Declan Kickney

Tim Robbins

Well after a few games itsn't it obvious what the IRFU have signed up for. Kickney only wants to play the territory game. He wants us to kick the ball as much as possible. All our backs just kick the ball. Even the only try we got in the last two games, came from guess what a kick.

Doesn't matter where you are in the field, kick it. I hope Kickney cops on and shows that he can get the Irish team playing some attractive Rugby. Otherwise wants the point in following Rugby. Kicking in G.A.A. or Soccer has much more skill and precision in it. If I like kicking, I'll follow those sports.

Gaffney, a great backs coach, anyone remember one good backs move in the last two games? I don't.

I dispair. Can Declan Kickney produce the goods?

Anybody else worried?

Jesus Christ. He's been there two weeks.

Building and rebuilding takes time. This attitude really pisses me off.

[Jackass]

Slighly concerned that there was no obvious game plan what so ever in our 2 main test to date. Clueless against NZ and headless against Argentina.

But as above, I'd wait a while before passing judgement.

Although in fairness, Gatland won a Grand Slam with Wales in his first 5 games in charge, so some teams / coaches can hit the ground running.

Sabre0001

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well after a few games itsn't it obvious what the IRFU have signed up for. Kickney only wants to play the territory game. He wants us to kick the ball as much as possible. All our backs just kick the ball. Even the only try we got in the last two games, came from guess what a kick.

Doesn't matter where you are in the field, kick it. I hope Kickney cops on and shows that he can get the Irish team playing some attractive Rugby. Otherwise wants the point in following Rugby. Kicking in G.A.A. or Soccer has much more skill and precision in it. If I like kicking, I'll follow those sports.

Gaffney, a great backs coach, anyone remember one good backs move in the last two games? I don't.

I dispair. Can Declan Kickney produce the goods?

Anybody else worried?

The kicking game seems to have come in with the new rules - look at the Tri-Nations for example...It's actually so bad that after the Munster v All Blacks game I actually said to my Dad that it was the first time I saw a game in quite a while that didn't turn into aerial ping pong...

With the backs issue - I only got to see first 30mins today Saw a lot of complicated running moves.....but getting absolutely nowhere. Maybe Ireland need to play simple ball for a couple of phases and then have a couple of dummy runs and breaks. (The only clear break I did see - Bowe - came from several mistakes by the Irish and then missed tackles)

We beat Canada and Argentina. Thats, in reality, what was expected of Kidney.

You can't expect a total change in two weeks. And calling for his head at this stage is the epitomy of all that is wrong with Irish rugby.

Inquitus

I think we'll do alright in the 6 nations, England are in far worse shape than we are, Scotland don't have the players to really challenge, same for Italy, France are in transition, I think the real issue is that we are back to 15 years ago and there exists a significant gap betwenn the NH and the SH.

Inq

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

I think we'll do alright in the 6 nations, England are in far worse shape than we are, Scotland don't have the players to really challenge, same for Italy, France are in transition, I think the real issue is that we are back to 15 years ago and there exists a significant gap betwenn the NH and the SH.

Inq

Nah they have the players they just have the wrong coach if the SRU put Robinson in as head coach they'd be a much more of a worry then they are now. As it is though all Hadden will give them is....eh............ehhh..........ehmmm.... a win against England now and again?

Oh and btw this whole kicking nonsense has f*ck all to do with the ELV's bar the bringing back in. It has to do with players being 100% conservative and not taking contact for fear of loosing possession or at worst conceding a penalty. Players should be told to take a chance and just try it because despite popular belief some defences these days are poor when kicks are made and are ripe for spinning it wide.

Inquitus

The bringing back in is the main driver of the kickfests imo.

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

The bringing back in is the main driver of the kickfests imo.

Dunno most of it is nowhere the near the 22 and more in the middle of the park.

Inquitus

Stev_o wrote: »

Dunno most of it is nowhere the near the 22 and more in the middle of the park.

