should casino owners be allowed play in there own house

Rod & Reel

My local poker hall is a small gathering of 1 table per nite. 1/2 cash blinds.

When it opened first it would have 2/3 tables. 1 was for a 50/1 blind and other 2, 1/2 blind.

It has its regular players. 1 is the owner and 1 is his friend. (well i assume there friends they got out together and i ve heard them talking of been in each others houses.)

my point to this thread is should the owner be allowed to play in his casino im sure there is no law saying they cant. but he is killing his own game and the way he is doing this is by playing 80% hands and is doing his best to get the rake up and then the pot gets so big he doesnt like to lose that either.
he sits with maybe 600 quid average 200. so he will push allin and if ur on a marginal hand its hard to make that call. as we know easier to push than to call an allin.

i went to the local casino last sat nite. 2.30 in the morning and they didnt have 1 player in the room and 3 staff twidling there thumbs.

iv heard that some casinos dont allow there staff to play in there place of work.

Any thoughts ideas or out right disgust at this thread plaese let me know.

sickpuppy

Owners should not play in there own place conflict of interest.
I dont think dealers should be allowed play in there own clubs either.
Played monday in fitz freeze out a young guy new enough dealer is involved in a 3 way pot.
River comes and he open folds with two guys yet to act.
I asked him if a guy bets and hes last to act and folds out of turn is it ok?
Now i dont mind dealers playing tournaments but cash should be a no no.
If adealer is playing at a table they should set agood example behaviour wise monkey see monkey do and all that.

mdwexford

Sounds like hes giving away free monies, id just keep quiet and take it.

5starpool

What dealer was this mick? Dealers in the Fitz can't play cash unless they are only helping out (i.e. not a full time dealer) or unless the rule has changed.

Edit: I see you were talking about a tourney, my bad.

sickpuppy

Sorry tourney Dom not cash still silly behaviour imo of course,
i will try and make my posts clearer.
Folding with 2players left to act is just annoying i mean just checking is the right thing to do,
i inormed the guy it was rude and please dont do it again.

TommyGunne

As mdwexford says, this guy sounds like huge value. Dunno why you're complaining.

Mr Minraise

sickpuppy wrote: »

Sorry tourney Dom not cash still silly behaviour imo of course,
i will try and make my posts clearer.
Folding with 2players left to act is just annoying i mean just checking is the right thing to do,
i inormed the guy it was rude and please dont do it again.

Whats wrong with doing that?

Its a stupid thing to do but he's well within his rights to do it. He had 3 options when the action was on him, check, bet or fold, and he choose one of them. Its not as if any player in particluar left to act gains advantage, they both gain the extra info.

sickpuppy

Its bad manners for a start thats whats wrong with it.
I may be in my rights to put down my terminally ill dog by means of a concrete block but does not mean its right or correct way to act.
The guy works here so his conduct at the table should be exemplary and an example to others a good one if you cant see that get some laser eye surgery.

mormank

i think you will find that you are in fact not within your rights to put down your dog with a lethal blow with a concrete block. it is totally differnet to folding out of turn also. if you think it is inpolite then that is a personal thing and nothing anybody can say will change that. however he is well within his rights to fold here and calling it a 'bad example' is simply wrong

bohsman

Owners playing in their own club? Usually value with other things going on in their heads at the same time. Should never be allowed make a ruling while in a game.

Dealers? Not on the same night theyve worked (take your tips and use them to try to take your money - very bad form) other than that as long as theyre on their best behaviour at all times I see nothing wrong with it.

Mr Minraise

sickpuppy wrote: »

Its bad manners for a start thats whats wrong with it.
I may be in my rights to put down my terminally ill dog by means of a concrete block but does not mean its right or correct way to act.
The guy works here so his conduct at the table should be exemplary and an example to others a good one if you cant see that get some laser eye surgery.

I really dont see why your complaining as the guy is doing you a favour.

If he's last to act and walks away i could see your point.

