From Atheist to Christian:my story

midlandsmissus

Some-one on another thread asked me to tell my story of how I turned form being an atheist to a Christian. Here it is:

I'm 25, and it was only this year I fully turned to religion.

When I was little, my Dad wasn't any religion, and my mum was a severely lapsed catholic. She would argue with everyone about the bible and God and Jesus. I grew up to think that people who believed in that kind of stuff were absolute morons. I would think "How on earth can they be so stupid", especially as they would usually have no argument for anything they believed in, they would just say "when you believe you believe". However I would still think about God, Heaven, and religion a good bit. i would look up information on it, and would question everything.

I then went to college, and I joined the choir. It was a religious choir, and I wasnt religious but I really wanted to sing, so I joined it. Through that, I heard some of christianitys teachings, and as everyone there was a catholic, and I wasnt a catholic I actually went and talked to a priest about what it would take to become catholic. I felt left out more than anyhting. I abandoned the idea when i realised I would only be doing it to fit in with everyone else, I didnt really believe. I realised that wasnt a good enought reason to do it So that was the end of that.

Then, a young girl in our area was killed in a lone car crash, she was an absolutely lovely girl, kind, happy all the time, beautiful. And that just absolutely cemented my disbelief. I would think, "Of all the people on the earth, how on earth did she deserve to die". And "How could there be a God, how could he let that happen, how could he let her family suffer so much". I remember sitting next to a nun on a bus once, and she was talking to me about God, and I questioned her about how he could let that happen to that girl.And she said "Why do people always blame God, they never blame him downstairs"And then she asked was the girl going really fast. And I said no, it was dark, and it was a really bad road. And the nun said "Well then you should blame the county council for the roads". and i wasnt really getting it. I didnt like her answers.

So then one night I was desperately unhappy in bed over an irrelavent thing. I was tossing and turning, I absolutely thought I couldn't go on I was that miserable, and then I felt instantly comforted, I felt like there was an angel in the room. I cant really explain it but I really felt like there was some-one in the room with me, comforting me.

But I still didnt believe it all. I read the bible at this stage, and I hated that it was so anti women. I thought "Why should I believe in a God who obviously hates women".I hated the bit where men come visiting and the man says "Have my daughters and do whatever you like with them" and then he was still honored by God. I had huge trouble with this.

Then I ended up moving jobs and working beside a christian youth group. I became friendly with one of the guys and he would come in and talk to me about stuff. He said to me "The bible was not written by god, it was written by men in a time when women were subservient, God does love women". And he said that maybe the young girl who had died in the car crach had learned all she needed to on this earth and she could go to heaven. And that made sense to me because she was the happiest smiliest person ever. Maybe she had learned all she needed to know. and about her parents he said "All our spirits have to go through suffering to learn how to grow". so then for the first time it made sense to me.

Then, I signed up to this online 30 day journal with different christian lessons, but due to being busy at work I didnt read them. Then I had a nasty fall down stairs and sprained my back, I just happened to look at one of the christian journal things the next day and it said "In life we have to take a stumble, so God can pick us up", or someting to that effect. It was actually more detailed and relevant to my situation, so I thought wow.

It was then i first started to pray to God, and I said i was sorry i had turned away from him, that I really believed in him now, and that I loved him. And I felt a feeling I have never felt before. It was like my body was vibrating on a higher frequency, and I was absolutely filled with peace. I get that same feeling everytime I pray now. I haven't looked back, I feel so much better in general. I hope my story is of some use to people, I took a very long time to get here, but i got here in the end.x.

P.S. Something else happened to me, its only now i look back and think about it. When I was a little girl I was in bed one night, and I had this kind of black, hard backed reflective chair in my room. and I woke up one night and there was a face as clear as day in the chair. And it was the face of Jesus. I'm sure I saw it. I remember hiding under my covers cause I was scared at first. I remember it so clearly, who knows what it means? I wouldnt even try to make sense of it!

Goduznt Xzst

It seems from your story that you have always been gravitating towards Christianity on some level.

