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Kettlebell Training
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16-11-2008 8:35pm#1
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12kgs isn't going to do much for you. Is that the heaviest in the gym?
The lightest most people use for strength training is 16kgs.
That's what I thought, I was surprised at how light they are... but mind you tried a few kind of Squat thingies with em a couple of weeks' back. Said I'd do two sets of a hundred.
After the first 100 I knew I wasn't getting a second set - so after 50 of Set 2 I staggered over to the water fountain bandy-legged and light-headed and waving a white flag!
So it looks like 12kg might be heavy enough for me!
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Ah you're talking about kettlebell swings then? doing 100 is just painful, without any real gain other than a bit of endurance and a lot of crying when you sit on the crapper the next day. With only 12kgs though you could have just swung your water bottle or something for 100 reps and you'd still be sore the next day.
If you have 12kgs max then you're probably not going to get much from them that dumbells wouldn't give. The whole idea of them is that they give that offset weight for swinging and moving in different ways but there's not a whole lot of benefit to them.
WHOA! Hold on did you mean a set UP TO 12kgs????? There are lighter ones! Let me guess, are they multicoloured and covered in foam I'm not all "grrr everything should be heavy and manly" but really the whole point of the bells isn't as a direct replacement for dumbells, but as a tool for strength training.
It's funny though when people see kettlebells they do their 50 reps or 100 reps but they wouldn't dream of doing 100 bodyweight squats in a workout. Not saying that's you by the way, just in general.0 -
doing 100 is just painful, without any real gain other than a bit of endurance and a lot of crying when you sit on the crapper the next day. l.
*Chuckles*
I was of the opinion that doms are a good thing. Not whilst youre suffering from them
but a sign, if nothing else, that you did a good bit of work.
Is that not the case?0 -
Canis Lupus wrote: »*Chuckles*
I was of the opinion that doms are a good thing. Not whilst youre suffering from them but a sign, if nothing else, that you did a good bit of work.
Is that not the case?
Same question from me, please! 0 -
Ah you're talking about kettlebell swings then? doing 100 is just painful, without any real gain other than a bit of endurance and a lot of crying when you sit on the crapper the next day. With only 12kgs though you could have just swung your water bottle or something for 100 reps and you'd still be sore the next day.
If you have 12kgs max then you're probably not going to get much from them that dumbells wouldn't give. The whole idea of them is that they give that offset weight for swinging and moving in different ways but there's not a whole lot of benefit to them.
WHOA! Hold on did you mean a set UP TO 12kgs????? There are lighter ones! Let me guess, are they multicoloured and covered in foam I'm not all "grrr everything should be heavy and manly" but really the whole point of the bells isn't as a direct replacement for dumbells, but as a tool for strength training.
It's funny though when people see kettlebells they do their 50 reps or 100 reps but they wouldn't dream of doing 100 bodyweight squats in a workout. Not saying that's you by the way, just in general.
Eh, if you dont see the benefit from doing 100 swings then you are obviously not doing them right. Even with 12kgs if you are doing 100 swings full tilt, without any problems other than a sore bum the next morning, you should think about competing.
As for his gym having a set of kbells only up to 12, i think thats brilliant, first of all ive never heard of any other (im assuming commercial) gym with kbells, secondly i doubt the gym has anyone qualified to teach so noone will have a clue what to do with them, if they had a bunch of 2pood bells, there would be a huge amount of injuires.
As far as I am aware DOMS are just lactic acid buildup, but i remember reading that the jury is still out on that as lactic acid should flush away a lot sooner that that. Either way, they are by no means an indication of how good your workout was, thats a silly assumption.0 -
Canis Lupus wrote: »*Chuckles*
I was of the opinion that doms are a good thing. Not whilst youre suffering from them but a sign, if nothing else, that you did a good bit of work.
Is that not the case?
Well since two of you askedWHIP IT! wrote:Same question from me, please!
It's not that DOMS isn't a good indication of a hard workout, just that the 100 swings or whatever is not going to be be a good workout for most people's goals. Endurance, yes but there are better ways of building that, as regards strength gains, minimal and again there are better ways, fat loss I couldn't say but I'd imagine relatively low as compared to other methods.
