Colombia wants three republicans back in jail

Bottle_of_Smoke

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/colombia-wants-three-republicans-back-in-jail-14068949.html

The Colombia Three should be forced to return to South America because the training they provided to FARC guerrillas led to the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, the country’s Vice President has claimed.


In an interview with the Belfast Telegraph, Colombian Vice-President Francisco Santos Calderon said that the government is doing all in its power to have the three republicans returned to South America to face justice.

He also said that he has nothing more to say to Education Minister Caitriona Ruane who had spearheaded the ‘Bring Them Home’ campaign.

Niall Connolly, Martin McCauley and James Monaghan were sentenced to 17 years in a Colombian jail for teaching IRA bombmaking techniques to Colombian Marxist guerrillas, but fled back to Ireland.

Mr Santos however said that the Colombian government is hoping to soon have the trio returned to serve their sentence>>>>>see full article at link



From the webpages I've read recently I agree with Calderon, think these guys should face justice. I find it quite embarrassing they weren't sent back by the Irish government immediately.

Did the Irish Governement ever give a reason why they weren't sending them back? Is it now in the hands of British Government/Stormont?

There is one argument I read that all the evidence against them is circumstantial? any opinions from anyone more knowledgeble on the case or any suggested reading?

djpbarry

As far as I know, the three were interviewed by Gardaí, but no effort has been made to extradite them, which seems strange considering Interpol have issued a warrant for their arrest.

Nodin

I'd imagine that their continued liberty was part of the peace process. Thats unlikely to change.

djpbarry

Nodin wrote: »

I'd imagine that their continued liberty was part of the peace process. Thats unlikely to change.

I'm not sure the GFA covers Colombia?

FTA69

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

From the webpages I've read recently I agree with Calderon, think these guys should face justice. I find it quite embarrassing they weren't sent back by the Irish government immediately.

There is no justice in Colombia. The men were subjected to an absolute farce of a trial which involved the use of paid informers as witnesses, one of whom swore blind he saw Jim Monaghan train guerillas when in fact he was in Dublin at the time. "Evidence" was thrown out in one trial only to be reintroduced in another which was instigated at the behest of the state. A state, I might add, which arms and supports right-wing death sqauds such as the AUC. The Colombian state has an apalling human rights record and the army has been accused numerous times of exterminating indigenous Indians as well as its highest echelons being involved in the drug trade.

Did the Irish Governement ever give a reason why they weren't sending them back? Is it now in the hands of British Government/Stormont?

Why would it be in the hands of the Brits. The men are Irish citizens in a country with no extradiction treaty with Colombia. Why Irish citizens should be sent back to some tinpot state with an international record for abuse is beyond me.

They men are home now, and I wish the three of them all the best.

baztard

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

...
From the webpages I've read recently I agree with Calderon, think these guys should face justice. I find it quite embarrassing they weren't sent back by the Irish government immediately.
...

They faced a trial and were found not guilty of training terrorists. They were meant to stay in the country whilst awaiting an appeal, but they fled.

I think the reason they were not sent back to Columbia (apart from not having a extradition treaty) was that the trial process in Columbia was not seen to be fair by Irish standards, therefore it would be impossible to extradite them back.

So I think justice has been done. The 3 men were probably up to no good in Columbia but there was no solid proof of this.

Fratton Fred

Surely Ireland is expected to honour an interpol arrest warrant?

There may only be circumstantial evidence in their case, but there is a hell of a lot of it. Why were they there under false passports, why did they illegally abscond from the country. Why is the Irish government ignoring an interpol arrest warrant.

It makes ireland look a bit of a tinpot state to be honest

baztard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely Ireland is expected to honour an interpol arrest warrant?

There may only be circumstantial evidence in their case, but there is a hell of a lot of it. Why were they there under false passports, why did they illegally abscond from the country. Why is the Irish government ignoring an interpol arrest warrant.

It makes ireland look a bit of a tinpot state to be honest

I'd imagine they're not being arrested with regard to the interpol warrant due to the fact that theres no extradition agreement in place. What would be the point?

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely Ireland is expected to honour an interpol arrest warrant?

There may only be circumstantial evidence in their case, but there is a hell of a lot of it. Why were they there under false passports, why did they illegally abscond from the country. Why is the Irish government ignoring an interpol arrest warrant.

It makes ireland look a bit of a tinpot state to be honest

Why should Irish citizens be sent away by their own government to be subjected to a legal farce? They were already acquitted and what we then saw was the Colombian state intervening in the judicial process in order to retry them for the same offense. The whole thing was a debacle from start to finish.

