Local Baptist Church Spreading Anti-Evolution Junk Mail

jtsuited

I have just received through my door a DVD, and 2 flyers from a local Baptist Church (River Valley Baptist Church, Leixlip).

1 flyer is an accompaniment to the dvd which says:

Free DVD
Watch this educational Gift
Confronting Evolution

and then goes on to present a nonsensical few paragraphs about how the theory of evolution is 'nothing more than a religious belief', etc.

Another flyer/booklet thing tells me how how I am apparently doing a lot 'Better than I deserve'. In this booklet it tells me how God is doing me a huge favour right now because what I really deserve is hell (and it states that quite literally).

I am infuriated to say the least, firstly by the hilariously propogandist, misleading and indeed offensive material itself but mostly the fact that it has been delivered to my house unsolicited.

On the DVD accompanying flyer, it says 'this DVD is distributed to every third house in your area' (I would imagine that to be one of the more accurate pieces of information in this junk-mail).

Has anyone else got this through their door lately?
Also, is there not some sort of law against mailing material that could be deemed offensive or inflammatory?

Rev Hellfire

The DVD will make an excellent coffee mat for your cup, see there's always a bright side.

Zombrex

jtsuited wrote: »

how I am apparently doing a lot 'Better than I deserve'.

we were all thinking it JT, but it is rude of them to come out and say it

Hivemind187

*sigh*

Things like this make me wish atheists were prone to the same reactionary persecution pogroms as the religions.

Edit: And the christians will probably still say thatthey dont see how they are "forcing religion down our throats".

robindch

jtsuited wrote: »

I am infuriated to say the least, firstly by the hilariously propogandist, misleading and indeed offensive material itself but mostly the fact that it has been delivered to my house unsolicited.

Well, they've invaded your place with their junk -- why not retaliate in turn?

Show up at their place on a Sunday morning, wander in during a service, confront the uneducated pillock who runs the place in front of his flock of loyal sheep?

Lots of room for karma there, I should imagine!

toiletduck

Give the free DVD as a Christmas present to someone you don't like but are obliged to give one. You gotta think smart in this recession :pac:

Galvasean

You should write to them asking for more literature on the subject and more DVDs so you can give them to all your friends (with no intention to do so). That way they will waste more of their money making/distributing this crap.
Financially cripple them I say! Mwhahahahahaha!!!!!!! :pac:

Redbhoy

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

CiaranC

I got one of these. If I have asked the old bitch who keeps putting that rag "Alive" through the door to stop once, I have asked her ten times. I have had to resort to putting gay pornography through her door in return.

Fanny Cradock

They really shouldn't be doing this.

getz

my dog thinks that if there is no such thing as god --who feeds me ?

Dades

Redbhoy wrote: »

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

No one can prove you don't wear ladies underwear at the weekend.

Goduznt Xzst

Redbhoy wrote: »

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

You really shouldn't of said that :rolleyes: I'd field it but theres already a thread over in the Christianity forum that you should spend the next year or so reading.

Back OT, I got some of this baloney off an associate in college before.

The basic story was:

- Life is irreducibly complex, just look at DNA
- Evolution is thus wrong and the work of Satan
- We can conclude from this that the Christian God created DNA and the Universe

To the layman this would be enough to reset their minds back to autopilot. It also preys on the false assumption that evolution is somehow tied to explaining the origins of life.

Zombrex

Redbhoy wrote: »

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

Correct. But then no one can prove anything, gravity, light, atoms, heat, energy etc etc

So it is a bit of a moot point

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

They really shouldn't be doing this.

But then atheists would have no reason to be indignant

jtsuited

Wicknight wrote: »

we were all thinking it JT, but it is rude of them to come out and say it

lol
but seriously folks, is there not a law against this?

Asiaprod

robindch wrote: »

Lots of room for karma there, I should imagine!

