Building up the KM time line? (Sub 3 Hour)

Supercell

My (rather idealistic) goal is to run a sub 3 hour Dublin marathon next year (as well as cycle the Wicklow 200).

I've lost about 45lbs over the last few months mainly by better diet and cycling to and from work, and now find that I can actually jog again.
6 months ago I got bruises on my heels from running a few metres in the same shoes I went jogging in today (they are good shoe's..I was too heavy footed ..) but I digress.
For the first time in many many years I can keep going for a few kilometres without dying afterwards or injuring myself. Today I completed a 5KM jog around the local country roads and fields (measured it using a GPS walking the other day ..yep..I am a nerd!).
It took me 26 minutes approximately, while that's woeful of course the mere fact that I got round jogging was something impossible for a very long time.
So onwards and upwards..

I'd plan on running 5 days a week with two one day breaks in there with two or three longish runs (I work four days a week) as well as keeping up the cycling to and from work which will probably have two or three longish rides in there alternating with running weeks..not sure on the specifics yet, but should be training the legs pretty hard five days a week on average is the aim.

Assuming I keep it clean in the kitchen and train hard, is it a realistic goal to set myself to manage a sub 3 hour marathon next year?
Is it worth my while getting a proper fitness VO2 Max type assessment done at this stage?
Any tips welcome.

donothoponpop

Supercell wrote: »

My (rather idealistic) goal is to run a sub 3 hour Dublin marathon next year (as well as cycle the Wicklow 200).

First off, well done and good luck with your training. But running a sub3 marathon and cycling (completing) the Wicklow 200 are very different achievements. Especially given the times you have posted here for 5k, you would be better advised setting a goal of sub4 hours for your first marathon, and seeing how you can better that time in subsequent races.

Its way too early to get VO2max testing done yet:)

Whats your hurry?

Highway_To_Hell

Well you are definitely setting yourself a tough challenge. There are some serious athletes on this site who have worked hard or working hard to get under 3hrs.

Under 3hrs in this years Dublin City marathon would have you finishing in 236th place out of 9374 finishers ( you would be in the top 2.5% of the competition).

26mins for 5km is not too bad but you will need to knock 1min of each Km and keep it up for 42km to get under 3hrs.

Advise I took for my first marathon (Dublin 08 ) “you can only do your first marathon once enjoy it” and finished with a smile on my face having enjoyed every minute of the 234 that I was out there for.

cfitz

Supercell wrote: »

My (rather idealistic) goal is to run a sub 3 hour Dublin marathon next year (as well as cycle the Wicklow 200).

I've lost about 45lbs over the last few months mainly by better diet and cycling to and from work, and now find that I can actually jog again.
6 months ago I got bruises on my heels from running a few metres in the same shoes I went jogging in today (they are good shoe's..I was too heavy footed ..) but I digress.
For the first time in many many years I can keep going for a few kilometres without dying afterwards or injuring myself. Today I completed a 5KM jog around the local country roads and fields (measured it using a GPS walking the other day ..yep..I am a nerd!).
It took me 26 minutes approximately, while that's woeful of course the mere fact that I got round jogging was something impossible for a very long time.
So onwards and upwards..

I'd plan on running 5 days a week with two one day breaks in there with two or three longish runs (I work four days a week) as well as keeping up the cycling to and from work which will probably have two or three longish rides in there alternating with running weeks..not sure on the specifics yet, but should be training the legs pretty hard five days a week on average is the aim.

Assuming I keep it clean in the kitchen and train hard, is it a realistic goal to set myself to manage a sub 3 hour marathon next year?
Is it worth my while getting a proper fitness VO2 Max type assessment done at this stage?
Any tips welcome.

Well I'd say you should probably leave the marathon til late next year to give yourself plenty of time to train for it. In my opinion, the cycling won't do that much for your running. It's better than driving to work obviously, but don't think you can substitute it for running.

If you want to run sub 3-hours in less than a year it would probably be worth joining a club with a good coach. For most people, their running career is a long learning process, but a good coach can help you skip some big mistakes that might slow your progress.

I don't think you should have the Wicklow 200 as a goal alongside your marathon, unless you know you can do it without any specific training. Also, if you're overweight, training can be much more difficult. So if you're a nice and light you have almost a year to train for your marathon, but if you're carrying a lot of extra weight then the next few months would be spent losing that cutting down your real marathon training time.

I don't think a 3hr marathon in a year is necessarily that ambitious, but it would require a lot of work and you'd want to be aware that you might not get it after doing a lot of work. Running requires training consistently almost every day, you'd need to be prepared for that also.

Stupid_Private

It's a tough goal but doable - cfitz's advice is right though, you'll need to find a good club and commit a lot of time to training - you'll have to build up to running 6 times a week.

