Transport 21 cutbacks: WRC, Metro West, Luas affected

marmurr1916

According to the Sunday Independent, they've got confirmation that eight major projects under Transport 21 are either going to be axed or suspended 'indefinitely'.

The projects are:

Western Rail Corridor - Phases 2 & 3

The Luas link-up - Luas line BX/D

Metro West and Lucan Luas - to be further reviewed

Railway Safety Programme - will now take 7 years to complete instead of 5

Four road projects will be 'indefinitely suspended':

Galway City Outer Bypass

Castleisland Bypass

N11 Arklow to Rathnew scheme

Motorway service areas

I don't know why the service areas are being suspended indefinitely.

They're vital for safety reasons and they'd make money, pretty quickly too.

Startling internal ministerial documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show that -- as a result of the 3 per cent cuts imposed on government departments announced in July, and a further reduction of 2.5 per cent sought in the run up to the Budget -- key aspects of the €34bn Transport 21 plan are in jeopardy.

According to the documents, the cuts will lead "to the deferral and or rescheduling of a number of key projects. On the public transport side, the following projects are affected: Luas Line BX/D is to be further deferred; Phases 2 and 3 of the Western Rail Corridor will be deferred, possibly to beyond 2015; Metro West and Lucan Luas will be further reviewed, and the Railway Safety programme will take seven instead of five years to complete."

Four major road projects are to be indefinitely suspended. The Galway city outer bypass, the N11 Arklow to Rathnew scheme, the Castle Island bypass and the country's roadside service areas, which were due to start in 2009, are also now affected.

Chris_533976

I'd always like to see more information than the Sunday Independant as they're not the best paper in the world, but the Galway Outer Bypass really really should not be put on the 'postponded indefinately' list. There are other schemes (not gonna mention which as it'll cause a fight) that should 100% be canned before the Outer Bypass gets it.

Zebra3

Good news about the WRC.

Really should be no need for the Luas link-up. MN and the Luas line to Sandyford should one continous line. No other country in the world would build it as two seperate lines. It's embarrassing.

Amtmann

I can't believe it. Historically, massive infrastructural investment has always been a key strategy in stimulating economic growth - think Depression era America, the USSR's Five Year Plans, or the German Autobahn projects of the mid 1930s. Today, Britain plans investing in infrastructure, and such plans also have bipartisan support in the US, too.

I *despise* Fianna Fáil. Yet wait and see, they'll be voted in once more next time round.

Incidentally, dear Uncle Gaybo would want to have something pretty caustic to say about the reputed defferal of the MSAs. I'm not surprised that the Sunday Independent didn't think to ask him for a comment, though.

Ardent

This country is a joke. No way should the Galway bypass be canned.

D.L.R.

Furet wrote: »

I can't believe it. Historically, massive infrastructural investment has always been a key strategy in stimulating economic growth - think Depression era America, the USSR's Five Year Plans, or the German Autobahn projects of the mid 1930s. Today, Britain plans investing in infrastructure, and such plans also have bipartisan support in the US, too.

I *despise* Fianna Fáil. Yet wait and see, they'll be voted in once more next time round.

I agree with you, we should not slow down on infrastructure because we're still well below western european standards. Rail particularly is a sorry mess. And surely the cost of dualling the N11 gap is worth the money. I'd even stomach a toll - rather that than risk my life.

FF will lose the next election - I'll give you any odds you like :cool:

_Kaiser_

Furet wrote: »

I *despise* Fianna Fáil. Yet wait and see, they'll be voted in once more next time round.

D.L.R. wrote: »

FF will lose the next election - I'll give you any odds you like :cool:

As I always say to people with this attitude, who are you gonna replace them with??

Don't get me wrong. FF have squandered the boom experienced by this country over the last 10 years so badly that it only took the slightest hint of a downturn for them to cry poverty (or a slight breeze for the whole house of cards to come down if you prefer).

But I genuinely don't think that any of the alternatives - be it FG, labour, and certainly not the Greens - would be any better. No matter WHO is in, the objective will always be to line your own pockets, look after the vested interests and your friends and family, and get away with as much as you can - it's the Irish way after all!

Don't believe me? Think about it.. if someone gets caught (deliberately) fare evading, or scamming the social welfare, or for not paying their TV license etc etc, the attitude of others (9 times out of 10) ISN'T "well that's what you get! Serves you right to be honest", it's "ah hard luck.. sure don't they have little to bother them!!"

