Animal soul?

Whispered

Animals play a large role in the spirituality of a lot of people & cultures. From animal guides, animal based superstision, shamanism, totems etc.

What is the general idea of what happens to an animal when they die. People like to think that they go to the same place as we do (wherever you may believe that to be) and for many people, they would prefer to be where their animal is than where other people are.

Is it niave to think that animals have an individual soul? Millions and millions of ants compared to a faithful old dog who is adored by and adores his master.

What do you think happens when your beloved pets die? How does this compare to your belief of what happens when a farm animal, wild animal or insect dies?

kelly1

helena.ryan wrote: »

Animals play a large role in the spirituality of a lot of people & cultures. From animal guides, animal based superstision, shamanism, totems etc.

What is the general idea of what happens to an animal when they die. People like to think that they go to the same place as we do (wherever you may believe that to be) and for many people, they would prefer to be where their animal is than where other people are.

Is it niave to think that animals have an individual soul? Millions and millions of ants compared to a faithful old dog who is adored by and adores his master.

What do you think happens when your beloved pets die? How does this compare to your belief of what happens when a farm animal, wild animal or insect dies?

Hello Helena, as a Christian, I believe only humans and angels have souls.

The thing is, where do you draw the line? Do bacteria/amoeba or spermatazoa (sp?) have souls? Why dogs and not greenflys etc?

hiorta

All life has a spiritual base, so all life survives physical death.
It appears that there are 'spheres' that are able to receive and nurture the life force that applies to their own environment.

Anyway, given the barbarism inflicted by some humans on other life forms, perhaps it is they who choose to avoid further contact with the human, self-styled superiors.

Nerin

Depends really,you can't really blanket term it. Some animals may have souls,some may have an energy that doesn't count as a soul but is like it. Its a complicated topic.

Whispered

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Helena, as a Christian, I believe only humans and angels have souls.

The thing is, where do you draw the line? Do bacteria/amoeba or spermatazoa (sp?) have souls? Why dogs and not greenflys etc?

Yes that is what I was wondering - see I don't see why an evil horrible person would have a soul when an animal who gave more in its life does not. People who are very close to their pet - well it just would not be heaven for them without their closest friend would it?

hiorta wrote: »

All life has a spiritual base, so all life survives physical death.
It appears that there are 'spheres' that are able to receive and nurture the life force that applies to their own environment.

Anyway, given the barbarism inflicted by some humans on other life forms, perhaps it is they who choose to avoid further contact with the human, self-styled superiors.

and who could blame them. This would be along the lines of my belief I suppose, but maybe that is just wishful thinking. Heavens just not heaven without animals.

Nerin wrote: »

Depends really,you can't really blanket term it. Some animals may have souls,some may have an energy that doesn't count as a soul but is like it. Its a complicated topic.

But what does it depend on?

Nerin

Well,i'd say it depends largely on different faiths for starters.
As kelly pointed out,he sees things such and such a way,probably drawing largely from christianitys views as his own. Whereas others would see animals in a different light depending on their faith,upbringing,or even just how they look at the world. Although i suppose faith plays the biggest part.

Whispered

Oh right, you mean it depends on the faith. I thought you meant it depends on the animal

Well in paganism, what happens? Or more to the point, what do you believe personally (not just directed at Nerin BTW, anybody who cares to answer)

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

Oh right, you mean it depends on the faith. I thought you meant it depends on the animal

Well in paganism, what happens? Or more to the point, what do you believe personally (not just directed at Nerin BTW, anybody who cares to answer)

In what context,i'm complicated on the grounds that i've looked into many faiths,decided they didn't make sense to me,and became classified as a sort of animist,pagans are a bit hard to ask generally how they see things,because theres so many bloody types :P

Joe1919

The great medieval Irish philosopher Eriugena believed that all creatures, sinners and saints, and animals, as part of Gods creation, return to him in the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Scotus_Eriugena
So everyone enjoys paradise in the end. Why not? If God is all powerful and all loving, he must surely do this.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

In what context,i'm complicated on the grounds that i've looked into many faiths,decided they didn't make sense to me,and became classified as a sort of animist,pagans are a bit hard to ask generally how they see things,because theres so many bloody types :P

Ok well leave all ideas of organised faith out of the equation. What do you, as an individual, forgetting what certain faiths or religions tell you, believe happens to our pets when they die, and how does that compare to what you believe happens to other animals, livestock etc.