I wouldn't be concerned about your time of 26 mins. As you said it was a jog. Even lads who run 2:20 for a marathon will jog around at 7:30 min/mile pace (Granted they'll do that for 10+ miles rather than 5k, but you have to start somewhere). Easy days are just that, easy!

Supercell

donothoponpop wrote: »

First off, well done and good luck with your training. But running a sub3 marathon and cycling (completing) the Wicklow 200 are very different achievements.
Whats your hurry?

Thanks, i suppose at 37, 38 next year..the clock is ticking and I want to be be able to do these while I still can. Also I used to be a fair runner in my youth having done many a 10k race..then I discovered the joys of alcohol and girls..

Highway_To_Hell wrote: »

Well you are definitely setting yourself a tough challenge. There are some serious athletes on this site who have worked hard or working hard to get under 3hrs.

26mins for 5km is not too bad but you will need to knock 1min of each Km and keep it up for 42km to get under 3hrs.

Advise I took for my first marathon (Dublin 08 ) “you can only do your first marathon once enjoy it” and finished with a smile on my face having enjoyed every minute of the 234 that I was out there for.

Good advise, I know I'll enjoy it more of course if i do the sub 3hours which sounds like it may be possible if i train really hard.

cfitz wrote: »

Well I'd say you should probably leave the marathon til late next year to give yourself plenty of time to train for it. In my opinion, the cycling won't do that much for your running. It's better than driving to work obviously, but don't think you can substitute it for running.

If you want to run sub 3-hours in less than a year it would probably be worth joining a club with a good coach. For most people, their running career is a long learning process, but a good coach can help you skip some big mistakes that might slow your progress.

I don't think you should have the Wicklow 200 as a goal alongside your marathon, unless you know you can do it without any specific training. Also, if you're overweight, training can be much more difficult. So if you're a nice and light you have almost a year to train for your marathon, but if you're carrying a lot of extra weight then the next few months would be spent losing that cutting down your real marathon training time.

I don't think a 3hr marathon in a year is necessarily that ambitious, but it would require a lot of work and you'd want to be aware that you might not get it after doing a lot of work. Running requires training consistently almost every day, you'd need to be prepared for that also.

Thanks, you're the second person to comment about the cycling being maybe counter productive. While I enjoy cycling i used to prefer running. Living in the middle of the wilds here with the Wicklow mountains all around - I've no excuse not to go training out in the mountains, though joining a club and getting proper training advice and encouragement sounds like a good idea to look into.
Any good clubs in the North Wicklow/South Dublin area that you could recommend?

aburke

Supercell wrote: »

My (rather idealistic) goal is to run a sub 3 hour Dublin marathon next year

Have you a running background?
Have you run a marathon before?
What are your PBs over some distances eg 5km, 10km, half marathon.
What are your most recent times over these distances?

Are you male or female?

We'll be in a better position to judge how 'idealistic' that goal is.

It's a worthy goal, no doubt. It was one of mine

asimonov

Why the 3hr target for your first marathon? It seems like a very high standard to set...and you run the real risk of not achieving it or injuring yourself trying to get there. I am the same age as you, and training for my first marathon as well. I reckon i can achieve 3:45 in connemara (equivalent of a 3.30 dublin marathon time maybe??))

Would it not make more sense to try to target a time of 3:30 for your first and then have the all the joy of breaking 3hr when yr 39...and the Marathon d'Sable for your 40th..... that way it will all be ahead of you!

whatever you do, good luck with it.

Supercell

aburke wrote: »

Have you a running background?
Have you run a marathon before?
What are your PBs over some distances eg 5km, 10km, half marathon.
What are your most recent times over these distances?

Are you male or female?

We'll be in a better position to judge how 'idealistic' that goal is.

It's a worthy goal, no doubt. It was one of mine

Thanks, to answer your questions...

Have you a running background? - If I was 17 years old again the answer to that would be a resounding yes..I always won cross country in my school years (class of 100 ..times posted weekly on the gym boards). And finished top 10 in quite a few 10ks without any real training put in bar cycling everywhere, and playing rugby and soccer every day. Sadly those days are long gone, but its the same me under it all..which is why I think the potential is there..just vastly under tapped presently!!

Have you run a marathon before? - No
What are your PBs over some distances eg 5km, 10km, half marathon. - no idea last ran these distance when I was about 17..that's a long time ago.

What are your most recent times over these distances? - see above.
Are you male or female? - Male

I think the answer so far is that it is doable over a years time frame, if I'm not very overweight now (I'm not) and train hard and eat right.
I also need to join a club it seems, which is the next step to take.

Thanks again for the feedback, I'm very encouraged.

