If an 11 stone man was attacked by a 14 stone man......

Shmuck

in the street, would he be able to generate enough force to knock the 14 stone man out by striking him, either with his fist or palm? This is just your average blokes on the street fighting, not specially trained in any discipline etc. Also don't say the 11 stone man should just run away because he has been backed into a corner and therefore has to fight his way out.

So bascially I'm just wondering would he be able to knock the 14 stone bloke out, or would he need self defense training first in order to do so, or would self defense training not even be enough given the difference in weight of the 2 blokes?

jono,b

definitely, no matter how big a guy is he still has a chin, so he can be ko'd if he gets hit right!

easyontheeye

of course its possible, im only a bout 11.5 stone and most of my mates (for example lol not that i going around sizing them up) are about 12-14 stone and i know id knock most of them out, doesnt matter what size you are if you can fight then you can do damage.

MichaelDevlin

Yes he "could" ko him but if two untrained people are fighting the heavier guy has an advantage

easyontheeye

MichaelDevlin wrote: »

Yes he "could" ko him but if two untrained people are fighting the heavier guy has an advantage

+1 there are so many variables around this too. same can be said if he has longer arms, more intelligence, younger, older, faster, slower...

obviously more mass equals more force...

Khannie

jono,b wrote: »

definitely, no matter how big a guy is he still has a chin, so he can be ko'd if he gets hit right!

Yup. Anyone with a heartbeat can knock you out if they hit the right spot. Of course an untrained person is less likely to do so, but is it possible? Sure.

cowzerp

Knocking someone out is not that easy no matter how big you are!
if you can hurt them enough to disorientate them that should do it, at 9 stone you could do that, even lower TBH, the smaller fella would want to be ready to follow the 1 punch up with more untill the situation is safe though!

And the better thing to do would learn something that will help you in the situation, running, boxing, mma or maybe krav maga or something..

Nothingcompares

I agree with the general view that there is no physiological reason why a 11 stone guy who is very fit, strong and coordinated couldn't throw a "lucky punch" catch a 14 stone guy on the button and floor him. I'd say it's very unlikely unless 14 stone guy was completely blindsided or the 11 stone is very lucky. I'd say the same for the 14 stone guy trying to knock a 11 stone guy out with one punch too.

Raze_them_all

Fight or flight responce, increases strenth and reflexes, no reason he wont be able to

arybvtcw0eolkf

How long is a piece of string?.

Dragan

Mairt wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?.

This long.


With regard to the question at hand I know 14 stones guys who are soft as **** and i know 11 stone guys who are hard as nails.

I thought we stopped worrying about size after the Gracies shined a light?

yomchi

I thought we stopped worrying about size after the Gracies shined a light

I think you'll find that light shone a lot longer for many years before the Gracies.
Sure didn't David slay Goliath?

It's not the size of the man in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the man.

FruitLover

Mairt wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?.

American string or European string?

arybvtcw0eolkf

FruitLover wrote: »

American string or European string?

North American, the piece of string the grizzle bear was going to choke out the polar bear (armed only with European string) with..

Now, who'd win that one. The Polar or the Grizzle bear?.

If the 11-stone guy could throw those 11 stones behind his punch, yes he'd floor the 14-stone guy.
Now it's getting that 11 stone weight behind the strike that's the hard bit....

Shmuck

Deleted User wrote: »

If the 11-stone guy could throw those 11 stones behind his punch, yes he'd floor the 14-stone guy.
Now it's getting that 11 stone weight behind the strike that's the hard bit....

Are stiff punches (where you don't put much speed and effort into the punch) better and more effective than punches where you basically put all your energy into throwing a powerful punch? Or are you unlikely to knock someone out with a stiff punch?

FruitLover

When you're talking punches, speed is power. The kind of punch you call 'stiff' is the type you see people with little or no training throw - the kind where they tense up the antagonist (opposing) muscles as well as the agonist (driving) muscles. This might 'feel' strong (I reckon it's because your brain thinks 'hey, I'm using more muscle power, therefore it must be strong!'), but in reality, you're just taking away power from the punch.

