Worst British War Criminal In Irish History

AOMURCHU

Was reading threads about cromwell and was wondering if he really was the worst visitor we ever had from fair britannia.

McArmalite

AOMURCHU wrote: »

Was reading threads about cromwell and was wondering if he really was the worst visitor we ever had from fair britannia.

Churchill would have to be included. This is the ' hero ' who defended the use of poisionious gas against the Kurds in Iraq. Churchill, an ardent imperialist and racist, sanctioned use of burning mustard gas on `primitive tribesmen’ but not on white troops, " I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes "

He was also behind the fire bombing of Dresden. From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees, mainly women, children and old men fleeing the invading Russian Army, some 80 miles away, were murdered when Germany's defeat was beyond doubt two months before the end of the Second World War. These were even more deaths than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki together.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Churchill would have to be included. This is the ' hero ' who defended the use of poisionious gas against the Kurds in Iraq. Churchill, an ardent imperialist and racist, sanctioned use of burning mustard gas on `primitive tribesmen’ but not on white troops, " I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes "

He was also behind the fire bombing of Dresden. From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees, mainly women, children and old men fleeing the invading Russian Army, some 80 miles away, were murdered when Germany's defeat was beyond doubt two months before the end of the Second World War. These were even more deaths than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki together.

all that happened in Ireland did it?

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

all that happened in Ireland did it?

True enough Fred, I should have only posted regarding Irish history. I suppose it would have to be Cromwell.

MichealOR

Maggie Thatcher LOL

Snickers Man

Martin Johnson. No contest.

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote: »

Martin Johnson. No contest.

well, if you believe in Karma....

ilkhanid

"From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees..."
Exaggerated figures. Most of the literature I have see put deaths in the 35 000-at low end-to 125 000-at high end bracket. Not that that was'nt a terrible toll, but...

Fratton Fred

ilkhanid wrote: »

"From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees..."
Exaggerated figures. Most of the literature I have see put deaths in the 35 000-at low end-to 125 000-at high end bracket. Not that that was'nt a terrible toll, but...

it wasn't mustard gas, it was tear gas and it was never used, only proposed. but lets not let a small fact like that get in the way

McArmalite

ilkhanid wrote: »

"From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees..."
Exaggerated figures. Most of the literature I have see put deaths in the 35 000-at low end-to 125 000-at high end bracket. Not that that was'nt a terrible toll, but...

Well since your accusing me of " Exaggerated figures. " just put - 150,000 250,000 dresden refugees - into Google and you'll see the numerous sites quoting this number, including this one
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40596.html

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Well since your accusing me of " Exaggerated figures. " just put - 150,000 250,000 dresden refugees - into Google and you'll see the numerous sites quoting this number, including this one
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40596.html

indymedia, the well known oracle of truth and righteousness

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

indymedia, the well known oracle of truth and righteousness

Yes, and if I had quoted Wiki, Micheal Moore, Noam Chomsky or anyone else - you'd be saying the same :rolleyes:

ilkhanid

I prefer to take my figures from the historical literature rather than from controversialists and websites.

ChocolateSauce

I would argue that Cromwell cannot be a war criminal because the notion of war crimes didn't come to be until recently. Back then it was common practice throughout the world to raze towns and kill non-combatants.

ilkhanid

" just put - 150,000 250,000 dresden refugees - into Google and you'll see the numerous sites quoting this number, including this one..."

You will see figures for 200 000+ refugees in Dresden at the time of the bombing. But historians-including German ones-have settled on figures for dead that range between 25 000 and 40 000.

MarchDub

McArmalite wrote: »

True enough Fred, I should have only posted regarding Irish history. I suppose it would have to be Cromwell.

McArmalite you are not far off the mark at all - Churchill was responsible for sending in the Black and Tans into Ireland. They were his brainchild and Lloyd George agreed to it.