, give it back. A message in an of itself.

eoin5

I got one of these too, its pretty bad that a congregations money gets spent on junk like that. They should make at least an equal contribution (over what they might usually give) to a good charity like the childrens hospital up the road for their self indulgent crusade.

Press start

Redbhoy wrote: »

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

Evolution is a scientific theory and creationism is not.

pH

eoin5 wrote: »

I got one of these too, its pretty bad that a congregations money gets spent on junk like that. They should make at least an equal contribution (over what they might usually give) to a good charity like the childrens hospital up the road for their self indulgent crusade.

Probably not the congregation's money, it's well know that the money for all these DVDs comes from the wills of rich Victorian widowers.

On a related note, we atheists are out of luck, but if said DVD arrived in a Jewish, Hindu or Sikh household, would they have a case if there was any implication at all that their religion was wrong. I'd take it that being damned and going to hell meant that their religion was wrong, in this climate of political correctness and multi-culturalism, can you distribute literature claiming (albeit by omission) that other religions are wrong and their adherents damned?

Zillah

I have absolutely no faith in the ability of the Irish people to resist this. Evolution is way too hard to understand for most people, this all sounds far more plausible.

The only thing I suspect may inoculate them is their resistance to the fire and brimstone rhetoric.

AtomicHorror

Redbhoy wrote: »

Evolution is a theory and so is creationism. No one can prove either!

Theory doesn't mean what you think it means, Redbhoy.

lostexpectation

these people don't disbeleive evolution its just a test of loyalty.

AtomicHorror

Zillah wrote: »

Evolution is way too hard to understand for most people, this all sounds far more plausible.

I don't think it is really. There's a lot of reasons why people are hesitant to try to understand science, but evolution is a really simple theory. I think a general lack of interest or even plain laziness are much stronger influences there. And it's not really the public's fault either.

Zillah

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I don't think it is really. There's a lot of reasons why people are hesitant to try to understand science, but evolution is a really simple theory.

You can only say that because you already have access to the massive framework of scientific knowledge that brings it together. A framework I think you're taking for granted. Most people have no concept of the age of the world, life or a given species. Most people can't even conceive of a timescale where a human life is like a single frame in a movie that goes on for years. The average person's grasp of DNA is from CSI and the X-Files. Mutation is a super power that let's you fly or shoot beams from your eyes. Natural Selection is an evil concept that results in an asshole getting the promotion in work. The very idea of concepts such as Evolutionarily Stable Systems, Genetic Drift or Species Propagation is enough to make them giggle awkwardly.

You give the average person far too much credit. Hell, I remember reading a report a couple years ago that showed that a large percentage of Third Level Biology Students didn't properly understand evolution.

condra

Hey Jeff. I didn't know you were a fellow heretic! We seem to have much in common between this, the DJ'ing, insomnia, and general insanity.

When I get spam in the post I sometimes post their **** back to them. I think I would probably react very angrily if I got THAT in my door though.

Do they have an address?

Good luck with the gig tomorrow BTW

AtomicHorror

Zillah wrote: »

You can only say that because you already have access to the massive framework of scientific knowledge that brings it together. A framework I think you're taking for granted. Most people have no concept of the age of the world, life or a given species. Most people can't even conceive of a timescale where a human life is like a single frame in a movie that goes on for years. The average person's grasp of DNA is from CSI and the X-Files. Mutation is a super power that let's you fly or shoot beams from your eyes. Natural Selection is an evil concept that results in an asshole getting the promotion in work. The very idea of concepts such as Evolutionarily Stable Systems, Genetic Drift or Species Propagation is enough to make them giggle awkwardly.

Understanding the basics of evolution doesn't require understanding of anything more than mutation and natural selection. Neither are very tricky concepts. I agree with what you're saying about the framework, but what I'm saying is that it is quite practical for any person to immerse themselves to the degree required to understand the basic. But for whatever reason, be it social prejudice against science as being boring or nerdy, be it the CSI/Heroes take on the core principles, the mainstream media dumbing-down of science into weekly miracles or just the general aloofness of the scientific community, it just doesn't happen.