I'm sitting on my ass right now but I could give myself DOMS tomorrow by picking up my laptop and pressing it over my head with one arm 100 times but that doesn't make it a good workout.
I didn't say it wasn't easy, just that things that make you sore aren't neccessarily the best route to take.Chris89 wrote:Eh, if you dont see the benefit from doing 100 swings then you are obviously not doing them right. Even with 12kgs if you are doing 100 swings full tilt, without any problems other than a sore bum the next morning, you should think about competing.
Now I'm no mathematician but I reckon: Average gym goer + 12kgs(or 10kgs or 5kgs or 1kg) kettlebell - qualified instructor + explosive motion repeated 100 times = injury at worst, soreness at best.
But hey I'm sure you know that since you know thatEither way, they are by no means an indication of how good your workout was0 -
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12kgs isn't going to do much for you. Is that the heaviest in the gym?
The lightest most people use for strength training is 16kgs.
Is it fair to assume you only see KB's as a tool for strength training from that statement?
Or did you think it was inferred from WHIP IT!'s other exercises choices that strength gains is what he's after?I just wanted to try em out and thought this would be a decent aerobic and all-over workout...
Looks like he was going for an all over workout...With only 12kgs though you could have just swung your water bottle or something for 100 reps and you'd still be sore the next day.
Seriously?It's funny though when people see kettlebells they do their 50 reps or 100 reps but they wouldn't dream of doing 100 bodyweight squats in a workout. Not saying that's you by the way, just in general.
Clarify something, is it high reps as a conditioning tool you have an issue with, or high reps AND kettlebells??It's not that DOMS isn't a good indication of a hard workout, just that the 100 swings or whatever is not going to be be a good workout for most people's goals. Endurance, yes but there are better ways of building that, as regards strength gains, minimal and again there are better ways, fat loss I couldn't say but I'd imagine relatively low as compared to other methods.
And as stated by the OP, what about swings being used as a general workout tool for a quick overall workout, in conjunction with other methods of training??
As for the fat loss aspect, unless they brought out some new low kcal edible KB's, there's definitely more efficient methods.I'm sitting on my ass right now but I could give myself DOMS tomorrow by picking up my laptop and pressing it over my head with one arm 100 times but that doesn't make it a good workout.
Bit of a straw man argument tbh.Now I'm no mathematician but I reckon: Average gym goer + 12kgs(or 10kgs or 5kgs or 1kg) kettlebell - qualified instructor + explosive motion repeated 100 times = injury at worst, soreness at best.
But hey I'm sure you know that since you know that
The fact it's a low load (as you pointed out) would suggest that a violently explosive motion isn't all that neccessary. It's not like he's going for a 1rm with KB. Any prolonged swinging sessions that I've seen have been quite smooth and controlled, not very snappy.The swing if you do it right is still a pretty jerky exercise that I wouldn't reccomend to anyone beyond kettlebell competitors. They have to do it the rest of us have a choice and personally I choose walking straight up when I'm 50. Like any powerful motion, I wouldn't have anyone do more than 8 reps or so in a set.
Do you know many ex-kettlebell competitors?To put it another way, would you have someone who walked into the gym do the same motion without a weight 100 times? Stand there, bend down, snap your hips up straight, repeat 100 times? I wouldn't, It'd be pretty useless at best.
Another straw man argument.
Nowhere has anyone said that the OP was using an agressive snap of the hips to get the KB up.My feathers remain unruffled, I just have a new year's resolution to not spend too much time on people who try to get a rise out of me on the interweb.
Just trying to spend time online getting a rise out of others yeah?You didn't know what I was on about in my previous post so you obviously don't know the very basics, then you attempted to be condescending in your response, which makes me think you'll be unlikely to want to hear what I have to say anyway.
If anyone else has a question though, fire away.
How would you respond to the above points?0 -
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What argument? I asked a simple question from one of those whose opinion I value*. I even included an addendum in case someone misread the tone of my question. :rolleyes:I've seen this method of arguing used before.... I don't like it.
I'll repeat ... ahem, would 200 kettlebell swings be less effective, and/or more harmful than jogging? Seriously? It's less impacting, equally repetitive, and from Whip It's account, not easy to complete.