I see it all the time where if button pushes it in a tourny and SB seeming to be tanking over a call, BB mucks to give him some extra encouragement. BB is obviously wrong and bad-mannered etc. but the situation you describe couldnt be more different.

themilkyone

Well you said yourself that the dealer was new..and im fairly sure I know who it is. Maybe he's not familiar with the entire etiquette thing. Its not the WORST thing you could do but yes I do understand its annoying and bad form. Also,while Im on my little rant... I dont see anything wrong with dealers playing cash. Main reason why I left the Fitz

sickpuppy

Are you shower not familiar with manners or ettiquette at all?
I suppose slowrolling and splashing pots is ok for dealers to be doing too?
Its a bad example for aguy who works there enough bs acting at tables with foul language betting folding out of turn splashing popt etc,
rthis messing should be nipped in the bud.
Throw in angle shooting too.

bohsman

A casino employee should be on their best behaviour in any cardgame they play in around the country, they are always seen to be representing their club.

themilkyone

jeez your taking this a little over-board. its no were near as bad as slowrolling/splashing/angle shooting or anything along those lines for that matter. bohsman is dead on about it,dealers shud be allowed play but just not on the night they worked. im sure he now knows not to do it again cause im guessing you gave him a stern talking to

Wreck

sickpuppy wrote: »

Its bad manners for a start thats whats wrong with it.
I may be in my rights to put down my terminally ill dog by means of a concrete block but does not mean its right or correct way to act.
The guy works here so his conduct at the table should be exemplary and an example to others a good one if you cant see that get some laser eye surgery.

Lol its not bad manners at all, perfectly entitled to fold in turn if he so wishes.

On topic, I don't think anyone conected to the casino should play, either in cash or tournaments.

mormank

bohsman wrote: »

A casino employee should be on their best behaviour in any cardgame they play in around the country, they are always seen to be representing their club.

best behaviour yes. but he is not misbehaving by folding IN TURN. thats the issue

bohsman

I wasnt particularly talking about that one situation, I could name 10 far worse examples. But Mick is right, folding to no bet is seen as bad ettiquette.

mormank

ok its just a thought. but of all these little things that are seen as bad itiquette e.g. folding out of turn, slowrolling etc you are unable to perfom any of them in online poker. however you can fold in turn to no bet. just a thought

Ace2007

of course you can slowroll online to an extend....

bohsman

You can certainly slowroll - as in wait till timebank goes down to call. It obviously isnt against the rules to fold to no bet but especially as its seen as bad form a dealer shouldnt be doing it.

Wreck

bohsman wrote: »

I wasnt particularly talking about that one situation, I could name 10 far worse examples. But Mick is right, folding to no bet is seen as bad ettiquette.

By whom? It is a perfectly legit action, never ever heard it described as bad ettiquette before.

bohsman

The vast majority of people.

HoLLLLLaments

owners playing in the game is +ev, just ask any of the riverside regs

Chucky the tree

why is folding in turn bad manners?

mormank

bohsman wrote: »

You can certainly slowroll - as in wait till timebank goes down to call. It obviously isnt against the rules to fold to no bet but especially as its seen as bad form a dealer shouldnt be doing it.

my understanding of a slowroll is not showing the clear winning hand at a showdown situation..its not having the nuts and letting the time go down..or at least the only one that happens in live games is the first one(or at least counts for something like 90% of slowrolls)

max_power

sickpuppy wrote: »

Its bad manners for a start thats whats wrong with it.
I may be in my rights to put down my terminally ill dog by means of a concrete block but does not mean its right or correct way to act.

I'm fairly sure the ISPCA, the Guards and a lot of other people would disagree.

bohsman

mormank wrote: »

my understanding of a slowroll is not showing the clear winning hand at a showdown situation..its not having the nuts and letting the time go down..or at least the only one that happens in live games is the first one(or at least counts for something like 90% of slowrolls)

No, that can happen live too, if for example Reggie pushes all in and Im sitting there with the nuts Im automatically going to look back at my hand for a minute, think about it, ask the dealer for a count and then say, I think youve a good hand but Im gonna call, what have you got?

