Best flyhalf in the world?

Remmy

Hi all.
I'm just curious as to peoples opinions on this.Would point scoring ability be considered more important than reading the game?Or would It be towards the most well rounded player with the most well rounded skillset?

I'm just wondering as to how people base their opinion on such a player to be considered the 'best' in their chosen field.

Remmy

themont85

-Goal Kicking
-Kicking from hand
-Ability to release the backs
-Decision making
-Vision
-Individual 'X' Factor i.e pace, step, hit the line

Dan Carter by a mile atm with Hernandez second. However there isn't a vintage set of fly halfs going at the moment.

cmcsoft

Ability to create and exploit space to add to the above. And I agree Dan Carter by a clear mile. There's a huge gap to the rest. I was a huge fan of Larkham as well but now it would have to be Carter

Stev_o

At the moment Matt Giteau, Carter is off form at the moment but jesus he being off form he can do things that no other players can do

themont85

Stev_o wrote: »

At the moment Matt Giteau, Carter is off form at the moment but jesus he being off form he can do things that no other players can do

I'll admit i haven't seen much of Giteau in the S14 this year and only a few times for the Aussies. I always thought he was an exceptional talent-able to release other players ect but I never was convinced by his kicking from hand or place kicking on a consistant basis, has it improved enough to be considered the best?

Sangre

I might have giteau ahead of carter at the moment. If not, Carter certainly isn't a country mile ahead of him.

Danger_Dave

Dan Carter is a fantastic player . However he plays for two teams that even when he players poor/average games they still win ! (New Zealand/Crusaders) . So his impact i believe as best flyhalf in the world has to be weighed against how good his own team his. Now in saying that i fully expect him to drive perpignan to semi-finals of the top 14.

Like Sangre i rate Matt giteau has the best fly half in the world at the moment. Giteau does not receive as much as a benefit from Austrailia that Dan Carter receives from New Zealand.

P.S Dan Carter on top for him is The best player in the world

Serenity Now!

Carter, Giteau and Hernandez by a country mile and THEN a huge gulf of ordinaries, comparitively speaking.

cmcsoft

Dan Carter
Int Caps 57
Points 860



Matt Giteau
Int Caps 60
Points 343

Carter is going through a bad patch at the moment and is till playing well by anyone elses standards. Okay he has always had excellent players around him but it doesn't take any shine off a player who has everything. Giteau is an excellent player but I still think Carter is way ahead on his day as his all round game is superb

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Carter, Giteau and Hernandez by a country mile and THEN a huge gulf of ordinaries, comparitively speaking.

Pienaar ordinary? Dear God sir, i think you'll find you're in error!:)

Serenity Now!

toomevara wrote: »

Pienaar ordinary? Dear God sir, i think you'll find you're in error!:)

I did say "comparatively speaking".
He's a much better halfback than a pivot. He's even a better fullback than a pivot!

twinytwo

i think Wilkinson at his peak.. granted nothing spectaclor with ball in hand but his overall commitment to the game is unmatched.. holds Wc and test point scoring record for a reason. And before we get the trolls in on this i dont care if ye think he is crap

RugbyFanatic

In my eyes the only outhalves deserving to be called world class are :

Dan Carter
Matt Giteau
Hernandez

Cipriani would be added to that list if he could just be consistant.

anonymous_joe

The obvious names would be Carter and Giteau. Hernandez is deserving of a mention as well, and, were he fit, WIlkinson would merit a mention as well.

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

i think Wilkinson at his peak.. granted nothing spectaclor with ball in hand but his overall commitment to the game is unmatched.. holds Wc and test point scoring record for a reason

Yes and that reason is that he was a very good place kicker.
His defence was awesome mind. As far as getting a backline away, nowhere near any of the three already mentioned. As far as running with ball in hand goes, not bad if a few metres out from line but nothing like the strides of Carter or pace of Giteau who break lines magnificently anywhere on the field.

Sangre

cmcsoft wrote: »

Dan Carter
Int Caps 57
Points 860



Matt Giteau
Int Caps 60
Points 343

Carter is going through a bad patch at the moment and is till playing well by anyone elses standards. Okay he has always had excellent players around him but it doesn't take any shine off a player who has everything. Giteau is an excellent player but I still think Carter is way ahead on his day as his all round game is superb

Points comparison is not really relevant considering Giteau spent so many years not at outhalf.

