Ireland v Argentina; Croke Park, 22/11/08, 14:45 (pre/during/post discussion thread)

EdgarAllenPoo

Just read on Scrum.com that Dr. Phil is ill and will miss the game due to a hand infection. His replacement hasn't been named yet.
http://www.scrum.com/argentinatour/rugby/story/86313.html

Jello

Shame, I'm sure he was looking forward to running out in Croke Park. Will hopefully do us some good though.

il gatto

Got tickets. Can't wait. Never been to Croke Park before. Shame about Contpomi. Even though it suits Ireland not to have him playing, these big occassions need the big players.

toomevara

A massive, massive game for Ireland. Hugely significant. From what I've read the Pumas are on form and played well against Italy last week. Lineout/kicking game will be key.

crisco10

i hate being happy about injuries, esp about dr phil as I am a leinster STH. But this is good news for ireland, hopefully its contagious and the whole backline will get it from handling the same balls.

A match against the pumas is always a war of attrition. Lets pray we grind out a result...

mikedragon32

crisco10 wrote: »

i hate being happy about injuries, esp about dr phil as I am a leinster STH. But this is good news for ireland, hopefully its contagious and the whole backline will get it from handling the same balls.

A match against the pumas is always a war of attrition. Lets pray we grind out a result...

That's a real case of schadenfreude, albeit justified.

Get well soon Dr Phil, but not too soon!

This game is vital for Ireland, stating the obvious!!!!

toomevara

mikedragon32 wrote: »

That's a real case of schadenfreude, albeit justified.

Get well soon Dr Phil, but not too soon!

QFT.

Jilm

More tickets available for this one (@€;85, Davin stand, Collection only)...

http://www.irishrugby.ie/21_12789.php

Serenity Now!

crisco10 wrote: »

i hate being happy about injuries, esp about dr phil as I am a leinster STH. But this is good news for ireland, hopefully its contagious and the whole backline will get it from handling the same balls.

A match against the pumas is always a war of attrition. Lets pray we grind out a result...

After reading ROG's book, its clear that there is no love lost between these teams and I'm not just referring to him and Contepomi riling each other up.

This could be a classic game. Argentinian centres are now weakened in Felipe's absence (if he does stay out of game) but Hernandez is sheer talent at 10. Want to see the backrow wipe him off the field and put him off his game, like the All Blacks did to ROG last saturday.

anonymous_joe

Ah boo, I love Felipe. Great player.

Argentina are in teh doldrums at the moment, and the two teams should be relatively well matched. A win is an absolute must.

NotWormBoy

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ah boo, I love Felipe. Great player.

Argentina are in teh doldrums at the moment, and the two teams should be relatively well matched. A win is an absolute must.

To be honest, I think we should be beating Argentina - not by a lot, but still...

We should be able to do well in the line-out, though POC is a big loss. Scrum is a bit iffy as always. Getting in Fernandez's face is important, but since Argentina are probably going to be kicking it like there's no tomorrow, stick Kearney at the back (or Dempsey, but his counterattacking isn't as good as Kearneys) to catch them all day long. Our back line should be able to get past theirs a few times with BOD and Fitz playing well - more concentration in the oppositions 22 is need though obviously than we showed against NZ. Key areas as always are the back row - personally I'd go with Wallace, Jennings and Heaslip. Counter-attacking from Argentinian kicks will also be essential. Big case for Earls in the last 20/30 minutes. Not sure who'd be there from the beginning - Horgan hasn't really been setting the world alight, though he's not playing badly at the moment either.

Eoin

Do they do a random draw for each seedings tier of the world cup? It would be quite funny if we were in the same pool as Scotland, as it would make the 8/9th position irrevelant - unless I've missed something?

anonymous_joe

Scotland would probably be the best team in the tier below us, but there are plenty worse than them. And if we were down there, there'd be plenty better than us up above.

corny

The Argies never concede much. Watched their game against France recently and their committment to the cause was fantastic. Ireland will have to up the intensity considerably to beat them and i'm not sure we will. It would be a disaster if we lost becasue knowing our luck we'd end up with France and New Zealand in our group!

Pinetree Boy

eoin_s wrote: »

Do they do a random draw for each seedings tier of the world cup? It would be quite funny if we were in the same pool as Scotland, as it would make the 8/9th position irrevelant - unless I've missed something?

Yes it is random so luck of the draw is still relevant. But at least on current rankings wouldn't get situation of Ireland, Argentina and France in same pool. If Ireland dropped to 9th they do risk this sort of result.