Zillah wrote: »

You give the average person far too much credit. Hell, I remember reading a report a couple years ago that showed that a large percentage of Third Level Biology Students didn't properly understand evolution.

I'm aware of that. Is this actually reflective of their capacity to understand evolution? I seriously doubt it. I don't think that you're giving the average person enough credit. They're far cleverer than they let on. They just don't care about science unless it's giving them a new version of the iPhone. I reckon that apathy is as much the fault of the scientific community as it is anyone else's.

Hivemind187

robindch wrote: »

Well, they've invaded your place with their junk -- why not retaliate in turn?

Show up at their place on a Sunday morning, wander in during a service, confront the uneducated pillock who runs the place in front of his flock of loyal sheep?

Lots of room for karma there, I should imagine!

Go around to his house in a nice suit, ring the door bell at half six in the morning and ask "Have you heard the bad news?"

AtomicHorror

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Go around to his house in a nice suit, ring the door bell at half six in the morning and ask "Have you heard the bad news?"

Try to force a free copy of The God Delusion on him. If he refuses, leave it in his letter box anyway.

Hivemind187

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Try to force a free copy of The God Delusion on him. If he refuses, leave it in his letter box anyway.

Lol but €16 to annoy 1 christian? There must be a more efficient way than that ...

I have the God Delusion on tape, we could hook it up to 800w loud speakers and play it from 9:30 until 2pm on a Sunday in the suburbs.

That should do it

condra

Tempting

Tomk1

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I have the God Delusion on tape, we could hook it up to 800w loud speakers and play it from 9:30 until 2pm on a Sunday in the suburbs.

That should do it

But then they would get a 1000W loud speaker

Just create a mag "Atheist today" and hand it to them as they come to your door?

Hivemind187

Tomk1 wrote: »

But then they would get a 1000W loud speaker

Just create a mag "Atheist today" and hand it to them as they come to your door?

Dig a pit, fill it with hungry Lions and when they fall in - tell them it's a living metaphor to test their faith.

jtsuited

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Dig a pit, fill it with hungry Lions and when they fall in - tell them it's a living metaphor to test their faith.

best retaliation suggestion yet.

barfizz

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Understanding the basics of evolution doesn't require understanding of anything more than mutation and natural selection. Neither are very tricky concepts. I agree with what you're saying about the framework, but what I'm saying is that it is quite practical for any person to immerse themselves to the degree required to understand the basic. But for whatever reason, be it social prejudice against science as being boring or nerdy, be it the CSI/Heroes take on the core principles, the mainstream media dumbing-down of science into weekly miracles or just the general aloofness of the scientific community, it just doesn't happen.



I'm aware of that. Is this actually reflective of their capacity to understand evolution? I seriously doubt it. I don't think that you're giving the average person enough credit. They're far cleverer than they let on. They just don't care about science unless it's giving them a new version of the iPhone. I reckon that apathy is as much the fault of the scientific community as it is anyone else's.

Guys i appreciate your frustration at some peoples understanding (of evolution) , but I would suggest that you are pushing the exceptions (lack of understanding) that you have encountered into the region of the norm, many people may not be able to express their understanding of evolution in a clear manner but i believe that they have a basic and adequate knowledge of the process. Most people ( the majority in Europe) laugh at the concept of creationism so don’t lose heart.

barfizz

Back to the original point, am i allowed to scream at these people when they call and complain that they are oppressing me, scaring me and leaving me in a state of shock coz they are telling me if I don’t do what they tell me that I am going to burn!!!
Isn’t that called intimidating and threatening behaviour ???

robindch

barfizz wrote: »

Isn’t that called intimidating and threatening behaviour ???

As Asiaprod says, just give it back to them. Tell 'em that in your religion, all christians are going to burn in hell, screaming for all eternity from inside a lake of burning sulfur for the crime of not believing that such a threat exists.