Your parents, did they ever teach you about how humans have evolved?

Fanny Cradock

As many denominations and Christian individuals see no difficulty with accepting evolution there is little point in discussing it here.

Go to the B,C and P thread if you want to discuss evolution/ creationism.

Puck

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It seems from your story that you have always been gravitating towards Christ on some level.

Fixed that for you.

Thank you for your story midlandmissus.

midlandsmissus

Do you think so Goduznt?

No they never taught me anything like that. I have talked to my mum about it since and she said she had a terrible time with nuns beating her as a sick child in hospital which turned her against religion. Which is very sad, because alot of people her age who have have suffered abuse have probably gone against the church. She still doesnt like religion at all. I have said to her that I believe in God now, and she said to me "whatever makes you happy is a good thing". I worry about her, but hopefully she'll find her way too.

kelly1

That's a great story MM. Thanks for sharing that with us!

EDIT:

It was then i first started to pray to God, and I said i was sorry i had turned away from him, that I really believed in him now, and that I loved him. And I felt a feeling I have never felt before. It was like my body was vibrating on a higher frequency, and I was absolutely filled with peace. I get that same feeling everytime I pray now. I haven't looked back, I feel so much better in general.

This reminds me of the story of the prodigal son. I once had an experience several years back where I cried like a big baby when it hit me how sinful a life I was living. But I also realized how much God loved me and how He's always waiting with open arms ready to forgive us and fill us with His grace. I was the prodigal son that day!

I know what you mean about vibrating on a higher frequency. It's a truly wonderful feeling when you can feel the Holy Spirit at work. You realize how loving God is and how He wants nothing but good for us. It brings so much peace to know that you're in harmony with God.

Wreck

Can I have your daughters and do whatever I like with them?

Fanny Cradock

No, but you can have a warning instead. Please behave.

axer

I get from your post that you are (or at least were) both scared and lonely. I don't mean that in a bad way but I think that you have the power and control over your own life without the need of a superpower. You can make changes to your life to improve it - to make you happy. It is a scarey world out there at times but you need to realise that there are some things in life you cannot control but there is a lot that you can.

The nun you talked to on the bus said that if anyone you should blame the county council and not god but think about this quote:

Epicurus, Greek philosopher, BC 341-270 wrote:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

If the bible was written by man and skewed to suit their views at the time that women are (were) subservient then what makes you think that the rest of the bible (the so called word of god) is not just the word of man skewed to suit his needs at the time?

My overall point being that you can make yourself happy - you don't need a superpower or religion to do that for you.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As many denominations and Christian individuals see no difficulty with accepting evolution there is little point in discussing it here.

Go to the B,C and P thread if you want to discuss evolution/ creationism.

As an Ex-Christian come Atheist there are plenty of reasons why I would ask this question and why it is relevant. Also, these "many denominations" that you speak of accepting evolution, what percentage of all the Christians worldwide do they make up?

I don't know of any Christians personally that say they accept that humans evolved over time from Primates. Most might accept that animals have the ability to evolve over time but they still hold that humans where created separate and that the story of Adam and Eve actually happened as it was described in the Bible.

Regardless, the OP has said she was not raised to understand evolution so it is not relevant to why she decided to become Christian. I was merely asking as I was curious as to the thought process of working the ideas of evolution into her newly gained beliefs.

Fanny Cradock

Grand. Though I think I am correct in stating that denominations like Catholicism and Anglicism accept evolution. If you wish to explore the thought process behind those Christians who do accept evolution then you may wish to read up on theistic evolution or 'biologos' as I've heard it called.

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I don't know of any Christians personally that say they accept that humans evolved over time from Primates. Most might accept that animals have the ability to evolve over time but they still hold that humans where created separate and that the story of Adam and Eve actually happened as it was described in the Bible.

