Way too many double deckers on Dublin's streets

Cathaoirleach

Buses are a great mode of transport, but it gets to a stage where their abundance actually starts to have a terrible visual impact, and a detrimental effect on the city as a whole. Dublin is a perfect example of this.

Dublin City has the worst public transport system out of all the capitals of the EU. We rely heavily on double decker buses to bring people into the capital, and most major bus routes converge unnecessarily on Dublin's O'Connell Bridge - Dublin's heart. This is most evident during Dublin's rush hour:



As soon as the Luas kicked off, people immediately abandoned Dublin Bus in favor of a reliable and swanky-silver service.

Some Dublin Bus routes have suffered greatly on these Luas routes as a result.

As some of you may already know, the problem with Dublin Bus is that they insist on terminating every major route IN the City Centre. This results in a mass of double deckers, crawling through the city centre, and extremely unreliable timetables on the end-routes as a result.

It has often been refered to as "An Lárism", where every bus terminates or passes through the city centre unnecessarily.

Dublin Bus is of course vital to the city's heartbeat, but now that the people have had a taste of swanky-silver, high-speed trams, they certainly will never return to bus.

Dublin wants and needs Trams, Trains and Metros, and a very cleverly integrated Dublin Bus network. This may take a very long time.

Agent Smith

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

My only objection is the timing of this picture, its at 8:49am, Surely we want buses in town at that time, bringing people to work, rather then people driving in, 1 person to a car.

you'll be pushed to find a bus into the city at that time of the day that isnt at least half full.

Rawr

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Is it my imagination, or is that bus near the corner of O'Connell Bridge and the quay driving *towards* on-coming traffic?

Or is it's livery on backwards

Zoney

Well, there are probably a few core bus routes which would be more attractive, more effective and more highly patronised if replaced by tram/light rail.

KC61

What the OP says is all well and good, but the real problem is that there are too many cars on the roads of Dublin. That's what causes the congestion.

The vast majority of passengers are going to/from the city centre and while it is desireable to have fewer buses going through that area, until there is a viable alternative, there is going to be a need for large numbers of buses to travel into/out of the city.

Metro North and the DART Underground will help, but I cannot see the bus ever being displaced from being the dominant form of public transport in Dublin within the next 50 years.

Zebra3

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Dublin City has the worst public transport system out of all the capitals of the EU.

Worst of all 27 capital cities? :rolleyes:

paulm17781

What they should do (IMO) is diversify bus routes and not have all going via O'Connell st. I suggested this some time ago and the DB brigade came down on me hard but it would make far more sense to have a more diverse system covering a wider area of the city than the current an Lar-ism. The city is more than 3 streets now, DB seem to not realise this.

Cookie_Monster

Rawr wrote: »

Is it my imagination, or is that bus near the corner of O'Connell Bridge and the quay driving *towards* on-coming traffic?

Or is it's livery on backwards

Good spot, it does look like the bus is in completly the wrong place, going the wrong way

Cookie_Monster

It is all to easy to blame Dublin Bus for having a crap service, bad route convergence, "An Larism" etc etc.

However DB are vastly restricted in how they operate and provide a service on two grounds:

1) An incompetant and out dated Governing body (DoT) and route allocation system with an obsession about bringing in private operaters and competition. It has been well documented here with buses allowed/ not allowed to use the Port Tunnel or the Patton Flyer for example.

The lack of ticket integration can also be blamed on the DoT as they are simply unwilling to prioritise it and force through the nessicary changes.

2) The DB union tend to be resistant to any changes made, be they changes in shift patterns and changeover points, route reassigning or any number of new procedures brought in to try to improve the runnings of the company. This is nothing new though and can be seen in any state/ semi-state company.

If DB was an ununionised private entity it would be vastly more efficient than it is now regardless of city traffic or gov inaction and the level of customers using services would reflect this.