Until THAT attitude changes and we start to put the great good ahead of our own interests, things will NEVER change for the better in this country!

murphaph

I tried to oust FF the last time having been suckered in by 'em the time before but now I'm in two minds again-to my mind the major roads projects are pretty much there or thereabouts but the public transport aspect is way behind. Now, being realistic, the whole of Ireland is boned if Dublin doesn't get the infrastructure it needs to breathe. Dublin absolutely must get the Interconnector (as a starting point for an integrated rail system) and I'm worried so little of it will be done by the time FF are finally removed (it surely has to happen this time?!) that FG will axe it completely as they have never shown public support for it. Leo Varadkar is not enough!

Metro West would run right past 2 of my properties and obviously be beneficial to me, BUT I would rather (for the good of the country) that it be canned or postponed long term in deference to the Interconnector and Metro North. Lucan Luas also runs near one of my properties but again, it's total pants and the situation we're in demands that only the highest value for money be delivered from our tax euros. Metro west/Lucan Luas are not good value in their present incarnations tbh.

WRC of course had to go and should never have been on the table to begin with in that form.

amacachi

murphaph wrote: »

Metro West would run right past 2 of my properties and obviously be beneficial to me, BUT I would rather (for the good of the country) that it be canned or postponed long term in deference to the Interconnector and Metro North.

If only everyone had that attitude we might've gotten somewhere over the last 10 and a bit years.

D.L.R.

Bad planning, not money, is the crux of our problem.

I mean is a 25km rail line around Dublin's periphery really the best place for money to be spent? I'd say worry about the city centre first.
Is it economical to build the M50 twice? Hardly.

A bit more pragmatism, logic and foresight at the initial stage of planning would save us so much money in this country.

Look at Luas Green Line/BX/Metro North. This is the legacy of "saving a few quid" by not building the line under Stephens Green. One day no doubt, they will have to spend another billion to fix it.
Look at the Red Cow. Look at the "temporary" Docklands station. I could go on.

We have squandered so much money over the last 20 years it would make anyone blush. And the root of the problem is BAD PLANNING!

invincibleirish

Best case scenario: with FF/Greens voted out of Government sooner rather then later, whatever Government replaces them will take a more realistic view of this countries public transport and roads infrastructure needs, take the naked politics and gombeenism out of the equation. Start with at least parity of 1:1 between public transport and road spending. Worst case scenario, with the current leader of the opposition from Mayo, well you can see what might happen if someone like Michael Ring gets Transport:rolleyes:.

Scrap T21, CIE and the RPA. With the current public service cutbacks proposals announced By Cowen/Lenihan during the week, new state agencies cannot be set up without specific reasoning, establish transport authorities for the GDA, Cork and Galway/Limerick/Shannon corridor with full powers of planning/spending/control of all transport in their areas, then they can decide and prioritise what is to done in their areas, insteadof the DoT being 'instructed' by the Minister to focus(spend money) on particular pork barrel projects.

On the point of an FDR style public works programme, or its latter day sequels being announced in the UK/USA. Bare in mind no other country has been spending money on infrastructure like Ireland has over the past decade, but because the Transport Ministry has time and time again being used by its incumbent Ministers as a Santas sack we have not got value for money in spending. The idea of a Keynes inspired public works programme here in Ireland to get us out of recession would appeal if it werent for the fact it would be people Like Cullen/Fahy/Martin who would be in charge of implementing it!

murphaph

D.L.R. wrote: »

Bad planning, not money, is the crux of our problem.

..

We have squandered so much money over the last 20 years it would make anyone blush. And the root of the problem is BAD PLANNING!

I'd add corruption to that. I was rooting around an old planning application my late father lodged in the late 80's for a property in Clondalkin. He had obtained the 1981 planning map for West Dublin from Dublin CC and it had the planned roads (Fonthill Road/Outer Ring Road/Western Parkway/Naas Motorway/Lucan Bypass/New Nangor Road etc.) as well as the planned town centres-Liffey Valley was NOT one-that area was to be used for housing. The current site for the planned Clonburris New Town was in fact where the Liffey Valley Centre was to have been located-right beside the Railway, which was to have a "Rapid Rail Link" (remember this is pre-DART!) towards Tallaght roughly following the M50. None of the lands west of Neilstown/Balgaddy were envisioned for the massive residential development that followed. The fact that a few corrupt tossers paid off another few corrupt tossers to relocate the town centre from a sustainable (rail) to an unsustainable (road) node and likewise rezoned thousands of acres for semi-d's is nothing short of criminal. The corrupt tossers are rarely the planners-almost exclusively the politicians. That's why I never trust them.

murphaph

invincibleirish wrote: »

Best case scenario: with FF/Greens voted out of Government sooner rather then later, whatever Government replaces them will take a more realistic view of this countries public transport and roads infrastructure needs, take the naked politics and gombeenism out of the equation. Start with at least parity of 1:1 between public transport and road spending. Worst case scenario, with the current leader of the opposition from Mayo, well you can see what might happen if someone like Michael Ring gets Transport:rolleyes:.