Argentina also have a lot to play for. A loss could see them drop out of the top four.

Chucky the tree

How many points do Scotland have to ebat Canada by to take out ireland?

dave13

doesnt matter. Scotland dont get any points for winning, they'll just lose points if they lose. If we lose to argentina we'll lose enough ranking points to slip below Scotland assuming they win. If we beat or draw the argies we're good no matter what scotland do

Chucky the tree

Ares wrote: »

doesnt matter. Scotland dont get any points for winning, they'll just lose points if they lose. If we lose to argentina we'll lose enough ranking points to slip below Scotland assuming they win. If we beat or draw the argies we're good no matter what scotland do

Yea, just noticed. We'll lose about .60 according to my uber dodgy/half assed calculations.


Pretty funny it we lost.:pac:

anonymous_joe

If we lose we could fall behind Scotland apparently.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

If we lose we could fall behind Scotland apparently.

If we lose I think we will definitly fall behind them once Scotland win.

NotWormBoy

Which they will. Mind you, if Argentina win, and they keep their top 4 status, it might not be "as bad" as it might have been. If Argentina are seeded as top 4, we might end up in their group alongside England, Wales or France. Which is a lot worse than ending up in a group with SA/Aus/NZ and Eng/France. 1/4 chance but still. Better than nothing :-)

We could even end up in a group with of Argentina + Scotland + 2. Which would be the best group we could hope for even being in the 2nd tier.

[edit] Other than being in a group with Just Argentina + 3 (1 of which isn't Scotland).

Stev_o

Slightly OT but was anyone around Stephens Green near the AIB bank at lunch time today? There was a *protest*/HEY LOOK AT THIS of aload of Argies (exiles) gathered together reading off some cards about the UAR being in the 3 Nations, was all recorded and there was aload of posters and even a giant air pumped Puma trying to get attention to get themselves into the 3 Nations.

They were sponsored aswell which was interesting

anonymous_joe

Is that where the IRB office is?

Stev_o

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Is that where the IRB office is?

No which is what i said to my friend though i know the IRB office is near Stephens Green somewhere 35-38 St Stephen's Green to be precise but where the f*ck is that ^^ But yeah they filmed it so should make news one of the days

il gatto

I actually think the match in Limerick last night might help the Irish team. It was inspiring stuff and might shame them into bringing some real fight into the game. The professional "controlled" intensity seems have usurped the fire and brimstone that made Ireland worth watching for years. We were sh1te back then (90's anyway), but that was down to loads of things. There's still a place for dogged, cussed, bloodymindedness in the pro era. Nobody better to reintroduce it against than Argentina.

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

No which is what i said to my friend though i know the IRB office is near Stephens Green somewhere 35-38 St Stephen's Green to be precise but where the f*ck is that ^^ But yeah they filmed it so should make news one of the days

Aye.

They've an office out in Ballsbridge as well beside the RDS. Or that might be the Heineken Cup... Can't quite recall.

Serenity Now!

Stev_o wrote: »

Slightly OT but was anyone around Stephens Green near the AIB bank at lunch time today? There was a *protest*/HEY LOOK AT THIS of aload of Argies (exiles) gathered together reading off some cards about the UAR being in the 3 Nations, was all recorded and there was aload of posters and even a giant air pumped Puma trying to get attention to get themselves into the 3 Nations.

They were sponsored aswell which was interesting

They should be nowhere near the Tri Nations. Their playerbase plays in Europe. If they join any comp it should the 6N and base themselves in Spain as has been logically suggested before.......even by their own union!

Just because they're south of the equator, some numpties assume that hopping from NZ to Aussie to Sth Africa to Argentina constitutes a convenient comp???? Does it balls.

Serenity Now!

NotWormBoy wrote: »

Our back line should be able to get past theirs a few times with BOD and Fitz playing well - more concentration in the oppositions 22 is need though obviously than we showed against NZ. Key areas as always are the back row - personally I'd go with Wallace, Jennings and Heaslip. Counter-attacking from Argentinian kicks will also be essential. Big case for Earls in the last 20/30 minutes. Not sure who'd be there from the beginning - Horgan hasn't really been setting the world alight, though he's not playing badly at the moment either.