EDIT: The decision in recent years to terminate numerous south side routes on the north side (7,145,46a etc) and vice versa (13, 127, 140?) has not helped the traffic in the immediate city centre, O Connell St in particular

IIMII

Rawr wrote: »

Is it my imagination, or is that bus near the corner of O'Connell Bridge and the quay driving *towards* on-coming traffic?

Or is it's livery on backwards

And the one on the right too. Is this a wind up? I'm not surprised by that number of buses - you only have to try crossing D'Olier St to see how bad it is but the photo looks a bit funny. Good shot though

MOH

Zebra3 wrote: »

Worst of all 27 capital cities? :rolleyes:

Worse than at least 13 of them.
And while Nicosia isn't great, it's a fairly small population so it's not really an issue. I'd imagine the same applies to Luxembourg and Valetta.

I've never been to Sofia, Tallinn, Helsinki, Athens, Vilnius, Warsaw, Lisbon, Bucharest, Bratislava or Ljubljana, but I'm sure most of them are better than here.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The decision in recent years to terminate numerous south side routes on the north side (7,145,46a etc) and vice versa (13, 127, 140?) has not helped the traffic in the immediate city centre, O Connell St in particular

Indeed it has not, but what it has done is created several more cross-city links that did not previously exist, which is what passengers were asking for.

People also forget that due to LUAS, several bus termini were rendered redundant (Middle and Lower Abbey Street westbound) and the bus termini had to be relocated, which had knock on effects on other routes, which in turn had to be relocated. Also, some locations which were previously bus termini are no longer so (Poolbeg Street/Burgh Quay/D'Olier Street/College Street/Wellington Quay) as a result of Dublin City Council decisions, some of which were for very sound reasons, but again the buses have to go somewhere.

bazzer

Looking even closer at the picture, it looks as if there's a bus right on the median of O'Connell Street at right angles to the roadway!

L1011

MOH wrote: »

Worse than at least 13 of them.
And while Nicosia isn't great, it's a fairly small population so it's not really an issue. I'd imagine the same applies to Luxembourg and Valetta.

I've never been to Sofia, Tallinn, Helsinki, Athens, Vilnius, Warsaw, Lisbon, Bucharest, Bratislava or Ljubljana, but I'm sure most of them are better than here.

Bratislava's isn't great, would be on a par with Dublin at best. But I believe they've actually started building their metro, we haven't...

zagmund

A lot of the cross-city busses could be elimintated if the relevant bodies got it together and established a proper ticketing system where you could use the same ticket for multiple journeys in a period of time or within zonal boundaries.

For example, if the major city-feeder routes such as the 46A terminated on Stephens Green and a much smaller number of cross-town routes picked up from there and went through the centre it would cut out a whole load of traffic. There is little logic in having 10 vehicles each running @ 10% capacity when you can have 1 vehicle running at 100% instead. In terms of waiting time or extra delays due to only having the 1 vehicle, don't forget that the other 9 vehicles would be adding to the delay, sitting in traffic, setting down, sitting on junctions, etc . . . so it could we work out faster on average.

I came through town on Saturday for the first time in ages and I was amazed to see a similar street-scape as the one above (without the backwards ones of course). The whole College Green area was simply swamped by buses, all getting in each others way as they struggled to weave in and out to their respective stops. I say run less vehicles through that corridor, but make it usefull by having flexible ticketing which allows me to jump on a bus in O'Connell Street, jump off at Trinity and then jump on the bus I really want around the corner.

z

mikemac

Rawr wrote: »

Is it my imagination, or is that bus near the corner of O'Connell Bridge and the quay driving *towards* on-coming traffic?

Or is it's livery on backwards

Well spotted
Something strange going on there!

Rawr

bazzer wrote: »

Looking even closer at the picture, it looks as if there's a bus right on the median of O'Connell Street at right angles to the roadway!