Scrap T21, CIE and the RPA. With the current public service cutbacks proposals announced By Cowen/Lenihan during the week, new state agencies cannot be set up without specific reasoning, establish transport authorities for the GDA, Cork and Galway/Limerick/Shannon corridor with full powers of planning/spending/control of all transport in their areas, then they can decide and prioritise what is to done in their areas, insteadof the DoT being 'instructed' by the Minister to focus(spend money) on particular pork barrel projects.

Sadly I can't see an end to the current gombeenism because Ireland is a land of gombeen men. The public in rural and provincial Ireland simply cannot or will not accept that their small parish/village/town is of absolutely no importance in the national context and that they should be prepared to leave said backwater to find work-ie, move to a city. Ireland is too small for more than 3 big cities. Scotland is comparable in population but almost everybody lives in the central belt (Greenock-Glasgow-Edinburgh) corridor. People in the highlands and islands don't really expect to do anything other than move to the central belt to find decent education/work prospects. People have to get real and realise that me must centralise and (thoughtfully) regionalise services/employment/development. Somebody's home town has to lose-this mentality must change for our nation ever to develop beyond that of the gombeen man. FG supported the WRC remember-they are no better.

Zebra3

murphaph wrote: »

Sadly I can't see an end to the current gombeenism because Ireland is a land of gombeen men. The public in rural and provincial Ireland simply cannot or will not accept that their small parish/village/town is of absolutely no importance in the national context and that they should be prepared to leave said backwater to find work-ie, move to a city. Ireland is too small for more than 3 big cities. Scotland is comparable in population but almost everybody lives in the central belt (Greenock-Glasgow-Edinburgh) corridor. People in the highlands and islands don't really expect to do anything other than move to the central belt to find decent education/work prospects. People have to get real and realise that me must centralise and (thoughtfully) regionalise services/employment/development. Somebody's home town has to lose-this mentality must change for our nation ever to develop beyond that of the gombeen man. FG supported the WRC remember-they are no better.

Well said that man.

Remember that stupid national plan from a few years ago whereby every parish was a centre of development to keep everyone happy. What a waste of time and money. Just another load of crap to con gullible fools at the following election.

G_R

murphaph wrote: »

Sadly I can't see an end to the current gombeenism because Ireland is a land of gombeen men. The public in rural and provincial Ireland simply cannot or will not accept that their small parish/village/town is of absolutely no importance in the national context and that they should be prepared to leave said backwater to find work-ie, move to a city. Ireland is too small for more than 3 big cities. Scotland is comparable in population but almost everybody lives in the central belt (Greenock-Glasgow-Edinburgh) corridor. People in the highlands and islands don't really expect to do anything other than move to the central belt to find decent education/work prospects. People have to get real and realise that me must centralise and (thoughtfully) regionalise services/employment/development. Somebody's home town has to lose-this mentality must change for our nation ever to develop beyond that of the gombeen man. FG supported the WRC remember-they are no better.

finally...someone with sense....if only those eejits in leinster house could have some too.

well said

invincibleirish

murphaph wrote: »

Sadly I can't see an end to the current gombeenism because Ireland is a land of gombeen men. The public in rural and provincial Ireland simply cannot or will not accept that their small parish/village/town is of absolutely no importance in the national context and that they should be prepared to leave said backwater to find work-ie, move to a city. Ireland is too small for more than 3 big cities. Scotland is comparable in population but almost everybody lives in the central belt (Greenock-Glasgow-Edinburgh) corridor. People in the highlands and islands don't really expect to do anything other than move to the central belt to find decent education/work prospects. People have to get real and realise that me must centralise and (thoughtfully) regionalise services/employment/development. Somebody's home town has to lose-this mentality must change for our nation ever to develop beyond that of the gombeen man. FG supported the WRC remember-they are no better.

For now i have to agree with you also:(.

But eventually we as a nation will have to see sense with regards planning and transport provision. Or is that my youthful naivety?

A political party willing to call gombeen mans bluff on useless road and rail projects in the middle of nowhere, combined with a desire for reform of local Gov. and a Spatial strategy that is not just a sop document to be cited when
justifying spending X Millions on some Motorway/Railway to Ballywherever.

Green Party what happened?

Nostradamus

Politicians in the West were told as long as a year ago to "forget it" regarding the WRC north of Athenry. I have noticed that the media here started ignoring or downplaying West-on-Tracks increasingly bombasitic press releases as well. Some of the recent ones have been incredible all "Dublin this and that" stuff.

West on Track should be well pleased they got the southern WRC opened and enjoy their success. Nothing to feel angry about. They got that line up and running finally.

Zebra3

A huge part of the problem is the con that is the census.

A well-meaning event that is abused by those from the country who spend 5 days a week in Dublin still putting down their little village at home as their real home.