ThomasH

Dan Carter is always playing behind a good pack and that's one reason why he is consistent. Put the ABs pack under pressure and his performance is also average.

Matt Giteau hasn't been playing outhalf for too long and for me is a better centre than outhalf. Again his performances on outhalf isn't that consistent.

Ronan O'Gara is the type of player I would consider to be good because even behind a struggling pack on a good day he can be deadly. Put him behing the ABs or SA packs and he will perform consistent.

RugbyFanatic

ThomasH wrote: »

Ronan O'Gara is the type of player I would consider to be good because even behind a struggling pack on a good day he can be deadly.

I am just going to have to completely disagree with that outlandish statement.

ROG falls to pieces when the pack is struggling, I have never, ever seen ROG play 'deadly' or even decent behind a struggling pack.

ThomasH

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

I am just going to have to completely disagree with that outlandish statement.

ROG falls to pieces when the pack is struggling, I have never, ever seen ROG play 'deadly' or even decent behind a struggling pack.

Your welcome to disagree. I have seen ROG play well behind a good pack and well behind a bad pack.

I also did mention on a good day.

If you have never seen him play deadly or even decent go to youtube and watch the IrevsSA match of 2006. Also watch last year's game against Italy and then the last two matches against Eng in the 6N. That will give you some idea.

Crash

Meh, to be honest put most 10's in the world behind a struggling pack and they'll fail to perform, or look decidely out of sorts. O'Gara's not an exception there.

ThomasH

Going Forward wrote: »

Meh, to be honest put most 10's in the world behind a struggling pack and they'll fail to perform, or look decidely out of sorts. O'Gara's not an exception there.

Maybe with some flyhalfs but certainly Neil Jenkins, Michael Lynagh, Grant Fox, Naas Botha, johnny wilkinson etc were exceptions in that they could play behind struggling packs.

Crash

Oh yeah completely. I still remember being utterly in awe when i was younger watching Jenkins play. But they are completely the exception. The majority of 10's games will suffer if the pack isn't performing, because if they're not razor sharp with the speed of their kicking or passing, then they'll end up isolated very quickly. Its not a criticism of any player, just a fact of the game IMO. Unless you're one of the exceptional few who could deal with it effectively, you'll need a solid base to be able to perform at all up to standard.

Serenity Now!

ThomasH wrote: »

Maybe with some flyhalfs but certainly Neil Jenkins, Michael Lynagh, Grant Fox, Naas Botha, Johnny Wilkinson etc were exceptions in that they could play behind struggling packs.

Botha hardly got a chance to play against the best so his inclusion in your list there, is kind of strange.
When was Wilkinson playing well behind a weak pack?

ThomasH

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Botha hardly got a chance to play against the best so his inclusion in your list there, is kind of strange.
When was Wilkinson playing well behind a weak pack?

Botha played against British & Irish Lions 1980, Ireland & France 1981, New Zealand 1981, NZ Cavaliers in 1986. He was the highest points scorer for SA from 1970 to 2004.

He also played against NZ, Aus and France in 1992

Wilkinson was a big help that brought Eng to the 07 WC final. Before WC2003 he was very good young talented player when Eng were still rebuilding for their win in 03.

sm.org

cmcsoft wrote: »

Dan Carter
Int Caps 57
Points 860



Matt Giteau
Int Caps 60
Points 343

Carter is going through a bad patch at the moment and is till playing well by anyone elses standards. Okay he has always had excellent players around him but it doesn't take any shine off a player who has everything. Giteau is an excellent player but I still think Carter is way ahead on his day as his all round game is superb

Not a very telling stat considering Mortlock was taking a lot of the kicks up until this season. Since he's taken over full time he's averaging 87%.

Serenity Now!

ThomasH wrote: »

Botha played against British & Irish Lions 1980, Ireland & France 1981, New Zealand 1981, NZ Cavaliers in 1986. He was the highest points scorer for SA from 1970 to 2004

He didn't play enough games to be in your original list in my opinion and the rebel teams who toured Sth Africa were not the best choice players to those countries. Just those who would take the buck for going there.

I work with an ex-team mate at NT of his. Apparently his defence wasn't great. Great kicker for sure but not the complete pivot that some make him out to be.

Best no.10 I have ever seen play the game also had a short career. The great Mark Ella, who was then succeeded by the almighty Michael 'Noddy' Lynagh.