--amadeus--

Been working away for the last couple of weeks so not enough time to keep up with stuff but this I had to answer

ABurke is (as usual) right - before anyone can really provide any sensible opinions on how possible or doable your target is we do need some context and Alan's questions are a great starting point.

A lot of experienced runners are of the opinion that any healthy male under 40 who is willing and able to commit to the training can run sub 3. The caveat on that isn't the "willing" but the "able" part, IMO. To crack 3 hours you have to run sub 7's the whole way and the only way to manage that is to train at both an intense level and with fairly serious volume. I would expect a committed sub 3 marathon runner to be training at least 6 days a week, possibly doing doubles and covering 50 miles/week+ (most I would guess would be hitting peak weekly mileages in the mid 70s). Longest long runs would be 22 miles and at least one aspiring sub 3 runner on here ran back to back 20's (yes I mean a 20 on the Saturday and a 20 on the Sunday). And that's not lazy mileage either - you need more than stamina you need serious speed so pace needs to be high and expect 2 speed sessions a week. Even in non-speed specific sessions you will be working hard - you may do a progressive long run for example, with 1 mile warm up, 7 miles at 8:00 followed by 7 at 7:30 and then 7 at sub 7 before a 1 mile warm down.

This leads to a couple of obvious points. 1st not everyone can commit to that time intensive schedule. Nor is everyone able to last the pace - many simply crack under the weight and give up. More probable is that training at that intensity and volume on a body that is unaccustomed to it (especially one carrying any excess weight) simply causes it to break down and over-use injuries are very common at this level.

Is it possible? With dedication, luck and a some talent then yes. But I would hazard a guess that it will be the hardest thing that you'll ever do and quite some achievement if you make it! I am not attempting to be negative or put you off; I'm trying to be realistic and give you some idea of the scale of the task. Like I said it can be done.

If you really want to go for it then but "Advanced Marathoning" by Pfitzer (spelling) and Douglas - it's the bible or the fast marathon set.

Good luck and keep in touch!

[edit] took so long typing this I see you've replied... You seem to have the running ability but my major worry is the strain of the mileage on a body not used to it. Road running is very stressful on your body and it requires a lot of physiological adaptation, cycling is irrelevant really apart from the CV benefits - it's known as "specificality of training"; ie to run better you need to run!

Supercell

Thanks --amadeus-- , I certainly take onboard what you are saying. I think you definitely have a point about the strain a body not used to it. I dunno if the body has a muscle memory or not..I suppose in my case the gap is so long that's probably lost anyhow, though if its not then I may have a good headstart.

I think the physiological adaptation will be pretty important initially especially so will have to take it carefully to avoid injury.
I have it in my head that the first one I do will be a sub 3 hour one, I suppose, if that is to be realistically the case, then maybe even 2009 is optimistic from a standing start.
Its still not going to prevent me trying!

Funkyzeit

Hi SuperCell.
Firstly congrats on the big time improvements.

I am in a similiar enough position - doing triathlons and plan to do the Wicklow 200 and may do the DC Marathon. However even with a PB for 5k of well less than 20 mins and having done a 15 mile in sub 2 hours there is NO WAY I would even dream of running a sub 3 hour marathon.

A buddy of mine is practically a full time runner and went to America on a running scholaship and his PB is 2:40 but has run 2:50ish often - gives you an idea of the type of runner running sub 3. I agree with above posters in thinking sub 4 would be a much better target but you prob know best !

Good look and see you in the W200 !

Stupid_Private

--amadeus-- wrote: »

A lot of experienced runners are of the opinion that any healthy male under 40 who is willing and able to commit to the training can run sub 3. The caveat on that isn't the "willing" but the "able" part, IMO. To crack 3 hours you have to run sub 7's the whole way and the only way to manage that is to train at both an intense level and with fairly serious volume. I would expect a committed sub 3 marathon runner to be training at least 6 days a week, possibly doing doubles and covering 50 miles/week+ (most I would guess would be hitting peak weekly mileages in the mid 70s). Longest long runs would be 22 miles and at least one aspiring sub 3 runner on here ran back to back 20's (yes I mean a 20 on the Saturday and a 20 on the Sunday). And that's not lazy mileage either - you need more than stamina you need serious speed so pace needs to be high and expect 2 speed sessions a week. Even in non-speed specific sessions you will be working hard - you may do a progressive long run for example, with 1 mile warm up, 7 miles at 8:00 followed by 7 at 7:30 and then 7 at sub 7 before a 1 mile warm down.