Then ask them to join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He's offering a beer volcano for all eternity, you know!

Zamboni

I got so fed up with the gits from the local church putting there crap leaflet in my postbox, I actually chased them once. But it turned out it was just a nice old man.
I couldn't say anything bad to him, he would have had a heart attack!
I'd make a crap atheist soldier :pac:

Mitch Connor

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I don't think it is really. There's a lot of reasons why people are hesitant to try to understand science, but evolution is a really simple theory. I think a general lack of interest or even plain laziness are much stronger influences there. And it's not really the public's fault either.

the basics are fairly easy to understand, but I am having a hard time understanding the science behind it, to be honest. Currently trying to read the Blind Watchmaker and while i get that it is mutations being carried through generations through natural selection that 'cause' evolution I still don't understandwhy it actually works - if the end result of an evolutionary trend is the eye, where did it start and how did it actually evolve? dawkins consistently speaks of design in the process but he either hasn't explained where the design comes from or i'm simply not smart enough to have understood when he did. At the moment, while he paints a convincing picture of evolution and how it happens, I don't get where evolution can't be the answer HOW god created everything.

Zamboni

Mitch Connor wrote: »

At the moment, while he paints a convincing picture of evolution and how it happens, I don't get where evolution can't be the answer HOW god created everything.

Even if there was a god who used evolution as his Black & Decker tool for creating everything, how do you explain his origins?
Even if evolution was proved conclusivley wrong, that still does not provide evidence of a supernatural power.

PDN

eoin5 wrote: »

I got one of these too, its pretty bad that a congregations money gets spent on junk like that. They should make at least an equal contribution (over what they might usually give) to a good charity like the childrens hospital up the road for their self indulgent crusade.

A congregation is simply a group of people who agree to meet together and pool their resources to create certain effects.

If these people want to use their money to spread this stuff around then they are free to do so. Vegetarians, UFO enthusiasts, political parties, and atheists all have the same freedom - it's part of living in a reasonably free democratic society as opposed to living in North Korea or Iran.

I don't agree with what these people are pushing, but, as with veggies, atheists & other crackpots, I defend their right to do so as long as they do so in a way that is legal and avoids creating a nuisance (eg knocking on doors late at night, early in the morning, or when they have been specifically requested to stay away).

I get lots of stuff pushed through my letterbox that I don't agree with - and I put it in the bin without getting annoyed or wanting to retaliate. I don't see why people get so worked up.

Mitch Connor

Zamboni wrote: »

Even if there was a god who used evolution as his Black & Decker tool for creating everything, how do you explain his origins?
Even if evolution was proved conclusivley wrong, that still does not provide evidence of a supernatural power.

i don't have an explanation for the origins of God, if there is a God. (Could be a 'her' you sexist beast:p) However, just because I, or someone else doesn't have an explanation for the origin of God, it doesn't mean there isn't one. Such an argument would, I suppose, be labeled an Argument of Incredulity by Dawkins.

I would believe in the theory of evolution, i do believe it is how life has evolved to what it is now in its various forms (as opposed to created in 6 days as a creationist would argue), but evolution does not discount the possibility of a God from what i can tell from my understanding of it at the moment (very basic understanding, underpinned by about a quarter of The Blind Watchmaker at this point - not claiming to have great knowledge on the subject, quite the opposite). Maybe, hopefully, with more reading it will become clearer where design comes into evolution without a designer.

DarkJager

Just do what I do...throw every single thing with any reference to religion straight in the bin when it comes through your door. As for that DVD, you should break it into pieces and post it back to them if they've supplied an address.

Dades

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I would believe in the theory of evolution, i do believe it is how life has evolved to what it is now in its various forms (as opposed to created in 6 days as a creationist would argue), but evolution does not discount the possibility of a God from what i can tell from my understanding of it at the moment (very basic understanding, underpinned by about a quarter of The Blind Watchmaker at this point - not claiming to have great knowledge on the subject, quite the opposite). Maybe, hopefully, with more reading it will become clearer where design comes into evolution without a designer.

