Local Elections 2009

Sully

I see the Kilkenny folk have begun their discussion on the 2009 local elections. Probably expect to see campaigning starting early new year from selected candidates. Recent opinion polls have seen a fair bit of damage done to the current government and rightly so. Other party's have improved or remained the same with the biggest change being Fine Gael doing very well in the polls. I am sure this will have a knock on affect when people vote in the local and European elections next year.

Who will/wont you be voting for this year and why? Do you vote for this part usually or has recent times changed your voting preference? Will issues like the boundary, retail developments (or lack thereof) etc. be a decision factor in who you will/wont be voting for?

Ill run the same poll/discussion in the County forum which will include the town council.

KingLoser

Do you vote for this part usually or has recent times changed your voting preference?

Big time. The greens will never again get a vote from me.

Haven't decided which way I'll vote next year, but I'm looking forward to them trying to convince me.

Sully

KingLoser wrote: »

Big time. The greens will never again get a vote from me.

Who did you vote for in Waterford? Wasnt Brendan the only one who is for Greens in Waterford? Doesnt seem to do well at all.

Haven't decided which way I'll vote next year, but I'm looking forward to them trying to convince me.

Any party you will rule out? If so, why?

KingLoser

Aye, there was very little notion of a serial objector the last time I voted Green, and to be honest it was the party I voted for rather than the individual, I had no idea who Brendan McCann was at the time! Yeah... never again, for reasons related to McCann, and also reasons related to the failure of the Irish Greens in national government.

I'll rule out Fíne Gael, because I think they've done very little for us in the time they have represented Waterford City and the blind support given to them down here is eerily similar to that given to FF elsewhere.

I'd like to see more Labour and less Independents personally, but my vote will be decided by the answers to my questions given by the candidates themselves. I'm interested to see how the ambitious Project 2014 is being looked at in the current climate, and how potential Councillers feel is the best way to exploit the historic values of the city, and what steps they think should be taken to improve the dreadful public transport infrastructure.

My oh my, I went serious there. Eh... boobies.

robtri

KingLoser wrote: »

My oh my, I went serious there. Eh... boobies.

way too serious for this hour of the morning........

longshanks

hooray for boobies.

doubt i'll vote fine fail or fine gael. cant see meself ticking mccann's box either. maybe labour or independent, wouldn't go near the sinn fein dirtbirds. i'll probably have more of an idea when the canvassing starts, after i've heard the various lies and promises from all concerned

SUNGOD

wont be voting sinn fein as i had a nasty expierence with a bunch of knuckle dragging sinn fein supporters who stopped me from getting petrol in a garage in ferrybank some time ago something about sinn fein feeling passionate about the shell to sea campaign.
"you dont care about this situation so f*** off and leave real people live their lives" i hinted
and nothing to do with media coverage of course.. anyway the same "activist's" knew f*** all about the campaign
must be hard for real sinn fein political people to have some members of their party still acting hired henchmen

but then again at least they cause me to react .. the rest of them are very beige/bland/wishy washy/samey

Mickdots

Im going to vote independent. One and one only to John Halligan, no second pref. Brilliant politician!! Didn’t vote for him before because of the Workers Party but certainly getting my number 1 next time around!!

If you look at the resent political turmoil in the Dail when the independents kicked up a fuss and shoved their weight around, it goes to show how an independent would be hugely valuable to Waterford in the Next Government. I think he is our man for it!!

Sully

Mickdots wrote: »

If you look at the resent political turmoil in the Dail when the independents kicked up a fuss and shoved their weight around, it goes to show how an independent would be hugely valuable to Waterford in the Next Government. I think he is our man for it!!

That was simply because the government didn't have the numbers to ignore him though.

Mickdots

exactly and whats to say its going to be any way different next time around!!

nkay1985

SUNGOD wrote: »

wont be voting sinn fein as i had a nasty expierence with a bunch of knuckle dragging sinn fein supporters who stopped me from getting petrol in a garage in ferrybank some time ago something about sinn fein feeling passionate about the shell to sea campaign.
"you dont care about this situation so f*** off and leave real people live their lives" i hinted
and nothing to do with media coverage of course.. anyway the same "activist's" knew f*** all about the campaign
must be hard for real sinn fein political people to have some members of their party still acting hired henchmen

but then again at least they cause me to react .. the rest of them are very beige/bland/wishy washy/samey

I'm sorry now but can you tell me how you came to the conclusions highlighted in bold above?

I remember when this campaign was at its height and you had all other political parties wanting nothing to do with it, not lending those ordinary people any support.