The only muscles that should be tensed during a punch are those driving forward the punch, and maybe your forearm muscles (to stabilize your wrist), and this should be an explosive power coming from your driving foot, engaging your hips, torso and shoulder.

yomchi

Are stiff punches (where you don't put much speed and effort into the punch) better and more effective than punches where you basically put all your energy into throwing a powerful punch?

I'm not being a smart arse here, but I think you answered your own question in a way. Strange that.

Dragan

Jon wrote: »

Sure didn't David slay Goliath?

Was David a Dillman student?:pac:

pearsquasher

Go to www.fantasticcontraption.com and see how many ways there are to move a little ball into a target area using limited 2-D physics.

Now imagine that ball has a brain and you can also fool it into moving certain ways that it thinks will stop it getting to its target - and you'd get even more clever solutions.

There's some clues on how to effect a heavier mass than you, which has a brain.

ryoishin

liver shot!

Shmuck

what about elbows to the face, are they more effective for self defense than punches?

Clive

1.357 times more effective.

FruitLover

Clive wrote: »

1.357 times more effective.

It's closer to 1.359 times - you're forgetting to factor in the difference in wind resistance.

yomchi

What about an Iron bar

Shmuck

Clive and Fruitlover- when don't you both **** off and stick a wodge of kitchen paper up your hole, might stop the drittle seeping out. Pikey ****ers.

Clive

Shmuck wrote: »

Clive and Fruitlover- when don't you both **** off and stick a wodge of kitchen paper up your hole, might stop the drittle seeping out. Pikey ****ers.

Okay I've got the kitchen paper up there - send me your credit card details and I'll send you a link to the live feed. :P

Don't be angry just because you're only 11 stone and are intimidated by 14 stone men - perhaps using the metric system might make you feel better?

Roper

Kitchen paper?

Drittle?

Pikeys?

Metric System?

C'EST FANTASTIQUE!

yomchi

WTF is a wodge?

Roper

Oddly enough, I didn't know what drittle was until that post but I did know what a wodge was.

Shmuck

internet cliquery at its worst

Clive

This kitchen paper is getting pretty soggy - if you don't send me your credit card details soon, I'll have to "log off".

Dragan

Clive wrote: »

metric system

Less of this talk of magic and mystery please Clive.

Metric System? That right up there with dinosaurs for being dolally.

As for Shmuck, anybody else wanna pop him in for an award for most fitting user name?

beGood

Forget elbows to the face, the best self defence is to eat your way up to 14 stone and that will even up the odds. Or if you're very dedicated eat your way up to 15 stone and then you are invincible. :rolleyes:

yomchi

Roper wrote: »

Oddly enough, I didn't know what drittle was until that post but I did know what a wodge was.

Well I knew what drittle was*
















*No i didn't

DeVore

Back on topic please, ta.

Speaking as an 11 stoner (ok... 12 stone since recently but I'm back in training)... I would concur with the replies on page 1, its more then possible to knock out a 14 stone guy but getting the strike right will be a lot trickier.

If you are talking about being in a street fight, most guys with that big a size advantage would be looking to smother you so more effective would be grapples and knees (I'm thinking Muay Thai here).

(On a related note, my trip to Thailand last year brought me in contact with the Irish government representative who said that about once a month some plonker of a paddy decides to try out the "all comers" muay thai contests that you find there occasionally and get put in hospital with concussion. According to him, a lot of the big irish guys think they will crush the small, light Thai guys )

DeV.

Nothingcompares

DeVore wrote: »

If you are talking about being in a street fight, most guys with that big a size advantage would be looking to smother you so more effective would be grapples and knees (I'm thinking Muay Thai here).

I think everyone has their own opinion on "what happens in a street fight" but I have to ask you what you have based this statement on? Have you seen a lot of "big guys" fight "little guys"? Have you been in a lot of street fights? have you seen lots of videos of street fights? Have you heard a lot of stories about street fights?

I don't think there are too many common traits between fights that happen on the street.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I don't think there are too many common traits between fights that happen on the street.

Common traits, well in my experience what most street fights share in common is two fucking morons who couldn't box eggs swinging big farmer hooks and kicking like sissies.

In over 15yrs working doors in bars and clubs I've probably seen a handfull of lads who could genuinely fight.

