Machine chest press Vs. Bench Press

gnolan

Today I was devastated by the shear gulf in variation between the weight i am capable of lifting.

Over 6 months I have been using the chest press machine only, and have made progress from lifting 35kg 3x8, to 65kg 5x5. So today, I decided to go for the free weights, knowing, from what i read, that they are a lot better for developing muscle (correct me if i'm wrong). I expected the bench press to be more difficult, so maybe i'll start with 55kg. I managed to squeeze out one press without defecating on the bench.

I then reduced this to 45kg....still too much. And finally 40kg, where i just about completed my 5x5. What muscles were I exercising with the machine, cos it sure doesn't seem to transfer to the bench press?

I'm hoping I can make some quick progress with the bench, to try to get up to 65kg, but I'm a bit demoralised after today. I might try to throw in some flys and push-ups in my routine to speed it along. Anyone have similar experiences or any advice?

fatal

bottom line...stick to free weights!

dave80

gnolan wrote: »

Today I was devastated by the shear gulf in variation between the weight i am capable of lifting.

Over 6 months I have been using the chest press machine only, and have made progress from lifting 35kg 3x8, to 65kg 5x5. So today, I decided to go for the free weights, knowing, from what i read, that they are a lot better for developing muscle (correct me if i'm wrong). I expected the bench press to be more difficult, so maybe i'll start with 55kg. I managed to squeeze out one press without defecating on the bench.

I then reduced this to 45kg....still too much. And finally 40kg, where i just about completed my 5x5. What muscles were I exercising with the machine, cos it sure doesn't seem to transfer to the bench press?

I'm hoping I can make some quick progress with the bench, to try to get up to 65kg, but I'm a bit demoralised after today. I might try to throw in some flys and push-ups in my routine to speed it along. Anyone have similar experiences or any advice?

As Fatal said, stick to the free weight youll become stronger and bigger

kevpants

gnolan wrote: »

Today I was devastated by the shear gulf in variation between the weight i am capable of lifting.

Over 6 months I have been using the chest press machine only, and have made progress from lifting 35kg 3x8, to 65kg 5x5. So today, I decided to go for the free weights, knowing, from what i read, that they are a lot better for developing muscle (correct me if i'm wrong). I expected the bench press to be more difficult, so maybe i'll start with 55kg. I managed to squeeze out one press without defecating on the bench.

I then reduced this to 45kg....still too much. And finally 40kg, where i just about completed my 5x5. What muscles were I exercising with the machine, cos it sure doesn't seem to transfer to the bench press?

I'm hoping I can make some quick progress with the bench, to try to get up to 65kg, but I'm a bit demoralised after today. I might try to throw in some flys and push-ups in my routine to speed it along. Anyone have similar experiences or any advice?

Heh heh. Well at least it was only 6 months and not 6 years before you realised. The main thing you were working on the machine was the cable linking the handles to the weight stack!

In all seriousness the reasoning here is that the machine was doing all the stabilizing of the weight and you were left to just push forward with all your might. Like riding a bike with training wheels. Now your muscles have to work to keep the weight steady and controled. You can't just push indiscriminantly against the bar. You're also using more muscle groups now, your back, your shoulders, triceps everything.

Don't bother with fly's and pushups, fly's especially, they're only effective if you're already a 16 stone bodybuilder. If you have access to a gym and I had to recommend two exercises it would be chin-ups & the JM Press (see vid below, first 4 minutes is just footage of JM hiimself but excellent instructions to follow):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxfzWbEKd6s

With a really light bar to start. Now I only started doing these correctly this week and have never felt a tricep exercise like it. I've never been able to get the technique right but my initial feeling after finally getting the hang of it is that they beat tricep extensions, dips etc hands down IMO.

The reason I recommend these two is because they'll work your back and your triceps and 99% of beginners ignore these. You'll get plenty of chest work out of the benching.

rubadub

kevpants wrote: »

Like riding a bike with training wheels. Now your muscles have to work to keep the weight steady and controled. You can't just push indiscriminantly against the bar. You're also using more muscle groups now, your back, your shoulders, triceps everything.

Thats it alright. Similar with pushups, the ground is the fixed object going nowhere, now try doing pushups on a couple of small footballs, or a pair of skateboards. Doing dips on rings is the same too, some lad here could do 35 "static" dips, but not a single one on rings (at first!).

On the upside you will probably quickly develop the other muscles, it is really a shock to the system to have to use them all at once, you will learn quick.

davyjose

rubadub wrote: »

Thats it alright. Similar with pushups, the ground is the fixed object going nowhere,

You're still stabilizing your body, it's not the same as a machine, where everything is held together
The only issue with pushups, as far as I can see, is that eventually you can outgrow, so to speak, the weight you are pushing (about 55-66% bodyweight iirc). In fact at this stage the op could do worse than sets of pushups to help with his bench.

gnolan

Well i'm going to persist and hope that i make some quick progress. I will throw in some pushups, maybe 3xfailure, if only for the reason that thay are handy to do.

