffic on a bypass would be through traffic and that a substantial majority of trips are intra-city only:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Addressing councillors, Project Manager for Arup Consulting Engineers, Eileen McCarthy ... pointed out that just 5 per cent of commuters along the proposed route would travel the entirety of the journey, while 58 per cent of trips across the River Corrib were entirely within Galway City.

This, she said, meant that an outer bypass was not the solution to Galway’s traffic woes.

http://galwayindependent.com/20150211/news/road-to-war-S50711.html

Is that not clear?

Why are bypass enthusiasts ignoring what the N6GCTP project manager is saying?

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Obviously I don't hate cars absolutely or else I wouldn't own one.

It's about 13 km at most from residential areas on the west side of the city to areas zoned industrial in the east.

To put that in perspective, it takes about 45 minutes by bike, yet we have motorists complaining that they are spending "hours" in their comfy cars to traverse the city.

It's not a huge distance by any standards, and logistically it should be fairly straightforward to provide a public transport service in a land area of approximately 30 square kilometres (there's 50 sq km enclosed by the city boundary, but not all of it is developed).

It matters a lot whether it's a true bypass or a €500-750 million road expansion project to facilitate car commuters to drive at most 13 km across a small city on the western edge of Europe. I've already outlined the reasons why, and I'm still waiting for rational evidence-based answers.

Just because you would be willing to cycle 13km (which I would consider a totally impractical distance to cycle daily for a commute, personally 2 or 3km is about as far as I'd consider cycling on a regular basis) does not mean the majority are and sorry but we need to cater for what the majority of people want not the hardship a few are willing to put themselves through in order to avoid driving.

Iwannahurl

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

Just because you would be willing to cycle 13km (which I would consider a totally impractical distance to cycle daily for a commute, personally 2 or 3km is about as far as I'd consider cycling on a regular basis) does not mean the majority are and sorry but we need to cater for what the majority of people want not the hardship a few are willing to put themselves through in order to avoid driving.

My reference to a 45 minute cycle (I'm slow, apparently!) was intended to point out that the distances involved are not huge. A €500-750 million "bypass" therefore looks like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I went on to emphasise public transport, and I again asked how a ring-road for car commuters will help in that regard. You've been ignoring that question. Of course, you're one of the few, more candid proponents of a "bypass" who are willing to admit what such road expansion plans and really for and would really achieve.