Looking at it even more, this picture doesn't feel right at all. We've got 2 busses in the wrong direction (that one on the right appears out of focus too) . Two more appear to be mounting the kurb on the west side of O'Connell bridge and if you look at that bus just entering the northbound lane of O'Connell Bridge...doesn't it look very 2D...ish?

Now it could still just be my crazy imagination, or just the crappy feed off this camera, but it just doesn't look 'real' to me.

E92

If there are too many double deckers in Dublin, why don't they send a few down to Cork where they would be greatly appreciated, especially as we're only getting half the number we were promised.

Speaking of Dublin, as I'll be there to see Top Gear during the weekend, what would be the best way to get to the RDS by bus from the city centre?

paulm17781

zagmund wrote: »

A lot of the cross-city busses could be elimintated

We don't want to eliminate cross city busses, they're far better than terminating in the centre. What we need is to have the buses use more of the city than just O'Connel st. If they teated the buses more like a train system and had several interchange point in the city, we could have a very effective network.

paulm17781

E92 wrote: »

Speaking of Dublin, as I'll be there to see Top Gear during the weekend, what would be the best way to get to the RDS by bus from the city centre?

4, 5, 7, 8, 45. All go past the RDS.

Zebra3

E92 wrote: »

Speaking of Dublin, as I'll be there to see Top Gear during the weekend, what would be the best way to get to the RDS by bus from the city centre?

DART to Sandymount if you're on the DART line. If there's 3 or 4 of you a taxi from the city centre would be as handy once it's not rush hour.

KC61

zagmund wrote: »

A lot of the cross-city busses could be elimintated if the relevant bodies got it together and established a proper ticketing system where you could use the same ticket for multiple journeys in a period of time or within zonal boundaries.

That ticket already exists - It is the Travel 90.

zagmund

I know the Travel 90 exists, but from what I can see (or used to when I took the bus more often) it's not used a lot. I have an annual bus/rail ticket, so I effectively have this facility, but it's pretty pointless at the moment since if I see a bus on O'Connell Street, the chances are that I will be faster walking around to Trinity than jumping on it and driving around.

z

BrianD

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Buses are a great mode of transport, but it gets to a stage where their abundance actually starts to have a terrible visual impact, and a detrimental effect on the city as a whole. Dublin is a perfect example of this.

Dublin City has the worst public transport system out of all the capitals of the EU. We rely heavily on double decker buses to bring people into the capital, and most major bus routes converge unnecessarily on Dublin's O'Connell Bridge - Dublin's heart. This is most evident during Dublin's rush hour:

there seems to be doubts about whether this picture is genuine. I suspect not.

As soon as the Luas kicked off, people immediately abandoned Dublin Bus in favor of a reliable and swanky-silver service.

not entirely true. The Luas has an advantage over bus in that its route is maibly segregated from traffic. Buses - even with bus lanes - have to operate in traffic.

Some Dublin Bus routes have suffered greatly on these Luas routes as a result.

The 48A nd 44 have suffered as they almost duplicate the green line route as do some routes that duplicate the red line. This is hardly a surprise. Having said that I live on the 48A route and there are plenty of full buses during rush hour.

As some of you may already know, the problem with Dublin Bus is that they insist on terminating every major route IN the City Centre. This results in a mass of double deckers, crawling through the city centre, and extremely unreliable timetables on the end-routes as a result. It has often been refered to as "An Lárism", where every bus terminates or passes through the city centre unnecessarily.

this is changing but let's face it ... it is demand driven. let's face it both tram lines follow the same type of routing. Suburb->City. Metro North will do the same. Metro West will be the only departure from this mode of thinking.

Dublin Bus is of course vital to the city's heartbeat, but now that the people have had a taste of swanky-silver, high-speed trams, they certainly will never return to bus.

That's if you live on one of two lines. There's nothing wrong with Dublin Bus fleet - it is quite a modern fleet and lets face it there's not much difference between the interior of a bus and a tram.