Black and Tan destruction of many Irish towns and murderous brutality to innocent people can be compared - in Europe in the twentieth century - to the Nazis' kristallnacht. The major difference being that Churchill's murder squads operated in Ireland for years and not days.

brianthebard

McArmalite wrote: »

Well since your accusing me of " Exaggerated figures. " just put - 150,000 250,000 dresden refugees - into Google and you'll see the numerous sites quoting this number, including this one
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40596.html

This has been covered before, those figures were made up by well known holocaust denier David Irving.

Fratton Fred

I guess the Germans probably know best

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,581992,00.html

Drawing on archival sources, many never previously consulted, on burial records and scientific findings -- including street-by-street archaeological investigations -- plus hundreds of eye-witness reports, the “Dresden Commission of Historians for the Ascertainment of the Number of Victims of the Air Raids on the City of Dresden on 13/14 February 1945” has provisionally estimated the likely death-toll at around 18,000 and definitely no more than 25,000.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

Black and Tan destruction of many Irish towns and murderous brutality to innocent people can be compared - in Europe in the twentieth century - to the Nazis' kristallnacht. The major difference being that Churchill's murder squads operated in Ireland for years and not days.

no it can't, that is rediculous.

The Irish people never in a million years went through what the Jews went through under the Nazis.

ChocolateSauce

MarchDub wrote: »

McArmalite you are not far off the mark at all - Churchill was responsible for sending in the Black and Tans into Ireland. They were his brainchild and Lloyd George agreed to it.

Black and Tan destruction of many Irish towns and murderous brutality to innocent people can be compared - in Europe in the twentieth century - to the Nazis' kristallnacht. The major difference being that Churchill's murder squads operated in Ireland for years and not days.

Utterly OTT statement, unsupported by fact.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no it can't, that is rediculous.

Marchdub was comparing kristallnacht to the actions of the Tans throughtout Ireland, the state approved destuction and looting of homes and businesses.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish people never in a million years went through what the Jews went through under the Nazis.

Ignore it, he's just trying to stir it up because he's got the hump over my post no #2 about his great ' hero ' the war criminal winston churchill

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Marchdub was comparing kristallnacht to the actions of the Tans throughtout Ireland, the state approved destuction and looting of homes and businesses.


Ignore it, he's just trying to stir it up because he's got the hump over my post no #2 about his great ' hero ' the war criminal winston churchill

to be honest, I and most of the other posters on here are used to your over the top ****e by now so no, it doesn't bother me, but thanks for your concern.

MarchDub

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Utterly OTT statement, unsupported by fact.

I beg your pardon - you are totally incorrect in this. This is now a well accepted historical fact. Churchill - as British Secretary of State for War - was the "brain" behind the Black and Tans and Lloyd George agreed with the idea.


You can read this in any researched history book - it even has a special scene in the RTE docudrama "The Treaty" . Look at Tim Pat Coogan's reference to this in his "Michael Collins" and also "In Search of Ireland's Heroes" by McCaffrey for another.

An original source is in the Churchill Archives Centre.

See ref also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19597.htm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irelands-war-of-independence-the-chilling-story-of-the-black-and-tans-475005.html

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

to be honest, I and most of the other posters on here are used to your over the top ****e by now so no, it doesn't bother me, but thanks for your concern.

Frattan - I think you are badly misreading McArmalite's post. Read it slowly again - he is not referring to me as having Churchill as a "hero". I think it is you he is suggesting is "stirring it up".

Tricky language English -

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

Frattan - I think you are badly misreading McArmalite's post. Read it slowly again - he is not referring to me as having Churchill will as a "hero". I think it is you he is suggesting is "stirring it up".

Tricky language English -

I know exactly what he is saying, he posts something that is deliberately meant to stri things up, then makes accusations against me.

Same old **** from this joker I'm afraid.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

I beg your pardon - you are totally incorrect in this. This is now a well accepted historical fact. Churchill - as British Secretary of State for War - was the "brain" behind the Black and Tans and Lloyd George agreed with the idea.