Refusing to hand Irish citizens over to a state like Colombia isn't the action of a tinpot state, it is common sense.

Bottle_of_Smoke

FTA69 wrote: »

Why should Irish citizens be sent away by their own government to be subjected to a legal farce? They were already acquitted and what we then saw was the Colombian state intervening in the judicial process in order to retry them for the same offense. The whole thing was a debacle from start to finish.

Refusing to hand Irish citizens over to a state like Colombia isn't the action of a tinpot state, it is common sense.

The seriousness of the crime. You know as well as I do they trained these men in mortars which have killed and maimed thousands. And Sinn Fein/IRA reaped the benefits in huge cash payments. It's a travesty that they can get away with terrorism scot free.

I'm fairly convinced the government did a deal with the IRA over this to sweeten the GFA for the IRA.

FTA69

The seriousness of the crime.

That's irrelevant. You're the one going on about justice and legal process etc, the men were already acquitted because the forensic evidence was proved to be ridiculously circumstantial and the "witnesses" who were paid touts, lying through their teeth tripped themselves up by stating they were with the men in Colombia when in reality they were back in Ireland. You're under the impression they were found guilty, they weren't. What then occurred was the state (with one of the worst human rights records in the world) intervening in the judiciary to try the men again. This is blatant legal nonsense I'm sure you'll agree.

You know as well as I do they trained these men in mortars which have killed and maimed thousands.

I haven't a clue what they were doing to be honest, and neither do you to be honest. All we can have is an opinion.

And Sinn Fein/IRA reaped the benefits in huge cash payments

Ah here, that's just complete supposition. That isn't even resembling an informed opinion to be honest.

I'm fairly convinced the government did a deal with the IRA over this to sweeten the GFA for the IRA.

The IRA were on ceasefire almost 10 years before this whole episode occurred, the reason the men aren't being arrested is that there is no extradiction treaty with Colombia and the Irish state would have no power to deport them. As I said, the men were subjected to a kangaroo court which through the sheer bullsh*t from the prosecution, resulted in the men getting acquitted. They didn't decide to hang around to be returned to a jail where they would be targetted by government sponsored death squads, in order to wait for another farcical trial.

The issue is over, people should let it go. I've met Jim Monaghan a number of times and have nothing but the utmost respect for the man, him and the others should be left to get on with their lives without people baying for them to be sent back to Colombia to die.

podge79

I know its an extreme option but would it be acceptable that one of the conditions of the state fulfilling the interpol warrant was that any trial would be held in a neutral third party venue/country similar to what happened with the Lockerbie bombing case and if they were found guilty to serve their jail terms in an Irish prison.

I await the backlash.....

FTA69

podge79 wrote: »

I know its an extreme option but would it be acceptable that one of the conditions of the state fulfilling the interpol warrant was that any trial would be held in a neutral third party venue/country similar to what happened with the Lockerbie bombing case and if they were found guilty to serve their jail terms in an Irish prison.

I await the backlash.....

They were already tried and found innocent. Why should they be tried again because the Colombian state didn't get the result it wanted?

Furthermore, who the f*ck are the Colombians to be pontificating about international justice when their army is collaborating with right-wing paramilitaries and murdering defenceless Indians? They should be told go and whistle, they have zero credibility on the issue of justice.

podge79

well seeing as there are so many questions over the original trial and the appeal against their acquittal and the fact they do have serious questions to answer about their activities whilst there.

they weren't exactly there to buy coffee and look at the scenery!

Sand

I find it odd that some here denounce the Colombian justice system and the trial as a farce, yet find that the result of that farce [ acquittal ] is correct. Surely if the trial is as farcical as is claimed, the Colombian government were correct to seek an appeal?

As for why the men werent sent back, you have to remember Bertie "Shure give em whatever they want and **** the victims" Ahern was the guy entrusted with the defence of the law and the Irish state.

They men are home now, and I wish the three of them all the best.

Of course, Im sure the Provos are very grateful for the funds they raised in Colombia.

mikemac

podge79 wrote: »

they weren't exactly there to buy coffee and look at the scenery!

Nah, they were there bird watching, lol

Nodin

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure the GFA covers Colombia?

Bit more to the peace process than whats written in the GFA.

Regardless, as FTA points out, theres any number of reasons why they shouldn't go back.

Irlbo

Regardless of who they are,or what they were doing,they were aquitted,even though the trial was a farce,and Columbias appaling record of corruption,and it regards interpol and international arrest,who cares,interpol has its own agenda

Fratton Fred

The thing is, there is no official position on this. the men were questioned, an international arrest warrant issued and then they just vanish into thin air.

