Why hasn't Bernard Dunne fought any Irishmen?

Hangballlouie

I find it strange that an Irish boxer hasn't fought another Irishman. Why is this? And don't anyone say that there is no one out there for him to fight, as there is at least three or four good guys out there that would challenge him, and in my opinion probably beat him.

I also want to ask why is Bernard number 1 S-B in Ireland on Box-rec, even though Paul Hyland is champion?

unknown13

Because the only Irishman to fight is Paul Hyland and Bernard Dunne would beat him very easily

walshb

unknown13 wrote: »

Because the only Irishman to fight is Paul Hyland and Bernard Dunne would beat him very easily

Exactly, so why NOT fight him?:rolleyes:

That's Dunne and Peters CURRENT agenda isn't it.

Fight guys we can beat and know we can beat!

Big Ears

hangballlouie wrote: »

I find it strange that an Irish boxer hasn't fought another Irishman. Why is this? And don't anyone say that there is no one out there for him to fight, as there is at least three or four good guys out there that would challenge him, and in my opinion probably beat him.

I also want to ask why is Bernard number 1 S-B in Ireland on Box-rec, even though Paul Hyland is champion?

Boxrec's ratings system is based on computerised rankings, did you seriously think they sit down to rate every fighter in the World ?, Not to mention Dunne is the former champion of Europe where as Paulie beat faded English journeyman Marc Callaghan(no disrespect to Marc) to win the Irish title.

Guys Dunne could have/now fight: Paulie Hyland, Wayne McCullough, Paul Griffin, Patrick Hyland.


Maybe the McCullough fight could have happened 2/3 years back but now there's no point and I hope Wayne(despite his own intentions) never sees foot in the ring again as anything other than a trainer.

Paulie has been screaming and shouting about Dunne but the only thing he had done of note was(impressively) win the Irish title against Callaghan. But Callaghan is well past it now and himself would lose easily to the likes of Marchiano, Faccio or Machado.

Paulie then lost to a journeyman in America completely ruining his own chances of the fight. Why he was fighting a 4 rounder god knows but he got dropped and deserved to lose against a man with a record that isn't exactly inspiring. Who knows Gonzalez may turn out to be somebody but the fact remains that Paulie is 12-1-0, he's only fought in one 10 rounder. He's lost his last fight and is only ranked 11th in the European Union and not at all in the full European rankings.

Hyland is less proven than Dunne's opponents and he would probably cost more.

Walshb to be fair Eduardo Garcia would of been a very good test for Dunne recently, you can't blame anyone for him picking up a cut in sparring.

Patrick Hyland is at Featherweight and similarly unproven, although is starting to build himself a decent record. He has a much greater claim to getting a fight with Dunne.

A fight with Paul Griffin would be very much pointless, Paul is past his best and despite an impressive looking record an Olympic experience he's never really beaten anyone(at all) of any note in the pros.

OP I'm sure you find it strange that out of Andy Lee, John Duddy, Matthew Macklin, Jim Rock, Simon O'Donnell, James Moore, Jason McKay and Brian Magee, only Lee and McKay have faced each other.

Or how come we've never had any fights between Kevin McBride, Colin Kenna, Martin Rogan, Scott Belshaw, James Clancy and Declan Timlin ?

It's a rarity for any Irish fighters to face each other nowdays, something which will hopefully change.

Hangballlouie

I agree will Walshb. I also believe that Paul Hyland would push him all the way, if not beat him. A lot of people on this forum were calling for Bernard to move to Featherweight a while back, and if he did, there is a lot of good domestic fights for him there, with Patrick Hyland, Martin Lyndsey and even Paul Griffith. They would all be good match-ups.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Walshb to be fair Eduardo Garcia would of been a very good test for Dunne recently, you can't blame anyone for him picking up a cut in sparring.

Patrick Hyland is at Featherweight and similarly unproven, although is starting to build himself a decent record. He has a much greater claim to getting a fight with Dunne.

A fight with Paul Griffin would be very much pointless, Paul is past his best and despite an impressive looking record an Olympic experience he's never really beaten anyone(at all) of any note in the pros.

OP I'm sure you find it strange that out of Andy Lee, John Duddy, Matthew Macklin, Jim Rock, Simon O'Donnell, James Moore, Jason McKay and Brian Magee, only Lee and McKay have faced each other.

