Okay explain...Vegetarianism?

meglome

Right I'm not a vegetarian and I have no intentions of becoming one but I'm curious about what it is to be a vegetarian. I'm curious as I was talking to a vegetarian friend of mine the other week about it. I assumed that she wouldn't eat certain products as they contain things made directly from animals but she didn't have a problem with that which surprised me. So basically she doesn't eat meat but doesn't seem to take it any further than that. Is that what being a vegetarian is?

Fighting Irish

Its really a bit like religion

Thats all i'm saying

Oryx

Some people dont eat meat, but eat fish, and still call themselves veggie.
Some veggies dont eat meat or fish, but eat cheese milk and eggs.
Some dont eat any animal derived products (they're vegan)
Some vegetarians wont wear leather, some do. Depending on who you talk to the term vegetarian covers different things. For some all of the above deserve the term, others look on it more strictly. Personally the term means not eating anything 'with a face'. I have friends who wont eat jaffa cakes if they have animal fats. Im not that strict, but lots are.

Some dont eat meat cos they dont like the taste. Some have issues over eating an animal, but not with their products ie shoes. Some have stronger feelings over consuming animals or using animal derived things. It really is a wide area.

Oryx

Ronanc1 wrote: »

vegetarians bunch of irritating stuck up know it alls that try and shove their tired philosophy down your throat - well at least the ones i know

I doubt you know many, then.

meglome

Oryx wrote: »

Some people dont eat meat, but eat fish, and still call themselves veggie.
Some veggies dont eat meat or fish, but eat cheese milk and eggs.
Some dont eat any animal derived products (they're vegan)
Some vegetarians wont wear leather, some do. Depending on who you talk to the term vegetarian covers different things. For some all of the above deserve the term, others look on it more strictly. Personally the term means not eating anything 'with a face'. I have friends who wont eat jaffa cakes if they have animal fats. Im not that strict, but lots are.

Some dont eat meat cos they dont like the taste. Some have issues over eating an animal, but not with their products ie shoes. Some have stronger feelings over consuming animals or using animal derived things. It really is a wide area.

Very wide obviously. I don't get calling yourself a vegetarian but basically still consuming animals albeit in a different packet/form.

KatCookie

Ronanc1 wrote: »

vegetarians bunch of irritating stuck up know it alls that try and shove their tired philosophy down your throat - well at least the ones i know

posting a comment like that in this sections could end in tears! Like Oryx said, there are 100's different reasons for people becoming veggie, and then there are different "sections of them, quoting Oryx's comment again.
and it IS like religion, i knew a vegan(or something, i cant remember) who would give out to you any time you ate a sandwich with ham in it, but she would also give out to a veggie who was drinking milk!! bit like religious wars in a way because her eating habits would inevitably come up and there'd be war about it!

Oryx

meglome wrote: »

Very wide obviously. I don't get calling yourself a vegetarian but basically still consuming animals albeit in a different packet/form.

You can take that to extremes too, say then, dont eat packets with animal fats.... then why wear leather shoes... then why eat eggs... Vegetarianism is simply a wide term that covers all attitudes from not eating meat to strict vegan.

Another consideration is the sheer difficulty being strict creates. Its damn awkward checking every ingredient list and menu.

brianthebard

Hi Oryx, perhaps you can tell us some background information about modern western vegetarianism, that might explain why there is such a wide variation? Was it just a reaction to the large amounts of meat consumed by the Victorian upper/middle classes, or where do you think it came from and what was the impetus?

Ronanc1

i know 4 vegetarians and they all take after one in particular as i mentioned and i am in a bit of a pissy mood with her at the mo but seriously i do think highly of most vegetarians

Oryx

brianthebard wrote: »

Hi Oryx, perhaps you can tell us some background information about modern western vegetarianism?

Eh. No.

Its not a religious, historical or political thing. I just dont eat meat.

Fighting Irish

I suppose maybe some people just don't eat certain meats etc so they like to call themselves veggies

brianthebard

Oryx wrote: »

Eh. No.

Its not a religious, historical or political thing. I just dont eat meat.

I didn't mean you read about it in the history books and decided it was cool. I was hoping you might know some background to Vegetarianism as a whole and could provide some info for the op. Viewing it in a vaccuum of random people who eat random things and randomly call themselves vegetarian makes it look like there is no meaning behind it.

kraggy

brianthebard wrote: »

Hi Oryx, perhaps you can tell us some background information about modern western vegetarianism, that might explain why there is such a wide variation? Was it just a reaction to the large amounts of meat consumed by the Victorian upper/middle classes, or where do you think it came from and what was the impetus?

I think myself that society has evolved in such a way that more open-minded thinking has become not only possible but also encouraged, mostly as the result of education. Therefore, people have come to think more deeply, philosophically and morally as time has ticked on.