If there was at least some sort of reason from the Irish government as to why they are doing what they were doing, then it would give the whole thing a lot more credibility.

Frankie Lee

So what if they were training FARC guerrillas, that may be a crime but is it wrong for a country to seek freedom from a despot government and is it wrong to support them?

Irlbo

The Irish government dont have to answer for these men,they are not representing them or are in anyway affiliated to them,Columbia has a massively corrupt government,whose main interest is to make as much money as possible at the expense of its unfortunate working class,it hires right wing paramilitaries to do its dirty work,these men dont have to answer to a government of that calibre

It wasn't me!

Frankie Lee wrote: »

So what if they were training FARC guerrillas, that may be a crime but is it wrong for a country to seek freedom from a despot government and is it wrong to support them?

It's wrong for a state to attempt to interfere with the affairs of another state. It's wrong for a state to support and hide citizens that have provided paramilitary training to subversive elements in another state, without the sanction of their own, after the fact. So, while the Colombian rebel elements can do whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned, there should have been no Irish involvement by the paramilitaries, and when there was, the Irish government should have thrown the little dogs to the bigger dogs, to be seen not to support their own leash-free lunatics interfering in the affairs of a foreign country. Tacit support isn't as silent as the name implies.

It wasn't me!

Irlbo wrote: »

these men dont have to answer to a government of that calibre

Balls to that. Big, swinging balls. If I say I think the French government is disoriented and incompetent for getting Paris burnt down and looted every fifteen minutes, doesn't mean I should be immune to their judicial system. To say anything else is blunt stupidity.

Fratton Fred

Irlbo wrote: »

The Irish government dont have to answer for these men,they are not representing them or are in anyway affiliated to them,Columbia has a massively corrupt government,whose main interest is to make as much money as possible at the expense of its unfortunate working class,it hires right wing paramilitaries to do its dirty work,these men dont have to answer to a government of that calibre

Says who? if a democratically elected president ignored a sovereign state like that, there would be uproar, so why the **** can sinn Fein?

Frankie Lee

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's wrong for a state to attempt to interfere with the affairs of another state. It's wrong for a state to support and hide citizens that have provided paramilitary training to subversive elements in another state, without the sanction of their own, after the fact. So, while the Colombian rebel elements can do whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned, there should have been no Irish involvement by the paramilitaries, and when there was, the Irish government should have thrown the little dogs to the bigger dogs, to be seen not to support their own leash-free lunatics interfering in the affairs of a foreign country. Tacit support isn't as silent as the name implies.

So would you agree its wrong for the US to prop up the terrorists currently in power too.

It wasn't me!

Frankie Lee wrote: »

So would you agree its wrong for the US to prop up the terrorists currently in power too.

Yep.

Doesn't mean I think the Irish government should be offering not particularly tacit support for their own criminals over there helping the other side.

Frankie Lee

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yep.

Doesn't mean I think the Irish government should be offering not particularly tacit support for their own criminals over there helping the other side.

Fair enough but I would be of the opinion that the States priority should be the well being of her citizens not the international relations with a despot state.

It wasn't me!

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Fair enough but I would be of the opinion that the States priority should be the well being of her citizens not the international relations with a despot state.

The state's concern and sympathy for her citizens shouldn't prevent them being held accountable for their crimes in another jurisdiction.

Irlbo

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Balls to that. Big, swinging balls. If I say I think the French government is disoriented and incompetent for getting Paris burnt down and looted every fifteen minutes, doesn't mean I should be immune to their judicial system. To say anything else is blunt stupidity.

So by your logic,it ok when women sentenced by strict muslim judicial systems are to be stoned to death for alledged adultery in middle eastern sovreign states?

Frankie Lee

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The state's concern and sympathy for her citizens shouldn't prevent them being held accountable for their crimes in another jurisdiction.

I don't think the Colombian government have enough evidence to force them to extradited. What if this happened in the 90's in Iraq and Saddam Hussein wanted to put them to trial?

It wasn't me!

Irlbo wrote: »

So by your logic,it ok when women sentenced by strict muslim judicial systems are to be stoned to death for alledged adultery in middle eastern sovreign states?

Eh, no, my logic doesn't extend that way at all. If an Irish woman went to the middle east, committed adultery, and then sad she shouldn't be subject to the punishment becaushe she thinks the government is a bit crap, then, well, I wouldn't have enough sympathy to lend her a bicycle helmet.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

That's irrelevant. You're the one going on about justice and legal process etc, the men were already acquitted because the forensic evidence was proved to be ridiculously circumstantial and the "witnesses" who were paid touts, lying through their teeth tripped themselves up by stating they were with the men in Colombia when in reality they were back in Ireland.