As for the JM press, i think i'll give it a go instead of the tricep extensions. Think the gym's olympic bars might be a bit on the heavy side for for that exercise though, if so i'll work on the press and try it in a month or so.

kevpants, you mention chinups. Currently i'm not doing any chinups, not sure i'd be capable at the moment, but I use the Lat Pulldown machine; 50kg widest grip and 72.5kg with a narrow underhand grip. Currently i'm weighing in at 90kg, with maybe 8-10 kg still to lose. There is an assisted chinup machine but would i be better off sticking with the pulldown?

beggars_bush

assisted pullup machine

good machine for starting out

can be used for assisted dips as well

kevpants

gnolan wrote: »

.

As for the JM press, i think i'll give it a go instead of the tricep extensions. Think the gym's olympic bars might be a bit on the heavy side for for that exercise though, if so i'll work on the press and try it in a month or so.

kevpants, you mention chinups. Currently i'm not doing any chinups, not sure i'd be capable at the moment, but I use the Lat Pulldown machine; 50kg widest grip and 72.5kg with a narrow underhand grip. Currently i'm weighing in at 90kg, with maybe 8-10 kg still to lose. There is an assisted chinup machine but would i be better off sticking with the pulldown?

Good man. Your gym proabably has weighted barbells too. Try a 10kg one to start with. You need a little weight to get the groove of the press right.

Chinups are great. The lat pulldown is really about adding width to your back whereas as a beginner an exercise like chins would carry over better to your bench strength. Assisted chins have their fans, I'm not one of them. I personally belive doing a few sets of even 1 chinup is beneficial. 1 becomes 3 very quickly and 3 becomes 10. I just don't think you'll make the same progress on an assisted chin. If it's a pride thing don't be embarrassed about only doing 1 chin. You're in there to do what's best for you and anyone who'd laugh at someones chinning technique isn't worth considering.

BossArky

davyjose wrote: »

The only issue with pushups, as far as I can see, is that eventually you can outgrow, so to speak, the weight you are pushing (about 55-66% bodyweight iirc)

If I recall correctly Hanley, I and some other posters did a pretty (non) scientic experiment which involved weighing scales, push ups and varying hand positions. We ended up with calculations suggesting we were lifting approx 70% bodyweight.

gnolan

BossArky wrote: »

If I recall correctly Hanley, I and some other posters did a pretty (non) scientic experiment which involved weighing scales, push ups and varying hand positions. We ended up with calculations suggesting we were lifting approx 70% bodyweight.

I always wondered what %age you would lift with a pushup. I'd assume though, that if all your grips had you're upper arm perpendicluar to your chest then the percentage would be the same regardless of hand positions.

But it makes sense that the %age may be around 70% in the lowered position and around 65% in the upper position, with more pressure applied to the feet.

davyjose

BossArky wrote: »

If I recall correctly Hanley, I and some other posters did a pretty (non) scientic experiment which involved weighing scales, push ups and varying hand positions. We ended up with calculations suggesting we were lifting approx 70% bodyweight.

If that's so, then maybe what Rubadub suggests is true, that there's a lot more stabilization from a pushup than a bench. I can do at lease 30 pushups, but there's no way I could do 30 reps of a bench at ~60kilos.

I'd still recommend them as being a million times better for beginners (or anyone really) than a chest press machine.

Roper

Bit of misunderstanding here about push ups and bench presses. They only look similar. I've seen guys with savage bench presses and really crappy push ups and vice versa. There's similarities, but mostly there's differences.

Stability in a bench press is upper body, particularly shoulders, and trunk. Stability in the push up comes from the toes, legs, trunk right through the shoulders. The push up is best described as a total body exercise and while things like foot position are important in the bench, having feet is not vital to bench pressing*.

To feel the difference, hold the extended position in both exercises and see what starts to fatigue first. Depends on the subject but most people feel the lower abs and upper legs begin to shake in a push up, whereas most people find their shoulders start to shimmy in the bench. That's hardly empirical but it's a good trick to see the difference.

What's best for benching? I'd say first of all that I think the push up is a superior exercise, but not necessarily a good one if a big bench press is your target. To be honest I'm not sold on the bench as an exercise for those who want to just get fit anyway and I don't know much about building a good bench press as I've never had to build one or get anyone else to.

I'd also say as an add on that the vast, vast majority of people could do with banging out 40 good full ROM push ups before moving their hands onto unstable surfaces like footballs. Saying something like the ground is stable sounds good and unconventional, but most people are a long way off having the base strength to attempt that. It's really a recipe for hurting yourself if you're a neophyte. I saw a guy doing dumbell shoulder presses while kneeling one leg on a stability ball one day. With like, 10kgs in each hand. Might be a good thing to add on to a programme after you've picked up the 35kg bells and repped them, but absolutely pointless otherwise.