Personally, it was a very simple experience. I saw a few documentaries that opened my eyes and after some thought, I realised that I didn't need to eat meat to survive. In fact, I could not only survive just as well but could actually eat healthier than if I ate meat. But the health benefit realisation came second after my initial moral decision.

Furthermore, I don't think that we shouldn't eat meat because we don't have to do so to survive. I think we shouldn't eat meat period. I think it's immoral and unnecessary. But that's my personal belief and contrary to the vegetarians that Ronanc1 above claims to know, I don't shove those beliefs down the throat of friends or strangers.

meglome

brianthebard wrote: »

I didn't mean you read about it in the history books and decided it was cool. I was hoping you might know some background to Vegetarianism as a whole and could provide some info for the op. Viewing it in a vaccuum of random people who eat random things and randomly call themselves vegetarian makes it look like there is no meaning behind it.

Yup that's it really.

Even though I know quite a few vegetarians I'm surprised that people say they are vegetarians, and even though they may not put meat directly in their mouths, usually on the basis of animal welfare etc, they are quite happy to ignore that same animal welfare in many other food stuffs and clothing.

Tar.Aldarion

I've never met one that does that. Usually poeple try to learn what they can't eat as they go along.

If I am eating something that is not vegetarian unwittingly, people better tell me. I tell others, if I know them well and they want to be told. Guinness is a common one, people don't drink that after I tell them but never questioned it beforehand. Some might still do, people have their vices. Theya re already trying to live the best they can, so I would not like to see them judged by others. The aforementioned in the other posts are not vegetarian, but claim to be. Even people that eat chicken and fish claim it, don't know why.


I am vegetarian because the father of numbers was, all hail him!

Storm_rages

VEGETARIAN:
Vegetarian is a blanket term used to describe a person who does not consume meat, poultry, fish, or seafood. (thats Me!!!)
This grouping includes vegans and the various sub- categories of vegetarian; however, it generally implies someone who has less dietary restrictions than a vegan.

SEMI-VEGETARIAN:
The term semi-vegetarian is usually used to describe someone who is a vegetarian who consumes dairy products, eggs, chicken, and fish, but does not consume other animal flesh.

OVO-LACTO-VEGETARIAN:
Ovo-lacto vegetarians are vegetarians who do not consume meat, poultry, fish, and seafood, but do consume eggs and milk. This is the largest group of vegetarians.

OVO-VEGETARIAN:
Ovo-vegetarian is a term used to describe someone who would be a vegan if they did not consume eggs.

LACTO-VEGETARIAN:
Lacto-vegetarian is a term used to describe someone who would be a vegan if they did not consume milk.

VEGAN:
Vegan is the strictest sub-category of vegetarians. Vegans do not consume any animal products or by-products. Some go as far as not even consuming honey and yeast. Others do not wear any clothing made from animal products.

meglome

Storm_rages wrote: »

VEGETARIAN:
Vegetarian is a blanket term used to describe a person who does not consume meat, poultry, fish, or seafood. (thats Me!!!)
This grouping includes vegans and the various sub- categories of vegetarian; however, it generally implies someone who has less dietary restrictions than a vegan.

But what about all the 'vegetarians' that still happily consume many a product that contains things made directly from animals or clothing made from leather etc. Some will just say it's a taste issue but most (I believe) would say it's all about the animals and their welfare, and yet in my opinion they are still consuming animals even if they don't directly put a piece of meat in their mouth. Opinions?

Storm_rages

I think there are levels of Vegetarianism, which goes from "i eat chicken and fish" to i don't eat anything which casts a shadow.

It is like religion (without the god issues).. Most people do the best the can, and you will always get the smart asses who will say something like "oh your not a real catholic cause you don't go to mass every Sunday" You do your best. And at the end of the day its a personal choice.

meglome

Storm_rages wrote: »

I think there are levels of Vegetarianism, which goes from "i eat chicken and fish" to i don't eat anything which casts a shadow.

It is like religion (without the god issues).. Most people do the best the can, and you will always get the smart asses who will say something like "oh your not a real catholic cause you don't go to mass every Sunday" You do your best. And at the end of the day its a personal choice.

I'm not buying it sorry. This is a living creature that's dying here for food or clothing, I personally don't have an issue with that (within certain strict rules) but if you're really a vegetarian then that shouldn't be okay.

Gauge

Vegatarianism isn't black and white, there are varying degrees of dedication. Not everyone has the same views, beliefs, and reasons for what they do. It's not 'all or nothing' unless the individual says they want it to be that way.

Might as well say that once a Christian has committed a sin, or just done something that isn't in accordance with the church, that they can no longer consider themselves Christian. It's a very flawed view.

Storm_rages

Oh dear god Gauge!! i'm doomed!!! (a bad vegetarian and a terrible christen!!)