I don't mean to come across as shooting this all down but I will shoot a bit of it down - sorry! There is of course the everybody is different argument and what works for me won't work for everyone....
6 days a week training and 2 speed sessions is pretty accurate. Non-specific speed sessions are easy - just tipping around, putting no stress on the legs and not worrying at all about pace. I did 2h 46 without doing any stressful long runs. Maybe a few that were averaging 7 minutes but they didn't feel tough (and they shouldn't as 2h46 pace is 6:21). I've never trained twice in a day, and certainly never done back to back long runs. Highest mileage was about 60 miles and longest run was 18 miles.

I was chatting to a lad recently who is targeting 2:17 marathon in the Spring - he runs 75 miles a week and his easy runs during the week is over 7 minute pace...

Racing Flat

Whether your target is sub 3 or sub 4, the training won't be any different. Just the paces might be, but you'll still be doing the same sessions. So I would just get training and after a few months do a few races and you'll know from those your realistic target time. But I think it's great to be ambitious and push yourself.

It's all relative. For some people they could do sub 3 on a Sunday jog, others spend 20 years trying and never get under 3 and a half. So get out there and see how you go.

--amadeus--

I don't think we're that far apart in what we're saying SP. I was using specific examples of people I know who ran that sort of speed and the sort of training they do to kind of give the OP an idea about the commitment that he's looking at making and I agree 100% that he should run a bit, enter a race and decide on a target from there.

And I agree that the training for (for example) sub 3:30 and sub 3 will be broadly the same but with different paces. Where I think we disagree is how much difference that makes to difficulty...

The OP says he ran 5K the other day in 26 mins - that's 8:23 min/miles. Where you talk about long runs at 7 min/mile pace not feeling tough (and you're right for your target pace) I think most of us would consider that to be pretty stressful! I know where you are coming from - not everyone who runs sub 3 does doubles for example (and not everyone who runs doubles goes sub 3 either) but I'll stand by my assertion that training to run a sub 3 having not run for the guts of 20 years (and having a current "cruising speed" of 8:15 min/miles+) will be pretty tough!

digitalage

I think this is well possible with plenty of training. I never ran before in my life, last november my mate bet me that I could'nt bet his time 3.45, anyway we agreed on the Hamburg marathon april 2008, I started running about 4-5 times a week, highest mileage in the week was around 40miles, anyways done the marathon in 3.14, I know its not sub 3 but I was'nt aiming for that, but with 12months its well doable. I have continued to run, done a few runs the frank duffy 10miles 64minutes, my second marathon (Edinburugh 2009) I will go sub 3 hours. OP I would sign up to a few halfmarathons during next year to keep you motivated and do the adidas series, I will also see you on the W200 next year, good luck with the running.

tunney

cfitz wrote: »

Well I'd say you should probably leave the marathon til late next year to give yourself plenty of time to train for it. In my opinion, the cycling won't do that much for your running. It's better than driving to work obviously, but don't think you can substitute it for running.

Interestingly enough bike training does translate into run fitness - just not the other way around.

That being said I think sub 3 from a 26 minute 5km at the moment is unrealistic.

Peckham

digitalage wrote: »

I think this is well possible with plenty of training. I never ran before in my life, last november my mate bet me that I could'nt bet his time 3.45, anyway we agreed on the Hamburg marathon april 2008, I started running about 4-5 times a week, highest mileage in the week was around 40miles, anyways done the marathon in 3.14, I know its not sub 3 but I was'nt aiming for that, but with 12months its well doable. I have continued to run, done a few runs the frank duffy 10miles 64minutes, my second marathon (Edinburugh 2009) I will go sub 3 hours. OP I would sign up to a few halfmarathons during next year to keep you motivated and do the adidas series, I will also see you on the W200 next year, good luck with the running.

I like your confidence, but your tone comes across as making sub-3 sound easily achieveable. It's not! Unless you have natural talent, sub-3 is not "doable" in 12 months and some people try for years to get it.

I was chatting to someone during the Dublin marathon this year, and I think he said it was his 4th attempt at sub-3 (7th or 8th marathon overall), and had fallen just short every time previously. I met him again at the finish, and he had missed it again by less than a minute. Lance Armstrong just about made it when he tried for it, and to quote him afterwards: "For the level of condition that I have now, that was without a doubt the hardest physical thing I have ever done" (albeit about 15 months after his 7th Tour de France victory, I'd say he was still in pretty decent shape).

There is a world of difference between 3:14 and sub-3. 14mins may not sound like much, but going from 7:25/mile to 6:50/mile is a major jump, and you need everything in your favour on race day (take it from someone who learned the hard way!).

Just make sure you're well-prepared for it (would suggest you need to increase the training load considerably - i.e. in the months before the marathon, 40 miles per week should be a recovery week...but I'm sure you know this).

Rant over! :rolleyes:

cfitz

tunney wrote: »

Interestingly enough bike training does translate into run fitness - just not the other way around.