Don't be surprised if Geordan Murphy gets the call at fullback. The backrow looks like being Ferris, Wallace and Heaslip with Jennings on bench. Tomás O'Leary should start again, in my opinion.

twinytwo

Team should be
1Horan
2 Flans
3Hayes
4DOC
5POC
6Ferris
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip
9 O'leary
!0 Rodge
11Earls
12Fitz
13Drico
14Bowe/Horgan
15Kearney

End of.. All this crap of putting Murphy/Dempsey in FB is comical

Does anyone if contipomi is injured or not??...

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

End of.. All this crap of putting Murphy/Dempsey in FB is comical

How is it "comical"? They're good players and playing well this season.

twinytwo wrote: »

Does anyone if Contepomi is injured or not??...

No, which means he's probably fit.

twinytwo

Serenity Now! wrote: »

How is it "comical"? They're good players and playing well this season.


No, which means he's probably fit.

Kearney is better at FB than both... And what exaclty did Dempsey do against the AB's?.. as i recall nothing

toomevara

twinytwo wrote: »

And what exaclty did Dempsey do against the AB's?.. as i recall nothing

Dempsey had a good game, solid and dependable, Ok he's not all singing, all dancing/mercurial, but erratic, like say the Geordan Murphys of the world, but he's a massively experienced FB who rarely, if ever, puts a foot wrong for province or country...the guy reads a game like few FB's can and his positioning is first rate...

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

Team should be
1Horan
2 Flans
3Hayes
4DOC
5POC
6Ferris
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip
9 O'leary
!0 Rodge
11Earls
12Fitz
13Drico
14Bowe/Horgan
15Kearney

End of.. All this crap of putting Murphy/Dempsey in FB is comical

Does anyone if contipomi is injured or not??...

How is it comical? Dempsey had a bad game, as did a few others, he's been superb for Leinster all year and kept the 15 shirt from Kearney.

As for Geordan Murphy, the most naturally talented attacking player we've had over the past decade other than O'Driscoll? A genuine world class full back comical? Earls starting an international after what, 8 games for Munster? That's comical. I just checked and he's started 6 games, and come in 5 others. In his two HC games he looked slightly off the pace. I've no doubts he'll be a great player for years to come, but there's no way he's good enough to start.

twinytwo wrote: »

Kearney is better at FB than both... And what exaclty did Dempsey do against the AB's?.. as i recall nothing

If he's better than both, why is Dempsey full back for Ireland and Leinster?

Eoin

Serenity Now! wrote: »

No, which means he's probably fit.

He has a hand infection.

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Dempsey had a good game, solid and dependable, Ok he's not all singing, all dancing/mercurial, but erratic, like say the Geordan Murphys of the world, but he's a massively experienced FB who rarely, if ever, puts a foot wrong for province or country...the guy reads a game like few FB's can and his positioning is first rate...

Problem is, Dempsey's very hard to appreciate. It's only when you see him in a stadium not watching the tv that you see how good his positioning is, and how clever some of his attacking running can be.

Serenity Now!

eoin_s wrote: »

He has a hand infection.

Not a ruse at all then? I don't think the Pumas team has been named yet, has it?

old boy

anonymous_joe wrote: »

How is it comical? Dempsey had a bad game, as did a few others, he's been superb for Leinster all year and kept the 15 shirt from Kearney.

As for Geordan Murphy, the most naturally talented attacking player we've had over the past decade other than O'Driscoll? A genuine world class full back comical? Earls starting an international after what, 8 games for Munster? That's comical. I just checked and he's started 6 games, and come in 5 others. In his two HC games he looked slightly off the pace. I've no doubts he'll be a great player for years to come, but there's no way he's good enough to start.



If he's better than both, why is Dempsey full back for Ireland and Leinster?

did not bod play for ireland before he played for leinster

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

Kearney is better at FB than both... And what exaclty did Dempsey do against the AB's?.. as i recall nothing

If this is your criteria for selection, then Ireland would only have two, possibly three players, in the team on saturday that played against the All Blacks.

Eoin

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Not a ruse at all then? I don't think the Pumas team has been named yet, has it?

Oh sorry, I get you now. Could be a bit of gamesmanship going on alright.

Eoin

old boy wrote: »

did not bod play for ireland before he played for leinster

Yes, and captained Ireland before captaining Leinster as well.

crisco10

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Problem is, Dempsey's very hard to appreciate. It's only when you see him in a stadium not watching the tv that you see how good his positioning is, and how clever some of his attacking running can be.

QFT.