Or how come we've never had any fights between Kevin McBride, Colin Kenna, Martin Rogan, Scott Belshaw, James Clancy and Declan Timlin ?

It's a rarity for any Irish fighters to face each other nowdays, something which will hopefully change.

All those names are pointless and will prove nothing, just as Faccio proved. Garcia didn't fight and the excuse that he was cut, so what, Dunne has still to STEP up from Aug 2007. He's 3-0 in his 2nd career; but still to fight a legitimate and natural and decent 122 lb fighter! I'm waiting, but I'm not counting on Dunne fighting anyone decent very soon!

Big Ears, what agenda do you see for Bernard between now and the end of 2009?
Who do you see him fight and what level will he aspire to?

Hangballlouie

unknown13 wrote: »

Because the only Irishman to fight is Paul Hyland and Bernard Dunne would beat him very easily

I believe Paul has the tools to beat him. Dunne is one of the most protected boxers out there, and I like Bernard. I just think it is about time he stepped up to the plate. A good domestic fight with the crowd evenly balanced would be great for Irish boxing, and would also show what Bernard is made of.

Big Ears wrote: »

Boxrec's ratings system is based on computerised rankings, did you seriously think they sit down to rate every fighter in the World ?, quote]


I also know they don't sit down and rate every boxer, I am not an idiot. I do believe that the Irish champion should be number 1, until he loses his title, which Paul Hyland hasn't done.

Big Ears

hangballlouie wrote: »

I agree will Walshb. I also believe that Paul Hyland would push him all the way, if not beat him. A lot of people on this forum were calling for Bernard to move to Featherweight a while back, and if he did, there is a lot of good domestic fights for him there, with Patrick Hyland, Martin Lyndsey and even Paul Griffith. They would all be good match-ups.

Actually forgot about Lindsay(always do), he's the one fighter you could criticise Dunne for not fighting in the future if Lindsay actually wanted that fight. But Lindsay is mandatory for the British Featherweight title and has his eyes set on that.

I'm not sure how you see Hyland beating Dunne, he has no quality better than Dunne and is also much less experienced.

But anyway:

Walshb wrote: »

Big Ears, what agenda do you see for Bernard between now and the end of 2009?
Who do you see him fight and what level will he aspire to?

Well Obviously the main objective is to try and win a World title, and while I know you argued on another thread about this his best chance is actually at Featherweight due to 2 of the fighters that hold titles there. Oscar Larios and Cristobal Cruz are two very weak champions. Both are former Super-Bantamweights themselves and only moved into the higher weightclass in their advancing years(very late 20's).

They will naturally be the same size as Dunne, although both are stronger men. Cruz has lost to worse fighters than Dunne but is on a very good run at the minute and looks to have settled in well at Featherweight having attempted to fight at Super-featherweight(unsuccesfully) for a few years.

Larios really is starting to show his age, the WBC have accommodated him with some very easy fights and because of that he's holding a World title but the man is a shadow of himself and waiting to be taken.
I'm not convinced Dunne would beat either man but I am sure that he won't get a better chance at a World title in the future than either of these two.

Some major problems would arise should he actually win though. Yuriorkis Gambia is slated to fight for the interim WBC title as Larios 'needs time to recuperate', which basically means Larios has been a good servant to the WBC and they don't want to see him beaten for a little while longer, especially when they can get twice the sanctioning fees by having another champion.

On the other side of things the IBF inforce mandatories all the time and it wouldn't be long before Dunne was disposed as champion. However it's better to have a go and actually try so I think if his camp can actually get a title shot at either of these men at featherweight they should take it.

Otherwise they should try and get a fight with Rendall Munroe(which they are pursuing), £60,000 is nothing to be sniffed at and is 2/3 times what Munroe would normally pick up for a fight. When you consider the World rankings both fighters hold, it makes sense. Munroe will have to make a mandatory defence after Trotta(against Martinez), should he win those the fight just becomes even bigger and Munroe's World rankings would be very high.

So the best thing for Dunne to do(if he can't get Larios or Cruz) is to fight someone of Garcia like quality, then take on Munroe in an eliminator for one of the belts. Doesn't matter which one as neither Munroe or Dunne are good enough to beat any of the Super-Bantamweight champions. If it's a final eliminator he can look to get his title shot before the years out, if it isn't then he simply fights whoever he has to in a final eliminator.