As a catholic I'm open to the possibility that we evolved from primates and also to the possibility that man is an exceptional case in that God created the first man's body directly as argued in the article below.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_011.htm

lugha

Thank you very much for your extensive account of your story MLM, I found it very interesting. As I said on the other thread I am a non believer but would genuinely like to understand something of the view from the other side. I can’t quite shout “eureka” just yet, your I suspect your story will likely bring me closer than would the tales of those born and bred in a Christian tradition. Contrary to what others might suspect, it is not my intension to challenge your beliefs but I do have one query, again if you care to answer it.
How do you resolve your current Christian beliefs with your old atheist arguments? Do you now find the latter flawed? Does your faith render them redundant? Do you see difficult questions and mysteries from either standpoint but find the Christian perspective more appealing / credible / rewarding / fulfilling? Or something else? Again than you for your story.

Handsome Bob

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Then I ended up moving jobs and working beside a christian youth group. I became friendly with one of the guys and he would come in and talk to me about stuff. He said to me "The bible was not written by god, it was written by men in a time when women were subservient, God does love women". And he said that maybe the young girl who had died in the car crach had learned all she needed to on this earth and she could go to heaven. And that made sense to me because she was the happiest smiliest person ever. Maybe she had learned all she needed to know. and about her parents he said "All our spirits have to go through suffering to learn how to grow". so then for the first time it made sense to me.

Firstly, thank you very much for sharing and as an open minded agnostic it's great to hear a story like that. I especially liked how that person highlighted to you how the bible was written by men of their era, which is a great point.:)

But I have trouble with the above quote. My godmother died of cancer at the age of 38, leaving a 7 year old girl parentless and being the second child of her parents to have died in tragic circumstances. My godmother was also a victim of misdiagnosis of her cancer not once (in 2001) but twice (went a year unnoticed by doctors and she died in 2006).

Please don't think that I'm being rude but does it sound like my godmother had fulfilled her life?

Biro

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I don't know of any Christians personally that say they accept that humans evolved over time from Primates.

Kelly1 and myself make two Christians. So now you know of two!

The Mad Hatter

Goduznt Xzst - let's be fair, atheism doesn't have everything to do with evolution. I'm an atheist and have never had more than a passing interest in evolution or indeed science in general.

midlandmissus - no religion doesn't mean atheist. If I may ask, what gave you the idea that God was real?

midlandsmissus

Hi axer. I totally understand your point about the bible. I would say that as the bible is written by men and not God I would not find it to be the exact truth. It was people recounting stories at the time. I believe the original origins to be true: that Jesus and God exist, but it is obviously taking on people's opinions of the time. If you look at the new testament, it is not half as sexist , maybe reflecting views at that time?

I am really going by my own feelings, dreams and strange experiences, that I really believe there is Jesus and God.

To LZ5by5. No of course i don't think you're rude. Believe me I struggled with the death of the young girl in my area more than anything else. I would never even begin to think I understand anything, only that by thinking this particular girl had maybe fulfilled all she had to do on earth, well, that gave me a bit of peace about it.

midlandsmissus

Themadhatter - I was an atheist. I didn't believe in god. That is my understanding of atheism anyway - not believing in God- i could be wrong - is there more to it?

And why did I think god was real.It was really when i started praying to God, and i just felt this feeling totally different to anything I'd ever experienced. Thats when I really thought God was real, and that i was talking to him.

Handsome Bob

midlandsmissus wrote: »

To LZ5by5. No of course i don't think you're rude. Believe me I struggled with the death of the young girl in my area more than anything else. I would never even begin to think I understand anything, only that by thinking this particular girl had maybe fulfilled all she had to do on earth, well, that gave me a bit of peace about it.

Hey, that's totally fine, faith can be a wonderful thing when it gives you strength like that. I have to admit I'm a little embarrassed by what I said, I let myself carried away, I never usually criticise one's beliefs. As Barack Obama would say religion should be a very personal thing between you and your God.

midlandsmissus

lugha wrote: »

Thank you very much for your extensive account of your story MLM, I found it very interesting. As I said on the other thread I am a non believer but would genuinely like to understand something of the view from the other side. I can’t quite shout “eureka” just yet, your I suspect your story will likely bring me closer than would the tales of those born and bred in a Christian tradition. Contrary to what others might suspect, it is not my intension to challenge your beliefs but I do have one query, again if you care to answer it.
How do you resolve your current Christian beliefs with your old atheist arguments? Do you now find the latter flawed? Does your faith render them redundant? Do you see difficult questions and mysteries from either standpoint but find the Christian perspective more appealing / credible / rewarding / fulfilling? Or something else? Again than you for your story.