I'm not too well up on the effects of cycling but:

It's non-weight bearing, so there are loads of body parts that won't get the same workout as they would when you go for a run.
The motion is different from running so different muscles are worked to different amounts. As well as this making it less useful, it could lead to areas not getting enough of a workout and being susceptible to injury when you do run.
Also, in my experience, when cycling it's very difficult to get your heart rate up to the necessary levels for running training (bear in mind this guy is only cycling to work).

So, I didn't say cycling is useless, but it's not a reasonable substitute for running if you're training for a marathon.

digitalage

Peckham take a chill pill, I was basing this on my running experience, albeit only 12months and still trying to learn. I had'nt been active for years prior to running, something similar to the original poster. But I have found my pace has increased considerably in the last few months with continuing training, my last long run was 18miles done in 1.56 (6.28/mile pace), this would put me under the 3hour marathon. It was just my 2cents, I think it could be achievable.

Stupid_Private

I'm of the belief that anyone who has a good training structure and the time to put in the training can do sub 3 - it's not easy but it's not as hard as people make out. Life gets in the way of training all the time but if you can juggle it all successfully it's very doable. The only reason I commented on amadeus' post earlier was because when I saw the training that was suggested I thought it was enough to scare anyone away from making an attempt, myself included.

TheRoadRunner

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I'm of the belief that anyone who has a good training structure and the time to put in the training can do sub 3 -

I think these posts are kind of pointless. It's all relative at the end of the day. Some people just won't be able to run sub 3 others can do it it with little of no training. In the same vain if I put the training in and even became a full time athlete I doubt I could go sub 2.20 (I'm being kind to myself here maybe 2.30 is more realistic) for example.

I think some people are just trying to point out sub 3 hrs is pretty tough. Having said that the OP may be a natural and surprise everybody. As Aburke rightly points out, he needs to run some shorter distance races before he should decide on his target marathon time.

Stupid_Private

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I think these posts are kind of pointless.

It may not be the best statement in the world but I prefare to be in the "give it a shot" camp offering encouragement, rather than the "this will be the hardest thing in the world ever, don't even think about it, are you sure you wouldn't like to try run 4 hours?" camp!

Peckham

+1 to RoadRunner. There are a lot of people here who have a good training structure and put the time and effort into training (at the expense of other elements in their lives). How many sub-3 marathoners are there here? 2 or 3 at most. The difference between the sub-3 guys and the 3hrs+ guys (and I'm still in the latter category), comes down to a combination of talent and experience.

cfitz

Peckham wrote: »

How many sub-3 marathoners are there here? 2 or 3 at most. The difference between the sub-3 guys and the 3hrs+ guys (and I'm still in the latter category), comes down to a combination of talent and experience.

I think a big part of the reason very few people here run sub 3 is because they stubbornly choose to go it alone. I think I can understand why - if you watch a marathon on television or read about it, it sounds like a great challenge. If you then go join a club and run with a group of people who see a marathon as just another race then a lot of that magic disappears. But for a lot of people that's what they gotta do to run sub 3.

donothoponpop

Peckham wrote: »

... The difference between the sub-3 guys and the 3hrs+ guys (and I'm still in the latter category)...

Credit where it's due Peckham, if you don't consider yourself sub3, you're hardly in the 3+ category:D

TheRoadRunner

Stupid_Private wrote: »

It may not be the best statement in the world but I prefare to be in the "give it a shot" camp offering encouragement, rather than the "this will be the hardest thing in the world ever, don't even think about it, are you sure you wouldn't like to try run 4 hours?" camp!

Well yeah I suppose I do agree with you there. This guy might bang out a 2.40 or conversely 4.40 in his first marathon.

I think he needs to find out what level he is at himself though before setting targets though. There is no point in aiming for something too fast or too slow in my opinion. I think most posters are looking at his current 5k time and translating that to a marathon and think sub 3 is not realistic.

A couple of months training and races would help clear this up !

cfitz

Supercell wrote: »

Living in the middle of the wilds here with the Wicklow mountains all around - I've no excuse not to go training out in the mountains, though joining a club and getting proper training advice and encouragement sounds like a good idea to look into.
Any good clubs in the North Wicklow/South Dublin area that you could recommend?

