Where humans ever perfect?

Goduznt Xzst

I'm really posing this question to the Christians that accept evolution. At what point in our evolution did humans become perfect? Where we ever perfect?

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I'm really posing this question to the Christians that accept evolution. At what point in our evolution did humans become perfect? Where we ever perfect?

I don't believe we ever were perfect. If we have evolved and are evolving, how could we ever have been perfect? Isn't evolution supposed to make things better/fitter etc?

BTW, you see to have a funny habit of spelling 'were' with a h

Goduznt Xzst

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't believe we ever were perfect. If we have evolved and are evolving, how could we ever have been perfect? Isn't evolution supposed to make things better/fitter etc?

Did Adam and Eve ever exist?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't believe we ever were perfect. If we have evolved and are evolving, how could we ever have been perfect? Isn't evolution supposed to make things better/fitter etc?

BTW, you see to have a funny habit of spelling 'were' with a h

Genetic fitness doesn't necessarily equate to fitness. Our ancestors may have been better at dealing with a warmer climate where we might struggle. You don't have to look back in time just look at different people and cultures: evolution in motion
Perfection is quite a human construct and very subjective. The Nazis thought the nordic races were perfect doesn't stop the Jamaicans/Africans kicking our asses in athletics.

CerebralCortex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Did Adam and Eve ever exist?

No.

Goduznt Xzst

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No.

:rolleyes: I'm kinda looking for the Christians here to expand on their understanding of Genesis and how evolution fits into it so that I can better understand their stance. I already know what the Atheist response to my questions will be

leaba

kelly1 wrote: »

Isn't evolution supposed to make things better/fitter etc?

I think the OP should read up on what the theory of evolution actually means. This sentence exhibits a common but fundamentally flawed understanding.

AtomicHorror

leaba wrote: »

I think the OP should read up on what the theory of evolution actually means. This sentence exhibits a common but fundamentally flawed understanding.

Kelly1 is not the OP. He's got his understanding of evolution upside down, but it's not as if he's rejecting the concept.

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Did Adam and Eve ever exist?

I think Adam and Eve can be understood in two possible ways.

1. Humans evolved physically from apes but God created in two particular humans (A&E) the first spiritual souls.

2. God created A&E from existing matter and infused in them a soul.

In both of these scenarios, other primates with lesser intelligence, reason etc could have pre-existed. It was man's spirit which gave humans their unique and superior intelligence, ability to reason, creativity, language etc.

I'm as yet undecided which scenario is more likely.

Here's on argument for the 2nd position (which I've yet to read).

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_011.htm

kelly1

leaba wrote: »

I think the OP should read up on what the theory of evolution actually means. This sentence exhibits a common but fundamentally flawed understanding.

Isn't evolution the product of random mutation combined with natural selection making organisms better adapted for survival?

leaba

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Kelly1 is not the OP. He's got his understanding of evolution upside down, but it's not as if he's rejecting the concept.

Yes I know, and yes I'm a little impressed.

Fanny Cradock

Let's not have another thread on evolution. OK?

Aside from that, I'd subscribe to theistic evolution. As for the main topic of corporeal perfection, this is something that I would think that we never achieved, nor ever will.

CDfm

Man is created in Gods image. Well thats a compliment.

kelly1

leaba wrote: »

Yes I know, and yes I'm a little impressed.

Impressed that I accept evolution as plausible? In my book there can be no contradiction between science and religion.

leaba

kelly1 wrote: »

Isn't evolution the product of random mutation combined with natural selection making organisms better adapted for survival?

Yes indeed, but in a particular environment. It's ongoing, to talk of perfection implies a goal.

AtomicHorror

kelly1 wrote: »

Isn't evolution the product of random mutation combined with natural selection making organisms better adapted for survival?

Yep, however the criteria for "fitness" is dynamic. So we're not moving towards any particular absolute fitness, but rather constantly tending towards fitness within a changing environment. Thus there's no "perfection" to attain and how close we come to optimum fitness is dependant only on how long a given set of selective pressures (say environment) persists.

leaba

kelly1 wrote: »

Impressed that I accept evolution as plausible? In my book there can be no contradiction between science and religion.

I thought you interpret the bible literally and subscribed to the whole Adam and Eve thing. I didn't realise that you accepted evolutionary theory.