Aye but alot of it is initiated by the bringing back in rule. Last year the first kick would have gone back into the 22 (if it lands within 15-20 yds of the 22) and into touch....kicking over - this year it just initiates a kickfest.

Munster_Gal

I think Kidney did wonders for the Munster team. He's made alot of better choices than O'Sullivan did. It's only been 2 weeks but I think there'll be a great team selection put forward for the 6 Nations. The test matches are purely for Kidney to get to grips with the job in hand and it's all down to trial and error.
He's also inherited a team that was past their peak and it's now down to him to bring in fresh young blood and build the Irish team of the future.

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye but alot of it is initiated by the bringing back in rule. Last year the first kick would have gone back into the 22 (if it lands within 15-20 yds of the 22) and into touch....kicking over - this year it just initiates a kickfest.

True but sure it was the exact same in the RWC remember and the only team that had the balls enough to run it were Fiji who managed to unlock the SA defence at will from deep.

All it takes is either a strong winger/fast winger and a good fecking backrow and you ll be laughing your way through defence's.

beggars_bush

if teams dropped back an extra player or two to collect those high kicks they'd have numbers to counter attack

instead of having a wall of defenders fronting up

Rattlehead_ie

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well after a few games itsn't it obvious what the IRFU have signed up for. Kickney only wants to play the territory game. He wants us to kick the ball as much as possible. All our backs just kick the ball. Even the only try we got in the last two games, came from guess what a kick.

/facepalm

Dear God man, as stated. He has been in charge for 3 games and although I am not a happy Irish Rugby Supporter at the moment I understand it takes time to build and develop a side. Kidney isnt expected to walk in wave a wand and go oooh there we are everything fixed we can beat NZ,Aussi,SA with no problem.

Exactly what the IRFU have signed up for is a Manager that has proven ability with taking a team WITH potential ,much as Ireland do,and turning them into a cohesive (sp?) unit, where the results are greater than the sum of the parts, between now and the 1st game in the next world cup, hopefully bringing some silver wear along in our gear bags. (6Nations)

What I've seen although I would have prefered to have seen more is Kidney bringing in new Blood (Ferris, Earls etc) and giving them a run as well as looking outside the box with the likes of Geordan Murphy. I believe he is sitting there going ok, these are ALL the potential players I have lets throw them a bone and see what they can do for me. Take e.g Murphy today, had been left out in the doldrums for the last while, brought back today and I would say there is a nice big green tick beside his name as a potential squad member for 6 Nations and for his 4 yr dev plan.

As for the kicking that has come as part of the new ELV's.......... my thoughts are still out on this as of now, it defo makes for more exciting attacking wth ball in hand rugby, but its brought this air tennis with the ball style rugby that makes me want sleep.

Tim Robbins

Munster_Gal wrote: »

I think Kidney did wonders for the Munster team. He's made alot of better choices than O'Sullivan did. It's only been 2 weeks but I think there'll be a great team selection put forward for the 6 Nations. The test matches are purely for Kidney to get to grips with the job in hand and it's all down to trial and error.
He's also inherited a team that was past their peak and it's now down to him to bring in fresh young blood and build the Irish team of the future.

He was a disaster at Leinster. My fear would be he can't play a more expansive game. You attack your opponents where they are weakest. Ireland should have got out the backs and stretched the Argies - we didn't.

What is the point of picking Murphy when all he's going to do is kick it. So instead of Demsey kicking it back, you have Murphy kicking it back.

When a new Manager comes into a team, they should team should be inspired by just breath of fresh air and enthusiasm. This Irish team looks dour and anything but inspired.

thehighground

Tim Robbins wrote: »

He was a disaster at Leinster. My fear would be he can't play a more expansive game. You attack your opponents where they are weakest. Ireland should have got out the backs and stretched the Argies - we didn't.

What is the point of picking Murphy when all he's going to do is kick it. So instead of Demsey kicking it back, you have Murphy kicking it back.

When a new Manager comes into a team, they should team should be inspired by just breath of fresh air and enthusiasm. This Irish team looks dour and anything but inspired.