Dublin wants and needs Trams, Trains and Metros, and a very cleverly integrated Dublin Bus network. This may take a very long time.

Yes we do and hopefully not.

Cookie_Monster

I think what is really needed in the city centre is a proper dedicated bus terminus along the lines of what can be seen in numerous european cities.

If for example Nassau street was closed to traffic and setup as a terminus with buses cooming in one end and out the other with island stops in between


ie.

<=================|buses out
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
|=========================<buses in

= Roadway
\ island terminus
| road end

Just a thought, and I'm only using Nassau as an example, not saying it is the best place for it, probably should be applicable along the quays.

Cookie_Monster

BrianD wrote: »

[ There's nothing wrong with Dublin Bus fleet - it is quite a modern fleet .

Surely it must be one of the most modern in Europe, but that is Ireland all over. Lets worry how the bus looks and not the service. I really don't understand why buses over here only last around 10-12 years in general. Look at the UK, they run much older buses without issue and they are generally better kept than over here too.

Why call for a hundred extra buses a year when they are probably taking the same number of perfectly older still useable one out of service at enormous cost to the tax payer. Granted they are not low floor but for 98% of people this makes f*ck all difference

Red Alert

I think we can worry about the visual impact of motor vehicles like buses when we've everything else in order.

Double-deckers are the only sensible way to have more than about 35 seats on a Dublin bus. The bendi-buses proved unsuitable for many routes and were rather unpopular with the public because getting in and out was difficult and there were less seats than standing.

dfx-

I could get the Luas, but don't. Bus stops are much nearer, less full at all times of the day, don't allow for as much fare evasion in my experience and less likely to be attacked at them or on the bus, especially at night.

They are not high speed either. For example, they seem to be unnecessarily slow approaching the Red Cow stop now on the Red Line. Also at night time, there is a bus route that is actually more frequent than the trams. And neither is the Luas swanky. I'll give you silvery.

jesus_thats_gre

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Good spot, it does look like the bus is in completly the wrong place, going the wrong way

The OP obviously photoshopped the picture to back up his argument.. He made up some of the facts, might as well make up pictures

corktina

bazzer wrote: »

Looking even closer at the picture, it looks as if there's a bus right on the median of O'Connell Street at right angles to the roadway!

ah the wonders of the photoshop.....tch tch...fancy trying to prove a point that way....

Buffman

Ye, if your gonna fake a picture you should at least put some effort into it:D

I'd rather see the city centre full of busses than cars anyday.

donvito99

Could we not re paint the buses grey to match the rest of dublin, instead of bright 'Ryanair' yellow and baby blue

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

What they should do (IMO) is diversify bus routes and not have all going via O'Connell st. I suggested this some time ago and the DB brigade came down on me hard but it would make far more sense to have a more diverse system covering a wider area of the city than the current an Lar-ism. The city is more than 3 streets now, DB seem to not realise this.

My memory is that you were asked to suggest an alternative to the one street through the City centre that has any bus priority and you couldn't.

You went on about church st for a while but it was pointed out to you that people stand back and let the buses using that route go by and wait for the O'Connell st bound buses.


Its very easy to criticise DB for over using O'Connell St until you sit down and try to find a usuable alternative that does not involve changes outside of DBs control to make it work.

shltter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Granted they are not low floor but for 98% of people this makes f*ck all difference

So **** the 2% to whom it makes a huge difference.

Of course that would be accepting your figure of 98% which you pulled out of your arse.

If you count all the people with mobility impairment then it is far higher than 2%

Its not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from low floor buses

MiniD

This has to be a first. A thread complaining that there are too many buses in Dublin.

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Buses are a great mode of transport, but it gets to a stage where their abundance actually starts to have a terrible visual impact, and a detrimental effect on the city as a whole. Dublin is a perfect example of this.

A terrible visual impact? Impact on what? How can improved public transport have a detrimental effect on a city? For a city with limited rail links, no subway etc. you have to rely on the bus to move thousands of people every day. You only have to observe how the city comes to a halt at the whiff of a bus strike.