I'm not from Wicklow or Dublin so others here might have better knowledge. Sli Chulainn in Wicklow are quite successful and there are lots of good South Dublin clubs - DSD and Rathfarnham/WSAF spring to mind. Different clubs may suit different people though. I'd say you need to find a club who have a good coach that will able to give you the necessary time. You need to get a training program, advice and feedback from the coach. Finding this might not be too easy - do you have any friends who are serious runners? They may know some good coaches. There's a woman in Wicklow athletics called Noreen O'Reilly that is very nice and helpful. She might be able to point you to a coach if you tell her your goals and level of commitment. I think her contact details can be found on www.athleticsleinster.com.

tunney

cfitz wrote: »

I'm not from Wicklow or Dublin so others here might have better knowledge. Sli Chulainn in Wicklow are quite successful and there are lots of good South Dublin clubs - DSD and Rathfarnham/WSAF spring to mind. Different clubs may suit different people though. I'd say you need to find a club who have a good coach that will able to give you the necessary time. You need to get a training program, advice and feedback from the coach. Finding this might not be too easy - do you have any friends who are serious runners? They may know some good coaches. There's a woman in Wicklow athletics called Noreen O'Reilly that is very nice and helpful. She might be able to point you to a coach if you tell her your goals and level of commitment. I think her contact details can be found on www.athleticsleinster.com.

+1 for Rathfarnham WSAF.

T runner

Supercell, If you were winning schools cross country meets and were a top 10 guy in local road races then in all liklihood you have the potential to run sub 3hrs in the year.
It will take hard work and a commitment as much as possible to perfection. i.e be honest and thorough in your training, stretching, diet etc.
You need to Join a club ASAP. You might as well get the knowledge and community benefits out of running as well.
IMO the supplemental cycling with running well help you get more aerobically fitter initially than running alone. This may actually make you less likely to get injured as it will give a good balance to the work your muscles have to do, which after all are relatively new to the higher workloads. So you will get fitter without getting injured. Keep the cadence high though, to avoid losing leg speed gained from running club sessions.
A bit of swimming is useful too. You could look on this period as a kind of big base period before the marathon training proper. after 4-5 months. Slowly switch more running into your schedule and decrease cycling slowly.
Anyway youll get the advice you need from a club coach, I guess.
If youre in the Wicklow hills try a few IMRA races. IMRA 2009 Calendar
Youll get good advice from runners there and the cycling will help those climbing muscles.

Stupid_Private

Rathfarnham is a good club, with a range of abilities there - I only trained with them a few times and if I was still living out that way I'd have joined them for sure.

Peckham wrote: »

How many sub-3 marathoners are there here? 2 or 3 at most. The difference between the sub-3 guys and the 3hrs+ guys (and I'm still in the latter category), comes down to a combination of talent and experience.

There's plenty on here - they're just not vocal! There's 3 that I can spot on this thread and a couple more who'd easily do it if they actually did marathons *cough* tunney/cfitz *cough*

If I was to say what the difference is it'd be sorted by asking all the sub 3 hour lads a simple question. "How many of you train with a club or are coached?" My guess is that the majority are, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't all. Now ask the same question to everyone on here who is aspiring to make the leap to sub 3...

donothoponpop

Stupid_Private wrote: »

...

If I was to say what the difference is it'd be sorted by asking all the sub 3 hour lads a simple question. "How many of you train with a club or are coached?" My guess is that the majority are, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't all. Now ask the same question to everyone on here who is aspiring to make the leap to sub 3...

That's a very good point, and (as one hoping to go sub3 early 2009) food for thought.

TheRoadRunner

Stupid_Private wrote: »

If I was to say what the difference is it'd be sorted by asking all the sub 3 hour lads a simple question. "How many of you train with a club or are coached?" My guess is that the majority are, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't all. Now ask the same question to everyone on here who is aspiring to make the leap to sub 3...

I think this is true in general. I'd consider myself self coached. Having said that I do talk to fellow club runners who were exceptional marathon runners and while never getting a program from them I run stuff by them to make sure I'm not doing anything bonkers.

aburke

Stupid_Private wrote: »

"How many of you train with a club or are coached?"

Club member [as if the footer didn't give it away :-) ]
Technically self-coached, but take advice from a plethora of club members, some who could run sub 3 for fun.

hunnymonster

I'm not a club member but I have been toying with the idea of some coaching lately. Part of me wants to keep this fitness lark as the fun side of life, part of me wants to see what I can do if I committed to training properly. I know I won't commit unless there is someone else involved.

Supercell

cfitz wrote: »

I'm not from Wicklow or Dublin so others here might have better knowledge. Sli Chulainn in Wicklow are quite successful and there are lots of good South Dublin clubs - DSD and Rathfarnham/WSAF spring to mind. Different clubs may suit different people though. I'd say you need to find a club who have a good coach that will able to give you the necessary time. You need to get a training program, advice and feedback from the coach. Finding this might not be too easy - do you have any friends who are serious runners? They may know some good coaches. There's a woman in Wicklow athletics called Noreen O'Reilly that is very nice and helpful. She might be able to point you to a coach if you tell her your goals and level of commitment. I think her contact details can be found on www.athleticsleinster.com.