And, yes, there are still some undesirables who will sit in a pub on a Saturday night, sing rebel songs and go on about how they support Sinn Féin but they're not real party members. The modern Sinn Féin party members are normal, everyday people who are entitled to make an informed political decision.

I'll be voting Sinn Féin because I know for a fact how hard-working Joe Kelly and David Cullinane are in Waterford. Even if you don't agree with Sinn Féin policy, it's hard to criticise these two politicians. National elections you vote for the party, local elections you vote for the person.

And, in fairness to him, John Halligan is a decent man too. Works hard for his ward, which is all you can really ask of someone, and is more than I can say for a large number of our local representatives.

Partizan

Mickdots wrote: »

Im going to vote independent. One and one only to John Halligan, no second pref. Brilliant politician!! Didn’t vote for him before because of the Workers Party but certainly getting my number 1 next time around!!

If you look at the resent political turmoil in the Dail when the independents kicked up a fuss and shoved their weight around, it goes to show how an independent would be hugely valuable to Waterford in the Next Government. I think he is our man for it!!

You're in Ward 2 you dope and you voted for him when he was in the WP.

Mod, there is no Workers' Party option here even though they have an outgoing elected representative and have 3 candidates running in the city.

Mickdots

Partizan wrote: »

You're in Ward 2 you dope and you voted for him when he was in the WP.

Mod, there is no Workers' Party option here even though they have an outgoing elected representative and have 3 candidates running in the city.

yawn!!!

you might as well put it up there for him, it will be there last election. leave them go out on a high with there 1 vote on boards.ie :D

nkay1985

Partizan wrote: »

You're in Ward 2 you dope and you voted for him when he was in the WP.

Mod, there is no Workers' Party option here even though they have an outgoing elected representative and have 3 candidates running in the city.

There's three running, is there? Obviously Davy is running again, but who are the others can you tell me?


Looking through the old ward 3, it'll be interesting which one of the following will lose their seat with only 5 seats instead of the old six:
Mary O’Halloran FG, Seamus Ryan Lab, John Halligan formerly WP now Ind., Tom Murphy, FF, David Cullinane SF and Laurence Cha O’Neill Ind

Ryan, Cullinane and Halligan were miles out in front last time so it's hard to see the loser coming from there. Cha and Tom Murphy are there so long that it's difficult to imagine them not getting elected. Which only leaves Mary O'Halloran, who didn't have an easy time getting in last time out. She has, of course, increased her profile hugely with her positions as mayor and deputy mayor which might bring her into serious contention. This ward will certainly be exciting come the day of the count.

And it'll also be interesting to see who picks up the extra seat in the old ward 2. I'd imagine some parties will run an extra candidate, as well as people who have been ousted in recent elections, such as Michael Ivory, running again.

I wonder who will run for FF in ward 1, where Sean Dower lost his seat last time out. I think all incumbents are running again.

Sully

I think there is a new candidate for FG but not 100% sure.

longshanks

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm sorry now but can you tell me how you came to the conclusions highlighted in bold above?

I remember when this campaign was at its height and you had all other political parties wanting nothing to do with it, not lending those ordinary people any support.

And, yes, there are still some undesirables who will sit in a pub on a Saturday night, sing rebel songs and go on about how they support Sinn Féin but they're not real party members. The modern Sinn Féin party members are normal, everyday people who are entitled to make an informed political decision.

I'll be voting Sinn Féin because I know for a fact how hard-working Joe Kelly and David Cullinane are in Waterford. Even if you don't agree with Sinn Féin policy, it's hard to criticise these two politicians. National elections you vote for the party, local elections you vote for the person.

And, in fairness to him, John Halligan is a decent man too. Works hard for his ward, which is all you can really ask of someone, and is more than I can say for a large number of our local representatives.

he probably came to that conclusion from the fact that anytime sinn fein stage their somewhat predictable, bandwagon jumping protests they call on the celtic jersey scumbag brigade to fill out their numbers. these so called 'normal, everyday people who are entitled to make an informed political decision' aren't really the protest type.
while they may be hard working, joe kelly is an annoying mouthpiece from what i can see. and david cullinane loves waterford so much he decided to move to kilkenny.
i'll agree with you about john halligan though, a genuine man and good representative. i'd imagine him to be a good independent

nkay1985

longshanks wrote: »

he probably came to that conclusion from the fact that anytime sinn fein stage their somewhat predictable, bandwagon jumping protests they call on the celtic jersey scumbag brigade to fill out their numbers. these so called 'normal, everyday people who are entitled to make an informed political decision' aren't really the protest type.
while they may be hard working, joe kelly is an annoying mouthpiece from what i can see. and david cullinane loves waterford so much he decided to move to kilkenny.
i'll agree with you about john halligan though, a genuine man and good representative. i'd imagine him to be a good independent

With regard to the first highlighted point, you're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree. I think he's quite articulate and even-mannered.