Hi Lugha,

Most of my old arguments would have been about the catholic church and the bible. I still do not agree with many of the things the catholic church impose. I think they are a power hungry organisation inflicting fear on people. Thats not what religion should be about at all. you should have your own conversation with God, or go to a place where you can joyfully celebrate God. I have been to a few methodist masses and the difference to the catholic masses is unbelievable. I basically dont think you really need the bible at all to have a relationship with God. Its between you and God. I dont find my atheist arguments flawed now. i think God would want you to question everything and then find out the answers for yourself. When I look back I see myself as finding my way.I dont see different questions/mysteries from either viewpoint and then go with the one the most rewarding. I questioned everything, and i mean everything, and I didnt call myself a christian until I was FULLY sure I was there. I remember people asking me to go to a mass, and i was like 'Im not ready, Im not fully there yet'.All I can say is I was completely an atheist, then I was in questioning everything for a good while, and now Im completely a christian. Please ask me all you want, I'd be glad to answer!

rockbeer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Please ask me all you want, I'd be glad to answer!

I'm a bit confused

Not trying to undermine or contradict your personal experience... but it sems to me that one of the key elements of atheism is to understand that personal experience is inherently flawed as a guide to whether or not god exists.

Partly because it's purely anecdotal and unverifiable, partly because it's so culturally informed (if you'd been an ancient Greek you'd almost certainly have discovered Zeus in your hour of need rather than the christian god), and partly because it's well documented that all the experiences people describe as 'religious' can be experienced without any need for superstitious belief. I'm sure there are other reasons to but these are the ones that come to mind.

So, two questions:

As an atheist were you aware of these arguments?

And if so, what was it about your experiences that convinced you to abandon them?

midlandsmissus

one of the key elements of atheism is to understand that personal experience is inherently flawed as a guide to whether or not god exists.



Hi rockbeer,

My total understanding of what an atheist was, was: not believing in God. Im sure theres more details to atheism, but thats all i thought it was. Am I using the term loosely then? Its very easy to do that. After all I can say Im irish but I wouldnt know the exact details of every aspect of Irish history. Do you think it would be better to say in my story then that i simply didn't believe in God, instead of calling myself an atheist? I dont really understand what you're saying above,...if you could explain it?

2Scoops

Surely a Christian or an atheist is someone who has looked thoroughly into the issue and made a decision one way or the other. What you have described is someone who was essentially 'undecided', albeit de facto non-believing, for a long period of time, but who then investigated the evidence and made their decision.

My point is, is it really correct to self-identify as a Christian or an atheist before you have investigated the matter?

rockbeer

In essence you're right, atheism = "without theos" - without god. It requires no thought or particular outlook to hold this view - if you don't believe in god you're an atheist. Simple.

However, many of us atheists have given lots of thought to our reasons for not believing in god. One of the defences virtually all christians offer for their belief is that personal experience tells them god exists. I'm just offering a few reasons why personal experience might be an unreliable basis on which to draw such massive conclusions as that the christian god exists.

I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, but since you ask, try thinking about the following:

How do you know your personal experience is correct when that of so many other people contradicts it?

How do you know the christian god exists when so many people, both now and in history, have believed just as fervently in other gods and belief systems?

How do you know that your experience was really god talking to you rather than the psychological tricks of a mind in need of comfort? The power of belief is astonishingly strong. Some Australian Aborigines believe that their souls are stolen if they are photographed. And if you photograph them, they actually die. Are they really having their souls stolen, or is it just the power of belief?