With that said I think Peters is probably looking at fighting Munroe because it's the easiest path to a World title. Munroe not only holds good rankings but the European title is a way in which you can fight poor fighters(such as Trotta) and still make your way to the top of the World rankings.
So I think if Dunne was to win back his European title, Peters would probably have him milk it till Maludrottu is made mandatory, at which point Peters and Maludrottu's men would probably look to have that fight made a final eliminator. Dunne would take care of Maludrottu easily imo and from there Dunne would get his title shot.

If he can't do that or get a shot up at Featherweight then I think they'll take the tough route, because it's the only realistic option left and I feel that if Peters doesn't lift the level of competition then people will simply stop watching him, so in effect he has to do something to push Dunne towards a title if he is to make money off of him.

hangballlouie wrote: »

I also know they don't sit down and rate every boxer, I am not an idiot. I do believe that the Irish champion should be number 1, until he loses his title, which Paul Hyland hasn't done.

Do you believe they should have David Barnes above Ricky Hatton ?

Hangballlouie

I understand what your saying Bigears, but I'm one of those guys that respects the Irish belt. The man that has the belt is number one in my eyes, until he loses the belt
I agree with you that there isn't much differece in terms of skill with Bernard Dunne and Paul Hyland. I just believe that Hyland has a strong chance. Maybe experience would go against him at this point, but a year or so down the line???
Lyndsey as you said would be a very tough fight for Dunne if he took it, but I actually consider Patrick Hyland the toughest opponent in Ireland for Dunne, and I have no doubt he would beat Dunne.
Again this is just my opinion from what I have seen over the last decade or so.

walshb

Thanks Big Ears, as always, serious effort and time put into your replies!

Big Ears

hangballlouie wrote: »

I understand what your saying Bigears, but I'm one of those guys that respects the Irish belt. The man that has the belt is number one in my eyes, until he loses the belt
I agree with you that there isn't much differece in terms of skill with Bernard Dunne and Paul Hyland. I just believe that Hyland has a strong chance. Maybe experience would go against him at this point, but a year or so down the line???
Lyndsey as you said would be a very tough fight for Dunne if he took it, but I actually consider Patrick Hyland the toughest opponent in Ireland for Dunne, and I have no doubt he would beat Dunne.
Again this is just my opinion from what I have seen over the last decade or so.

I have great respect for the Irish belt, after World and European titles it is the most important to me as an Irishman. But Ricky Hatton is ahead of Barnes even though Barnes is British champion because Hatton is a better fighter. Now some might say 'well Hatton is World champion, so of course he'll be higher than the British champion', but Junior Witter also deserves(and has in the minds of everyone) a higher ranking than Barnes, and Witter currently holds no title.



I think you misunderstood my post, I don't really see Hyland v Dunne as a close fight. Dunne does everything better than young Hyland, including hitting harder(imo) and having a better defence. Bernard's a bigger man aswell, technically sounder and is much, much more experienced. Dunne would of stopped Callaghan. This isn't to take anything away from Paulie, he's a good fighter who will be an important individual in the European Super-Bantamweight division for many years to come, but I see it being some time before he can beat Dunne.

Patrick Hyland is the biggest puncher we have out of all our Super-Bantamweights and Featherweights but I don't think he's as good as Martin Lindsay. Lindsay has shown what he's capable of in beating a top British/European level fighter in Derry Matthews and although Patrick has been impressive he hasn't shown me he's at that level yet. Lindsay will be very toughly tested again soon when he takes on Paul Appleby(he'll be the underdog for a second fight in a row) and it's then we'll see what he's truly made of.

I know Patrick wants to step upto the plate and prove he's the better man but Lindsay can't be blamed for not looking for that fight when he has bigger names in site.

If Paulie really wants the Dunne fight he could start by defeating Esham Pickering. That would put him in the European rankings and show he deserves to share the ring with Dunne.

-No problem Walshb, always happy to give my opinion.

sston

hangballlouie wrote: »

I also know they don't sit down and rate every boxer, I am not an idiot. I do believe that the Irish champion should be number 1, until he loses his title, which Paul Hyland hasn't done.