*BTW, you're one of those
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What argument?
Straw man arguments and the use of hyperbole that only vaguely relates to the topic at hand as a method of reducing the opposing persons position to something that seems so ridiculous no further discussion should be neccessary.
It was a general comment, not directed at you!0 -
Fair enough, but say someone chose to forego watching Fair City in favour of swinging a kettlebell for half an hour a night, surely they'd be better off. Hell, they could even do it while watching Fair City. How can it be a 'negative' exercise, is my point?It was a general comment, not directed at you!
I'm not saying it's the most ideal way to exercise (and in a way, yourself and Roper are probably least qualified to comment - because you guys are very commited to your training, and would never consider quick, cheap ways to work out). But is it really any worse than the guy that jogs for half an hour a night and leaves it at that, thinking he's the sh!t?
(I may be dragging this OT, and if so, my apologies) 0 -
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Fair enough, but say someone chose to forego watching Fair City in favour of swinging a kettlebell for half an hour a night, surely they'd be better off. Hell, they could even do it while watching Fair City. How can it be a 'negative' exercise, is my point?
Cos it breaks your hips.... duh.
Haha seriously, I don't know either. Maybe Roper will tell us.I'm not saying it's the most ideal way to exercise (and in a way, yourself and Roper are probably least qualified to comment - because you guys are very commited to your training, and would never consider quick, cheap ways to work out). But is it really any worse than the guy that jogs for half an hour a night and leaves it at that, thinking he's the sh!t?
(I may be dragging this OT, and if so, my apologies)
Again, I dunno.... I don't have much time for joggers anyway, so I won't comment!0 -
Gee, look what I've started...
I wanna put Hanley, Roper, DaveyJose and Chris in a dark room. Slap each one in the face then leggit and turn the lights back on!
Now that's entertainment...
Anyway, you B*stards have ruined kettlebell swinging on me, forever!! :pac: 0 -
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Anyway, you B*stards have ruined kettlebell swinging on me, forever!! :pac:
No WAY dude, I'm all for swinging kettlebells forever. I'm gonna ditch the couch and leave a few kettlebells in place, so when people call up they can swing their way through a few episodes of 24. Jack Bauer will have nothing on us
Seriously though, I'm with you on this. Exercising in place of not-exercising ... I'm all for it.0 -
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No that was a throwaway comment. My opinions on the use of kettlebells is simple- great tool when used properly.Is it fair to assume you only see KB's as a tool for strength training from that statement?
Or did you think it was inferred from WHIP IT!'s other exercises choices that strength gains is what he's after?
Looks like he was going for an all over workout...
No, not really.Seriously?
I have a problem with neither. Conditioning for what anyway? High reps and kettlebells are great competition training for high rep kettlebell training I'd say. What other sport, daily activity or anything would require me to do 100 consecutive reps with a weight swinging between my legs? (insert dirty joke here)Clarify something, is it high reps as a conditioning tool you have an issue with, or high reps AND kettlebells??
Yeah great. See below.And as stated by the OP, what about swings being used as a general workout tool for a quick overall workout, in conjunction with other methods of training??
Trying to eat an iron kettlebell would probably make you lose some weight.As for the fat loss aspect, unless they brought out some new low kcal edible KB's, there's definitely more efficient methods.
I don't think so. My point in it's original context was that you can give yourself DOMS in many ways, not all of them big or clever.Bit of a straw man argument tbh.
It boils down to this. Lets suppose for a moment that a violently explosive motion ISN'T required to swing 12kgs. If I give you 100 to do I guarantee as fatigue sets in, form will deteriorate. It's not people's hips I'd be concerned about, it would be their lower back. Now after x amount of reps, the motion that was previously smooth is bound to become less so as a greater drive is required at the start of the motion to get the weight moving again. That will be your jerk, now do that little jerk with a slight misalignment of the spine 100 more times and what you have is injury. I use kettlebells as part of training that I do. Pick up the bell, do 10 reps, on to pull ups, or 3 sets of 10 or 20 even.The fact it's a low load (as you pointed out) would suggest that a violently explosive motion isn't all that neccessary. It's not like he's going for a 1rm with KB. Any prolonged swinging sessions that I've seen have been quite smooth and controlled, not very snappy.