Don't know about you, but I saw an awful lot of handling errors today, (particularly from the backs) when they had the ball in hand. As well as that, none of our backs have any real pace a la Denis Hickey. Rob Kearney & Tommy Bowe didn't contribute very much. BOD & Luke are not setting the rugby world alight just yet either.

I'm beginning to wonder about Gaffney - Leinster haven't really been flinging the ball around too much either.

Anyway, it looks as if we are not too much worse than any of the NH teams, so that is something to be grateful for.

Munster_Gal

Their goal was to win their games..... which they won two of them and finished up as being ranked 8th!!!

They have another 2 and a half months before the begining of the 6 Nations and another 3 years to the rugby world cup. Anyone expecting an immediate change in the Irish squads attitude after a short 3 weeks is dreaming! They need time to adapt. Declan Kidney is using this time to test out all his options! Give the guy a break!!! He's only just started. It certainly didn't take him 3 weeks to win a Heineken Cup!!!!

phog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well after a few games itsn't it obvious what the IRFU have signed up for. Kickney only wants to play the territory game. He wants us to kick the ball as much as possible. All our backs just kick the ball. Even the only try we got in the last two games, came from guess what a kick.

Doesn't matter where you are in the field, kick it. I hope Kickney cops on and shows that he can get the Irish team playing some attractive Rugby. Otherwise wants the point in following Rugby. Kicking in G.A.A. or Soccer has much more skill and precision in it. If I like kicking, I'll follow those sports.

Gaffney, a great backs coach, anyone remember one good backs move in the last two games? I don't.

I dispair. Can Declan Kickney produce the goods?

Anybody else worried?

Most of our games against the Pumas are hard fought games and I think it was decided to put the ball behind them and force them to make errors. I'd take a 17 -3 win over the likes of Argentina any day regardless of what way our backs play.

BTW, his name Kidney not Kickney in case you didn't realsie, it's not too difficult to check his name in the irfu website if you weren't sure.

louthandproud

Tim Robbins wrote: »

He was a disaster at Leinster. My fear would be he can't play a more expansive game. You attack your opponents where they are weakest. Ireland should have got out the backs and stretched the Argies - we didn't.

What is the point of picking Murphy when all he's going to do is kick it. So instead of Demsey kicking it back, you have Murphy kicking it back.

When a new Manager comes into a team, they should team should be inspired by just breath of fresh air and enthusiasm. This Irish team looks dour and anything but inspired.

A disaster at Leinster? Jees the penny still hasn't dropped, Leinsters woes had little or f-all to do with Kidney, a lot more to do with Leinster themselves, and an easy scape goat in Kidney.

P.C.

If you had to buy a business that was doing 'ok', but you knew it could do better, how long until you turn it arround??

One month?
Three months?
Six months?

I would say it would take between three to six months to turn it around, and then another 6 months to start preforming.

It is all about building a team.
You come in, and see what the existing team is all about - what can they do - what are their strengths and weaknesses. Do they need more training, can I fire them, etc.

Then you start building your team, brining in the people you want when you move on the people you don't want. You hope that the people you bring in will do the job, but if they don't, you might have to move them on.

Please give the man a chance.

And expect the Irish team to loose a few games in the next year or so, while he builds a team to be proud of.

Tim Robbins

P.C. wrote: »

If you had to buy a business that was doing 'ok', but you knew it could do better, how long until you turn it arround??

One month?
Three months?
Six months?

OK. I'll try to be clearer. I hate kicking Rugby. Full stop. I'd like to see an ELV which meant you could kick it once and once only until the ball went dead.

But alas it ain't there. Rugby is about running with the ball in your hands, not hoofing it up the field.

Too many times our backs kicked the ball when they should have ran, took a hit and set it up, if there was nothing on.

I have no confidence that Kickney wants to play Rugby I like. The style of Rugby is as important than winning.

Because if the Rugby is boring, I'll go and watch G.A.A. or Soccer.
At least in those sports the kicking is best on precision passing, not on this aimless "down town" kicking which is just hoping that your opponents might slice a kick or not be able to kick it as far as you.