But seriously, i think (and this is only my understanding) vegetarians can indeed wear leather..if they chose to and eat milk and eggs.. and still call themselves vegetarian. As for eating animal products i'm pretty sure you may be thinking about vegans meglome.

meglome

Storm_rages wrote: »

Oh dear god Gauge!! i'm doomed!!! (a bad vegetarian and a terrible christen!!)

But seriously, i think (and this is only my understanding) vegetarians can indeed wear leather..if they chose to and eat milk and eggs.. and still call themselves vegetarian. As for eating animal products i'm pretty sure you may be thinking about vegans meglome.

I don't see any moral issue with consuming milk, eggs etc. But animals are dying for those nice new shoes or that nice milk shake or whatever. So unless you dislike the taste of meat then what's the point of being a vegetarian but only when it suits. You're only kidding yourself imho.

Storm_rages

I'm not sure how you make milkshakes..but i'm pretty sure no animals die for the ones i have..milk, ice-cream, strawberry...(licking lips... thinking about it now)

But i think the issue is if you can call yourselves a vegetarian and still eat products made by animal by products and/or clothing made from animal. My personal believe is you can call yourself any think you like, its for other people to have a problem with it.


But the term vegetarian does actually (according to google) "Vegetarian is a blanket term used to describe a person who does not consume meat, poultry, fish, or seafood" so it makes no mention of wearing clothing, or by products.."

Tar.Aldarion

Yes that's just one randome definition though. There are plenty to go by. If you eat anything with animal in it, you are not a vegetarian, you eat animal products. The clothes thing is more iffy as vegetarianism can be seen as just your diet.

brianthebard

Storm_rages wrote: »

I'm not sure how you make milkshakes..but i'm pretty sure no animals die for the ones i have..milk, ice-cream,

Well, again it comes down to how far you want to go....Veal calves are male fresians that are useless to milk production (obviously) so as a way of making them profitable they are used for Veal, or sometimes disposed of in an even less nice fashion. This may not be the case always, I'm not sure how it works in Ireland. But this is just an example of how far you want to extend the line of production. I mean I've no problem with you having milkshakes, but vegans might turn their noses up at it for the reasons I've just stated, or for other reasons involving the treatment of the milk bearing cattle.

meglome

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yes that's just one randome definition though. There are plenty to go by. If you eat anything with animal in it, you are not a vegetarian, you eat animal products. The clothes thing is more iffy as vegetarianism can be seen as just your diet.

That's what I'm thinking at this point.

rockbeer

Once again we're back to the old chestnut of people needing to label themselves and each other.

There are all sorts of definitions of vegetarianism, and all sorts of historical and cultural reasons why, for example, fish is often regarded as OK in the context of a vegetarian diet. (I'm not saying whether it is or not, just pointing out that this is the reality.) Equally there is virtually no vegetarian that couldn't have the finger pointed at the them for some inconsistency or other.

Then there are all the varied reasons why people don't eat meat - health, animal rights, farming, religion...

I don't understand this restless need for perfection. In practical terms is there that much difference between somebody who eats no meat but wears leather shoes and someone who is basically vegan but eats a piece of fish a few times a year? Everyone is doing what they can: why not support that, and leave people alone to make their own choices?

This is why I think you're better applying the 'vegetarian' label to food than people.

meglome

Personally I'm not labelling anyone but I think calling yourself vegetarian but then happily ignoring that many products you eat contain meat by-products is bull****. Seriously you just may as well eat meat sometimes and be done with your supposed moral high ground.

Gauge

And how does describing one's self as vegetarian have anything to do with 'moral high ground'?

I think you may be projecting here.

meglome

Gauge wrote: »

And how does describing one's self as vegetarian have anything to do with 'moral high ground'?

I think you may be projecting here.

Well it's the way it's been put over to me, as a moral issue.

Storm_rages

well i can only speak for my self and say its a choice not a moral issue..

meglome

Storm_rages wrote: »

well i can only speak for my self and say its a choice not a moral issue..

Then why call yourself a vegetarian or what's the point of being a vegetarian? Sorry but I think you're just lying to yourself.

Whispered

Meglome

"okay explain - eating animals?"

I would like to ask, why do you eat meat. And something a bit more meaningful than "because it tastes good" would be good.

rockbeer

meglome wrote: »

what's the point of being a vegetarian?

Ask a sheep.

meglome

helena.ryan wrote: »

Meglome

"okay explain - eating animals?"

I would like to ask, why do you eat meat. And something a bit more meaningful than "because it tastes good" would be good.

I was directing my last comment at that particular poster. But...

It does taste good although I'm not a huge eater of meat at all. I've been to India and the vegetarianism there seems very natural but I often think in the west it's very forced. In that some people who have had issues with food growing up then morph that into vegetarianism as they grow older. And as for eating animals I didn't create the food chain, that happened a wee bit before my time. But isn't it great that us middle class people can make the choice.

meglome

rockbeer wrote: »

Ask a sheep.