You can read this in any researched history book - it even has a special scene in the RTE docudrama "The Treaty" . Look at Tim Pat Coogan's reference to this in his "Michael Collins" and also "In Search of Ireland's Heroes" by McCaffrey for another.

An original source is in the Churchill Archives Centre.

See ref also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19597.htm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irelands-war-of-independence-the-chilling-story-of-the-black-and-tans-475005.html

I can't speak for chocolatesauce, but my reasoning is this.

kristallnacht was a deliberate policy meant to victimise Jews, it was a coordinated planned action, in which a lot of civilians participated, pointing out jews and dragging them out into the street.

The Black and Tans were not meant to be anywhere near that, they were meant to backup the RIC. over a period of time they turned into a bunch of lawless thugs who carried out a lot of appaling actions, eventuallythe tactics used by the Black and Tans shocked the British Public so much, pressure was put on the government to withdraw them. This was also the beginning of the end of British rule in Ireland

kristallnacht had the support of the German people and was only the beginning for the Jews in Germany.

I know it was Churchill (Along with others) who came up with the original idea.

wolfpawnat

I would say worst Brit to ever set foot in Ireland, let alone act like a w*nker towards us is definately Cromwell! "Warts and all" Yes he wasnt a war criminal but damn it killing how many irish and justifying with his religion definately get him on my most hated list.

pierrot

Bobby Sands, ahem

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can't speak for chocolatesauce, but my reasoning is this.

kristallnacht was a deliberate policy meant to victimise Jews, it was a coordinated planned action, in which a lot of civilians participated, pointing out jews and dragging them out into the street.

The Black and Tans were not meant to be anywhere near that, they were meant to backup the RIC. over a period of time they turned into a bunch of lawless thugs who carried out a lot of appaling actions, eventuallythe tactics used by the Black and Tans shocked the British Public so much, pressure was put on the government to withdraw them. This was also the beginning of the end of British rule in Ireland

kristallnacht had the support of the German people and was only the beginning for the Jews in Germany.

I know it was Churchill (Along with others) who came up with the original idea.

Actually, [to give credit properly] it was Tim Pat Coogan who first came up with the comparison with Kristallnacht - in singularly looking at what the outcome was for civilian life under the murderous Black and Tan policy. I do think that it is a fair comparison in that way. The purpose of British policy at that time was to break the newly set up Dail [declared illegal by Lloyd George] , the Irish court system and the Irish economy. Creameries were a main target and Irish civilians were considered to be legitimate targets.

But there was certainly a nefarious aspect to the planning and the Tans were to do what the army had failed to do i.e the above mentioned destruction to the Irish economy and embryonic political frame vis a vis the declared "illegal" Dail Eireann.

Churchill stated that something more than "perfunctory lip service" was needed to answer the Irish uprising and virtual establishment of a new political system outside of the UK control - the Dail and court system were taking hold and had Irish public support. That the Tans got so out of control is not surprising and British leadership has to be held responsible for this. War crimes are war crimes and a defence that events got out of the control of those who initiated the policy is not acceptable. There was enough time to reverse the policy but nothing was done.

ejmaztec

Saint Patrick did more damage in Ireland than any of his countrymen put together. He should have stayed where he was and left Ireland to enjoy its Paganism. The British would have kept well away, not wishing to find themselves as offerings to a choice of different gods. At least then we wouldn't have had to put up with all the crap spread across this forum, and a few others, and any curious outsiders wouldn't think that they had found themselves peering into a nest of bigots.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can't speak for chocolatesauce, but my reasoning is this.

kristallnacht was a deliberate policy meant to victimise Jews, it was a coordinated planned action, in which a lot of civilians participated, pointing out jews and dragging them out into the street.

The thuggery of the Tans, Auxiliary regiment and reguliar british army and unionist mobs " was a deliberate policy meant to victimise " Irish nationalists.

" It was a coordinated planned action, in which a lot of " unionist civilians participated, pointing out nationalists and dragging them out into the street. The violence against nationalists in Belfast alone, which continued long after the truce in the rest of the country, killed around 450 people, mostly civilians.