ThomasH

Serenity Now! wrote: »

He didn't play enough games to be in your original list in my opinion and the rebel teams who toured Sth Africa were not the best choice players to those countries. Just those who would take the buck for going there.

I work with an ex-team mate at NT of his. Apparently his defence wasn't great. Great kicker for sure but not the complete pivot that some make him out to be.

Best no.10 I have ever seen play the game also had a short career. The great Mark Ella, who was then succeeded by the almighty Michael 'Noddy' Lynagh.

Getting all technical on me about Botha huh? That's your opinion that he did not play enough, I disagree. There was only one rebel tour which was from NZ, the others were full strenght teams.

Botha's defence wasn't great but at the time it was acceptable as the rules allowed for much slower pace game. My original point was not if he could tackle or not I made the point that he can play and do well behind a weak pack. He could score points, kick well for territory, drop goals, keep ball in front of his forwards and read the game well even if his pack was weak.

Your mate might have known him but as a child we all watched Botha and he was a hero to us.

Just because he did not play that many intr matches does not mean that we have to pick a player who played for other int countries. He did well for SA in the domestic leagues and was the all time scorer before Percy.

Heres a clip of Botha on a good day - against the rebel NZ Cav.

handsomecake

daniel william carter.
conversation ended

handsomecake

sm.org wrote: »

Not a very telling stat considering Mortlock was taking a lot of the kicks up until this season. Since he's taken over full time he's averaging 87%.

that in itself is indicative of his ability. if he was the better kicker then he would be taking them,but he wasnt and hence mortlock took them.mortlock was taking them on merit

handsomecake

ThomasH wrote: »

Dan Carter is always playing behind a good pack and that's one reason why he is consistent. Put the ABs pack under pressure and his performance is also average.

Matt Giteau hasn't been playing outhalf for too long and for me is a better centre than outhalf. Again his performances on outhalf isn't that consistent.

Ronan O'Gara is the type of player I would consider to be good because even behind a struggling pack on a good day he can be deadly. Put him behing the ABs or SA packs and he will perform consistent.

one of the worst out halfs out of the recognised nations and the biggest charlatan in an international shirt.
cant tackle
cant make breaks
kicks way way too much

Timothy Bryce

ROG wouldn't even get a look in IMO - you could have the best pack in the world, with the best scrum half feeding him ball and he'd still struggle all day long. He doesn't stand deep enough, fails to come onto the ball at pace and create a good platform for the centres.

Carter would narrow pip Giteau because of MG's lack of place kicking ability.

DC on an off day is still pretty handy!

Dubliner28

Carter by a mile

dub_skav

I don't agree that an Outside half needs to be a place kicker and it follows then that point-scoring is not the be all.
Larkham was one of, if not the, best ever and he didn't kick the goals.

In my opinion the most important aspects of an out-half are an ability to make space to put people away and an ability to kick intelligently from hand.

Serenity Now!

dub_skav wrote: »

I don't agree that an Outside half needs to be a place kicker and it follows then that point-scoring is not the be all.
Larkham was one of, if not the, best ever and he didn't kick the goals.

In my opinion the most important aspects of an out-half are an ability to make space to put people away and an ability to kick intelligently from hand.

Yep, like a scrum-half in rugby league (see the great Joey Johns, for example).
Bernie Larkham was one of the best pivots ever indeed. Very deceptive runner, could kick a ball any way he wanted and was a pristine passer.
I'd say the top three most exciting and best pivots were all Wallabies (Ella, Lynagh and Larkham). Carter is in my view the best of the current crop with Giteau not far behind.

Munsterforever

ROG is GOD.

On a good day he is world beating, and aboslutley deadly. On a bad day however he can be absolutely shambolic. Hes only human, and like all of us he has bad days and good ones.

IMHO he could do with putting on alot more weight and muscle so that he doesn't get dusted off like he did during NZ. :P

ThomasH

I agree with Munsterforever.

ROG can have excellent days and then can have shambolic days. People forgot that during the 05/06 and maybe 07 AI he was very good. Also during the 06/07 6N he was very good and reliable and managed to score tries, kick at goals successfully, send backline away and in general play a good game. One bad WC (07) and now all of a sudden he is rubbish is absolute nonsense.

He doesn't stand deep enough, fails to come onto the ball at pace and create a good platform for the centres.