I don't have a religion, I suppose I could say I'm a spiritualist. I would be as sure of the existence of animal souls as I would be of the existence of human souls. But of course that brings up the question, as Noel said above, where is the line drawn. How can I say that my dog or cats has a soul, but an insect does not? I'm finding it hard to reconcile my beliefs

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

Ok well leave all ideas of organised faith out of the equation. What do you, as an individual, forgetting what certain faiths or religions tell you, believe happens to our pets when they die, and how does that compare to what you believe happens to other animals, livestock etc.

I don't have a religion, I suppose I could say I'm a spiritualist. I would be as sure of the existence of animal souls as I would be of the existence of human souls. But of course that brings up the question, as Noel said above, where is the line drawn. How can I say that my dog or cats has a soul, but an insect does not? I'm finding it hard to reconcile my beliefs

Well,i'd believe that yes,many animals have souls. Those that don't would have a spiritual energy,something unique. It depends what you see as a soul. If you believe in reincarnation,i'd say in my opinion animals could be reincarnated,if you believe in an afterlife like heaven,that they'd go there. Of course,we'd need to define what a soul is.
(My opinions extend to other things like plants and stuff. Also,they're just ideas or beliefs,i wouldn't state that its the most logical,or the hidden truth or anything. Probably wrong,but side by side with other beliefs,it makes sense to me.)

kelly1

helena.ryan wrote: »

Yes that is what I was wondering - see I don't see why an evil horrible person would have a soul when an animal who gave more in its life does not. People who are very close to their pet - well it just would not be heaven for them without their closest friend would it?

With God, there will be no need for pets because God will be the complete fulfilment of all our (good) desires.

BTW, I should correct my original response by saying that all living things have a soul but only humans have immortal souls because only human souls are spiritual and animals souls presumably are some kind of "life-force" like Chi or prana etc. Animal/plant souls die unlike human souls.

I think it is the soul which is life, not the beating of the heart or brain activity etc. The soul animates the human/animal/insect/bacterium.

Nevyn

I would say most animals have spirits/lifeforce which leaves when they die but I would say a few have souls as I don't think I can in all fairness rule out coming back as an animal for a turn on the wheel.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

Well,i'd believe that yes,many animals have souls. Those that don't would have a spiritual energy,something unique. It depends what you see as a soul. If you believe in reincarnation,i'd say in my opinion animals could be reincarnated,if you believe in an afterlife like heaven,that they'd go there. Of course,we'd need to define what a soul is.
(My opinions extend to other things like plants and stuff. Also,they're just ideas or beliefs,i wouldn't state that its the most logical,or the hidden truth or anything. Probably wrong,but side by side with other beliefs,it makes sense to me.)

Yes different ideas of what a soul is could complicate the question further. In my experience, which is admitedly very limited, animal energy feels very similar to human energy, just a bit lighter in a "champagne" sort of way.

kelly1 wrote: »

With God, there will be no need for pets because God will be the complete fulfilment of all our (good) desires.

BTW, I should correct my original response by saying that all living things have a soul but only humans have immortal souls because only human souls are spiritual and animals souls presumably are some kind of "life-force" like Chi or prana etc. Animal/plant souls die unlike human souls.

I think it is the soul which is life, not the beating of the heart or brain activity etc. The soul animates the human/animal/insect/bacterium.

I like the idea that the soul animates the body. Your sentence about a human having a spiritual soul and plants and animals have a life force is an interesting concept. But it brings up the question of where in our evolution did we develop, or were given a soul.

Can I ask, from a christian point of view, angels and humans are akin and animals are below?

Thaedydal wrote: »

I would say most animals have spirits/lifeforce which leaves when they die but I would say a few have souls as I don't think I can in all fairness rule out coming back as an animal for a turn on the wheel.

I can think of a few animals who would make you think they were half human Would you be of the opinion that a human can come back as an animal as a lesson, or as punishment, or is becoming human a step up from being an animal like spiritual "evolution".

Nerin

You could say a soul is a theme file,it holds important information and brings it from host to host.

I wouldn't like to even begin to try thinking of the complexities of reincarnation,such as a human being punished by being an icky animal. Makes no sense to me. How can you then punish an animal for being an animal. Animals in reincarnation make things tricky to explain alongside humans.