Dempsey, while never going to beat 10 defenders on the counter attack to score a try, is a very intelligent runner of the ball. When he does run it back, he more often than not creates go forward ball by beating at least one man and only be hauled down. he never gets thumped back in manner that may lead to a turnover. Basically what I am saying is he does pick his times carefully to run the ball back.

Although, I do think you notice how good Dempsey is at positioning on the TV. Purely cos he never seems to be running desperately after a kick to field it. At worst he is underneath it on the first bounce. The amount of times he just is there is far too high to be anything other than pure skill...

anonymous_joe

old boy wrote: »

did not bod play for ireland before he played for leinster

BOD was better than Earls is at that age. Earls is going to be great, but he's not as good as BOD was then, and the game's a lot less forgiving now.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

BOD was better than Earls is at that age. Earls is going to be great, but he's not as good as BOD was then, and the game's a lot less forgiving now.

You are probably right about Dempsey - he was probably the only one who didn't have a nightmare against the Argentinians in the World Cup as far as I remember, so it might be a good call to play him.

By the way, ROG, Springer and a few more made their Ireland debut at about the same age as Earls is now. Mind you though, Hickey & Bowe had nighmares as far as I remember - both had to learn to tackle.

thehighground

crisco10 wrote: »

QFT.

Dempsey, while never going to beat 10 defenders on the counter attack to score a try, is a very intelligent runner of the ball. When he does run it back, he more often than not creates go forward ball by beating at least one man and only be hauled down. he never gets thumped back in manner that may lead to a turnover. Basically what I am saying is he does pick his times carefully to run the ball back.

Although, I do think you notice how good Dempsey is at positioning on the TV. Purely cos he never seems to be running desperately after a kick to field it. At worst he is underneath it on the first bounce. The amount of times he just is there is far too high to be anything other than pure skill...

You don't score with negative play. Ireland's attach was very blunt against the ABs.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

You are probably right about Dempsey - he was probably the only one who didn't have a nightmare against the Argentinians in the World Cup as far as I remember, so it might be a good call to play him.

By the way, ROG, Springer and a few more made their Ireland debut at about the same age as Earls is now. Mind you though, Hickey & Bowe had nighmares as far as I remember - both had to learn to tackle.

I like Earls from what I've seen so far. I'm not a Munster fan, but I've seen him playing a few times now, and he looks like he's got loads of talent, but he's nowhere near the finished article yet. In a game we desperately need to win, I'd be wary of starting someone so young, who would be targeted by some lethally talented players.

It's easy to forget that the game against Scotland where all those youngsters started was at a time when Gatland was desperately close to losing his job. It was a case of nothing left to lose.

Rattlehead_ie

Ireland Team (V Argentina, GUINNESS Series 2008, Saturday November 22nd, Croke Park, 14:45)

15 – Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
14 – Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 – Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) Capt.
12 – Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
11 – Robert Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
10 – Ronan O’Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 – Tomas O’Leary (Dolphin/Munster)

1 – Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster)
2 – Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)
3 – John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)
4 – Donncha O’Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 – Paul O’Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 – Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 – David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)
8 – Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Replacements:
16 – Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
17 – Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
18 – Malcolm O’Kelly (St.Mary’s College/Leinster)
19 – A.N. Other
20 – Eoin Reddan (Wasps)
21 – Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)
22 – Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)

No surprise in the forwards, but to see Murphy back in at full back is an "interesting" choice
O'Leary gets his 2nd starting cap and I think this is well deserved.

19 - AN Other....... I wouldn't have left space for the quinlan appeal to be honest. with the comments from the judges "He should have gotten a red card"
I would have PROBABLY put Jennings on the bench instead.

Jackz

15 – Geordan Murphy (Leicester)

14 – Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)

13 – Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) Capt.

12 – Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)

11 – Robert Kearney (UCD/Leinster)

10 – Ronan O’Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)

9 – Tomas O’Leary (Dolphin/Munster)

1 – Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster)

2 – Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)

3 – John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)

4 – Donncha O’Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)

5 – Paul O’Connell (Young Munster/Munster)

6 – Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)

7 – David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)

8 – Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 – Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)

17 – Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)

18 – Malcolm O’Kelly (St.Mary’s College/Leinster)

19 – A.N. Other

20 – Eoin Reddan (Wasps)

21 – Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)

22 – Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)

anonymous_joe

Woohoo! Geordan's back! And Mal! Yay.

Noopti

Interesting team. Hopefully Ferris will get in their half backs faces!

Tim Robbins

Jackz wrote: »

15 – Geordan Murphy (Leicester)

Why isn't Kearny playing full back?

anonymous_joe

Because Murphy's playing very well there?