This skews the population figures and means services are put in place where there just is not the justification to provide them.

It also gives Dublin a much lower density figure.

Sponge Bob

I suspect that the Indo FoI has been superceded by some discussions that took place in October and that I posted here a month back

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57674282&postcount=1

There has been an NRA Board meeting since I posted this and the Board has the authority to change things so I would advise the Indo to FoI the NRA instead .

Follow the money like :cool:

National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2009 onwards
Indicative Project list agreed between Dept of Finance and NRA as Multi year Funding Envelope.

National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2009

1. Gort-Crusheen
2. Newlands Cross (if enough people make a fuss otherwise 2010)

National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2010

1. Arklow - Rathnew
2. Longford Bypass

National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2011

1. Galway Bypass

National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2012

1. N20 Croom - Mallow
2. N18 Athenry - GORT

No timescale for anything else.

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I suspect that the Indo FoI has been superceded by some discussions that took place in October and that I posted here a month back

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57674282&postcount=1

There has been an NRA Board meeting since I posted this and the Board has the authority to change things so I would advise the Indo to FoI the NRA instead .

Follow the money like :cool:

Any info on the service areas?

strassenwolf

I am delighted to see that the metrowest and Lucan LUAS projects have been sidelined.

Both would have been a terrible waste of money at this stage of the city's development.

In time, perhaps, the metrowest may make sense. I would favour the State planning a route for this project, and protecting/purchasing the proposed route. Perhaps it might even make sense, in a few years time, to turn it into a dedicated route along which buses could run.

And then, if demand is eventually shown to be sufficient, change it into a tramway.

One of the reasons why this project is still alive is because some enthusiasts trumpeted it as an example of a project which did not go through the city centre, and therefore must be a good project.:rolleyes:

For newer visitors to the board, have a look at the public transport map for any number of European cities with public transport systems, to see how sensible those people were to come up with this new approach.:D

Munich or Frankfurt, cities with populations either side of Dublin's, might be a good place to start.

But the priorities which now need to be focussed on are routes into the city. It is true that the Lucan LUAS would have been such a route, but as it would be running parallel to the underused interconnector, it's hard to see any justification for it.

We need at this stage to focus on how value for money can best be achieved.

For example, it is important that the interconnector is not the "underused interconnector" but rather is built with the intention of being a heavily used line running across the city. This doesn't seem to be the current plan, if the currently proposed station designs are anything to go by.

I would certainly favour construction of the LUAS link-up. It's only around 100 million euro and could make an enormous difference to the integration of the city. Most of the other projects would cost a lot more, and would unquestionably be more important, but with the funding doubts about any of the larger projects it is important that we press on with projects which will make a big difference.

BluntGuy

It saddens me to see us being punished with viscious cutbacks in many areas (not just transport). But that's the price we pay for years of waste and corruption.

But even sadder than that is the fact that FF will still retain the majority of their vote, from the annoyingly ignorant chunk of the electorate that still insist on voting on the basis of family voting history.

Anyway, as invincibleirish and murphaph have already said: we need to lose this ridiculous attitude that "MY town is as important as the next one".

It isn't.

We also need to lose that attitude that "they got something, so WE deserve something".

No we don't.

Develop the Dublin and the regional cities: Waterford, Galway, Limerick and Cork at sensible paces. Focus then on a few core regional towns such as Athlone, Sligo and Clonmel perhaps. No point throwing money all over the place with none of it delivering an overall Ireland-wide benefit.

And finally, my opinion of Fianna Fail's "plan" to get us through this recession...

The first cutback that's truly needed is them.

BluntGuy

strassenwolf wrote: »

In time, perhaps, the metrowest may make sense. I would favour the State planning a route for this project, and protecting/purchasing the proposed route. Perhaps it might even make sense, in a few years time, to turn it into a dedicated route along which buses could run.

And then, if demand is eventually shown to be sufficient, change it into a tramway.

Innovative, clever and intuitive thinking that encourages future-proofing, will cost us less and will be undistruptive during the upgrade.

Which is why it will never happen.

The government's idea of "innovation" is the M6/M18/M17 junction... nuff said.

Traumadoc

The N11 between the beehive and the tap has been the scene of many fatal crashes over the years.
Should have been improved years ago.

DWCommuter

I for one do not believe that the reopening of part of the WRC was even remotely wise. Despite its acclaimed "low cost" it has sucked time and resources from far more important public transport projects. As the bubble bursts this will become very evident. Any reasonably minded person cannot say that this project should have went ahead in light of the problems that continue to exist on our railways. Bus services in Limerick and Galway will remain prehistoric. Even the talk of "Gluas" is yet another example of how waylaid common sense has become. The entire approach to public transport has been shoddy, despicable, unprofessional, laughable and downright stupid. The WRC from Ennis to Athenry will be a monument to all of that.