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

As soon as the Luas kicked off, people immediately abandoned Dublin Bus in favor of a reliable and swanky-silver service.

Some Dublin Bus routes have suffered greatly on these Luas routes as a result.

Of course bus usage has dropped on routes like the 48A & 56A, but when passengers are given the option of a frequent service with traffic priority on it's entire route, you can see why Luas is a success.

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

As some of you may already know, the problem with Dublin Bus is that they insist on terminating every major route IN the City Centre. This results in a mass of double deckers, crawling through the city centre, and extremely unreliable timetables on the end-routes as a result.

No, Dublin Bus do not terminate every major route IN the city centre. A quick check will show many routes are cross-city.

Out of interest, how long did you spend photoshopping little buses into your picture?

Cool Mo D

I think some people are in denial about bus congestion through Dublin's main thoroughfares - hence the photoshopping accusations. And there are several alternate routes buses can take to O'Connell St. -> Westmoreland St. -> Grafton St to get across town. Like:

Amiens street/ Gardiner Street -> Talbot Bridge -> Around the back of trinity
return via pearse street and Butt bridge.

Parnell Square -> Parnell Street -> Capel Street (make it bus only) ->Grattan Bridge -> Lord Edward Street

Church Street -> Fr. Mathew Bridge -> High Street.

All perfectly good cross-town routes. Some might be in need of new bus lanes, but that's about it.

I'm also in favour of improving the quays. Buses could run up the north quays, swing around on O'Connell Bridge and head down the south quays very quickly if on street parking on beside the liffey was ended, and bus lanes moved to beside the liffey. This would allow physical seperation of the bus lanes from other traffic flow so they would never have to stop at lights as cars could not turn left into the bus lane. There would have to be gaps in the barrier, and traffic lights, around bridges so that cars could merge in, but not T junctions, as at present.

Also, the new Macken street bridge could open up new cross city routes, though that is still a while off yet. Could be a very long while.

spareman

The simple fact of the matter is people want buses to go to O Connell street, We see it everyday on the rock road people wont take the 45 to town because it terminates on eden quay, Instaed they will wait for a 7/4/4A, I know literally a stones trow from O Connell street, but still not quite O Connell street, maybe people are just too dam lazy to walk anywhere?
Question for op, Why did you photoshop your picture it looks ridiculas?

AlekSmart

The O Connell St routing arguement is assuming "First Cuckoo of Spring" significance.

The reality is that in the aftermath of the O Connell St Integrated Area Plan the city was SUPPOSED to be left with a boulevard completely free from general traffic and with its ethos frimly slanted towards the PEDESTRIAN.

Millions of € were spent over a V E R Y lengthy period which saw the Capitals main street become....well....nothing much really.

Not for the first time in Ireland have we been blighted by the "well connected politician" syndrome as the original continous median was sacrificed at the 11th hour in favour of the I.Callelly memorial taxi rank.

One does not need to be a genius to see the results as Dubliners struggle to accept that removing a Taxi Shelter and seating and replacing them with...NOTHING,can be seen as progress.

Added to the fun and games of watching and listening to Taxi drivers squaring up to each other is also a new departure in Street Theatre which I suppose follows on from the late Diceman.

As for Bus Routing...ah what can one say....Too Many Routes-Not enough Space-Lunatic Cycle Lane locations-Conflict with virtually every other mode of road user guaranteed.

And this timidly accepted by a Company which insists that Safety is it`s Number One Priority.
All I can say is.....Prove It.:rolleyes:

There ARE alternatives.
They WOULD require the full and frank cooperation of City Council and Gardai to operate.

Take a peep up along Jervis St from Ormond Quay-direct dead straight link between Quays and Parnell St with the only major impediment that of On-Street Car Parking (Come on Down DCC).