Actually,one could imagine religious leaders discussing animals in their religions and sayin "feck it,this is just going to be too complicated"

Gareth37

helena.ryan wrote: »

Animals play a large role in the spirituality of a lot of people & cultures. From animal guides, animal based superstision, shamanism, totems etc.

What is the general idea of what happens to an animal when they die. People like to think that they go to the same place as we do (wherever you may believe that to be) and for many people, they would prefer to be where their animal is than where other people are.

Is it niave to think that animals have an individual soul? Millions and millions of ants compared to a faithful old dog who is adored by and adores his master.

What do you think happens when your beloved pets die? How does this compare to your belief of what happens when a farm animal, wild animal or insect dies?

No, animals don't have souls.

Whispered

Gareth37 wrote: »

No, animals don't have souls.

Ok thank you. However I know many people who would just as quickly and confidently say "Animals do have souls". Most other people who answered tried to elaborate a bit on why they think what they think, would you like to do that?

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

Ok thank you. However I know many people who would just as quickly and confidently say "Animals do have souls". Most other people who answered tried to elaborate a bit on why they think what they think, would you like to do that?

Don't bother helena. Trust me.

Nevyn

Nerin wrote: »

Don't bother helena. Trust me.

No need to get snippy I am sure gareth37 will be more then happy to point out, quote and link to here in the relevant sources this is said in christian dogma.
and I for one looks forward to such an enlightening and detailed response.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

Don't bother helena. Trust me.

Don't worry, I've seen Gareths other posts and I for one have found him endlessly entertaining.

I'm looking forward to seeing where it says in the bible animals don't have souls. Or how various verses can be interpeted as saying that. Although I am more interested in people who have thought about this, and come to a conclusion, as opposed to reading it in a book and repeating it. (no offence Gareth)

Gareth37

If you read Saint Birgitta of Sweden it is in there about animals somewhere.

I wished my dogs went to heaven but they don't

But all animals are God's animals.

I do love animals, dogs, birds (robins), even ducks, geese etc. I like to feed them and look after them. They cause no harm in the world

Gareth37

Nicest bird there is:

Nevyn

Could you please quote the passages which support your assertion.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

Could you please quote the passages which support your assertion.

I will over the weekend, there are a lot of relevations to go through.

Do you like lambs:

Nevyn

I find they are incredibly tastey.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

I find they are incredibly tastey.

I don't eat much lamb myself but my dad has a shed full of them fatnening them up for the factory. Will come in handy when the price of food rockets soon with the actions of the antichrist

Nevyn

Woudn't slaugthering of goats be more fitting ? there is a niche market for goats meat.

Whispered

Noooooooo, everyone stop talking about slaughtering lambs.

Nerin

Very good documentary about an african tribe,can't remember it though. They hunt gazelle by tiring it out. They single one out and follow it for miles until its tired out. Usually just one man. They keep following it until it can't run anymore. They then perform a ritual for the peaceful release of its soul,and then bring it back to the village and use every part of it. Theres alot of respect there.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

Woudn't slaugthering of goats be more fitting ? there is a niche market for goats meat.

Don't worry, a day will come when the goats are slaughtered. Before you slaughter the goats you must separate them for the lambs.

Nevyn

I don't see how anyone could mix them up they sound and taste so differntly.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't see how anyone could mix them up they sound and taste so differntly.

You could say that again :rolleyes:

Matthew 25:31-46 :

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. "

Doolee

Maybe getting back to the point...

I dont know if any of you have read "Angels in my Hair" by Lorna Byrne, but I watched an interview with her on Ireland AM via utube and a person texted in to ask if her recently dead dog is in Heaven and Lorna replied No, your dog isnt in Heaven, animals dont have a soul. Maybe its easier to think of animals like nature and plants, they grow and live and breath and we care for them and then they die.

But getting back to the book, its the most beautiful, genuine book ive ever read and highly recommend it to anyone.:)

Thanks!

Nevyn

Gareth37 wrote: »

You could say that again :rolleyes:

Matthew 25:31-46 :

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. "

So only sheep and goats have souls and get into the christian heaven.
Odd that.

PDN

Nerin wrote: »

Very good documentary about an african tribe,can't remember it though. They hunt gazelle by tiring it out. They single one out and follow it for miles until its tired out. Usually just one man. They keep following it until it can't run anymore. They then perform a ritual for the peaceful release of its soul,and then bring it back to the village and use every part of it. Theres alot of respect there.