But in the end most people will trust their experience no matter how misguided, so these kinds of arguments usually fall on deaf ears.

midlandsmissus

2scoops are you not contradicting yourself here?

Surely a Christian or an atheist is someone who has looked thoroughly into the issue and made a decision one way or the other.

What you have described is someone who was essentially 'undecided', but who then investigated the evidence and made their decision.

I did thoroughly investigate the Christian religion. I could not have investigated it more thoroughly. I talked to all manner of religious officials, I talked to to other Christians, I read the bible, I questioned everything in it and looked up further information. I questioned everything into the ground, and THEN I finally made my decision to become a christian.

I am saying I called myself an atheist, because whenever i said to anyone that i didn't believe in god, they would say to me "Oh so you're an atheist". I would rather say I JUST DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD rather than look up the inner details of what atheism is now. If I have wrongly called myself an atheist I apologise. Lets just say I didnt believe in God.

midlandsmissus

Hi rockbeer,

I welcome an intelligent argument, and just quickly glancing through your last post there, it looks very interesting, and I am going to come back and answer all your points!!

I have to get off the internet now though so will get back to you later, take care

2Scoops

midlandsmissus wrote: »

2scoops are you not contradicting yourself here?

Surely a Christian or an atheist is someone who has looked thoroughly into the issue and made a decision one way or the other.

What you have described is someone who was essentially 'undecided', but who then investigated the evidence and made their decision.

I did thoroughly investigate the Christian religion. I could not have investigated it more thoroughly. I talked to all manner of religious officials, I talked to to other Christians, I read the bible, I questioned everything in it and looked up further information. I questioned everything into the ground, and THEN I finally made my decision to become a christian.

I am saying I called myself an atheist, because whenever i said to anyone that i didn't believe in god, they would say to me "Oh so you're an atheist". I would rather say I JUST DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD rather than look up the inner details of what atheism is now. If I have wrongly called myself an atheist I apologise. Lets just say I didnt believe in God.

I'm not contradicting myself. Before you investigated the matter, you formed your opinion from a position of ignorance. Once you educated yourself on the meaning of being Christian or being atheist, you made your decision.

Gareth37

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It was then i first started to pray to God, and I said i was sorry i had turned away from him, that I really believed in him now, and that I loved him. And I felt a feeling I have never felt before. It was like my body was vibrating on a higher frequency, and I was absolutely filled with peace. I get that same feeling everytime I pray now. I haven't looked back, I feel so much better in general. I hope my story is of some use to people, I took a very long time to get here, but i got here in the end.x.

I also get this feeling of the Holy Spirit going through my body. It is quite extraordinary and only comes with the truth. I was quite holy when I was younger but never really understood religeon maybe but Im now 26ish and Ive been gradually going through conversion. I think Im very close to becoming a decent person now but I have so much making up to God to do, I just hope I ahve the time.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

P.S. Something else happened to me, its only now i look back and think about it. When I was a little girl I was in bed one night, and I had this kind of black, hard backed reflective chair in my room. and I woke up one night and there was a face as clear as day in the chair. And it was the face of Jesus. I'm sure I saw it. I remember hiding under my covers cause I was scared at first. I remember it so clearly, who knows what it means? I wouldnt even try to make sense of it!

That shocks me because I think that or something similar happened to me when I was about 12 or so. I woke up in a sweat and found myself compelled to give a promise to God. I also hid under the blankets and tried to put it out of my mind.


My view is on it that God maybe had a plan for us or knew we were going to experience evil i.e. He wanted us to experience life before coming back to him with great wisdom. Over the past few years I felt compelled to commit acts of sin, different types of sin. I think Ive nearly commited every sin there is apart from murder. Then once I had this done I found myself being converted through the help of the Holy Spirit and Our Lady. I have so much belief in the Rosary.