BluntGuy

The Motorway Service Areas being postponed surprised me considering that they seemed to be making some progress over the last few months (not enough to get them all done by the end of 2010 as the NRA have been ridiculously insisting for the last two years, but still something).

Can anybody confirm they've been cancelled for the time being?

invincibleirish

BluntGuy wrote: »

Develop the Dublin and the regional cities: Waterford, Galway, Limerick and Cork at sensible paces. Focus then on a few core regional towns such as Athlone, Sligo and Clonmel perhaps. No point throwing money all over the place with none of it delivering an overall Ireland-wide benefit.

I admire your sentiments BluntGuy but your suggestion of concentrating on the 5 Cities + big towns is what we as a nation are supposed to be doing already and has failed.

The RoI has 4 million people and a finite number of resources, Dublin is deserving of the lions share of those resources because of its size and role as this nations economic engine. Beyond that either we adopt a policy to develop 1 or 2 areas outside of the GDA to develop critical mass or we stay with the current approach of each town/city/county getting its piece of flesh in the form of a white elephant Airport/Motorway/Railway.

Sponge Bob

The service area 'cancellation' strikes me as wrong though I never heard anything about it or discussed it with anyone .

1. They are currently only progressing 1 per motorway (in effect) . These will be very very valuable real estate and will command very high rents , probably 10%+ of the construction cost per annum given their exclusivity . They will cost ( crudely) about €20m each .

The rents may possibly be even 20% of the construction cost on some of them . This is good business .

2. They are also an essential safety measure. People will DIE if they are not built .

Therefore I can see one being built on each of the M7 M8 M6 and M1 M9 at least and possibly 2 .

They may 'reschedule' or 'deprioritise' the rest of the proposed service areas to ensure that the bids to run those initial 5 are high and that they are revenue generators for the NRA but they surely must build at least those ones.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

I admire your sentiments BluntGuy but your suggestion of concentrating on the 5 Cities + big towns is what we as a nation are supposed to be doing already and has failed.

Sadly it has, due to our resources being thrown aimlessly at little towns and villages with no real purpose on an island-wide scale.

Yes, towns and villages need basic infrastructure and services, but we need to accept that we can't have everything in every place. We will soon have motorways to take people to the large urban centres where they can access the more extravagent services if they live outside those areas. That's all that's necessary.

And make no mistake, I have no misconceptions about the term "balanced regional development". Some people seem to think "balanced" means that all areas should be in equilibrium with Dublin when it comes to funding. Nonsense. Take the west of Ireland (Galway, Limerick, Sligo corridor). It has a population of around 300,000. HOW in God's name, can it expect to get the same amount of funding as an area with more than 1,500,000 people (greater Dublin area)?

Another example: take Cork. Its greater area has a population of around 250,000. How can Galway, a city with a catchment close to 100,000 expect to get the same funding?

Between the 5 biggest cities, that's more-or-less half the population. So HALF the funding should logically go into those areas. And it's not as if the cities are on top of each other (with the exception of Galway and Limerick possibly).

Galway covers the West of the country, Cork the South-West and Waterford the South-East. If funding was spread proportionatly across those to establish them as core regional cities, we would have a much better system where regional developement is encouraged, but in a much better-planned, concentrated and controlled manner.

Sadly though, that's apparently the model we've been following and it's failed. I don't know what to suggest at this stage.

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The service area 'cancellation' strikes me as wrong though I never heard anything about it or discussed it with anyone .

The NRA only released the Athlone M6 EIS a few days ago and the N11 Gorey one just a few weeks go. They seem to be making a bit of progress and their stance hasn't changed. They want to have them done by 2010 (though they must know this is an impossible goal).

Sponge Bob wrote:

1. They are currently only progressing 1 per motorway (in effect) . These will be very very valuable real estate and will command very high rents , probably 10%+ of the construction cost per annum given their exclusivity . They will cost ( crudely) about €20m each .

Where did you hear that?

Second, two on the M1 for the 1st tranche? Stupid approach IMO. The first tranche should have been: M7 - Mostarevin, M6 - Athlone, M1 - Northern One. Two on the M1 and one on the M4 is very unbalanced in terms of network coverage.

Sponge Bob wrote:

2. They are also an essential safety measure. People will DIE if they are not built .

People HAVE died as a result of them not being there already. They must be finished.

Therefore I can see one being built on each of the M7 M8 M6 and M1 M9 at least and possibly 2 .

As mentioned before currently they have EIS plans for:

M1 - Northern
M1 - Southern
M4 - Middle Of It Somewhere (I dunno )
M6 - Athlone
M11 - Gorey

I expect to see the Cashel M8 one next, followed by the M7 Monstarevin and the M9 southern one.