Fanny Cradock

In my experience many Christians do accept it. In fact, I believe that both Catholicism and Anglicanism (to mention a couple of denominations) accept evolution.

leaba

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

In my experience many Christians do accept it. In fact, I believe that both Catholicism and Anglicanism (to mention a couple of denominations) accept evolution.

Agreed, I just didn't think Kelly1 was one of them.

kelly1

leaba wrote: »

I thought you interpret the bible literally and subscribed to the whole Adam and Eve thing. I didn't realise that you accepted evolutionary theory.

I'm Catholic, not fundamentalist.

I believe Adam and Eve were the first humans to have created within them a soul, regardless of how their bodies were formed.

AtomicHorror

leaba wrote: »

I thought you interpret the bible literally and subscribed to the whole Adam and Eve thing.

No offence leaba but you were pretty quick to jump on kelly for not knowing his subject- yet you've made a fairly unreasonable assumption there. Outside of the states, the literalist take on Genesis doesn't have very wide support amongst Christians, or at least is not of real interest to them. I gather that the more common take on it (if it's addressed at all) is kelly's one or something similar, that Adam and Eve were the first humans with souls.

leaba

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No offence leaba but you were pretty quick to jump on kelly for not knowing his subject- yet you've made a fairly unreasonable assumption there. Outside of the states, the literalist take on Genesis doesn't have very wide support amongst Christians, or at least is not of real interest to them. I gather that the more common take on it (if it's addressed at all) is kelly's one or something similar, that Adam and Eve were the first humans with souls.

No offence taken at all! The OP asked at what point in evolution humans became perfect. I thought that the way the question was worded indicated a misunderstanding. I also thought Kelly1's answer indicated the same misunderstanding.

It wasn't meant as any kind of personal attack on Kelly1. I did however subsequently make an unreasonable assumption about Kelly1's beliefs which was probably based on some posts of his that I've read. I apologise.

I wasn't commenting on what does or doesn't have widespread support amongst Christians.

AtomicHorror

leaba wrote: »

It wasn't meant as any kind of personal attack on Kelly1. I did however subsequently make an unreasonable assumption about Kelly1's beliefs which was probably based on some posts of his that I've read. I apologise.

Don't worry. Being wrong on the internet is common. However, having the stones to put your hands up and say "I was wrong" is really rare! :pac:

CDfm

How can you tell what optimum of a human is.You cant.

All you can say is that given all the conditions that there are you can only make a real time judgement as to the here and now.

So I would say know is the time.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Aside from that, I'd subscribe to theistic evolution. As for the main topic of corporeal perfection, this is something that I would think that we never achieved, nor ever will.

Where humans ever without original sin?

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Where humans ever without original sin?

Adam and Eve were without original sin before the fall. Jesus was certainly and I also believe His mother Mary was too.

Goduznt Xzst

kelly1 wrote: »

Adam and Eve were without original sin before the fall. Jesus was certainly and I also believe His mother Mary was too.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned would they have died?

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If Adam and Eve had not sinned would they have died?

Apparently not but then God knew that they were going to sin.

Goduznt Xzst

kelly1 wrote: »

Apparently not but then God knew that they were going to sin.

So what is the purpose of Gods creation of humans then? I mean what was Gods plan before we sinned?

So my understanding thus far, is that humans evolved from primates and then at some point God imbued them with a soul and without original sin, in the knowledge that Satan would tempt them (did he tempt them? Or is that also allegory) and that they would inevitably sin, thus causing the fall of man, at which point God put in place a plan where he would absolve our original sin that he destined us to by sacrificing himself to us as a human.

Correct me if any of that is in error.

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So what is the purpose of Gods creation of humans then? I mean what was Gods plan before we sinned?

So my understanding thus far, is that humans evolved from primates and then at some point God imbued them with a soul and without original sin, in the knowledge that Satan would tempt them (did he tempt them? Or is that also allegory) and that they would inevitably sin, thus causing the fall of man, at which point God put in place a plan where he would absolve our original sin that he destined us to by sacrificing himself to us as a human.

Correct me if any of that is in error.

I do not believe that it was inevitable for them to give in to temptation and sin.

AtomicHorror

PDN wrote: »

I do not believe that it was inevitable for them to give in to temptation and sin.

Does free-will render events unpredictable to God or is it your position that He sees all possibilities?