A lot of cruelty too. Kinder to just cut its throat and give it a quick exit.

Whispered

PDN wrote: »

A lot of cruelty too. Kinder to just cut its throat and give it a quick exit.

I would tend to agree, I hate the idea of it, but, while we can sit here and say it's cruel. It's natural. A man, a single man, outlasting an animal that is built for fleeing. The animal was born to flee, escape, run from predators. It will happen to every single one of them at some stage, whether the predator is man or another animal. I have seen documentaries where a buffalo got stuck in mud and the bastard hyenas started eating him, from the hind legs, alive. It was horrifying to watch.

I would still be more accepting of hunting (when done in certain ways) than I would of mass farming which i think is so much crueller.

(sorry for going OT)

Nevyn

I don't think it is OT, as the thread is about how we value animals and if they have value to us more then just for thier meat then it should be reflected in the way kill, slaughter and eat them.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

So only sheep and goats have souls and get into the christian heaven.
Odd that.

Followers of God = Flock of Sheep that follow God in a bundle with blind faith. They have only 1 shepard so stay in a bunch, all doing the same thing and following the same thing.

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Whispered

Gareth37 wrote: »

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Nice to meet you.

Nevyn

Gareth37 wrote: »

Followers of God = Flock of Sheep that follow God in a bundle with blind faith. They have only 1 shepard so stay in a bunch, all doing the same thing and following the same thing.

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Now that IS off topic, Gareth37 this is about actual animals in a spiritual context and not as used as metaphors.
This will be your only warning to stay on topic.
IF you wish to start a thread about posters in this forum being metaphorical goats then you are welcome to.

Nerin

Doolee wrote: »

Maybe getting back to the point...

I dont know if any of you have read "Angels in my Hair" by Lorna Byrne, but I watched an interview with her on Ireland AM via utube and a person texted in to ask if her recently dead dog is in Heaven and Lorna replied No, your dog isnt in Heaven, animals dont have a soul. Maybe its easier to think of animals like nature and plants, they grow and live and breath and we care for them and then they die.

But getting back to the book, its the most beautiful, genuine book ive ever read and highly recommend it to anyone.:)

Thanks!

Some people believe plants have a soul or energy also.

Agreed pdn,the animal would most definetly suffer. I don't think anyone would think that being killed by a man whos chased you on foot for miles,then delivers the final blow with a crude wooden spear is painless.
I'm merely stating that they believe the animal has a soul,and perform a ceremony at the deathstroke for the animal spirit to go in peace.

Nevyn

Nerin wrote: »

Some people believe plants have a soul or energy also.

Agreed pdn,the animal would most definetly suffer. I don't think anyone would think that being killed by a man whos chased you on foot for miles,then delivers the final blow with a crude wooden spear is painless.
I'm merely stating that they believe the animal has a soul,and perform a ceremony at the deathstroke for the animal spirit to go in peace.

I think that the long chase is more traumatic as the animal is hounded to it's death, as for the honouring ceremony many cultures do that with the ritual slaughter of the animal.

Nerin

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that the long chase is more traumatic as the animal is hounded to it's death, as for the honouring ceremony many cultures do that with the ritual slaughter of the animal.

I'd agree. Theres no doubt the tribe respects the creatures they hunt,but i don't think they know how traumatic it is.

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

I would tend to agree, I hate the idea of it, but, while we can sit here and say it's cruel. It's natural. A man, a single man, outlasting an animal that is built for fleeing. The animal was born to flee, escape, run from predators. It will happen to every single one of them at some stage, whether the predator is man or another animal. I have seen documentaries where a buffalo got stuck in mud and the bastard hyenas started eating him, from the hind legs, alive. It was horrifying to watch.

I would still be more accepting of hunting (when done in certain ways) than I would of mass farming which i think is so much crueller.

(sorry for going OT)

Theres another documentary about the lion pride of an animal sanctuary. It chronicles a few decades. There was a plague and while lots of animals died,the lion population exploded. There was a beautiful and sad moment where an old bull buffalo defended its herd from about 10 lions. While the herd escapes,the buffalo fights off the lions for half a day before becoming exhausted,falling down,and being eaten alive. Nature can be extremely cruel at times too.

CodeMonkey

helena.ryan wrote: »

What do you think happens when your beloved pets die?

They just decompose and are food for worms and bacteria. Pretty much what I think happens to me and other humans when we die. I don't believe in fairy tales and souls.