With regard to the second, this is a ridiculous, sensationalist statement that has no bearing on the issue at hand. Not everything is within our control. Local politicians are entitled to their personal life, the same as you or I are. So long as this doesn't affect their ability to do their elected duties, it makes no difference to me. And David Cullinane does his work so it's not an issue.

Sully

Not a sinn fein fan at all but who is joe kelly? Never head of him. Heard of David, seems to be decent enough chap from reading bits and pieces but I look at both the party and person when deciding who to vote for and SF people wont be getting my vote anytime soon. Personally find it a bit odd for a councillor of a city/county to not actually live there.

SUNGOD

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm sorry now but can you tell me how you came to the conclusions highlighted in bold above?

I remember when this campaign was at its height and you had all other political parties wanting nothing to do with it, not lending those ordinary people any support.

And, yes, there are still some undesirables who will sit in a pub on a Saturday night, sing rebel songs and go on about how they support Sinn Féin but they're not real party members. The modern Sinn Féin party members are normal, everyday people who are entitled to make an informed political decision.

I'll be voting Sinn Féin because I know for a fact how hard-working Joe Kelly and David Cullinane are in Waterford. Even if you don't agree with Sinn Féin policy, it's hard to criticise these two politicians. National elections you vote for the party, local elections you vote for the person.

And, in fairness to him, John Halligan is a decent man too. Works hard for his ward, which is all you can really ask of someone, and is more than I can say for a large number of our local representatives.

firstly i did not critise these politicans and if you read my post you would realise that my gripe is with their "rent a crowd" and i will not be voting for a party who imploys such tactics to highlight their supposed intrests.

im not doubting joe kelly or david cullinane are very hard working but maybe they are very hard working for the wrong party ....yeah its so crazy i could be on to something


oh and the reason i came to my conclusions is that the hench men i was refering to would not be the brightest of fellas ( think forrest gumps slow cousin) so i doubt they had a good grasp of of the current political situation

nkay1985

Sully wrote: »

Not a sinn fein fan at all but who is joe kelly? Never head of him. Heard of David, seems to be decent enough chap from reading bits and pieces but I look at both the party and person when deciding who to vote for and SF people wont be getting my vote anytime soon. Personally find it a bit odd for a councillor of a city/county to not actually live there.

Joe Kelly is the Sinn Fein councillor for the old ward 1. He got elected last time out, effectively taking the seat from Seán Dower. He finished third in the four seater.

SUNGOD wrote: »

firstly i did not critise these politicans and if you read my post you would realise that my gripe is with their "rent a crowd" and i will not be voting for a party who imploys such tactics to highlight their supposed intrests.

im not doubting joe kelly or david cullinane are very hard working but maybe they are very hard working for the wrong party ....yeah its so crazy i could be on to something


oh and the reason i came to my conclusions is that the hench men i was refering to would not be the brightest of fellas ( think forrest gumps slow cousin) so i doubt they had a good grasp of of the current political situation

My point is that it's not only the so-called "rent a crowd" that were part of that protest. The two current councillors were involved, as were other party members. If you have a problem with the form of protest, then you'd always have a problem with Sinn Féin, as they've always been a radical party and protest in such a manner, so that's fair enough as you're entitled to this opinion.

jmcc

McCann is toxic for the Greens. I think that Waterford people need something more than what is, in effect, student politics. If the Greens don't provide the people with a better candidates then there will be a drift towards the other parties. SF and Labour may benefit. I'm not sure that FF will recover well from the absolute massacre a few years ago - it depends on the economy.

Regards...jmcc

Ri na hEireann

I'd expect FG will retain their majority in the city.

In the old ward one Hilary will top the poll again and I reckon the same councillors will be returned depending on how the new streets in the ward vote. There could be the possiblity of a surprise FF return in this ward depending on what way they run their candidates. Davy Walshes seat may be in trouble here. It's hard to call though.