The M1 and M4 ones are at tender stage and they have recently tendered for archaeological services at the sites (tenders due December 2nd).

I don't think the article was correct about the MSAs. Maybe all twelve won't be finished as orginally envisaged, but surely six or seven of them will get through.

Anyway, I have e-mailed the NRA about this (and a number of other issues) and hopefully I'll get some kind of response.

bazzer

strassenwolf wrote: »

I am delighted to see that the metrowest and Lucan LUAS projects have been sidelined.

Exactly what is it about the Lucan Luas that many people find so objectionable? The west of the Dublin City has been neglected transport-wise for decades. This was the one glimmer of hope people had to see that side of the city brought some semblance of a decent mass transportation system.

noelfirl

bazzer wrote: »

Exactly what is it about the Lucan Luas that many people find so objectionable? The west of the Dublin City has been neglected transport-wise for decades. This was the one glimmer of hope people had to see that side of the city brought some semblance of a decent mass transportation system.

Because it's a pretty shoddy setup. A good portion of it will be non-segregated on road or roadside. It's not going to significantly improve on transit times from Lucan to city centre when you consider the dedicated bus lanes in existence. It'll fly down the canal in segregated mode then grind to a halt as it hits Ballyfermot village and Cherry Orchard, where short of massive land grabs, there really just isn't appropriate amounts of space all the way down for a two line tram system and a major arterial road.

Make no mistake, a lovely integrated rail solution for the better part of the city would be marvelous, but with projects being cancelled left and right, in the short term less money could be spent on putting in peak time feeder bus routes to the N4 corridor and Kildare line, or improving peak time express services.

murphaph

bazzer wrote: »

Exactly what is it about the Lucan Luas that many people find so objectionable? The west of the Dublin City has been neglected transport-wise for decades. This was the one glimmer of hope people had to see that side of the city brought some semblance of a decent mass transportation system.

Erm, Interconnector!

The Interconnector will bring far greater benefits to West Dublin (including places in West Dublin it goes nowhere near (D15). Use buses to feed many more people to the massive capacity DART lines through West Dublin created by, the Interconnector!

Zebra3

strassenwolf wrote: »

I would certainly favour construction of the LUAS link-up. It's only around 100 million euro and could make an enormous difference to the integration of the city. Most of the other projects would cost a lot more, and would unquestionably be more important, but with the funding doubts about any of the larger projects it is important that we press on with projects which will make a big difference.

Surely it'd be cheaper to join the MN and Sandyford Luas line up.

Does the same job and saves digging up the city centre twice. Plus provides a better service.

Having MN and the Sandyford Luas line as two seperate lines is a joke.

paulm17781

Zebra3 wrote: »

Surely it'd be cheaper to join the MN and Sandyford Luas line up.

Does the same job and saves digging up the city centre twice. Plus provides a better service.

Having MN and the Sandyford Luas line as two seperate lines is a joke.

Bx is about extending the line to Finglas. It's not about linking them.

KC61

Even if line BX is built, people seem to be under a misconception here. At no point has it been suggested that the two lines would be physically joined - my reading of all the plans is that the two lines would cross one another at O'Connell Street and Marlborough Street respectively. People will still have to go from one stop to another to change lines.

Either way I still remain to be convinced that there are huge volumes of people wanting to travel from the Green line to the Red Line and v.v. - I agree that people may want to travel to the O'Connell Street area, but if Metro North is built it will be perfectly possible to continue the journey from the Green Line to the north city centre with one quick change and more importantly on an integrated ticket!

markpb

paulm17781 wrote: »

Bx is about extending the line to Finglas. It's not about linking them.

Couldn't the line to Finglas come off Metro North somewhere further north instead of coming off the Luas at OCS? I don't mean a branch of the metro, just a Luas/Metro interchange. It would serve the same areas but be a lot cheaper and not dependant on the always-shakey BX line.

KC61 wrote: »

Either way I still remain to be convinced that there are huge volumes of people wanting to travel from the Green line to the Red Line and v.v. - I agree that people may want to travel to the O'Connell Street area, but if Metro North is built it will be perfectly possible to continue the journey from the Green Line to the north city centre with one quick change and more importantly on an integrated ticket!

I do this journey every day (bus in from the northside, walk/bus across the city centre to the green line Luas). A luas link *done properly* would work wonders for my commute. Right now it takes 20 minutes to get into town, 20 minutes to get out to Sandyford and another 20 minutes to do the 1km in the middle.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

I do this journey every day (bus in from the northside, walk/bus across the city centre to the green line Luas). A luas link *done properly* would work wonders for my commute. Right now it takes 20 minutes to get into town, 20 minutes to get out to Sandyford and another 20 minutes to do the 1km in the middle.

