Good drills: the officer safety thread

metman

From time to time I come across stuff, both through work and online that might be of interest to colleagues elsewhere re officer safety issues and low and behold I've put together a thread for serving officers to post info (obviously public domain only stuff) that colleagues might appreciate.

To kick off (literally) this vid has been floating around here for a while and is being used as a reminder of how important a thorough search is (as well as how lightning quick custody sergeants can be when their tea and biccies are possibly at risk). Not sure if its crossed the water as yet.

One to bear in mind for all operational officers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic

djtechnics1210

I heard a definite cracking noise during one of the restraints... think he mite have broken something.. oops. Fair play to all the officers concerned though very quick reactions

donvito99

Why did they carry out the search in the police station, in a very confined space? When they arrested him, wouldd they not have carried out the search there.

Eru

Don,
People would not appreciate the police searching someones trousers on the street. It needs to be done in private and securely.

Fair ****s to the lads, looked like he meant to cause some damage allright. Also reminds me of a story from the Bridewell, lad in for something minor, warrants in existence so hes brought over to court by the arresting member. When the lads over there search him they found a very large knife which the guy fully planned to use once the cuffs came off. Remembering that at that stage it was his third search!

And while were on the subject of searches. Not standard issue but lads, for the sake of 30 or 40 quid, get a pair. These are the ones i use and I see more and more lads buying similar


http://www.opticsplanet.net/hatch-armortip-puncture-protective-gloves-ppg1.html

tallaght01

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Don,
they found a very large knife which the guy fully planned to use once the cuffs came off.

some bloke admitted he was going to use it when the cuffs came off, even though it was always in his pocket??

Eru

tallaght01 wrote: »

some bloke admitted he was going to use it when the cuffs came off, even though it was always in his pocket??

What is it you dont understand?

Holsten

Hope they brought him out for a nice beating.

King Ludvig

Holsten wrote: »

Hope they brought him out for a nice beating.

I douth they did. Fair play to those officers, quick reactions!

Dyr

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Don,

And while were on the subject of searches. Not standard issue but lads, for the sake of 30 or 40 quid, get a pair. These are the ones i use and I see more and more lads buying similar


http://www.opticsplanet.net/hatch-armortip-puncture-protective-gloves-ppg1.html

just out of curiosity why not use the kevlar type gloves instead? do these do the same job?

eroo

Holsten wrote: »

Hope they brought him out for a nice beating.

:rolleyes:

deadwood

Holsten wrote: »

Hope they brought him
out for a nice meal which he enjoyed eating.

Yes. that's what we're all thinking.

Eru

Bambi wrote: »

just out of curiosity why not use the kevlar type gloves instead? do these do the same job?

Kevlar gloves is more for firearms use as far as I am aware and doesnt stop sharps. These have some kevlar in them but are designed with searching in mind and the palm, tips of fingers etc are sharp resistant.

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Kevlar gloves is more for firearms use as far as I am aware and doesnt stop sharps. These have some kevlar in them but are designed with searching in mind and the palm, tips of fingers etc are sharp resistant.

Yeah. But you can't beat the *SNAP!* noise of the ol' latex when you pop a pair on.

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

Yeah. But you can't beat the *SPAP!* noise of the ol' latex when you pop a pair on.

No but they look cool!:cool:

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

No but they look cool!:cool:

Yeah.
You edited before I could quote your "Ooooh" comment!"

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

No but they look cool!:cool:

They look kinda bulky though. What are they like for squeezing into tight pockets?

tallaght01

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

What is it you dont understand?

Well, I was wondering how you knew it he was going to use it on the cops when they uncuffed him.

deadwood

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, I was wondering how you knew it he was going to use it on the cops when they uncuffed him.

He probably hadan onion in his other pocket.
Yeah, back off Karl!:D

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

They look kinda bulky though. What are they like for squeezing into tight pockets?

They are skin tight if you have the right size and they suggest ordering a smaller size rather than a larger one. They are designed for initial searches, pat downs, etc then once your happy theres nothing dangerous there you can do a thorough search.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, I was wondering how you knew it he was going to use it on the cops when they uncuffed him.