Consider that Jervis St is actually closer to the Jervis Centre/Ilac Centre than O Connell St for many Bus Users

Consider too that great swathe of An Làr which is the empty quarter in Bus terms,yet which has gained a burgeoning new population of apartment dwellers and stands to expand further with the Fruit/Fish Market schemes (All of which incorporate the compulsory underground CAR parking element-No City Council problems with that then eh...?)

Take a ramble around Jervis St-Kings Inn St-Loftus Lane-Domnick St-Bolton St.
Suspend one`s typically Irish "reasons NOT to do something" attitude and look instead at the amount of space available which would NOT conflict with through traffic and which offers directional options far beyond the Parnell Sq East-West limits we presently operate under.

Perhaps engage your enquiring mind mode and ask why Capel Street has been remodelled in a manner almost designed to repel usage ever again by Bus Pasengers

Enquire timidly as to WHY every retail development in the City Centre was vetted and passed by professional planners (and an occasional passing politician) with not a SINGLE space allocated for PUBLIC TRANSPORT.

Raise your voice mayhap,and ask why the fluich Dublin City Council has not asked the developers of the shiny new O Connell St/Moore St development to reduce their proposed 1,111 (yes 1,111) Car Parking spaces to say hmmmmm ....1,110 and a Bus Bay...Why not 2 Bus Bays...No wait..why not TEN Bus Bays and under cover too.....gosh it`s getting hot in here !!!

NO BLEEDIN INTEREST..That`s why !
So many different BOSSES of this,that and t`udder all meeting in conclave with totally seperate and largely intolerant committee`s and task-forces who never actually produce anything tangible.

Leaf through the Glossy Leaflet produced by the GAA to publicise the benefits of Croke Park as a venue for the Plain People of Ireland to be proud of.

Then,on Big Match or Concert days, listen to Bus Atha Cliath Inspectors frantically telling drivers on the routes which should normally terminate adjacent to The venue to pull back to Parnell Square and let them walk the rest of the way.....Why ?....Cos the native Gael can`t devise a strategy to maintain a Bus Flow into and out of the Staduim Area...it`s not just difficult...Its Impossible.

Now it becomes clear why Ireland did not manage to put a man on the moon before America.

markpb

spareman wrote: »

The simple fact of the matter is people want buses to go to O Connell street, We see it everyday on the rock road people wont take the 45 to town because it terminates on eden quay, Instaed they will wait for a 7/4/4A, I know literally a stones trow from O Connell street, but still not quite O Connell street, maybe people are just too dam lazy to walk anywhere?

On the other hand, what do you think is on O'Connell street that people want to get to? Other than Savoy (and Cineworld which is unserved by buses), Easons, Clearys and access to Henry St, there's honestly not a lot there. Most people go there to a) get another bus or b) meet someone off a bus. It's popular with DB customers because thats where all the buses go.

If you want to go to Busaras or Connolly, the closest most buses will bring you (coming in from the suburbs) is O'Connell St. If you want to go to Cineworld or Henry St, the closest buses will bring you to O'Connell St. If you're travelling cross city, O'Connell st is the best interchange. I'm now saying this is a fault of DB (the closes alternatives aren't great) but if you run all your buses to OCS, it'll become a hub of sorts.

mickoneill30

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think some people are in denial about bus congestion through Dublin's main thoroughfares - hence the photoshopping accusations.

The photoshopping accusations are easy to prove / disprove. The camera is on http://www.dublintraffic.com/

At 9:17am today there were 4 Dublin buses and another white one visible from that camera. I didn't check it earlier. I will next week.

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

My memory is that you were asked to suggest an alternative to the one street through the City centre that has any bus priority and you couldn't.