In Soccer the most boring tactic is the long ball, but at least you have a striker who is trying to win the ball. The long ball equivalent in Rugby doesn't even have a team mate involved. It's pathetic.

I would say it would take between three to six months to turn it around, and then another 6 months to start preforming.

Well I hope there's most passing and running than what I have seen the last two games which have just been dreadful. From what I have seen Kickney wants to play terroritory which means endless kicking and not running Rugby. Sadly.

Sundy

The problem i had have is there doesnt seem to be a convincing game plan. The first thing kidney should be doing is implementing his game plan.

ellebelle

Deleted User wrote: »

We beat Canada and Argentina. Thats, in reality, what was expected of Kidney.

You can't expect a total change in two weeks. And calling for his head at this stage is the epitomy of all that is wrong with Irish rugby.

+1

Hopefully he was using these games to access the form of the players. I also hope he is going to a bit ruthless with selections. There are some players that should go now. John Hayes should - he has been fantastic but its time, a few other of the other more senior players should be slowly fading into the back ground too and get some of the new talent a chance to come through, get some experience and see whats working and whats not. There a some quite exciting players coming up through the ranks.

I'd prefer to see a poor performance while some players find their feet rather than the likes of what happened in the Argie game yesterday.

Blured

My main concern from the two games so far is the use of the bench. It just seems to be a continuation of the EOS policy - only to be used in the case of emergency or if the game is effectively over. No impact use of the bench again yesterday - only injury induced changes

That said, lets give the man some time. The team is only in place a few months and have had only three fixtures.

Tim Robbins

So does nobody else think we're kicking the ball too much? That too me is the biggest negative point from the last two tests. It's a regresive step to where we were with EOS and it's reminds me of the Eric Elwood era. The difference being we didn't have players who could run / pass then. To see players like Fitzgerald, Kearny, Murphy kick the ball when there is no need to, is just not congenial to how the sport should be played.

daveirl

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toomevara

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So does nobody else think we're kicking the ball too much?

Yes, but then so does everyone else..its a facet of the new ELVs, teams are loathe to take the ball into contact in their own half, because with the interpretations at the break down, a ref can easily hand possession to the attacking team in your own half if you take the ball to ground....

Much safer to lump it deep into your opponents half, follow up well and make them start from their own 22....

Stev_o

daveirl wrote: »

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Its got hardly anything to do with the ELV's this whole idea caught around the RWC 07 and never stopped. Do remember the first match between Argentina vs France? What did both teams do?

Seriously people stop using the ELV's as a scapegoat yes they do effect kicking but not as much as people think. It all has to do with the coaches telling their players to be conservative and not to loose possession at the contact area or concede a penalty there.

Chucky the tree

Stev_o wrote: »

Seriously people stop using the ELV's as a scapegoat yes they do effect kicking but not as much as people think. It all has to do with the coaches telling their players to be conservative and not to loose possession at the contact area or concede a penalty there.

Why do you think coaches are telling there players to avoid going into contact?

Stev_o

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why do you think coaches are telling there players to avoid going into contact?

Because its gotten to the point in international rugby where if concede a penalty in the breakdown (Considering kicks will be put inside your own half thus in kicking distance) and the fact if your turned over its a certain score of some sort thus you loose. Wait till a team grow a set of balls and run the ball and you ll see that defences are really in shambles when people kick

Chucky the tree

Stev_o wrote: »

Because its gotten to the point in international rugby where if concede a penalty in the breakdown (Considering kicks will be put inside your own half thus in kicking distance) and the fact if your turned over its a certain score of some sort thus you loose. Wait till a team grow a set of balls and run the ball and you ll see that defences are really in shambles when people kick

I dont know if teams will grow a pair of balls though. at the moments territory is huge in the game due the importance pentaly kicks have on a game. The only way I can think of trying to change this fact is by either increasing the number of points you get for a try or drop the points of a pentalty kick to be the same as a conversion.