On that basis because Dean Francis is British Light Heavyweight champ then he's the best light heavy in Britain and should be rated above Joe Calzaghe.....

Maybe your logic is a bit flawed.

walshb

I got to see Appleby V Pickering. What a mismatch really. Appleby was like a man playing with a rag doll. Pickering couldn't impose himself at all and spent the night running and surviving. Would Appleby beat Dunne? I say YES!

I know he's a feather; but if Dunne is being spoken about in terms of challenging for feather titles, then Appleby is a man he should be able to beat!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I got to see Appleby V Pickering. What a mismatch really. Appleby was like a man playing with a rag doll. Pickering couldn't impose himself at all and spent the night running and surviving. Would Appleby beat Dunne? I say YES!

I know he's a feather; but if Dunne is being spoken about in terms of challenging for feather titles, then Appleby is a man he should be able to beat!

Haven't seen the Pickering fight yet but I'm a big fan of Appleby and I think he's a fantastic prospect. He works the body really well and carries a ferocious dig. He'd beat Dunne because of his power, not his skill however. Larios and Cruz don't hit quite as hard as young Appleby but are more skillfull.
Appleby can be too eager at times but it is eagerness like this which would have him see off Dunne, where as Larios and Cruz will try and just win rounds, boxing at a controlled steady pace and applying good consistent(but not frantic) pressure.

Appleby is around European level at the minute anyway, and I think he will outpoint Martin Lindsay. He still needs to do plenty of work if he is ever to be up to World level but given he is only 21 I think there's a good chance he will.

As you know yourself Walshb, just because A beats B, and B beats C, doesn't mean A beats C. With that said I would favour Larios and Cruz to beat Dunne, but he does actually have somewhat of a chance in those fights.
If chin wasn't an issue I'd actually fancy Dunne quite heavily but we all know what the case there is.

Hangballlouie

sston wrote: »

On that basis because Dean Francis is British Light Heavyweight champ then he's the best light heavy in Britain and should be rated above Joe Calzaghe.....

Maybe your logic is a bit flawed.

As I have already said to Bigears, I understand why most would have the guys like Calzaghe, Hatton and Dunne rated over other British/Irish fighters. If we wanted, we could come up with examples all day for my flawed logic.
Domestic fights are for me the most exciting. Nothing beats that. If I had been good enough to turn pro, the first thing I would have aimed to do was clean up at a domestic level.
We don't see enough of this, so the guys that do have the domestic fights like Hylands/Rock etc, have a lot more of my respect.
And in my eyes are number 1 in their respective countries.
Again just my opinion.

T-K-O

Simple answer - none of them are good enough, if Dunne did fight them he would be slaughtered on here for doing so.

The national belt is nothing more than a stepping stone - and to be honest not an important one.

The likes of Rock being champion means nothing in the bigger picture.

joepenguin

imo there is not a lot of point in people fighting for the Irish title if they are way above that level. In Dunnes case he is European or thereabouts. The title should be fought out between guys who do not quite meet the European level or when they are early on in their careers. In its own right it is a very important title.

cowzerp

hangballlouie wrote: »

but I'm one of those guys that respects the Irish belt. The man that has the belt is number one in my eyes, until he loses the belt
I agree with you that there isn't much differece in terms of skill with Bernard Dunne and Paul Hyland. I just believe that Hyland has a strong chance. Maybe experience would go against him at this point, but a year or so down the line???

So if dunne was world champ, the irish champ out ranks him? the irish title is unimportant, ok for journeymen to use as a selling point but useless to someone of dunne's ready made name..and Hyland is a poor mans dunne, would not have a hope against bernard and would be stopped over a 12 rd bout.

hangballlouie wrote: »

Lyndsey as you said would be a very tough fight for Dunne if he took it, but I actually consider Patrick Hyland the toughest opponent in Ireland for Dunne, and I have no doubt he would beat Dunne.
Again this is just my opinion from what I have seen over the last decade or so.

When has Hyland looked worthy of even getting a fight with dunne?
he's looked average against journey men and was no great shake as an amateur either and is not 1 of the average amateurs that had lots of power that could be used more effectively in the pro game.