Thanks cfitz, I'll look up those clubs and see what suits my needs best.

Huge thanks to everyone that's posted here, there's another thread on here with lists half marathons, I think that's going to be my initial goal in early next year.
I'm start from close to zero fitness a few months ago - my 5KM time would have been closer to 54 mins then. I reckon that time will fall sharply as I'm taking it easy currently trying to build strength in my knees and ankles before pushing the boat out too soon.
Time to walk the walk so as to speak I suppose.
I ordered "Advanced Marathoning" off Amazon as recommended by --amadeus-- and look forward to reading it, and learning from it.
Next step is to start a training log..that should be a nice for me to track progress (and probably shudder at early mistakes and times!).

Krusty_Clown

Best of luck with the new goal! Just for reference, the equivalent McMillan time for a sub 3-hour marathon runner in a 10k race (assuming that the runner trained properly for the 10k event) is 38 minutes, 21 seconds. So when you get to that sub three hour landmark, you can also expect your 10k times to come down a huge chunk.

I found McMillan's website very useful for pacing information.

Slogger Jogger

Interesting discussion. I intend giving the 3hr barrier a shot over the coming year. I've signed up for Rotterdam. 18 week plan lined up from the Aware run weekend.

I'm not a club runner but run imra races and pick up chunks of knowledge from all and sundry (inc. from you guys here)

I ran a 3.06PB in Cork this year and that was without a dedicated Cork plan. I was topping off at 70k per week in the run up to Connemara this year.

Peckham I think it was pointed me in the direction of the Hal Higdon plan for the 10K and that has opened my eyes to the interval and tempo runs, that I never did before. In a matter of weeks I'm noticed some incremental improvements so that gives me confidence for applying similar techniques to marathon training. Touch wood.

Rusty Cogs 08

(Thread hijack alert)
So that's Slogger Jogger, Donothoponpop and myself all signed up for the Rotterdam marathon and all going for our first sub 3. SJ on Hal Higdon, Dp on Pfitzer & Douglas and I may take the RunnersWorld route. It would be interesting to combine our efforts in some meta-log to see how our training goes. Dp and myself have forerunners, not sure about SJ ?

--amadeus--

I'm 99% doing Rotterdam but sub 3 may be a leap too far. Maybe sub 3:05. Also P&D and Garmined up...

Abhainn

ahhhhh! Rotterdam in April 2009 seems the place to be then.
Would love to find those 61 secs I need there for a sub 3 but kinda commited to the Conn ultra at this stage and some family stuff in that month also .

bo-sco

Coaching for marathon running is fairly basic. You do your long runs, your tempo runs and your long intervals and that's it really. I train with a club now that I joined in May but am still effectively self coached. I ran 2.43 before I ever went near a club. Training for marathons is much more basic than for track, the advantage of the club is the social aspect and having lads to do the sessions with makes it easier.

Supercell

bo-sco wrote: »

Coaching for marathon running is fairly basic. You do your long runs, your tempo runs and your long intervals and that's it really. I train with a club now that I joined in May but am still effectively self coached. I ran 2.43 before I ever went near a club. Training for marathons is much more basic than for track, the advantage of the club is the social aspect and having lads to do the sessions with makes it easier.

Was that on your first marathon or had you previously been involved in athletics in shorter distances/ran other marathons and built up to that ?
Thats a fantastic time, well done, one day here ....

bo-sco

Supercell wrote: »

Was that on your first marathon or had you previously been involved in athletics in shorter distances/ran other marathons and built up to that ?
Thats a fantastic time, well done, one day here ....

Was my second but the first one I trained properly for. Had run 2.55 a few years before without doing any speed work at all. I guess that's where the coaching would have come in! The other thing is that I wouldn't have been doing the number of weekly miles mentioned here as what's required. Most weeks I wouldn't have gone over 50 miles and the most I'd have ever done would have been 60. How important do people here think the high weekly mileage is?

Slogger Jogger

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

(Thread hijack alert)
So that's Slogger Jogger, Donothoponpop and myself all signed up for the Rotterdam marathon and all going for our first sub 3. SJ on Hal Higdon, Dp on Pfitzer & Douglas and I may take the RunnersWorld route. It would be interesting to combine our efforts in some meta-log to see how our training goes. Dp and myself have forerunners, not sure about SJ ?

I'd be open to that Rusty. I have a trusty 305 alright, which is only getting occasional airings at the moment as I'm doing most runs leading up to the Aware 10K in the gym on these dark early mornings.

Rusty Cogs 08

And sure me a North Wickla' lad. We just need Amadeus to push for the sub 3 and we'd have great motivation. Plus our own group on the day.