What do you think the meaning of this is? I mean you saw a vision of Jesus but wanted to put it out of your head but life led you to going back to Jesus, why is this?

j-bone

thanks for the post Midlandsmissus,,i have a similar story,, (basically dragged out of a self-destructive spiral and into faith) so really enjoyed reading your testimony,,peace be the journey.

kelly1

j-bone wrote: »

thanks for the post Midlandsmissus,,i have a similar story,, (basically dragged out of a self-destructive spiral and into faith) so really enjoyed reading your testimony,,peace be the journey.

Would be great to hear your testimony j-bone!

Fanny Cradock

2Scoops wrote: »

I'm not contradicting myself. Before you investigated the matter, you formed your opinion from a position of ignorance. Once you educated yourself on the meaning of being Christian or being atheist, you made your decision.

I don't see the problem. midlandsmissus lacked the belief in God (and I assume any other metaphysical agents) - this is then atheism. Upon reflection of Christianity she became a Christian.

As an aside, do you think that all atheists came to their decision by informed investigation?

djeddy

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Themadhatter - I was an atheist. I didn't believe in god. That is my understanding of atheism anyway - not believing in God- i could be wrong - is there more to it?

And why did I think god was real.It was really when i started praying to God, and i just felt this feeling totally different to anything I'd ever experienced. Thats when I really thought God was real, and that i was talking to him.

Hi MM,

I think you experienced what pope john paul would call the look of love

The look of christ

Fanny Cradock

Was that not Burt Bacharach?
:pac:

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Themadhatter - I was an atheist. I didn't believe in god. That is my understanding of anyway - not believing in God- i could be wrong - is there more to it?

And why did I think god was real.It was really when i started praying to God, and i just felt this feeling totally different to anything I'd ever experienced. Thats when I really thought God was real, and that i was talking to him.

I think what the atheists are getting at is why did you start praying to something you didn't think or believe was there?

Perhaps you always held a view that the Christian god could exist. You sound more agnostic than atheist.

Gareth37

j-bone wrote: »

thanks for the post Midlandsmissus,,i have a similar story,, (basically dragged out of a self-destructive spiral and into faith) so really enjoyed reading your testimony,,peace be the journey.

What religeon are you?

djeddy

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Was that not Burt Bacharach?
:pac:

Maybe it was,but john paul also wrote about the look of love,:D

About jesus christ love for us, and the feeling of his loving presence in our lives,
Which jp2 called the look of love to or the look of christ :cool:

2Scoops

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't see the problem. midlandsmissus lacked the belief in God (and I assume any other metaphysical agents) - this is then atheism. Upon reflection of Christianity she became a Christian.

I am pointing out that self-identifying as something you do not fully understand is meaningless. While she may not have believed in God, she didn't dig deep into why, so the non-belief was shallow. Once simple investigation was done, she decided that she is Christian. So, was it really atheism at the beginnning or simply a lack of understanding of the issue?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As an aside, do you think that all atheists came to their decision by informed investigation?

Of course not.

Nodin

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Was that not Burt Bacharach?
:pac:

ABC, actually...

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I did thoroughly investigate the Christian religion. I could not have investigated it more thoroughly. I talked to all manner of religious officials, I talked to to other Christians, I read the bible, I questioned everything in it and looked up further information. I questioned everything into the ground, and THEN I finally made my decision to become a christian.

I assume you investigated the other religions as thoroughly, to be sure those feelings you were getting weren't from some other deity who is now miffed?

axer

Dades wrote: »

I assume you investigated the other religions as thoroughly, to be sure those feelings you were getting weren't from some other deity who is now miffed?

That is a good point. Why christian without fully checking out the other religions first?

Goduznt Xzst

axer wrote: »

That is a good point. Why christian without fully checking out the other religions first?

I think if you had to volition and perception to examine all religions that man has created throughout history before choosing one you wouldn't choose one at all. Most people end up in a religion that is geographically and culturally the nearest to them. Their choice of religion is based mainly on sentiment not logical assessment of what makes their religion more believable than all other present and past religions.

It all comes down to a "hunch" or "feeling" or "emotional experience"... usually fuelled by a knowledge of what beliefs are the most culturally acceptable, or followed by ones peers.