Ward 2 now Waterford east will be quiet interesting given the extra seat. It will mean a new councillor obviously but it's hard to see where this candidate will come from. FG should be keeping their seats but are still looking for another candidate to run here. Roche and Daniels will be grand as will Walsh. The only seat under threat may be a FG one but with the extra seat in the ward it's doubtful. Jim D'arcy has higlighted his concern that the lost city centre streets may handicap him but only time will tell really. FF could gain here as could SF....McCann , I think had damaged himself too much with his serial objecting and the fact he's a green which isn't gonna blow well in June.

Ward 3 wil be interesting and it will be equally interesting to see what happens to Halligans WP vote and how much of it stays with him.

Partizan

Overall I see not much change. What will happen is that FF could very well end up with no councillors on the City Council.

Taking a look at Ward 1 and its as you are. The only way Davy Walsh would look like losing a seat would be in the case of a FF revival in the guise of Dower. (Walsh will pick up transfer votes from right across the board which will see him home. He got 500 1st preference last time out and in the last General Election the WP increased their vote in Ward 1). That aint going to happen given the downturn and the anger out there towards the goverment. The protest vote will be mopped up by FG, Labour, SF and the WP. No change.

Ward 2 ditto, no change.

Ward 3. Someone will lose the seat. Its a toss up between Tom Murphy (FF) and Cha O'Neill (Ind). The big 3, Halligan, Ryan and Cullinane will be safe, however Halligan will not get the 1,200 1st preference like last time and his vote could very well be nearly cut in half. The WP have a good candidate in Willie Moore a local community activist in the Ballybeg/Larchville/Lisduggan area. He will get a big personal vote as well as the WP one. Overall FF or Ind (-1) WP (+1)

Ri na hEireann

bump.

Just wondering. Has anyone been canvassed by a candidate yet?

Bards

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

bump.

Just wondering. Has anyone been canvassed by a candidate yet?

Only by flyer through Letterbox (Cllr Darcy)

Ri na hEireann

Bards wrote: »

Only by flyer through Letterbox (Cllr Darcy)

Same...well a flyer from D'arcy and Jack Walsh.

Bards

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Same...well a flyer from D'arcy and Jack Walsh.

I hope you kept Darcy's one.. he has 100% guaranteed the WIT University re-designation by Enda if FG are elected to Govt. Just something we can shove back in his face if he fails to deliver this important economic driver for the S.E

Sully

Bards wrote: »

I hope you kept Darcy's one.. he has 100% guaranteed the WIT University re-designation by Enda if FG are elected to Govt. Just something we can shove back in his face if he fails to deliver this important economic driver for the S.E

Will that swing your vote? As in, will you vote for him due to his party policy?

Ri na hEireann

Bards wrote: »

I hope you kept Darcy's one.. he has 100% guaranteed the WIT University re-designation by Enda if FG are elected to Govt. Just something we can shove back in his face if he fails to deliver this important economic driver for the S.E

It's not him guaranteeing it. It's Fine Gael...You can shove it back in the party's face if they don't deliver it. Jim had sod all to do with getting FG to make it policy. It was down to Sen.Paudie Coffey and Sen.Maurice Cummins. As far as I know Deasy may have played a limited role also.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Will that swing your vote? As in, will you vote for him due to his party policy?

FF will have had 15 years to deliver University. If they don;t have it done by 2012, I would vote the Loony Left Party if I knew they would right the wrong that has failed this region for so long...

So to answer your question, Will I chnage my vote from FF to FG if I can be sure they living up to their promise. then the answer is a resounding yes

Sully

Bards wrote: »

FF will have had 15 years to deliver University. If they don;t have it done by 2012, I would vote the Loony Left Party if I knew they would right the wrong that has failed this region for so long...

So to answer your question, Will I chnage my vote from FF to FG if I can be sure they living up to their promise. then the answer is a resounding yes

So your originally a FF voter then? With no issues voting for them this time around?! (Excluding University)

Bards

not originally a FF voter, I am more of a swing voter and will vote strategically - how would you respond to this in way of voting?

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0460/D.0460.199601300112.html

Van

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

bump.

Just wondering. Has anyone been canvassed by a candidate yet?

I got a leaflet in the door from Seamus Ryan the other day. He is the only one I have seen around

Sully

Bards wrote: »

not originally a FF voter, I am more of a swing voter and will vote strategically - how would you respond to this in way of voting?

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0460/D.0460.199601300112.html

Im not sure I fully understand what you mean by that link and asking me to comment?!

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Im not sure I fully understand what you mean by that link and asking me to comment?!