Under caution thats what he said. Could have been an act allright but seemed genuine enough

Dyr

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

These have some kevlar in them but are designed with searching in mind and the palm, tips of fingers etc are sharp resistant.

Maybe they're like the ones I'm thinking of so, they have kevlar (its a bit like rough rubber?) palms and fingers. Good for cuts but I dont think they'd stop a thrust :eek:

cushtac

Kevlar is a fibre, it is not rubbery unless coated in something else. Kevlar & similar products will protect against a slash, but not a thrust - any material thick enough to withstand a thrust would use useless in a glove. There's several materials with similar properties to Kevlar that are used in such gloves.

Eru

Kevlar wont protect against any sharp item. Kevlar stops bullets and dead weight force it does not stop knifes. Regardless of being stabbed direct or slashed across kevlar will rip.

Thats why bullet proof vests are not stab proof. (and before anyone says it, the army have BALLISTIC vests)

civdef

Slashproof gloves have aramid (kevlar) fibres in them, think it depends on the weave pattern.

cushtac

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Kevlar wont protect against any sharp item. Kevlar stops bullets and dead weight force it does not stop knifes. Regardless of being stabbed direct or slashed across kevlar will rip.

Kevlar, a brand name for aramid, does protect against sharp objects if spun in the correct fashion. There are plenty of slash & stab resistant gloves on the market, although the higher the level of resistance the thicker the glove.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Thats why bullet proof vests are not stab proof. (and before anyone says it, the army have BALLISTIC vests)

Firstly, nothing is described as either bullet or stab-proof - they're described as resistant. Vests carry a specific rating which shows to what level a vest has been tested, but the abilities of a vest can & do exceed the rating it has been given. Thus a vest with a ballistic rating will offer a level of stab resistance, certainly less than a vest with a dual rating, but a level of resistance nonetheless. If aramid or similar produts are spun tight enough thy will resist edged weapons to the tolerences allowed for in NIJ & PSDB tests.

Eru

cushtac wrote: »

Firstly, nothing is described as either bullet or stab-proof - they're described as resistant.

Ah come on, thats an anal statement to make. People commonly state 'proof' and a simple Google search will show many many items being sold under the tag of 'proof'.

cushtac wrote: »

Kevlar, a brand name for aramid, does protect against sharp objects if spun in the correct fashion. There are plenty of slash & stab resistant gloves on the market, although the higher the level of resistance the thicker the glove.

Some resistence true enough but then again, so will a good few layers of clothing. The gloves use kevlar but in Hatches case theres a seperate item on the fingertips and palm to offer genuine resistence for the most prone areas when searching.

Kevlar based vests do not carry any stab rating (not NIJ 1,2,3 or 4) as the textile used is designed for blunt force. Knifes and sharp implements will cut or stab through it just like it will with any textile. The vests on issue to the MET and AGS now are both stab and bullet resistent however earlier bullet proof vests were not knife proof.

While there are many types out there they can be broken down to 3 basic types.

Bullet proof, usually kevlar only and designed to stop smaller round bullets.

Knife proof, stops sharp oblects and small round fire

Ballistic vests are essentially knife proof with hard inserts (made from various sources).

Now, I also understand with advances in science and vests its somewhat rare to find a bullet only vest (whats the point?) so therefore what people refer to as 'bullet proof' are in fact stab vests / duel vests or full on ballistic vests but the original 'bullet proof' vest used prior to general issue offered little or no resistence and certainly nothing the manufacturer either tested for or would stand over.

Not the greatest link to back me up and I appreciate this but if you do a google search you get limited results which only speak about duel vests and also a lot of crap (I actually ened up on a zombie survival site at one stage )

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080408135020AAGp87E

This one offers an additional insert to upgrade a bullet proof vest to include knife; "Designed to fit into the plate slot of a bullet proof vest to add knife protection. " (http://www.spycatcheronline.co.uk/antistab-plate-p-187.html)

As an aside, the little pocket on the front of the Garda vest isnt to hold your notebook, its for a ballistic insert for heart protection. Nice of AGS to let us buy our own isnt it? :rolleyes:

cushtac

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ah come on, thats an anal statement to make. People commonly state 'proof' and a simple Google search will show many many items being sold under the tag of 'proof'.