I can't imagine in what context Dawkins was referring to design - but you must have misinterpreted it. The very underpinning of natural selection it that is happens randomly with no guiding hand whatsoever; i.e. the antithesis of design.

Maybe you should get a Reader's Digest explanation before slogging on with the Blind Watchmaker? There might be something in this thread, or maybe someone can point you toward a nice concise explanation.

Mitch Connor

Dades wrote: »

I can't imagine in what context Dawkins was referring to design - but you must have misinterpreted it. The very underpinning of natural selection it that is happens randomly with no guiding hand whatsoever; i.e. the antithesis of design.

Maybe you should get a Reader's Digest explanation before slogging on with the Blind Watchmaker? There might be something in this thread, or maybe someone can point you toward a nice concise explanation.

He talks about design with regards complexity.

You could have the pieces required to make a plane, but throwing them randomly together would be highly unlikely to create something that flies. A mountain on the other hand is basically a collection of rocks and the order in which they have been put together is of little importance - one mountain is much like another and Mount Blanc (his example) would probably still be called mount blanc regardless of how it is put together.

As for randomly with no guiding hand at all - that is completely opposite of my understanding. From what i have read (and thought i understood) so far is that evolution is very much NON-Random - The mutations themselves are random, but those mutated genes being carried on is not; it is natural selection, natural selection being the guiding hand.

pH

PDN wrote: »

I don't agree with what these people are pushing, but, as with veggies, atheists & other crackpots, I defend their right to do so as long as they do so in a way that is legal and avoids creating a nuisance (eg knocking on doors late at night, early in the morning, or when they have been specifically requested to stay away).

And it's appreciated when you & other narrow minded bigots do so.

Thanks.

Dades

pH wrote: »

I don't agree with what these people are pushing, but, as with veggies, atheists & other crackpots, I defend their right to do so as long as they do so in a way that is legal and avoids creating a nuisance (eg knocking on doors late at night, early in the morning, or when they have been specifically requested to stay away).

pH wrote:

And it's appreciated when you & other narrow minded bigots do so.

Can we put away the handbags, ladies?

TIA

Dades

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The mutations themselves are random, but those mutated genes being carried on is not; it is natural selection, natural selection being the guiding hand.

The very term 'natural', means that it happens naturally; i.e. in nature, without intervention! Rainwater naturally fills a hole in the ground, but we'd never suggest in this situation that nature was a 'guiding hand', because we know it's just physics in action.

Similarly, that mutations that offer some sort of advantage to their carriers have a better chance of survival, does not suggest the guiding hand of a designer - it's just biology in action.

Mitch Connor

i'm gonna have to start this book again....

ChocolateSauce

I've never had anything like that...but I have a skeptical inquirer sticker on my door which proclaims "I doubt it!"

Though that might be a magnet come to think of it!

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

A congregation is simply a group of people who agree to meet together and pool their resources to create certain effects.

If these people want to use their money to spread this stuff around then they are free to do so. Vegetarians, UFO enthusiasts, political parties, and atheists all have the same freedom - it's part of living in a reasonably free democratic society as opposed to living in North Korea or Iran.

I don't agree with what these people are pushing, but, as with veggies, atheists & other crackpots, I defend their right to do so as long as they do so in a way that is legal and avoids creating a nuisance (eg knocking on doors late at night, early in the morning, or when they have been specifically requested to stay away).

I get lots of stuff pushed through my letterbox that I don't agree with - and I put it in the bin without getting annoyed or wanting to retaliate. I don't see why people get so worked up.

I do. How we treat disease is based on our understanding of evolution. Science shouldn't have to waste time fighting a propaganda battle. It should be used to help sick people and better humanity.

What these people are doing means that Science has to waste time countering this propaganda.

If someone was posting DVDs and leaflets saying climate change wasn't happening based on sloppy scientific understanding, I'd have a problem with that too.

Would you?