Brendan Howlin is from Wexford and is a Labour TD. Even thought THe M9 was chosen as the main route from Waterford to Dublin. he wouldn't give it his backing, as he wanted the N11 to be the main route from Waterford to Dublin

This is the same Govt who moved the Director of the IDA S.E to Cork in the hope that wexford would get more jobs - go figure

largebottle

Sully you kicked this off , what are your preferences going into the locals...

largebottle

I think Labour will be the big winners in the next election ...FG will obviously do well but it will be interesting to see if the "Enda Factor" has an impact..

The Greens are in danger of being decimated by their association with FF.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

Brendan Howlin is from Wexford and is a Labour TD. Even thought THe M9 was chosen as the main route from Waterford to Dublin. he wouldn't give it his backing, as he wanted the N11 to be the main route from Waterford to Dublin

This is the same Govt who moved the Director of the IDA S.E to Cork in the hope that wexford would get more jobs - go figure

Okay but that doesnt explain why you voted FF out of all the other partys?!

largebottle wrote: »

Sully you kicked this off , what are your preferences going into the locals...

FG and Labour man myself. Ill be giving the greens a vote in the town council alright as I know the chap running and I think he will do very well if elected.

largebottle

fair enough I suppose, although I have always found that mix a little unusual myself.

Historiaclly FG would have been considered the party of big business and large farmers ...and would be considered further to the right of FF . Thus I never really got the link with Labour. Perhaps this link is a result of so many years in opposition... although a life long labour voter , I could never quiet bring myself to comply with the voting pacts and give 2nd pref's to the "blue shirts".... If they have to power share surely FF makes a better bedfellow!!

Sully

I support Labour and FG because they make a lot more sense and seem to be offering a decent alternative to FF/Greens. Greens haven't shown much potential and I firmly believe its time for a change and the current government are not doing a good job. I don't think labour would go into government with FF but I wouldn't hold out much hope!

SF wouldn't get a vote from me. Independents would but of course it depends who.

Harolds+

Whaaa...Fine Gael - 25%

they did nothing for this country, nevermind the economy in their history of "running" the country

Garret Fitzgerald. He has the face of an unmade bed.

Enda Kenny. He is the stunt double of Joe 90.

FG had more leaders than Israel had corrupt politicians!

I will vote for an Indo, Labour, Leftie and then Lesbian/Green Party

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

I support Labour and FG because they make a lot more sense and seem to be offering a decent alternative to FF/Greens. Greens haven't shown much potential and I firmly believe its time for a change and the current government are not doing a good job. I don't think labour would go into government with FF but I wouldn't hold out much hope!

SF wouldn't get a vote from me. Independents would but of course it depends who.

Labour certainly don't make any sense, and a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition means that Labour will water down Fine Gael's economic policies and make them next to useless - like they did in the 80s.

Joan Burton was on radio today and she hadn't a bulls notion what she was talking about. Listening to her you'd think that the Banking crisis was only happening in Ireland and that borrowing another couple of Billion would sort everything out.

We've seen the US and UK Governments pump hundreds of Billions into failed Banks, and then see no benefit. The Irish Government saw off the speculators by bringing in the guarantee, and has prevented a meltdown of the AIB and BOI by ensuring that Anglo doesn't go into liquidation. But they haven't had to put their hand in their pocket yet.

I was just watching Questions and Answers there a minute ago and Eamon Gilmore waffled and waffled when he was asked to rule out going in with FF. All he would say was that he was committed to getting them out, but he wouldn't commit to keeping them out. The audience were in stitches with his carry on.

As a Green I am naturally going to disagree with your contention that they haven't shown much potential. I think they have achieved way more than would have been expected. The changes they are making are mainly low key and technical - often relating to how the Officials go about their work behind the scenes - and they will be of huge benefit in changing for the better how the Government goes about doing things.

These are things that won't get them many votes, but they are things that have been neglected by previous Governments for precisely that reason.

We'd all love to see them making high profile changes in sexy areas, but a lot of that stuff is purely cosmetic. We've had decades of that type of photo-op politics, and it doesn't deliver at the end of the day.

But you can forget about Labour unless you want to see us return to the worst days of the 80s all over again.

Sully

Do I detect a bit of support for the current government from you Stan?!

The Labour issue is an interesting one. I have been a bit hesitant but feel that they offer more potential then anyone else bar some independents. Finance wise I wouldn't like them to have any control and I don't like the way Gilmore has yet again refused to answer directly the question. I get a sense of desperation from him. I felt that from what I heard from them they seemed to be doing a good job but ill be honest and haven't focused as much attention and notice the detail you commented on in regards to Joan. I just feel that they would be a good party for FG to go into government with as I just don't know if they can get in as a majority. I missed Q&A today but ill catch it online.