It's not anal, it's the correct term used by the industry and the bodies that give the products the ratings.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Some resistence true enough but then again, so will a good few layers of clothing. The gloves use kevlar but in Hatches case theres a seperate item on the fingertips and palm to offer genuine resistence for the most prone areas when searching.

Hatch offer several cut-resistant gloves, some of which use kevlar throughout. The material put on the fingertips is specifically to protect against puncture by needles.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Kevlar based vests do not carry any stab rating (not NIJ 1,2,3 or 4) as the textile used is designed for blunt force. Knifes and sharp implements will cut or stab through it just like it will with any textile. The vests on issue to the MET and AGS now are both stab and bullet resistent however earlier bullet proof vests were not knife proof.

Certain aramid vests don't carry a stab rating, many others do. As I've said, if aramid is spun properly it can & does meet the requirements for the anti-stab rating.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

While there are many types out there they can be broken down to 3 basic types.

Bullet proof, usually kevlar only and designed to stop smaller round bullets.

Knife proof, stops sharp oblects and small round fire

Ballistic vests are essentially knife proof with hard inserts (made from various sources).

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ballistic and 'bullet-proof' are the same things, and vests can be made from various other materials besides aramid.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Now, I also understand with advances in science and vests its somewhat rare to find a bullet only vest (whats the point?) so therefore what people refer to as 'bullet proof' are in fact stab vests / duel vests or full on ballistic vests but the original 'bullet proof' vest used prior to general issue offered little or no resistence and certainly nothing the manufacturer either tested for or would stand over.

There's plenty of vests out there with a ballistic only rating, they're still popular in the US.

If you're looking for info on the protection levels in use look up the US Dept of Justice's National Institute of Justice or the UK Home Office's Police Scientific Development Branch.

the locust

The little pocket on the front of the Garda vest isnt to hold your notebook, its for a ballistic insert for heart protection??

Why is it in the middle when your heart is to the left side of your chest?

Can you source me where i could find such a tiny ballistic plate?

I thought our vests had anti-stab/puncture AND ballistic properties... They are thin and i wouldn't trust getting shot but aren't they are supposed to defeat .22 and not sure but i heard 9mm and shotgun spray at distance?

djtechnics1210

Stab vests will withstand .22, 9mm and stab, ballistic vest will withstand .22, 9mm and spikes. I have yet yo hear anything about a ballistic plate for the stab vest pocket, i never heard this when being fitted for it and i have yet to hear anyone mention it.

donvito99

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe they're like the ones I'm thinking of so, they have kevlar (its a bit like rough rubber?) palms and fingers. Good for cuts but I dont think they'd stop a thrust :eek:

Those look like the gloves that you use to gut fish.

Eru

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Stab vests will withstand .22, 9mm and stab, ballistic vest will withstand .22, 9mm and spikes. I have yet yo hear anything about a ballistic plate for the stab vest pocket, i never heard this when being fitted for it and i have yet to hear anyone mention it.

I bet they didnt mention that its proof from a 9mm is from distance or that it was not the best or most expensive option either. They generally dont speak badly about the item they are buying for you and companies rarely point out flaws in their own product.

the locust wrote: »

The little pocket on the front of the Garda vest isnt to hold your notebook, its for a ballistic insert for heart protection??

Why is it in the middle when your heart is to the left side of your chest?

Can you source me where i could find such a tiny ballistic plate?

I thought our vests had anti-stab/puncture AND ballistic properties... They are thin and i wouldn't trust getting shot but aren't they are supposed to defeat .22 and not sure but i heard 9mm and shotgun spray at distance?

If its designed for the notebook it should be bigger, they just fit at a squeeze.

Your heart is more or less centre. Maybe a little to the left, Im not a doctor so dont know specifics.

My previous post had a link to a site selling the inserts but the purpose of the inserts is to stop higher power fire. Were highly unlikely to use or need them.

The vests offer protection against the likes of 9mm but again, from a distance. They wont stand over its abilities either by offerinf specifics.

Lets look at this from an easier view for members, compare the old bullet proof vests that are still probable in the station to your vest then head to the army and look at their vests. Not what pockets they have, etc but the actual protection inserts. Or easier still, head to a train station and speak with security, their vests are full ballistic vests. Why in gods name they have better protection than us I think can be guessed.