The amateur game suited hyland better..Dunne also lacks power but was miles ahead of Hyland as an amateur and still is..the fight would probably generate interest but would end Hylands career fast.

walshb

Fellas, is Dunne really that far ahead in terms of ranking and class. What has he done to be placed so high above local fighters. I haven't seen a thing since his first fight back. Three wins against 118lb fighters who were hardly world class. This is hardly a class above anyone IMO. I think it's a little insulting to the local fighters here to try and place Bernard so high above them. When he earns it, I will relent; and his Europoean win is well in the past.
Bernard cannot live on his past exploits, he is IMO as low now as he has ever been.

cowzerp

yes he is, well ahead-they need to move up to his level, dunne has more skill, power and both amateur and pro experience than hyland, its a no brainer really..Dunne was rated highly before he even went pro for a reason, hyland is ok and will be irish/british level at best.

T-K-O

Spot on Zerp. Say what you want about Dunne but he was an outstanding amateur with a huge rep and was expected to have a great career - is that expected of Hyland ??

If anything is insulting here it is that fact that Dunne is being compared to Hyland, it is also unfair on Hyland,.

walshb

He was an outstanding Irish amateur; but that's in the PAST and that is in the
amateurs. You cannot live off that. I am talking about the PRO game and his 2nd career.
He is back at the bottom of the pile IMO; he hasn't done anything to say otherwise since Aug 2007. That's my point, so even if Hyland and CO are lowly ratet, they still are at the bottom wit Dunne.

Dunne is on career number 2. He is at square 1 again. This is where we MUST rank; not his amateur or early PRO career. That's well gone and forgotten.

cowzerp

Getting caught out by a ko shot does not automatically put you back to day 1, in my opinion he's still 1 of, if not the best in europe, Martinez got lucky, it happens-it happenned lewis, Tyson, and more recently Khan.

joepenguin

Dunne-Hyland would make sense in around a years time. Until then Dunne is occupied with securing a world title shot and/or his European title back.
Hyland has proven about as much now as Dunne did when he came back from the states. Give him a few more fights, and at least one victory over a european top 15 / 10 and that would set up Dunne-Hyland for hopefully a European title fight / eliminator.
At the moment Dunnes accomplishments far outweigh the Hylands, but give them time.

Big Ears

joepenguin wrote: »

Dunne-Hyland would make sense in around a years time. Until then Dunne is occupied with securing a world title shot and/or his European title back.
Hyland has proven about as much now as Dunne did when he came back from the states. Give him a few more fights, and at least one victory over a european top 15 / 10 and that would set up Dunne-Hyland for hopefully a European title fight / eliminator.
At the moment Dunnes accomplishments far outweigh the Hylands, but give them time.

Imo Dunne had actually achieved more in the States than Hyland has to date, which puts into perspective how much Hyland is behind.

Walshb wrote: »

Fellas, is Dunne really that far ahead in terms of ranking and class. What has he done to be placed so high above local fighters. I haven't seen a thing since his first fight back. Three wins against 118lb fighters who were hardly world class. This is hardly a class above anyone IMO. I think it's a little insulting to the local fighters here to try and place Bernard so high above them. When he earns it, I will relent; and his Europoean win is well in the past.
Bernard cannot live on his past exploits, he is IMO as low now as he has ever been.

Yes, wins over Machado, Marchiano and Faccio do put him above local fighters, especially when they're so dominant. I'd fancy Machado to beat Hyland, Faccio very may well do so aswell and Marchiano would give him a lot more trouble than he did Dunne, although I think Hyland would come through against Marchiano.

Machado and Faccio despite being Bantamweights are much better fighters than Salem Bouaita and Arsen Matirosian(who the European champion has been defending against), and both Bouaita and Matirosian are ranked European fighters(Bouaita was mandatory). Paulie Hyland isn't even in the European rankings.

Granted he was probably one win away before losing over in America, and he is in the EU rankings(right near the bottom). He is better than some of the guys ranked above him but the overall point I'm getting to is Dunne definitely deserves to be ranked as far as he is ahead of Hyland.

Dunne deserves to be ranked as one of(and possibly the, if he gets the chance again to prove it) best Super-Bantamweight in Europe, Hyland deserves to be somewhere between 15th and 20th at the moment.
This is the case even if we just take Dunne's last 4 fights into account and none of the rest of his career, while overall Machado, Marchiano and Faccio don't mean that much on the World scene, they are significant wins at European level. All of them are much better fighters than the current state of Marc Callaghan, who Paulie's promise(after beating him) is based around.