As regards to the Greens. The city has a green candidate who a people have a dislike for due to his take on planning applications. Labeled by local press and many websites as a "serial objector". Never met the chap personally but he probably gets more press attention then any other green candidate in the country! I don't think he has been doing that well in elections either. There time in government seems to be all talk and little action. It appears that they shout but are really powerless.

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Do I detect a bit of support for the current government from you Stan?!

I'm delighted to have Green Ministers in there making important changes.

I would naturally prefer to have 86 Green TDs so that we could throw out all the legacy nonsense that the three big parties give out about in opposition, but don't bother to change when they have the power.

Most of the stuff the Greens are concentrating on is unsexy, technical, and of no interest to journalists, so the public don't get to hear about it. All we ever hear about is light bulbs and the claim that the new VRT rates caused the collapse of the global car industry.

We don't hear about how Dick Roche (and Martin Cullen before him) was trying to prevent County Councils from implementing better insulation standards in buildings because it would have been bad for Roadstone (a major Fianna Fail supporter). One of the first things John Gormley did was improve the standards by 40% straight away, and go to 60% next year. This measure will mean people will have to spend less on heating their homes, not just this year, but every year. Not very sexy, but it means more money in people's pockets (as will the low energy lightbulbs).

The Labour issue is an interesting one. I have been a bit hesitant but feel that they offer more potential then anyone else bar some independents. Finance wise I wouldn't like them to have any control and I don't like the way Gilmore has yet again refused to answer directly the question. I get a sense of desperation from him. I felt that from what I heard from them they seemed to be doing a good job but ill be honest and haven't focused as much attention and notice the detail you commented on in regards to Joan. I just feel that they would be a good party for FG to go into government with as I just don't know if they can get in as a majority. I missed Q&A today but ill catch it online.

Tony O'Reilly is getting a lot of heat from the Greens over the carry on with the Waterford Glass Pensions. A lot of the pro-Labour puff pieces we're seeing in the Independent at the moment are geared towards getting them to keep quiet on the issue. You can't win an Election in Ireland without the Independent. Just ask Bertie (or John Bruton).

As regards to the Greens. The city has a green candidate who a people have a dislike for due to his take on planning applications. Labeled by local press and many websites as a "serial objector". Never met the chap personally but he probably gets more press attention then any other green candidate in the country! I don't think he has been doing that well in elections either.

He might be a "serial objector", but his track record with An Bord Pleanala is much better than the planners in Waterford City Council. They keep allowing developments that breach their own City Development Plan, and McCann keeps calling them on it.

One of the local newspapers got up on his back, but look at where their office is. A local auctioneer got up on his back, but look at who his clients are. A local shopkeeper got up on his back, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

We don't hear the voices of the people living in these apartments whose clothes are going mouldy because there is no ventilation, or the people who have to move out when they have children because there is no storage space - which makes these communities transient and prevents the building up of a sense of community, which was a key objective of the City Development Plan.

If the Council didn't want McCann objecting all the time then all they had to do was change the City Development Plan to accommodate the developers - but that would have breached National and EU Planning Laws, so they tried to do it on the quiet, and McCann called them on it.

There time in government seems to be all talk and little action. It appears that they shout but are really powerless.

The problem I see is that they don't do enough shouting. Most people are unaware of, or uninterested in, the types of procedural and technical changes they are making (such as getting cross-party committees to propose legislation, or having backbench TDs with technical knowledge of an issue providing advice to Ministers, clamping down on the systematic waste of money, Etc.).

Sully

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'm delighted to have Green Ministers in there making important changes.

I would naturally prefer to have 86 Green TDs so that we could throw out all the legacy nonsense that the three big parties give out about in opposition, but don't bother to change when they have the power.

I meant the FF part. Of course I know you are delighted to see the Greens in government

Most of the stuff the Greens are concentrating on is unsexy, technical, and of no interest to journalists, so the public don't get to hear about it. All we ever hear about is light bulbs and the claim that the new VRT rates caused the collapse of the global car industry.

We don't hear about how Dick Roche (and Martin Cullen before him) was trying to prevent County Councils from implementing better insulation standards in buildings because it would have been bad for Roadstone (a major Fianna Fail supporter). One of the first things John Gormley did was improve the standards by 40% straight away, and go to 60% next year. This measure will mean people will have to spend less on heating their homes, not just this year, but every year. Not very sexy, but it means more money in people's pockets (as will the low energy lightbulbs).