Theres a lot of vests out there, dont be fooled, ours are not great. I remember we were being issued the old bullet proof vests prior to general issue when on certain duty and we were warned about knife attacks.

cushtac

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I bet they didnt mention that its proof from a 9mm is from distance or that it was not the best or most expensive option either.

The HG1/A rating requires that the vest be able to withstand three rounds fired from a 9mm pistol or a .357" magnum revolver from a minimum distance of 5m. This should also offer protection against buckshot too.

djtechnics1210

The actual official line is that the vest you wear is "supposed" to withstand what you are carrying yourself. members carrying 9mm vests will withstand 9mm and 38, ERU and GFTU vests are much heavier with ceramic inserts for front and back.
This is so because if your firearm is taken off you your vest should protect you from being killed by your own weapon!!!!!! well supposedly anyway

TheNog

cushtac wrote: »

This should also offer protection against buckshot too.

Care to test it?? :pac:

cushtac

TheNog wrote: »

Care to test it?? :pac:

You bring the shotgun, I'll bring the vest & the drink...

djtechnics1210

Ill book the ambulance

donvito99

LOL!

I'll just point and laugh...

djtechnics1210

Then for a real test we could try out some other guns on the same vest!!!!!!!!

donvito99

Why dont you get a few explosives while your at it, see what kind of shrapnell protection it offers...

djtechnics1210

Thats a great idea... wonder what type of ordnance AGS has on issue to members!!!!!!

ScubaDave

They are called patrol cars - highly volatile and likely to explode when you least expect it!

djtechnics1210

ScubaDave wrote: »

They are called patrol cars - highly volatile and likely to explode when you least expect it!

Other ones known are SHO's

Eru

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

The actual official line is that the vest you wear is "supposed" to withstand what you are carrying yourself. members carrying 9mm vests will withstand 9mm and 38, ERU and GFTU vests are much heavier with ceramic inserts for front and back.
This is so because if your firearm is taken off you your vest should protect you from being killed by your own weapon!!!!!! well supposedly anyway

So my vest will only protect me from an ASP????

deadwood

Now, do your worst!

ScubaDave

I didnt get that cover with my vest..... kinda wish i did!

deadwood

BULLET-PROOF VEST RESISTS FIRE OF THREE PISTOLS
To demonstrate the effectiveness of a bullet-proof vest he invented, a New York man donned the garment, posed as the target and allowed three policemen to shoot at him at close range. Repeated fire of thirty-eight and forty-five caliber bullets failed to penetrate the vest. The missiles were flattened against the sides of the protector and fell harmless to the ground. Following this demonstration, young women put on the vests and also served as targets.

eroo

I'm sure that lad's ribcage and internal organs were fine afterwards!:pac:

cushtac

Richard Davis, founder of the Second Chance body armour company, rountinely shot himself at point blank range to demonstrate the reliability of his products:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y44CdrBsfs&eurl=http://reversecowgirl.tumblr.com/post/41032241

Eru

Most probable aware of this but just in case and to show a different type to that shown on the AGS| bulletin:



Designed to fire gas cylinders, these tiny Bulgarian-made weapons can also fire .32 caliber bullets. Once the arming ring is locked, the buttons on top of the device can fire one round from each of its two barrels.

At just one inch wide and three inches long, they are easily concealable and will not set off most airport metal detectors.

Because of their small size and short barrel, the devices have a great deal of recoil, are extremely loud and are not very accurate. They are described by some experts as a "last resort" weapon.

Since the end of the Cold War, these weapons have become readily available in southern Europe for as little as $20, Interpol officials say. The FAA issued a warning in May for airports to be on the lookout for the "keychain guns."
(http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/experience/spies/spy.gadgets/weapons/keychain.guns.html)

metman

Karlito, yeah I've seen that before. I think two of them have been found here in searches. Nasty little blighters.

Something else that we've been advised to be wary of is this item;



Here it is in action. Very dangerous weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa_NC-_fvKs

djtechnics1210

I heard recently about a pen gun being seized over here. apparently they can fire .22 and others can fire 9mm - frightening.

ScubaDave

That knife is scary!