I'm not sure of the best way to track the training of four different runners. Personally I'm taking the Garmin & HRM on every run just to get in to the habit of it (love these dark runs) so I can give access to whomever on line to view but it would be good to show all four training results as they progress. Easier than following four different logs too. Anyone any suggestions on this front ?

Krusty_Clown

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

...it would be good to show all four training results as they progress. Easier than following four different logs too. Anyone any suggestions on this front ?

If you're on Facebook, you can add the MyMotionBased Application, which acts a little like a run aggregator, and will pull run/training info from any of your other friends in Facebook (who also use motionbased), who have the same application installed. I use it with a couple of friends to compare training/progress.

Slogger Jogger

On a recent thread I gave a link to my motionbased stuff. I upload all my stuff to be publicly available, so if we all did that thats a good start.

shels4ever

Supercell wrote: »

My (rather idealistic) goal is to run a sub 3 hour Dublin marathon next year (as well as cycle the Wicklow 200).

I've lost about 45lbs over the last few months mainly by better diet and cycling to and from work, and now find that I can actually jog again.
6 months ago I got bruises on my heels from running a few metres in the same shoes I went jogging in today (they are good shoe's..I was too heavy footed ..) but I digress.
For the first time in many many years I can keep going for a few kilometres without dying afterwards or injuring myself. Today I completed a 5KM jog around the local country roads and fields (measured it using a GPS walking the other day ..yep..I am a nerd!).
It took me 26 minutes approximately, while that's woeful of course the mere fact that I got round jogging was something impossible for a very long time.
So onwards and upwards..

I'd plan on running 5 days a week with two one day breaks in there with two or three longish runs (I work four days a week) as well as keeping up the cycling to and from work which will probably have two or three longish rides in there alternating with running weeks..not sure on the specifics yet, but should be training the legs pretty hard five days a week on average is the aim.

Assuming I keep it clean in the kitchen and train hard, is it a realistic goal to set myself to manage a sub 3 hour marathon next year?
Is it worth my while getting a proper fitness VO2 Max type assessment done at this stage?
Any tips welcome.

Hi there,
Just read through this for the first time, Your setting yourself some target . I think the advise you have recieved here is great. You will need to improve your shorter times before you can have a crack at sub 3 hours. But you never know. I think by April you would have a good idea where you stand ie pace etc

You will find if you stick to your 5 day a week plan your initial improvment will be quick and your 5 k time will come down. I would think that you would need to be running 18-19 mins by the start of the summer.

I myself would love to run a sub 3 hour marathon and had a go at a 3:15 marathon 10 years ago and that was not easy. Going from running 8.5 min miles for 3 mile to sub 7 min miles for 26 is a hard thing to do.. but not impossible.


Keep the dietr ight, keep training and keep posting your progress here.

Best of luck

--amadeus--

Been thinking about this for a couple of days but this is a long post so haven't been able to get time to put it all down...

The way I see it the running world breaks into three unequal parts.

Now we all have gifts. Some can sing, some can paint and some can really run. Talented runners are few and far between in "real life" but a board like this attracts them and may give a false impression about the scale of some of the achievements here. The really naturally talented guys are the guys who turn up at a 10k with a manky hangover and still run sub 37 mins. They are the ones who wake up, have a stretch and a scratch and think "You know what I think I'll race a half marathon today" and breeze home in 75 - 80 mins without looking at all worked. And yes, they are the people who run 20 or 30 miles a week before turning up and clocking 2:50 - 2:55 marathons.

But of course over the population this all evens out. We all know the dedicated runner who slogs and slaves but will never break an hour for a 10k no matter what they do. They have the commitment but thier body lets them down; their true talent lies elsewhere and running is just fun and a hobby and no-one would criticise that.

Which leaves the rest of us - maybe 75 - 80% of the population. And for us sub 3 is the holy grail because no matter how little you know about marathons everyone knows that running 26.2 miles in 2:xx is a staggering achievement. And it's also an achievement that should be attainable for many of us with enough dedication and hard work. I don't think it's possible for everyone though - I think genetics / talent play a big part and as far as I am concerned anyone in the 3:00 or below bracket qualifies as a talented runner. But there is a difference between being naturally gifted and making the most of the gifts you have.

Now the OP may well be one of the gifted ones, in which case he will probably run a sub 3 in Dublin almost despite the training he does. And I genuinely wish him well. But the hard lessons I have learned over the last few years running though are that you cannot compare yourself to other individuals. Just because person A achieved result X on training plan N does not mean that you can or will. And (unless you are one of them) comparing yourself to the truly talented is a heart breaking exercise.

MCOS

Good post --amadeus-- you have been lying low