Tony O'Reilly is getting a lot of heat from the Greens over the carry on with the Waterford Glass Pensions. A lot of the pro-Labour puff pieces we're seeing in the Independent at the moment are geared towards getting them to keep quiet on the issue. You can't win an Election in Ireland without the Independent. Just ask Bertie (or John Bruton).

You are right. Not something you read about in the papers.

He might be a "serial objector", but his track record with An Bord Pleanala is much better than the planners in Waterford City Council. They keep allowing developments that breach their own City Development Plan, and McCann keeps calling them on it.

One of the local newspapers got up on his back, but look at where their office is. A local auctioneer got up on his back, but look at who his clients are. A local shopkeeper got up on his back, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

A lot of people would object and say that he goes that bit to far. He seems to be the watchman and objects to everything. Fair enough some of his points are fair but sometimes people get annoyed that he objects to the simplest of things. Its probably why he doesnt do very well in election.

We don't hear the voices of the people living in these apartments whose clothes are going mouldy because there is no ventilation, or the people who have to move out when they have children because there is no storage space - which makes these communities transient and prevents the building up of a sense of community, which was a key objective of the City Development Plan.

If the Council didn't want McCann objecting all the time then all they had to do was change the City Development Plan to accommodate the developers - but that would have breached National and EU Planning Laws, so they tried to do it on the quiet, and McCann called them on it.

If the council are that bad then why is he the only one fighting for it so hard? Why hasn't he done something else about it besides causing companies to avoid moving to Waterford or developing here? If the council are the problem (and note that An Board Pleanala dont always agree with him) then why isnt something being done to fix the root of the problem? You should have a look back over a few of the debates about him on this forum and it might give you an idea of why people disagree with his objections. Some posters made some good points rather then just the general waffle.

Off topic slightly, but the Board have been claimed to be negative towards Tramore with all the recent objections (iv noted two which I agree with and I am not familiar with the others) to the councils planning acceptance given to projects. Do you support the two councillors shouting the loudest about this? They have been fair to Waterford in terms of listening to the public, developers and objectors and coming to a decent conclusion but a few mins down the road and its claimed they are negative towards the town with no balance it would seem.

The problem I see is that they don't do enough shouting. Most people are unaware of, or uninterested in, the types of procedural and technical changes they are making (such as getting cross-party committees to propose legislation, or having backbench TDs with technical knowledge of an issue providing advice to Ministers, clamping down on the systematic waste of money, Etc.).

Well the recent controversy with one Green member sending out a letter talking about pulling out of government would indicate that things were not so well in the camp! Its a shame they dont shout as loud. Head over to the Politics forum for the bigger picture and you will see that Greens will equally get a hammering even though they are not the cause of the problems.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

...How Many.. from my understanding ABP - Waterford City Council planning decisions have one of the lowest overturn rate in the country

That man is a menance and has cost this City jobs

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

A lot of people would object and say that he goes that bit to far. He seems to be the watchman and objects to everything. Fair enough some of his points are fair but sometimes people get annoyed that he objects to the simplest of things. Its probably why he doesnt do very well in election.

I suppose the first thing to say is that he doesn't always "object". Much of what he does is commenting on elements of a proposal that don't meet the requirements of the City Development Plan, National Law, or EU Law. Some of it is black and white, and more of it is opinion or interpretation.

It is something he is passionate about, and in a sense he is right. These buildings are going to be around for decades, so why not get them right? We can see examples all over the place of developments that should never have been built, or where the quality of life of the people living there is diminished because a developer took shortcuts.

If the council are that bad then why is he the only one fighting for it so hard? Why hasn't he done something else about it besides causing companies to avoid moving to Waterford or developing here? If the council are the problem (and note that An Board Pleanala dont always agree with him) then why isnt something being done to fix the root of the problem? You should have a look back over a few of the debates about him on this forum and it might give you an idea of why people disagree with his objections. Some posters made some good points rather then just the general waffle.

What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?

Off topic slightly, but the Board have been claimed to be negative towards Tramore with all the recent objections (iv noted two which I agree with and I am not familiar with the others) to the councils planning acceptance given to projects. Do you support the two councillors shouting the loudest about this? They have been fair to Waterford in terms of listening to the public, developers and objectors and coming to a decent conclusion but a few mins down the road and its claimed they are negative towards the town with no balance it would seem.

As I said on Radio the other day, the two Councillors should have read the An Bord Pleanala judgement before they commented on it.