Fanny Cradock

Dades wrote: »

I assume you investigated the other religions as thoroughly, to be sure those feelings you were getting weren't from some other deity who is now miffed?

And no doubt you have? I would actually seriously question the practicality of investigating every religion out there. Given the limitations on our time, I would also think it is highly unlikely that through investigations would be possible.

There comes a point where one has found something to hold true and you work back from that point. Atheist are no different from Christians or Muslims in this regard.

Fanny Cradock

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It all comes down to a "hunch" or "feeling" or "emotional experience"... usually fuelled by a knowledge of what beliefs are the most culturally acceptable, or followed by ones peers.

Of course this isn't always the case. One could point to the Persecuted Church thread PDN started for examples. On a personal level, I have found that professing my Christian faith amongst my peers borders on the unacceptable. Why, sometimes the look on people faces swings from disbelief to disappointment.

rockbeer

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

There comes a point where one has found something to hold true and you work back from that point. Atheist are no different from Christians or Muslims in this regard.

I know what you're saying but I don't agree. For the vast majority of religious people, what they find to 'hold true' is heavily culturally informed. The vast majority of people stick with, gravitate to or return to the religion they grew up surrounded by. Conversion between religions happens, but rarely. This suggests there is something other than truth at work.

The only honourable course, surely, if you want to believe in something fantastic and unverifiable, is to research all the options, otherwise how can you be certain that your faith isn't just an expression of cultural conformity? I often why more christians aren't disturbed by the knowledge that if they had been born elsewhere or in a different time they would almost certainly be equally devout hindus or muslims or something.

It's different for atheists - we've rejected all forms of superstitious belief in deities so we don't need to research them all - we can wait for someone to bring us evidence.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And no doubt you have?

Your comparison doesn't hold. An Atheist doesn't need to know the intricacies of every religon, they only need know that there are no religions that base their knowledge of God(s) on fact.

The onus is on the one who claims to be a believer to examine all the differing religious beliefs to be sure that the unknown that they put their faith in is actually the correct one.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Of course this isn't always the case. One could point to the Persecuted Church thread PDN started for examples. On a personal level, I have found that professing my Christian faith amongst my peers borders on the unacceptable. Why, sometimes the look on people faces swings from disbelief to disappointment.

The majority of religious groups feel they are/have been persecuted to some extent, and tend to use this as a proof that they are the true religion because of this persecution, this is nothing new.

Also I never said peer acceptance was a requisite of forming a belief, rather it can act as a catalyst in the same way that the culture you have been raised in has been a catalyst for the faith you now have.

There are of course other areas of influence, the religion of a culture an individual visited and admired, the religion of a partner, or a religion that meets the personally held opinions that an individual had before finding the religion. However, for the majority, the culture in which an individual is raised in tends to be the biggest catalyst to cause an individual to join a religion.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

There comes a point where one has found something to hold true and you work back from that point. Atheist are no different from Christians or Muslims in this regard.

Well atheists tend to generalize, where as religious people, such as Christians, tend to go the opposite direction and specialize.

Atheists tend to abstract out the conclusion that because they have determined that the supernatural gods of the handful of religions they are aware of human inventions, most likely all gods are human inventions, created following a similar process to the ones they have looked at, such as the human instinct to apply agency to the natural world. Someone taking this seriously though should be mindful that this is still a generalization. It is possible, though I would say unlikely, that some religion some where that I'm not aware of did have a concept of a god that does map back to a real deity.

Religious people on the other hand go the other way. They hone in on a specific set of specific doctrine and dogma associated around the more general and vague feelings and tendencies of, for example, a supernatural presence.

So you have people going on a journey from a feeling of awe when looking at say a baby all the way along to believing specific passages in a specific holy book.