My memory is I suggested 3 routes and was actually trying to start a conversation to see what routes other people thought could have better routing but you and "the lads" came and killed my thread. Not really the point of this thread other than "The DB brigade" attacking people who suggest alternatives.

paulm17781

spareman wrote: »

The simple fact of the matter is people want buses to go to O Connell street, We see it everyday on the rock road people wont take the 45 to town because it terminates on eden quay, Instaed they will wait for a 7/4/4A, I know literally a stones trow from O Connell street, but still not quite O Connell street, maybe people are just too dam lazy to walk anywhere?

I think you're missing the point there. The 45 leaves people on Eden quay. The 7 will leave people on Pearse st. or top of O'Connell st. In most people's minds, O'Connell st is "the closest to town" so they choose there. I would guarantee if there were a stop on Westmorland st. for the 4/7 it would be the busiest.

Cookie_Monster

shltter wrote: »

So **** the 2% to whom it makes a huge difference.

Of course that would be accepting your figure of 98% which you pulled out of your arse.

If you count all the people with mobility impairment then it is far higher than 2%

Its not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from low floor buses

I'm not saying we shouldn't be buying low floor buses, all i'm saying is we shouldn't be taken perfectly good buses out of service because they are not low floor and spending million replacing them prematurely. They should be run on busy routes in tandem with low floor buses that way the impact would be minimalised. I.e. if every second 46a was a non low floor bus it wouldn't really matter.

And yes it is just a made up figure but I would say the number of people using buses who REQUIRE a low floor bus is much lower than 2%. Bear in mind "require" not "desire for ease".

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm not saying we shouldn't be buying low floor buses, all i'm saying is we shouldn't be taken perfectly good buses out of service because they are not low floor and spending million replacing them prematurely. They should be run on busy routes in tandem with low floor buses that way the impact would be minimalised. I.e. if every second 46a was a non low floor bus it wouldn't really matter.

And yes it is just a made up figure but I would say the number of people using buses who REQUIRE a low floor bus is much lower than 2%. Bear in mind "require" not "desire for ease".

The resaleable value of the Dublin Bus Olympians is actually quite high due to their excellent condition, which does contribute towards the cost of the replacement buses.

However, the low floor fleet does benefit far more than 2% of the population - I think that the photo in the attached link sums up the problem with the non-accessible fleet.

http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/2008/11/23/one-in-twelve-a-thousand-words/

There is some merit in the suggestion that the non-low floor buses operate at peak hour only on high frequency routes, but I do think that the 12 year limit is really as far as you want to go. Running costs and maintenance start increasing rapidly from that point on, and before you know it we would end up with the situation that we had in the 1980s and 1990s with a large fleet of 20 year old and older Van Hool McArdle and Bombardier built buses that were breaking down left right and centre.

_Kaiser_

Red Alert wrote: »

The bendi-buses proved unsuitable for many routes and were rather unpopular with the public because getting in and out was difficult and there were less seats than standing.

I'd say that's more to do with the refusal of Dublin Bus drivers to use rear doors (where fitted - of course since 2000 none of them do! :rolleyes:).
The bendi-buses actually have 2 sets of rear doors if I remember right.

I remember back in 1996 when the "new and improved" CitySwift Route 27 was launched (at a cost of removing the 42C and 27A I might add!) to great fanfare and leaflets coming through the door saying that from now on, you'd enter at the front of the bus and exit at the rear/middle doors - the buses were even stickered accordingly!

Of course, it never actually happened, so instead we continued with the increased dwell times, made even worse by the ridiculous decision to stop buying dual-door buses altogether.

No doubt there'll be someone alone to point out that a lot of the stops aren't suitable for dual-door operation, but if they can be used abroad with no issue then I fail to see why it can't work here. And even if this is true, then why on earth where the bendi-buses even bought in the first place because they ARE a nightmare to get on/off of with high loadings!

Maybe for their next slogan, they can go with Dublin Bus, the choice for those with no other option

KC61

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd say that's more to do with the refusal of Dublin Bus drivers to use rear doors (where fitted - of course since 2000 none of them do! :rolleyes:).
The bendi-buses actually have 2 sets of rear doors if I remember right.