Here is an excerpt from page 9 of the report which pretty much states that the Councillors zoned the site incorrectly.

In terms of the principle of the proposal, one of the key considerations is whether
the proposal is appropriate on the zoning pertaining on the site. There are other
additional considerations which are set out below under this heading and also in
terms of the location of the site. In relation to the zoning, the site has been rezoned
since the first application was made on the site in 2004. The site is now zoned ‘C’ –
commercial - the purpose of which is to provide for commercial development.
Within this zoning retail convenience (corner/neigh. Shop; petrol outlet) and defined
at note 1 as referring to small-scale convenience goods shopping, essentially local or
neighbourhood shop. While I acknowledge that the retail guidelines state that
discount foodstores can anchor neighbourhood centres, the consideration in this
instance is the zoning objective pertaining on the site and the uses permitted in the
Plan. Discount retailers while selling convenience retail goods also sell comparison
goods ranging in type but including household goods. I would note that the landuse
matrix states that retail comparison goods are not permissible. The Board will note
that the matrix includes the words ‘goods’ and defines retail comparison goods, at
note 1, as durable goods including carpets, furniture and household goods. I would
also note that the landuse matrix states that supermarket is not permissible in the
commercial zoning. The retail impact assessment does not provide any breakdown of
the convenience/non-convenience split in the product range. It is likely, however,
that the comparison element is a small proportion and could arguably be considered
as ancillary to the convenience offer in store. However there would appear to be an
intention that the commercial zoning can accommodate small convenience retail
units rather than larger units with a broader product range.

Well the recent controversy with one Green member sending out a letter talking about pulling out of government would indicate that things were not so well in the camp! Its a shame they dont shout as loud. Head over to the Politics forum for the bigger picture and you will see that Greens will equally get a hammering even though they are not the cause of the problems.

The main difference between the Greens and the other Parties is that we are a policy driven Party, and the policy is developed by the membership, not just by the Elected Representatives, or Party employees (as happens with other Parties).

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.


I had a look at the Politics Forum and a lot of what goes on there is partisan hype, and most of it is speculation about the motives and capabilities of people from the opposing political party. I can think of better way of spending my time. :-)

Stan Nangle

Bards wrote: »

...How Many.. from my understanding ABP - Waterford City Council planning decisions have one of the lowest overturn rate in the country

I'll see if I can get the stats.

That man is a menance and has cost this City jobs

Can you elaborate on that?

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I suppose the first thing to say is that he doesn't always "object". Much of what he does is commenting on elements of a proposal that don't meet the requirements of the City Development Plan, National Law, or EU Law. Some of it is black and white, and more of it is opinion or interpretation.

It is something he is passionate about, and in a sense he is right. These buildings are going to be around for decades, so why not get them right? We can see examples all over the place of developments that should never have been built, or where the quality of life of the people living there is diminished because a developer took shortcuts.




What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?




As I said on Radio the other day, the two Councillors should have read the An Bord Pleanala judgement before they commented on it.

Here is an excerpt from page 9 of the report which pretty much states that the Councillors zoned the site incorrectly.






The main difference between the Greens and the other Parties is that we are a policy driven Party, and the policy is developed by the membership, not just by the Elected Representatives, or Party employees (as happens with other Parties).

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.


I had a look at the Politics Forum and a lot of what goes on there is partisan hype, and most of it is speculation about the motives and capabilities of people from the opposing political party. I can think of better way of spending my time. :-)

The development in Tramore falls under Waterford Co Co and not Waterford City Co.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'll see if I can get the stats.




Can you elaborate on that?

Pizza Hut - objected on grounds of smeel eminating from the premises - was laughed at by ABP, but due to unnecessary delay Pizza Hut pulled out

KRM (He was the ring leader along with WCTU who advised the residents how to go about cojecting)

He also Advised residents of Bowfield how to object to Water Haven, and will no doubt lodge an objection to ABP now that Waterford City Co. have given the go ahead

Need I mention Rthe Vendetta he had against ichard Dick in Farran Park about the bigger and better Centra that is now in place

How much money did Mulligans loose when he objected to the Development on John STreet/Waterfordside which again eventually got planning from ABP

have a look at this
http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2007/05/24/story25728.asp


If you really believe that no jobs were lost because of his objection that you are really naive

Sully

Bards wrote: »

The development in Tramore falls under Waterford Co Co and not Waterford City Co.

He was answering a question I asked which was unrelated to Mr. Mcann or Waterford City Council. It was a slight off topic question I wanted to see his opinion on so ignore that in terms of the argument for/against McCann