Stev_o

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I dont know if teams will grow a pair of balls though. at the moments territory is huge in the game due the importance pentaly kicks have on a game. The only way I can think of trying to change this fact is by either increasing the number of points you get for a try or drop the points of a pentalty kick to be the same as a conversion.

Aye though i doubt that will happen its pretty **** that the game is being turned into league not by ELV's but management staff to afraid to risk loosing a game by running the ball.

Oh well one can only hope someone will cop on and think figure you can win a game alot easier by looking for space

old boy

there was a fair bit of hoofing at the arms park yesterday, i wonder why clubs in ireland bring in so many coaches with all the talent thats littering this forum

daveirl

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Stev_o

daveirl wrote: »

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Aye it didnt help calm things like was needed and thus made it worse and hence explains where we are today. Oh well, goddamn Argies

Valentia

When you look at the difference between Ireland (and the rest) and the All Blacks the ELV's have shag all to do with anything. The All Blacks do the basics excellently. Simple as that. They run faster, are more powerful, support each other (how often have you seen an All Black isolated after a break?) and of course they play more controlled and intelligently. To play on the edge of the rules the way they do requires a great deal of cuteness and intellect.

As for kicking too much? What has the alternative thrown up when we have tried it? Flat, predictable, paceless passing. Very rarely breaking the gain line. Opposition defences seem to be on top of our backs infinitely quicker that we are on top of theirs.

Another thing I noticed lately with Ireland (Munster were the very opposite the other night) is how slow we are to get to the breakdown and when we do get there there doesn't seem to be a great deal of conviction.

It would be grossly unfair to say that the lads are not putting in the effort but there is no cohesion. Part of the reason for that is definitely personnel.

siochain

daveirl wrote: »

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Were ELV's in during world cup? A lot of kick fests in WC.........

OK I read rest of posts

Aidric

How anyone would even question Kidney's position 3 games in beggars belief. There seems to be a staleness in the Irish side at the moment but I'm sure Kidney and his coaches won't shirk away from freshening things up for the six nations.

RugbyFanatic

Aidric wrote: »

How anyone would even question Kidney's position 3 games in beggars belief. There seems to be a staleness in the Irish side at the moment but I'm sure Kidney and his coaches won't shirk away from freshening things up for the six nations.

I think the staleness is in the backline.

Other than against Canada when did we ever look like scoring from backline moves?

Ireland also seem to favour crowding the backline with forwards

Gaffney has a lot to answer for IMO.

madds

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So does nobody else think we're kicking the ball too much? That too me is the biggest negative point from the last two tests. It's a regresive step to where we were with EOS and it's reminds me of the Eric Elwood era. The difference being we didn't have players who could run / pass then. To see players like Fitzgerald, Kearny, Murphy kick the ball when there is no need to, is just not congenial to how the sport should be played.

Did you hear Kidney's post match interview? In it he said that they purposely employed the kicking game as France were smashed back by Arg when they tried to play rugby in front of them. Kidney wanted Ireland to turn them and play off their mistakes. Not pretty but he said that's what was required to win the game.

phog

madds wrote: »

Did you hear Kidney's post match interview? In it he said that they purposely employed the kicking game as France were smashed back by Arg when they tried to play rugby in front of them. Kidney wanted Ireland to turn them and play off their mistakes. Not pretty but he said that's what was required to win the game.

I dont think we needed to hear Kidnay say that, anyone who watched previous Ireland/Argentina games would know it was going to be tough game for the forwards hence the kicking game and getting the ball behind them. We know it's not pretty but fat lot of good it would have been leaving Croke Park yesterday playing pretty and losing.

Serenity Now!

Sabre0001 wrote: »

The kicking game seems to have come in with the new rules - look at the Tri-Nations for example

Different ELVs in those comps. The main influence on play style in the Tri was the free-kick variation which isn't in effect anywhere now.

Biggest change on the field is the reffing of rucks as they are actually supposed to be (not an ELV, by the way). Teams due to this do not want to contest the ball in their own quarters hence the booting upfield.