Fair enough, but if Metro North is built, could you not use it to do the connection?

markpb

Only if DB sort out feeder buses and unless there's a huge change in the way public transport is run in this county, I'm not confident of that.

paulm17781

markpb wrote: »

Couldn't the line to Finglas come off Metro North somewhere further north instead of coming off the Luas at OCS? I don't mean a branch of the metro, just a Luas/Metro interchange. It would serve the same areas but be a lot cheaper and not dependant on the always-shakey BX line.

Actually, I'd say it could. Though knowing how we do rail in this country, I would think that would be more likely to make trains less frequent through that area where as in other countries they would do this to double capacity.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

Only if DB sort out feeder buses and unless there's a huge change in the way public transport is run in this county, I'm not confident of that.

I think that a cultural change in how public transport is managed in Ireland is essential, along with a cultural change in attitudes towards using it as well!

Until the 1932 and 1958 Transport Acts are reformed with regard to the licensing of bus services, I would be surprised if any significant operator were to attempt to enter the Irish marketplace.

This and the establishment of the DTA should be the catalyst for change. But there is a long way to go.

However, the point that I was trying to make is that if Metro North were built, would it not be possible for you to make your journey by bus to O'Connell Street, then Metro to St. Stephen's Green, and then LUAS to Sandyford? Yes it might be a tad inconvenient going down underground, but it would surely be faster than the 20 minute journey you have at present. I still remain unconvinced for the need to duplicate this by adding the LUAS through the city centre.

BrianD

bazzer wrote: »

Exactly what is it about the Lucan Luas that many people find so objectionable? The west of the Dublin City has been neglected transport-wise for decades. This was the one glimmer of hope people had to see that side of the city brought some semblance of a decent mass transportation system.

Would it not be better to put on the CPO on what was the old Lucan railway station and reopen it?

I would be unconvinced that light rail is the best option to serve Lucan.

L1011

BrianD wrote: »

Would it not be better to put on the CPO on what was the old Lucan railway station and reopen it?

I would be unconvinced that light rail is the best option to serve Lucan.

It'd require major work to upgrade the road (and junction near it) as well as car parking - might be easier to put a new station the other side of the bridge; and provide a shuttle bus service to it.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

However, the point that I was trying to make is that if Metro North were built, would it not be possible for you to make your journey by bus to O'Connell Street, then Metro to St. Stephen's Green, and then LUAS to Sandyford? Yes it might be a tad inconvenient going down underground, but it would surely be faster than the 20 minute journey you have at present. I still remain unconvinced for the need to duplicate this by adding the LUAS through the city centre.

Assuming a reasonable frequency on MN, yes. I'm not in favour of replicating MN and Luas BX but I'm remaining extremely cynical about MN going ahead. I think the big delay is just around the corner but FF won't admit it. The railway order will sit on Dempseys desk and nothing will happen. If (or when) he's pressured about it, he'll hire a consultancy to do a VFM audit on the project which will delay it by another year.

Sean9015

KC61 wrote: »

Either way I still remain to be convinced that there are huge volumes of people wanting to travel from the Green line to the Red Line and v.v. - I agree that people may want to travel to the O'Connell Street area, but if Metro North is built it will be perfectly possible to continue the journey from the Green Line to the north city centre with one quick change and more importantly on an integrated ticket!

Southside - Heuston? And no, the 92 is neither reliable enough nor sensibly priced to be an alternative. Interconnector may be when/if it is built, but that will depend on the precise interchange arrangements - the walk at Heuston (particularly to platforms 6-8) looks very long.

Integrated ticketing already in effect exists for the journey through season tickets, but the journey time penalty SSG, wait for 92 / walk to O'Connell Bridge for 91/91/92 and crawl along the Quays; well, I have WALKED it quicker, and cycling means I am at Heuston before I could even have caught a bus. FOr O'Connell St, by the time connections between LUAS and Metro North, together with walk time between platfoerms is taken into account, it will probably still be quicker to walk.

Not joining them up was madness - but doing the work now will also be incredibly disruptive, and may actually damage overall accessibility (if southside buses can no longer get through to the Liffey reasonably quickly). To compete with the car, PT (not not just one mode) must be able to offer end to end journey reliability. Changes introduce risk - no matter how "integrated" or well planned - whcih can only be mitigated by the user extending his / her personal journey time, by startnig out earlier.

KC61

I have to disagree - in most major cities people do change modes to get from A to B, it is something we've never had the opportunity to do in Dublin.

My comments regarding BX are made on the pretext that Metro North is built - I view it as unnecessary duplication, when there are other public transport projects in the capital that might be better investing in.

By the time Metro North is built, we should (one would hope) have fully integrated ticketing in place, which is also the angle that I was coming from.