To me this journey would require far more careful study of the different paths open to the believer than the opposite journey an atheist takes. And I'm not just saying that because I'm an atheist. Arguably the atheist path towards generalization is far easier than the religious path to specifics, though both the believer and the atheist would admit that there is far more a stake in getting the latter wrong. If someone finds the religious path quick and easy it is hard to not think that possibly they just accepted one of the first religions that presented itself. This would lead to the question of why the person is religious in the first place. Is it simply that they were missing something in their life that any religion (or most) could fill? If so the choice of religion that the person ends up comes down to more of a lottery of birth.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Atheists tend to abstract out the conclusion that because they have determined are of the opinion that the supernatural gods of the handful of religions they are aware of human inventions, most likely all gods are human inventions, created following a similar process to the ones they have looked at,

Fixed.

rockbeer

Wicknight wrote: »

If so the choice of religion that the person ends up comes down to more of a lottery of birth.

It is demonstrably an accident of birth, otherwise we would expect to see far greater numbers of intra-faith conversions than is in fact the case.

It's also worth pointing out that if any one religion were actually true, we might expect various different cultures to have arrived at it independently. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to imagine that intelligent people might have been able to work out such a huge thing without reference to each other. Or that the true god might have revealed himself in different parts of the planet to give more people the opportunity to accept him. As it is, every religion is specific to its geographical locus, and reflects this plus the cultural and sociological imperatives of its creators, making sociological explanations for them far more convincing than the idea that any of them are true. No two religions are alike (other than those that stem from the same root), which points strongly towards none of them being true.

PDN

rockbeer wrote: »

It is demonstrably an accident of birth, otherwise we would expect to see far greater numbers of intra-faith conversions than is in fact the case.

In many cases religious belief is indeed down to an accident of birth. However, for millions of people it is demonstrably much more than that.

It's also worth pointing out that if any one religion were actually true, we might expect various different cultures to have arrived at it independently.

That is quite a leap of logic.

It is perfectly reasonable that God revealed truth to one specific group at a given point in time and entrusted them with the responsibility to spread the word.

Also, would you apply the same logic to non-religious aspects of truth? If Pythagora's theorem (or natural selection, or the theory of relativity) were true then would you argue that we should expect various cultures to arrive at it independently.

rockbeer

PDN wrote: »

In manyvirtually all cases religious belief is indeed down to an accident of birth. However, for millions of people it is demonstrably much more than that.

Fixed If we're talking proportions there's no comparison.

PDN wrote: »

It is perfectly reasonable that God revealed truth to one specific group at a given point in time and entrusted them with the responsibility to spread the word.

Also, would you apply the same logic to non-religious aspects of truth? If Pythagora's theorem (or natural selection, or the theory of relativity) were true then would you argue that we should expect various cultures to arrive at it independently.

Given enough time, yes. Perhaps not at the pinnacle - your examples were barely within the capabilities of a single human let alone an entire culture. But for lesser knowledge, yes, and we see this in action in many branches of knowledge (although strangely not in faith). Scientists working independently on similar research frequently mirror each others' work.

Why is it 'reasonable' to assume that god would entrust the spreading of the word to one privileged group? If he loved us all equally wouldn't he have wanted to give us all equal opportunity to celebrate him. Think of all those poor wretches deprived of god's word for aeons before missionaries and cable TV brought them into the frame. Why on Earth would god want that for them?

Besides, what if something terrible had happened to wipe out his chosen people before they could get the word out? Plague, or genocide, or a massive asteroid collision for instance. The whole world might have been deprived. How would that have fitted in with the plan? Not to mention the terrible inter-religious wars that have blighted humanity for millenia and still do. According to your reasoning an all-knowing god would know this would be the outcome of not sharing himself around but still chose to do it that way. He must have wanted us to fight with each other like kids in the playground over whose religion was correct.

Phototoxin

And why did I think god was real.It was really when i started praying to God, and i just felt this feeling totally different to anything I'd ever experienced. Thats when I really thought God was real, and that i was talking to him.

This is the part I have trouble with. You really believed he was real when you talked/prayed to God. But surely one must beleive first. Like if i didn't believe someone was in the room beside me I wouldn't talk to them. Talking to someone who isn't there and who I dont believe in wont make them appear so I am confused.