Timothy, not real sure how this is supposed to be a bad thing. With the modern game and new ELVs and faster games flyhalfs that stand deep will not be able to move their forwards forward unless they have a deadly boot. Look what happened to Cipriani against a newcomer flyhalf Pienaar, he stood too deep and twice got kicks charged down.

In my opinion good flyhalfs must stand close to the line and half excellent vision to chip, break, pass or to do whatever is necessary to move the pack forward.

RugbyFanatic

Munsterforever wrote: »

ROG is GOD.

On a good day he is world beating, and aboslutley deadly. On a bad day however he can be absolutely shambolic. Hes only human, and like all of us he has bad days and good ones.

IMHO he could do with putting on alot more weight and muscle so that he doesn't get dusted off like he did during NZ. :P

I simply cannot grasp how a player can be considered world class when he is as inconsistant as O'Gara.


I wouldn't even have ROG in the top 10 outhalves in the world right now

ThomasH

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

I simply cannot grasp how a player can be considered world class when he is as inconsistant as O'Gara.
I wouldn't even have ROG in the top 10 outhalves in the world right now

I fail to see the list of things he do on the pitch that is so wrong. Apart from Wilkinson, Carter, Giteau and Arg outhalf name me the other 6 world class outhalfs better than him.

Timothy Bryce

ThomasH wrote: »

I fail to see the list of things he do on the pitch that is so wrong. Apart from Wilkinson, Carter, Giteau and Arg outhalf name me the other 6 world class outhalfs better than him.

For starters...

Hernandez
Contepomi
James Hook
Michelak *tsk

Seriously though - his cronic inability to bring the centres in when playing for Ireland is criminal. Maybe the quality of the Munster centres are higher...who knows!?

ThomasH

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

For starters...

Hernandez
Contepomi
James Hook
Michelak *tsk

Seriously though - his cronic inability to bring the centres in when playing for Ireland is criminal. Maybe the quality of the Munster centres are higher...who knows!?

Ireland centres in BOD and GD are very good so that;s not an excuse. Have a look at some YouTube clips of ROG and you'll see he is not as bad as people think. As for getting his centres away, plenty of matches I've seen where he was able to get them over the advantage line.

Hernandez is good but world class...not so sure. One good WC does not put him in the same league as Carter.

Contepomi is a very good allrounder and might be good for Leinster but he is def not a WC outhalf.

James Hook again for me is a very good outhalf and maybe with more game time at flyhalf can become WC.

Michelak - I hear you. But he is not good behind a weak French team and is only good when the rest of his mates play well. Look at the opening WC game against Arg.

RugbyFanatic

ThomasH wrote: »

I fail to see the list of things he do on the pitch that is so wrong. Apart from Wilkinson, Carter, Giteau and Arg outhalf name me the other 6 world class outhalfs better than him.

Carter
Giteau
Hernandez
Wilkinson
Hook
Cipriani
Pienaar
Frederic Michalak
Contepomi
Nick Evans
Stephen Jones

I would rate all these better than ROG right now

twinytwo

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Carter
Giteau
Hernandez
Wilkinson
Hook
Cipriani
Pienaar
Frederic Michalak
Contepomi
Nick Evans
Stephen Jones

I would rate all these better than ROG right now

jones .. 50/50
Michalak.. not a chance maybe back in 03
Hook.. has to be the most over rated player ever
Contepomi... has a great atttacking game.... wouldnt say a wc flyhalf
Cipriani too inconsistant.. worse than rog in that respect
Wilkinson at his best was god
Hernandez... played a good WC and has a wicked kick.. have to wait and see
Giteau yes
Evans maybe
Pineer maybe

When O Gara plays good is prob 3rd in the world.. we have seen it numerous times when ireland have been playing bad he has stepped up to the plate and won the game with a kick or try.. no player is perfect.

twinytwo

ThomasH wrote: »

Ireland centres in BOD and GD are very good so that;s not an excuse. Have a look at some YouTube clips of ROG and you'll see he is not as bad as people think. As for getting his centres away, plenty of matches I've seen where he was able to get them over the advantage line.

Hernandez is good but world class...not so sure. One good WC does not put him in the same league as Carter.

Contepomi is a very good allrounder and might be good for Leinster but he is def not a WC outhalf.

James Hook again for me is a very good outhalf and maybe with more game time at flyhalf can become WC.