So the trial was a bit of a farce? So don't you think that maybe a re-trial is in order?

FTA69 wrote: »

I haven't a clue what they were doing to be honest, and neither do you to be honest.

I've a pretty good idea. What do you think they were doing there?

Frankie Lee wrote: »

So what if they were training FARC guerrillas...

Yeah, it's only criminal activity; who cares, eh?

Frankie Lee

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, it's only criminal activity; who cares, eh?

And the Colombian government never takes part in criminal activity I suppose.

Irlbo

Frankie Lee wrote: »

And the Colombian government never takes part in criminal activity I suppose.

Sure they only wiped out afew dozen trade unionists on behalf of Coca Cola,all because the trade unionists wanted better working conditions and better pay,go forbid,the Columbian government,Farc,there are as bad as each other

getz

i have no sympathy for them

RedPlanet

who gives a **** what Columbia wants?

djpbarry

Frankie Lee wrote: »

And the Colombian government never takes part in criminal activity I suppose.

By that logic, it would be perfectly ok for me to pop over to Darfur to lob a few heads off with a machete.

rcecil

in having Fianna Fail stand trial for the use of Ireland's airports in kidnapping suspects and torturing them in other countries. Yeah money does speak very loud in this country... Having lived in Colombia I can attest to the corruption of Colombia's rightwing government and its use of Bush and Brit funding...

Irlbo

Columbia can sulk all they want,the lads wont be going back there,I know Jim Monaghan,he is an honourable decent republican,and a lovely human being,he never had any intensions in any of his actions to hurt or kill innocent civillains,if anyone tries to ship him back there,they'll have a fight on thier hands

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

I know Jim Monaghan,he is an honourable decent republican,and a lovely human being,he never had any intensions in any of his actions to hurt or kill innocent civillains...

...he often volunteers at the local orphanage. He single-handedly built a school in Nicaragua. He volunteers himself to test suspected landmine sites. He's donated all of his blood and organs to those less fortunate. He dresses up as Santa every Christmas and entertains the patients at the local children’s' hospital. Blah, blah, blah...

:rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

Irlbo wrote: »

Columbia can sulk all they want,the lads wont be going back there,I know Jim Monaghan,he is an honourable decent republican,and a lovely human being,he never had any intensions in any of his actions to hurt or kill innocent civillains,if anyone tries to ship him back there,they'll have a fight on thier hands

Was he training them for Olympic mortar shooting?


He's lovely and decent and nice as pie and might be the second coming, but you give an ominous warning should anyone try to send him back to face trial again? He sounds a dote.

Nodin

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Was he training them for Olympic mortar shooting?

Nobody knows what he was there for.

Irlbo

They travelled on false passports,that was the only crime they can prove against them,otherwise it was just three Irishmen travelling through Columbia,who happened to be in a demilitarised zone,but thats not a crime,and they have no proof that they were doing otherwise,I dont blame them for using false passports,because of their past membership of the IRA and the jail sentences they recieved previous,I dont blame them for taking a risk,just so they could travel

Irlbo

djpbarry wrote: »

...he often volunteers at the local orphanage. He single-handedly built a school in Nicaragua. He volunteers himself to test suspected landmine sites. He's donated all of his blood and organs to those less fortunate. He dresses up as Santa every Christmas and entertains the patients at the local children’s' hospital. Blah, blah, blah...

:rolleyes:

Cant say he's done any of the above,but he cares deeply about his country,the community he lives in,he has no malice in him,and is an all round sound guy,thats enough to tell me he's a decent skin

getz

lets get real we all know why they went to colombia -and so do you

Frankie Lee

getz wrote: »

lets get real we all know why they went to colombia -and so do you

Even if thats the case they were right to help a good cause.

Nodin

getz wrote: »

lets get real we all know why they went to colombia -and so do you

Something to do with the FARC. Apart from that, its speculation.

Irlbo

getz wrote: »

lets get real we all know why they went to colombia -and so do you

No tell me why?and prove it

FTA69

djpbarry wrote: »

So the trial was a bit of a farce? So don't you think that maybe a re-trial is in order?

Why? They were acquitted because the prosecution case was a shambles and all the evidence was, well, crap really. Why should they be tried again? Double Jeopardy?

I've a pretty good idea. What do you think they were doing there?

Haven't a clue.

getz

i am sure a large amount of cash was involved, so they dident go their just because they felt sorry for the drug runners in colombia

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

Why? They were acquitted because the prosecution case was a shambles and all the evidence was, well, crap really. Why should they be tried again? Double Jeopardy?

the verdict was overturned, according to Columbian law, they are guilty of training terrorists.