I was directing that at that particular poster. I think if you don't eat meat but happily ignore all the other things you eat that have animal derived products in them, you shouldn't call yourself a vegetarian. If you do that it's just a con job to yourself and everyone else.

Oryx

meglome wrote: »

I was directing that at that particular poster. I think if you don't eat meat but happily ignore all the other things you eat that have animal derived products in them, you shouldn't call yourself a vegetarian. If you do that it's just a con job to yourself and everyone else.

Only if you look on vegetarianism as a moral stance and only if you look at it in rigidly defined terms. It depends therefore on your reasoning behind it. Your pov seems to be that unless you are vegan, wear hessian shoes and are a member of greenpeace, you dont deserve the term veggie. Thats like saying if I miss communion on Sunday I can no longer call myself a catholic. An overzealously strict viewpoint, imo.

meglome

Oryx wrote: »

Only if you look on vegetarianism as a moral stance and only if you look at it in rigidly defined terms. It depends therefore on your reasoning behind it. Your pov seems to be that unless you are vegan, wear hessian shoes and are a member of greenpeace, you dont deserve the term veggie. Thats like saying if I miss communion on Sunday I can no longer call myself a catholic. An overzealously strict viewpoint, imo.

No I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is there are many many 'vegetarians' out there who won't eat a piece of meat under any circumstances. But knowingly, maybe every day, will eat products with animal derived ingredients in them (I'm only considering eating, not about clothing etc.). Most vegetarians I've met will say it's wrong to eat animals, I haven't personally met one for whom it was just a taste issue. So it seems to me they are not 'doing the best they can', they know full well they are not doing the best they can and yet go on calling themselves vegetarians. It's an utter cop out.

Whispered

So you're reason for eating meat is because it tastes good, and because the food chain has been around longer than you?

In the west it would seem more "forced" mainly because it's not as common here as in india.

meglome wrote: »

But isn't it great that us middle class people can make the choice.

:rolleyes: yes because only middle class people can afford to be veggie - are they all middle class in india? My shopping bill has gone down by almost 25% since my OH stopped eating meat in the house.

meglome wrote: »

I think if you don't eat meat but happily ignore all the other things you eat that have animal derived products in them, you shouldn't call yourself a vegetarian. If you do that it's just a con job to yourself and everyone else.

I would be of the opinion that vegetarians dont eat anything with animals bodies in them, or anything an animal died to produce - like chicken eggs, fine, the chicken did not have to die to give them. Caviaer (sp?) not fine, as far as I know the fish is killed (could be wrong). That colouring conchiel or something, I don't eat, jellys also wont eat unless it is said to be suitable for vegetarians. Most vegtarians are the same. I have a friend who tried to persuade me she was vegetarian even though she eats tuna. When I said vegetarians dont eat fish she tried to persuade me it was ok because... IT COMES FROM A CAN :rolleyes:

If you are talking about animal products like milk etc, you are refering to vegans, which is a different thing.

Tar.Aldarion

Well somebody that knowingly eats meat in anything, not trying to curb their eating of it, is not a vegetarian to me. People can call themselves whatever they want though. If you don't eat meat you can call yourself the king of England for all I care. In what does it matter? The only annoying thing is when people try to serve you fish or prawns because you are vegetarian. It's merely a small inconvenience sometimes. Nothing that matters.

It just depends on the definition, can people that eat butter and eggs be vegetarian, those that drink milk? What happens to theses animals when they stop producing?
How about if there was animal used in the manufacture of the item but none is in the product, like guinness? What if the foodstuff is a plant but an animal was killed in production?

Then why call yourself a vegetarian or what's the point of being a vegetarian? Sorry but I think you're just lying to yourself.

Well for somebody that does not consider it a moral issue, it could be a health or environmental one etc.

sweet-rasmus

Storm_rages wrote: »

VEGETARIAN:

SEMI-VEGETARIAN:
The term semi-vegetarian is usually used to describe someone who is a vegetarian who consumes dairy products, eggs, chicken, and fish, but does not consume other animal flesh.

More like pescitarian.
I don't think anyone should use the term "semi-vegetarian" cause it's far too broad...

Storm_rages

meglome wrote: »

Then why call yourself a vegetarian or what's the point of being a vegetarian? Sorry but I think you're just lying to yourself.

Oxford dictionary....


vegetarian

• noun a person who does not eat meat for moral, religious, or health reasons.

Storm_rages

meglome wrote: »

Then why call yourself a vegetarian or what's the point of being a vegetarian? Sorry but I think you're just lying to yourself.

Oh and why i don't eat meat, is because i chose not too. But i guess it would a different reason for every vegetarian...