Small, medium or big it usually came down to aggression and intent. And in a very tiny minority a genuine ability to fight.

So, serious answer. Could an 11st guy KO a 14 stoner - absolutely no problem at all.

tallaght01

Just look at the forces involved. The force generated by an 11 stoner could easily knock out a 14 stone guy.

Forget his knees....I'd be goin straight for the scrote!

DeVore

He described being backed into a corner by a big guy. Seems obvious enough what happens after that. Not that its any of your business per se but yes, I grew up in a rough area and have lived in north central for most of my life and have had more then my fair share of fights. Most street fights are messy and rather *unlike* bar scene brawls in the movies with their clean swings and cracking connection to the chin of the opponent only for him to come back and do the same. A real fight being much messier and fair bit of collar/shoulder-grabbing grappling with the odd dig thrown in.

Personally, I'm 5'10 and 11.5 stone (nearly) but what I cant understand is, if the guy is 14 stone and presumably a few inches taller here, whats wrong with a good old fashioned knee to the jewels?

DeV.

Nothingcompares

So we have expert number one saying "all" street fights consist two blokes throwing digs and kicking like sissies all over the place and we have expert number 2 saying all street fights involve the bigger bloke clinching the smaller bloke. One expert analysis is based on watching drunks get in rows in pubs/outside clubs and the other is based on growing up in a rough area.

I don't think it's too unfair of me to say there is no expert or informed view here, its all based on anecdotal experience. That is why I'm calling into question any statements made given in the form of facts.

If you are talking about being in a street fight, most guys with that big a size advantage would be looking to smother you so more effective would be grapples and knees (I'm thinking Muay Thai here).

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nothingcompares wrote: »

So we have expert number one saying "all" street fights consist two blokes throwing digs and kicking like sissies all over the place and we have expert number 2 saying all street fights involve the bigger bloke clinching the smaller bloke. One expert analysis is based on watching drunks get in rows in pubs/outside clubs and the other is based on growing up in a rough area.

I don't think it's too unfair of me to say there is no expert or informed view here, its all based on anecdotal experience. That is why I'm calling into question any statements made given in the form of facts.

And where did I (or the other chap) claim to be "experts" or even an authority?.

I related my views based on my experience, whats your been sunshine?.

Your talking through your hole.

DeVore

Yeah, I would have thought that real world experience is more then "anecdotal", what were you looking for... a survey? statistics? "Our analysis shows that 73% of fighters with a weight advantage of over 25% favour a clinch approach, Jason whats your view on this data"...

You asked me for a basis for my opinion. You seemed to think I would go "err... me mate told me" but instead you got an answer that as an 11 stone (at the time) bloke, I have some experience to back up my opinion. You'll find I rarely post unless I do.

Now, what exactly has crawled up your @rse and died today?

I've seen 16 stone foreign guys *schooled* by 14 year old Thai champions in Chang Mai Stadium (which convinced me there is something to this martial art). So, I dont have a MORI poll to offer you but I have plenty of informed experience to back up my opinion.

DeV.

ryoishin

Regardless of hight, size or weight, if your ass is on the line hit as effectively as you can.

Niall Keane

http://www.shadowhand.com/wudang/dd_f.html

pic on here, where Dan Docherty of PTTCI weighing 12 Stone, has knocked out Roy Pink 18.5 Stone, in the semi finals of 1980 South East Asian Lei Tai Championships.

Nothingcompares

I had a much longer post here but I've scrapped it and condensed it into the following because I feel it's offtopic.

Mairt/Dev - nothing personal, no disrespect intended.

Street fights are violent unlawful interactions between people or groups of people. They are by their nature chaotic, random, dangerous and unique.

I don't believe any further generalisation on the topic is acceptable even it is made by SBSD professionals or Police.

My problem with what Mairt said is that yes it may be true for his circumstances (working on a pub door) but I don't believe it's true in general (there are many many other different types of Street fight/ violent encounter that takes place far away from night clubs).

My problem with what Dev said is similar, it may be true for a very particular context (One bigger bloke fighting another bloke over something trivial with drink on board) but isn't applicable as a generalisation for the wider context.