Hangballlouie

cowzerp wrote: »

yes he is, well ahead-they need to move up to his level, dunne has more skill, power and both amateur and pro experience than hyland, its a no brainer really..Dunne was rated highly before he even went pro for a reason, hyland is ok and will be irish/british level at best.

If your saying that Paul Hyland has less power than Dunne, I would agree. But Patrick was the one I made the point about earlier in the thread, and I doubt anyone would put Dunnes power over Patrick.

Dunne imo is back to the drawing board after his loss to an average boxer in Martinez. A couple of fights and wins at domestic level would help his career and reputation which is shot is some peoples eyes.

And for people to dismiss Paul's amateur credentials is just plain wrong. The guy won eleven Irish titles. That hardly makes for an average amateur career.

He probably would have went to Beijing if he stuck at the amateur game and stayed in the high performance programme.

walshb

I am firm in my belief that any one of the Hyland's beats those three cans that Dunne beat in his comeback, and in a fashion as good or better than Bernard.

Hangballlouie

walshb wrote: »

I am firm in my belief that any one of the Hyland's beats those three cans that Dunne beat in his comeback, and in a fashion as good or better than Bernard.

finally someone talks sense.

cowzerp

hangballlouie wrote: »

finally someone talks sense.

Why? because he agree's with you, Your obviously a hyland or 1 of his mates. or else you know nothing about how good dunne actually is.

i did not realise he had won 11 titles, thats exceptional, i was not knocking his national abilities, but he's never been known outside of irish circles..

walshb

Paul, I have said the same about PRO Dunne fans who at times seem blinded by their devotion to him, clouding their honest judgment; you NOT included.

We have to try leave aside any personal bias towards the fighters and simply judge them
on their talent and achievements and opposition etc.

I know how good Dunne is, or at least I have a view on how good.
He is below world class, considerably so, and is maybe top 3 in Europe; where
we all have to agree, that Europe is pretty ordinary.

That's the best I can do regarding Dunne.

Is that good or great?

I don't think so; but that's just what I see.

I see competitive fights against the best Hyland at 122-126. I really do!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I am firm in my belief that any one of the Hyland's beats those three cans that Dunne beat in his comeback, and in a fashion as good or better than Bernard.

I strongly disagree, but neither of us can/will be proved right till Hyland steps it up.

He's already slipped up at an apparently lower level than those 3 men though.

Hangballlouie

cowzerp wrote: »

Why? because he agree's with you, Your obviously a hyland or 1 of his mates. or else you know nothing about how good dunne actually is.

i did not realise he had won 11 titles, thats exceptional, i was not knocking his national abilities, but he's never been known outside of irish circles..

I know how good Bernard is/can be, I just think by beating boxers at a domestic level, he would actually gain a lot more respect from boxing fans.

IMO I really believe that Patrick Hyland would beat Dunne, maybe he needs a little bit more experience.
As for Paul Hyland, he would run Dunne close, if he agian had more experience. Fighting someone like Pickering as someone said would be a good step for him.

T-K-O

2nd career BS.

Hyland would lose to the likes of Vornin Walstad and the Pickering of a year ago.

Hylands best win is against Callaghan a dude on the level of Sean Hughes who was TKO'ed by the feather fisted Dunne.

It just doesn't add up. Hyland is no where near the level of Dunne

megadodge

For the record, there's an article on the 3 Hylands in last week's Boxing News.

Hangballlouie

megadodge wrote: »

For the record, there's an article on the 3 Hylands in last week's Boxing News.

didn't see it. easons were out. Was it any good?

megadodge

Good article. Gives them a bit of exposure.
They weren't overly happy with their time in England - mainly their treatment by their promoter Jess Harding.
Sorry I can't scan it, my scanner ain't working anymore.

Hangballlouie

megadodge wrote: »

Good article. Gives them a bit of exposure.
They weren't overly happy with their time in England - mainly their treatment by their promoter Jess Harding.
Sorry I can't scan it, my scanner ain't working anymore.

No bother Mega. Thanks anyway.
Did you see Eddie Hyland won on Thursday in New York.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2008/1205/hylande.html
Good to see him in the ring.
He isn't as busy as he should be imo.