Hardly a new phenomenon by the way. The amount of kicking in the last 6N and RWC was absolutely godawful.

Tim Robbins

madds wrote: »

Did you hear Kidney's post match interview? In it he said that they purposely employed the kicking game as France were smashed back by Arg when they tried to play rugby in front of them. Kidney wanted Ireland to turn them and play off their mistakes. Not pretty but he said that's what was required to win the game.

I suspect our backs would have destroyed them if they had been allowed to run with the ball.

Webbs

goodluck2me wrote: »

We were the first team to score a try against them in 3 matches, and they are ranked 4th in the world, a 17-3 is a very good win.

Against a full strength Argentinian team i would probably agree, but against a team shorn of its backline then no it was an average performance at best.
Would it have been the same result if Ireland had been without at least o'leary, o'gara, o'driscoll. I know you can only play what is in front of you but it was a disjointed performance

Sundy

daveirl wrote: »

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Everybody is kicking more alright but i was looking at the stats last night and we kicked more than any other team in then AI's.

Its a bit disappointing because we have so much more talent than just kicking the ball. I wouldnt blame the players really because im sure they are instructed to kick.

anonymous_joe

Sundy wrote: »

Everybody is kicking more alright but i was looking at the stats last night and we kicked more than any other team in then AI's.

Its a bit disappointing because we have so much more talent than just kicking the ball. I wouldnt blame the players really because im sure they are instructed to kick.

There's the crux of it.

Was reading an article (sorry I cant; find it, had a look) from a SH paper think twas a New Zealand one which pointed out that against New Zealand Wales kicked less than they had against South Africa, and only when they had a chance to kick accurately. As such, performance went up a lot.

Tim Robbins

Sundy wrote: »

Everybody is kicking more alright but i was looking at the stats last night and we kicked more than any other team in then AI's.

Its a bit disappointing because we have so much more talent than just kicking the ball. I wouldnt blame the players really because im sure they are instructed to kick.

Imagine you're an Irish back. You go to the Irish training camp.
You must learn at least 30 backline moves. You spend ages perfecting the lines and timing at training. You go to match scenario and everyone just kicks it as hard as then can.

That's the sum of it. Blaming the ways rucks are reffed is nonsense. You may loose one or two because you have to stay on your feet but not every single one.

Tim Robbins

Lads, this thread was basically about the amount of ball Ireland are kicking. Any chance we can stay on topic?

Chucky the tree

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Lads, this thread was basically about the amount of ball Ireland are kicking. Any chance we can stay on topic?

Well, you also asked if Kidney can produce the goods, so I'll need help on what you mean by "goods". Goods = attacking rugby yea? It certainly cant mean winning rugby matches anyway, I've figured out that much.

Crash

I've cleaned out this thread, removed anything that was unrelated to the initial topic or just a plain duplicate of the Ireland Argie or Ireland AB's threads. Keep it on topic.

anonymous_joe

On topic:

What does Kidney's approach married to his comments about wanting to beat a tough Argentina team say about him as a coach?

Walking out of Croke Park with my mate, I have to say the atmosphere was absolutely dead. It felt like a defeat. In that regard, lots of people have been on here and elsewhere making complaints etc about the game.

We won on Saturday - and won relatively comfortably against the 4th best team in the world. That is all true, and all wonderful. There is however, an obvious but. The Argentina side we faced is significantly weaker than that of the World Cup. Retirements have gutted that team, and the new coach is not held in as high esteem by the Argentinians as his predecessor. Moreover, in Contepomi and Fernandez, they were missing 2 of the world's best players in their respective positions.

They used a very impressive rush defence which allowed their limited but willing backs to completely shut ours down. Given how and the methods we used to attack, how much of that was decided by players, with the onus on teh half-backs who call the moves, and how much was decided by Kidney?

He got a win against a good team, but it wasn't a convincing win, and it was against a team with a pack but very little else on Saturday. Argentina are no longer 4th in the world, Rankings aside. Most people in Croke Park on Saturday could see and sense that, hence the complaints here and now.