I remember back in 1996 when the "new and improved" CitySwift Route 27 was launched (at a cost of removing the 42C and 27A I might add!) to great fanfare and leaflets coming through the door saying that from now on, you'd enter at the front of the bus and exit at the rear/middle doors - the buses were even stickered accordingly!

Of course, it never actually happened, so instead we continued with the increased dwell times, made even worse by the ridiculous decision to stop buying dual-door buses altogether.

No doubt there'll be someone alone to point out that a lot of the stops aren't suitable for dual-door operation, but if they can be used abroad with no issue then I fail to see why it can't work here. And even if this is true, then why on earth where the bendi-buses even bought in the first place because they ARE a nightmare to get on/off of with high loadings!

Maybe for their next slogan, they can go with Dublin Bus, the choice for those with no other option

The articulated buses were purchased at the behest of the Dublin Transportation Office, rather than by choice by Dublin Bus. Not one single infrastructural improvement was made by Dublin City Council to facilitate their introduction, which meant that at the vast majority of bus stops they are unable to pull in safely alongside the kerb, i.e. with the full bus length parallel and adjacent to the kerb.

Therefore the rear half was (and often is) generally sticking out into the general traffic length, precluding the use of the rear doors.

In other cities (such as London) every stop served by articulated buses has a lengthened bus stop area marked out on the road to facilitate the buses reaching the kerb safely.

That is the principal reason why these buses have not been as successful as they could have been, coupled with the fare structure foisted on Dublin Bus by DoT that does not facilitate a "buy your ticket in advance" procedure.

Indeed many of the stops in Dublin do not have enough space for a normal double-deck to pull in safely.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

However, the low floor fleet does benefit far more than 2% of the population - I think that the photo in the attached link sums up the problem with the non-accessible fleet.

http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/2008/11/23/one-in-twelve-a-thousand-words/

I know they do, I was just making the point that as a requirment (i.e. wheelchair can't get up the steps of old ones), it would be much lower.

Great photo too.

I also find it kinda funny that up to about 99-2000 there was never a need for them, then suddenly it became PC.

MOH

bazzer wrote: »

Looking even closer at the picture, it looks as if there's a bus right on the median of O'Connell Street at right angles to the roadway!

I'm blind, I can't see it.

Unless you're talking about the one that's turning from Westmoreland St into D'Olier St.

Which I think you are, given that you can't even see O'Connell St in this picture :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

This is an example from the Planet Neptune of how a RESPONSIBLE Public Transport Operator meets its Disability Act Requirements AND makes no apologies about it :

http://www.lothianbuses.com/Prams.php

PS: Its not ACTUALLY Neptune......It`s Edinburgh

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I know they do, I was just making the point that as a requirment (i.e. wheelchair can't get up the steps of old ones), it would be much lower.

Great photo too.

I also find it kinda funny that up to about 99-2000 there was never a need for them, then suddenly it became PC.

Low-floor buses only became available in mass production lines for single decks in the mid 1990s and for double decks at the end of 1998, although the entire production of same in 1999 was for the London market and all three manufacturers, i.e. Volvo, Dennis and DAF specifically told Dublin Bus that they could not supply these buses until they had completed the orders for London, which meant that the first deliveries were delayed until 2000.

Dublin Bus used this time to rigourously evaluate demonstration models of the three types available in public service, whereby they could arrive at an informed decision in purchasing the buses. This led to the ALX400 being the chosen model.

Helpfully, photos are at the following link that Gabriel Conway (Aquavid) has kindly provided us with.....

http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/one-in-twelve-the-lowfloor-trials-of-1999/

bazzer

MOH wrote: »

I'm blind, I can't see it.

Unless you're talking about the one that's turning from Westmoreland St into D'Olier St.

Which I think you are, given that you can't even see O'Connell St in this picture :rolleyes:

So it is. As you can see, I don't have a good sense of direction!