*don't jump on that, what I mean is that you can do a bench press without good foot contact. Might not be a good one but you can do it. Planche aside, you need feet on the ground to push up!

gnolan

This is great, i'm learning a lot, including planche: "taken from men's rings, this element requires the gymnast hold her body at a near-horizontal angle".

davyjose

Roper wrote: »

Bit of misunderstanding here about push ups and bench presses. They only look similar. I've seen guys with savage bench presses and really crappy push ups and vice versa. There's similarities, but mostly there's differences.

Stability in a bench press is upper body, particularly shoulders, and trunk. Stability in the push up comes from the toes, legs, trunk right through the shoulders.

My bad, I wasn't saying that pushups were a direct replacement for benching, but in comparison to machines, they are a much better option for starting out - they work a lot of the upper body muscles that bench does (and machines don't) such as strength in the shoulders and lats as well as (as mentioned) the stabilizing muscles. In other words pushups help give your body 'readiness' for benching, if you see what I mean.

Op, I personally believe that up until your bench >= your bodyweight, then pushups would be very beneficial in conjunction with the bench. That's just my opinion and probably not what many (who can bench bigger numbers than me) would advise.

gnolan

davyjose wrote: »

My bad, I wasn't saying that pushups were a direct replacement for benching, but in comparison to machines, they are a much better option for starting out - they work a lot of the upper body muscles that bench does (and machines don't) such as strength in the shoulders and lats as well as (as mentioned) the stabilizing muscles. In other words pushups help give your body 'readiness' for benching, if you see what I mean.

Op, I personally believe that up until your bench >= your bodyweight, then pushups would be very beneficial in conjunction with the bench. That's just my opinion and probably not what many (who can bench bigger numbers than me) would advise.

I think thats what i'll do anyway, I think the pushups will certainly help with my bench, it surely won't hinder it anyway, and hopefully assist with the progression of my bench.

Think i'll give the assisted chinup a go too, even put on 5kg or 10kg and squeeze out one or two.

Also, anyone who attends TF in sandyford, i assume that the bench bars are 45lb olympic bars??

dioltas

Roper wrote: »

I'd also say as an add on that the vast, vast majority of people could do with banging out 40 good full ROM push ups before moving their hands onto unstable surfaces like footballs.

What are ROM pushups, google wasn't too helpful. Good post btw.

Maybe decline pushups, with your feet elevated like on a step or end of a bed, would help more towards the bench seeing as it puts more of an emphasis on the upper chest and shoulders. Not sure about this though.

brianthebard

Rom=range of motion i.e. get your face down near the ground (or touch your nose on the the floor). Putting your feet on the bed would (a) make you a bit more unstabile making it harder (b) possibly make you press more weight since its above your shoulders. In either situation though there isn't more or less "emphasis" on an particular muscle-that's a bit of a non term imo.

Roper

davyjose wrote: »

My bad, I wasn't saying that pushups were a direct replacement for benching, but in comparison to machines, they are a much better option for starting out - they work a lot of the upper body muscles that bench does (and machines don't) such as strength in the shoulders and lats as well as (as mentioned) the stabilizing muscles. In other words pushups help give your body 'readiness' for benching, if you see what I mean.

Op, I personally believe that up until your bench >= your bodyweight, then pushups would be very beneficial in conjunction with the bench. That's just my opinion and probably not what many (who can bench bigger numbers than me) would advise.

I agree and I wasn't picking!

rubadub

davyjose wrote: »

You're still stabilizing your body, it's not the same as a machine, where everything is held together

davyjose wrote: »

If that's so, then maybe what Rubadub suggests is true, that there's a lot more stabilization from a pushup than a bench. I can do at lease 30 pushups, but there's no way I could do 30 reps of a bench at ~60kilos.

Same here, I could not bench anywhere near my pushup ability. I was not knocking pushups, I do them quite a bit still, inclined ones to make it harder. I don't bench at all, just do various dips.

Roper wrote: »

I'd also say as an add on that the vast, vast majority of people could do with banging out 40 good full ROM push ups before moving their hands onto unstable surfaces like footballs.

Yes, I wasn't recommending or suggesting to try them on the footballs, was just saying it is a similar sort of idea. When stability issues come into play its a whole new set of muscles interacting together. I think your body learns how to do them quickly, it is a skill/learning issue more than a strength one. i.e. I was able to do 12-13 static dips and 1 on rings when I first got them. After a short while I had dramatically increased the ring dips reps far quicker than others. e.g. I might have gone from 1 to 12 ring dip reps in 2-3weeks, there is no way I could have gone from 1 to 12 chinups in the same time with the same amount of time spent on them.

gnolan wrote: »

Think i'll give the assisted chinup a go too, even put on 5kg or 10kg and squeeze out one or two

I would highly recommend training negative chin & pullups some info here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055360288
I can do around 20chinups max but still train unweighted negatives. I did 12 slow pullups and about 8 negatives straight after yesterday and have doms in my chest and triceps today. I find I can stress different muscle to different degrees on pull/chinups, having your legs out in front works the abs well.


I gave some info on making your own chinup bar at home here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055404170