Nevyn

CodeMonkey to you they may be fairy tales but others they are not so please be respectful of other's believes inline with the charter of this forum.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

Theres another documentary about the lion pride of an animal sanctuary. It chronicles a few decades. There was a plague and while lots of animals died,the lion population exploded. There was a beautiful and sad moment where an old bull buffalo defended its herd from about 10 lions. While the herd escapes,the buffalo fights off the lions for half a day before becoming exhausted,falling down,and being eaten alive. Nature can be extremely cruel at times too.

Yes I saw it. Some of those programmes can be so hard to watch. When I was younger I always cheered for the hunted animal Took me years to realise that if the hunted animal lives the hunter probably dies.

That was my point with the hyenas though, nature can be a bitch. But it's nature, I suppose you can say it's what is supposed to happen. The way that tribe hunted was closer to nature than what happens here. The only thing I can think of that would be comparable to it would be hunting for wild game here.

I know in a lot of cultures a prayer of thanks is given before a meal. When speaking to my RM about this, she said that she will offer a prayer of thanks to not only god, but to the animal as well.

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

Yes I saw it. Some of those programmes can be so hard to watch. When I was younger I always cheered for the hunted animal Took me years to realise that if the hunted animal lives the hunter probably dies.

That was my point with the hyenas though, nature can be a bitch. But it's nature, I suppose you can say it's what is supposed to happen. The way that tribe hunted was closer to nature than what happens here. The only thing I can think of that would be comparable to it would be hunting for wild game here.

I know in a lot of cultures a prayer of thanks is given before a meal. When speaking to my RM about this, she said that she will offer a prayer of thanks to not only god, but to the animal as well.

This would be close to my beliefs,offerings at specific times,and "prayers" to the spirits and deities

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

Now that IS off topic, Gareth37 this is about actual animals in a spiritual context and not as used as metaphors.
This will be your only warning to stay on topic.
IF you wish to start a thread about posters in this forum being metaphorical goats then you are welcome to.

Dang.
Bye Bye

kiffer

I think... if souls exist then there is no reason why animals should not have them...
I would expect the souls of animals to be simpler than those of humans...
In the same way that animals minds are simpler than those of humans.

Do animals have minds/feelings/emotions?
Some people might say... no, animals are automatons, basically living machines.
This makes very little sense to me.
Does my cat worry about existential angst? No.
Does she make long term plans? No, not that I can detect.
Does she have a memory? Yes. even tiny lab mice have memory.
Does she make simple short term plans? Yes, I would say she does. Others might disagree often because they think language is needed to make plans.
Does she get annoyed if I poke her? Yes, she gets angry. Again some people might say that this anger is just a chemical response in her brain to a irritating stimulus... to which I ask you ... what is anger in a human?


The point of this waffle is that animals have minds/feelings/emotions, even if they are simpler than those of a human.
Some animals are simpler than others.

An ant has hardly any mind at all...
Dogs and cats have simple minds.
Chimps have minds closer to those of humans.
Presumably early hominids had simpler minds than we do... at what point do you start to claim that they didn't have a mind or a soul?


I would presume that should souls exist that animals would have souls of a complexity similar to that of their minds when compared to ours.

Ants having just a tiny spark of a soul, glinting briefly as part of the shining beacon that is the gestalt entity of the ant colony.
The souls of more complex creatures would be more complex.

What do you think? Of course why should the complexity or nature of a soul be tied to the complexity or nature of the mind of a creature?
Does a simple minded idiot human have a lesser or less complex soul than that of a smart-complex-quick thinking human?
Does a smart, well trained, sociable dog have a more complex soul than a random stray?

Does complexity equal better?
Does a more enlightened individual have a better/more complex soul than a less enlightened individual.
Is it really 05:20? Why am I not asleep?
Would an true AI have a soul... I would expect not but then again if souls exist then why shouldn't it have a soul, after all we are biological machines grown from a single cell... do we inherit our soul as a spark from our parents or do we create it ourselves by our consciousness, or do will pull it in from beyond?
If we create or claim it from beyond ourselves by virtue of consciousness then why should a true AI not do the same?

Of course all this is dependent on the existence/nature of souls in the first place.
which is probably beyond the scope of a now completely off topic post being made well past my bed time...
hum... stream of consciousness post has gotten out of hand... Sorry Thaedydal and other mods

Whispered

^^ wow, great post.