Michelak - I hear you. But he is not good behind a weak French team and is only good when the rest of his mates play well. Look at the opening WC game against Arg.

Before he came on against the AB's in the WC the commentators were going on about how he was past it etc etc ... on the pitch 5 seconds gets the ball and tears the AB defence a new one.. set up the match winning try.

ThomasH

twinytwo wrote: »

Before he came on against the AB's in the WC the commentators were going on about how he was past it etc etc ... on the pitch 5 seconds gets the ball and tears the AB defence a new one.. set up the match winning try.

You mean the forward pass :P

twinytwo

ThomasH wrote: »

You mean the forward pass :P

as i recall he turned 90 and lofted the ball to jouzion who was coming up behind him... maybe it was forward. Not that it matters now though

Serenity Now!

ThomasH wrote: »

With the modern game and new ELVs and faster games flyhalfs that stand deep will not be able to move their forwards forward unless they have a deadly boot. Look what happened to Cipriani against a newcomer flyhalf Pienaar, he stood too deep and twice got kicks charged down

???
What have the ELVs got to do with the kicking pocket exactly, Thomas?
Cipriani's halfback gave him shocking passes. Thats all.

ThomasH

Serenity Now! wrote: »

???
What have the ELVs got to do with the kicking pocket exactly, Thomas?
Cipriani's halfback gave him shocking passes. Thats all.

The fact that the game is played at much faster pace so your outhalf needs to be more of an attacking outhalf and stand flat to be able to break, chipkick, flat pass, etc. etc. Cipriani was miles away from his halfback (not the scrumhalfs issue but C) and took 4 steps before he kicked and Pienaar (only two games at outhalf) charged it down and scored. If Cipriani was closer to the line and his halfback the pass would have been better and even with a charge down it might have been recovered closer to the line. That's the difference between an average and WC outhalf under the new ELVs.

Serenity Now!

ThomasH wrote: »

The fact that the game is played at much faster pace so your outhalf needs to be more of an attacking outhalf and stand flat to be able to break, chipkick, flat pass, etc. etc. Cipriani was miles away from his halfback (not the scrumhalfs issue but C) and took 4 steps before he kicked and Pienaar (only two games at outhalf) charged it down and scored. If Cipriani was closer to the line and his halfback the pass would have been better and even with a charge down it might have been recovered closer to the line. That's the difference between an average and WC outhalf under the new ELVs.

What ELV(s) have caused this then?
And wouldn't the fact that Cipriani took four steps have more to do with his being charged down?

ThomasH

Serenity Now! wrote: »

What ELV(s) have caused this then?
And wouldn't the fact that Cipriani took four steps have more to do with his being charged down?

Extra space given to back-lines at scrum time.
The new scrum gives more attacking opportunities than the original scrum so it's easier to get over the gain-line for outhalfs.
It has opened the game up and allows for a more free-flowing style of play usually with a good general (outhalf) in charge.
Counter-attacking - with quick wingers.
Tactical kicking - try to corner your opposition until they have a bad kick or you get a turnover.

Serenity Now!

ThomasH wrote: »

Extra space given to back-lines at scrum time.
The new scrum gives more attacking opportunities than the original scrum so it's easier to get over the gain-line for outhalfs.
It has opened the game up and allows for a more free-flowing style of play usually with a good general (outhalf) in charge.
Counter-attacking - with quick wingers.
Tactical kicking - try to corner your opposition until they have a bad kick or you get a turnover.

Was it at a scrum? I don't recall it as being so. The 5m scrum line is also easier to defend against, by the way so it hasn't actually opened up anything.
The biggest effect in the game has been the reffing of the ruck and this, as we've said already, is not a law variation.

ThomasH

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Was it at a scrum? I don't recall it as being so. The 5m scrum line is also easier to defend against, by the way so it hasn't actually opened up anything.
The biggest effect in the game has been the reffing of the ruck and this, as we've said already, is not a law variation.

Yes. 5mtres back for defence which would allow your world class attacking flyhalf to stand flat and to call the shots. The 5m is not easier to defend if your backline (especially wc outhalf) is flat and quick hands or chips through defence, it makes it more difficult.
It was actually test in Ireland for the U20/U19 Interprovincial: Corner posts, scrum offside.

Reffing at the ruck was always a problem but has become a bigger issue thx to ELVs.