Well there's Boris, Igor, Vladimir... no actually I'm just going through Russian names there. I do know enough about physiology to know bad practise when I see it though. Not much, but enough.Do you know many ex-kettlebell competitors?
You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.Another straw man argument.
See above regarding deterioration of form. But my point was that why would you have anyone do a motion weighted if you wouldn't have them do the same motion unweighted. Then add in some massive amount of reps... are you seeing the lack of logic here?Nowhere has anyone said that the OP was using an agressive snap of the hips to get the KB up.
Nah, just waiting on some Indians. That's not a joke by the way I am actually just waiting on some Indians... so I have some time.Just trying to spend time online getting a rise out of others yeah?
Well there's a massive difference between doing a motion you've been doing since you stopped walking and swinging a weight between your legs. (insert dirty joke here) Not that running loads on the roads is all that clever either.I forgot wrote:Roper, do you think it's any worse than jogging? Pounding your ankles, knees, hips, a couple of thousand times a week off a pavement is surely no better than a few hundred kettle bell swings?
Not to jump on the "your talking b0llox" bandwagon, but i'm genuinely curious to see how you think it compares.
I'll put it better. If I had someone walk in now and ask me to get them fit or strong or whatever, would I do:
1) get them to pick up a 2 or 5kg kettlebell and have them do 200 swings
or
2) Bring them out on the road and have them do 5k
The answer is I'd have them do neither. I'd do an assessment on them and before I did anything exercise that required weight I'd have them do weeks or days or months or years of unweighted work until they were ready to involve a weight in that motion. And when that was done unless I had some kind of retarded death wish for them, or I thought he and I were going to be running for the same bus seat the next day, I would never have them do a motion involving their lower back 200 times.
No no no, you misunderstand me. Swing away. Do it smart, as part of a programme and with good form and don't do what some guys on a blog are doing and you'll have a whale of a time. Why are you training? Fitness weight loss etc?WHIP IT! wrote:Anyway, you B*stards have ruined kettlebell swinging on me, forever!!
Ah yeah great and all, I agree, your worst day in the gym is better than you best day on the zzzzzzzzz.... sorry conked out. Look I'm not getting at you and of course, I agree, exercise is good, and better than the TV. But one of the reasons that fat people stay fat and skinny people stay skinny in spite of gym programme after gym programme is because they get pissed off at the lack of results from doing dumb ass training with no logic, no idea what they want and no guidance on how to get there. Gym's respond by just sticking in more equipment so people can wander aimlessly and do a few more reps on the new station or the new piece of equipment like the Power Plate, or the Kettlebells, or the Eliptical trainer or whatever. Show me the guys and gals in the best shape in your gym and I guarantee they do very, very basic things as the core of their programme.Seriously though, I'm with you on this. Exercising in place of not-exercising ... I'm all for it.0 -
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I'd not heard of kettlebells until I did a few seminars with Mick Coup. He rated them highly and showed us a few exercises with them. Luckily David Lewis of Kapap.ie had lots of bells so we all got a go
Mick doesn't much like how the kettlebell competitors train either, he likes a short sharp shock of basic moves combined with the unbalancing effect of the bells. Reps are short or max. over 30 seconds. Saves on fatigue wrecking technique!
Makes you blow like an inside out Dyson, and doing core stability work in between sets hurts my inside belly!
I do think the bells have a place in training, especially martial arts where you train to move unwieldy weight at less than optimal angles, they don't call it body weight or dead weight for nothing!
Move yourself around the bell, nothing worse than smashing the wrists off yourself trying to press overhead! Don't flip the bell over, orbit your hand around the outside diameter of the bell! Sounds worse than it is and can be shown very quickly!
I can see where Roper is coming from, ha makes some good points! Do you like the Crossfit type training protocols Roper lad? The only problem I've had with Crossfit "apart from not being fit" is that I've no formal instruction in Olympic lifting. Same for bells, lack of available formal coaching can wreck you. Even after rereading "Starting Strength" a lot, I dunno if I'm squatting or Deadlifting properly?
Having a good coach on hand to spot your mistakes is worth anything!
Keep up the good work lads, hope to meet some more of the forum this year!0
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