I still cannot believe that there are such large numbers travelling (using the example above) from Heuston to the Green Line that would warrant construction of the Green Line extension, if Metro North is to be in place also.

With the frequency planned for Metro North, waiting should not be an issue.

Sean9015

KC61 wrote: »

I have to disagree - in most major cities people do change modes to get from A to B, it is something we've never had the opportunity to do in Dublin.

My comments regarding BX are made on the pretext that Metro North is built - I view it as unnecessary duplication, when there are other public transport projects in the capital that might be better investing in.

By the time Metro North is built, we should (one would hope) have fully integrated ticketing in place, which is also the angle that I was coming from.

I still cannot believe that there are such large numbers travelling (using the example above) from Heuston to the Green Line that would warrant construction of the Green Line extension, if Metro North is to be in place also.

With the frequency planned for Metro North, waiting should not be an issue.

Given the connection times, I would not use MN to get from SSG to Heuston. The times would I suspect be :

00:00 Off tram
Walk to MN platform
00:03 Arrive at platform
00:06 Depart
00:08 Alight at O'Connel St
Walk to Abbey St
00:13 Arrive Abbey Street LUAS
00:16 Board LUAS
00:25 Alight Heuston (Note - assumes catch lights OK at O'Connell St)

Allowing time to negotiate Heuston, you would still have to allow 35 minutes. Would a through LUAS link be better? Maybe not - what you saved thorugh not interchanging would probably be lost getting round Trinity. But the uncertainty of the changes would not be there. It can be walked in that time (I've done it), and cycled in less than half (I do it). Maybe there are not huge numbers doing it now, but had the lines been linked, would the market have developed (as opposed to say driving from Stillorgan to Heuston)? More to the point, is there a potential market FROM the Red line to the employment areas around Sandyford? There are certainly shoppers heading to Dundrum. Certainly the inclusion of a stop at SSG on the Interconnector means that CIE think there's a market - underground stations don't come cheap.

Re connections, I will give an example. When the Tyne and Wear Metro openied, cross Tyne bus services were severely cut back and people largely forced onto the metro at Gateshead. Full integrated ticketing was available (this was in PTE days). The few remaining cross Tyne sevices were heavily loaded.

When bus deregulation came in and operators could not longer be forced to use the Metro, cross-Tyne bus services expanded, and were well used, while Metro carryings fell. It is a fact that on short journeys, people do not like changing.

Before you quote London at me, bear in mind that a very small proportion of journeys in the central area are car based, and PT is the only option - so whatever TfL deign to provide will be used (and having used London public transport, I find it a less thrilling experience for a number of reasons - and certainly not cheap). Also, most interchange is rail-bus or rail tube, as the termnii are on the edge of the centre, or tube-tube, where you stay on the system as you change. Journeys are generally longer than in Dublin, which means the connection time is a smaller proportion of the overall journey.

Connections introduce risk into a journey. They will deter use. I agree that PT cannot provide for all permutaions - it is a mass mover - but to reduce overall accessibility by forcing intercgange is a bad move.

KC61

You're forgetting that DART Underground (aka Interconnector) will make the connection to/from Heuston and Stephen's Green.

Provided there is both DART Underground and Metro North, the need for line BX really drops significantly.

You're argument is based on through LUAS services between the Green and Red lines. Again the LUAS service as proposed is NOT a through service from the Green to Red lines. They will be separate. You would have to change at Abbey stop on the Red line and go to/from O'Connell or Marlborough on the BX line.

If (and I accept that it's still a big if) both DART Underground and Metro North do go ahead, all the locations that could be served by LUAS will be accessible by either of the above or within a short walk thereof, thus rendering line BX superfluous.

Bus deregulation as happened in the UK is not likely to happen here - we are more likely to have in the long run regulated services run by a mix of public and private operators.

T Corolla

http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Heavy_Rail/Western_Rail_Corridor.html
Updated 24/11/08
http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Metro_West.html
Update 4/11/08
Looks like they are still going ahead as previously planned

DWCommuter

T Corolla wrote: »

http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Heavy_Rail/Western_Rail_Corridor.html
Updated 24/11/08
http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Metro_West.html
Update 4/11/08
Looks like they are still going ahead as previously planned

There's more reality in a ladybird story book than on that web site.

weehamster

DWCommuter wrote: »

There's more reality in a ladybird story book than on that web site.

favourite this month
Super, Shiny Robots!

Synopsis

Discover some amazing and funny robots in this engaging book. Each page features a robot with an interactive novelty such as a flap to lift or a wheel to turn. Simple, rhyming text describes robots with clocks for eyes and springs for hair, who can whizz around on wheels and even cook your meals! At the back of the book there is a special robot tune.