5starpool

It is generally seen as bad etiquette as folding in turn in a 3 handed pot for example means that it becomes a 2 handed pot and changes the way the hand plays out significantly in some cases. Instead of being worried about a check raise, they now know that you can't do this and it changes their options dramatically imo.

Anyone that plays in dublin clubs regularly should be aware of this, not sure of clubs in other parts of the country though.

tipp86

Think its sometimes needed in smaller clubs to get games started.

Wreck

5starpool wrote: »

It is generally seen as bad etiquette as folding in turn in a 3 handed pot for example means that it becomes a 2 handed pot and changes the way the hand plays out significantly in some cases. Instead of being worried about a check raise, they now know that you can't do this and it changes their options dramatically imo.

By that logic, checking, betting or raising in turn must also be bad manners as it changes the way the hand plays out, significantly in most cases. I play live fairly regularly, and I've never seen or heard anything to suggest that this is frowned upon.

sickpuppy

Wreck your logic is as warped as a dogs hind leg with polio.
You must play with some right goons if you think open folding 3 handed ina multi street pot is seen as normal.

5starpool

Wreck wrote: »

By that logic, checking, betting or raising in turn must also be bad manners as it changes the way the hand plays out, significantly in most cases. I play live fairly regularly, and I've never seen or heard anything to suggest that this is frowned upon.

That is just a daft analogy. Folding in turn when not heads up in a pot is in my books akin to betting out of turn, such is the impact it has on hands.

I'm not saying I have never done it, but unless I am busting to go to the jacks or something I try to wait until the appropriate time to fold.

Wreck

5starpool wrote: »

That is just a daft analogy. Folding in turn when not heads up in a pot is in my books akin to betting out of turn, such is the impact it has on hands.

No its not a daft analogy. You stated that the objection to folding in turn to no bet was bad ettiqutte because it has an effect on how the hand plays out. I merely pointing out that when the action is on someone they have three legit action - check, bet or fold. No matter what action they take it has an impact on the hand.

Comparing it to betting out of turn is the daft analogy, as betting out of turn is not a legitemate action, it's against the rules of the game.

I'm obviously wrong here in that this is seen as bad manners by many players, maybe I just never noticed it before. It must stem from the reaction to people folding out of turn, as I can't for the life of me see how it would arise otherwise.

Oh, and fwiw, I've never done this, and probably never will, simply because it gives free info to others at the table.

mormank

but the significant difference 5star is that betting out of turn isnt frowned upon. it is not allowed, simple as that. but folding in turn IS a valid option. ask any TD.

Macspower

back to the original question. I don't see whole lot wrong with the owner playing if he abides by the same rules as the players.. but in my experience I've found that the owners play by a different set of rules.. we certainly west the shannon in my experience

5starpool

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one by the sounds of it.

Spuca

Folding IN turn is in my opinion fine. Its a valid move, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Ill trade, no-one gets to fold in turn, if no-one is ever EVER allowed hollywood again. Sweet deal.

Also, the reason most staff play in their own casinos is they're banned from playing in others i think. If the casino allows staff to play somewhere else then they shouldn't play in the casino. However some casinos don't like their staff to help the competition so it makes sense.

You can't stop us from playing anywhere in the country. Thats just cruel. We leave that for the Croupiers!

ollyk1

5starpool wrote: »

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one by the sounds of it.

I used to be against it myself for the reasons you've stated Dom but I've actually changed my mind on it over time.

I think guys who are inclined to fold instead of check in turn continue to do it throughout a session and in the long run better players benefit from this more then they lose from letting a guy have a stab from late position with one less player to "get through" the odd time.

It is after all a major tell both when they do it and when they don't do it :rolleyes: and I've very very rarely seen a good player do it so its a good way of categorizing a player in my mind.

thechamp87

it's not against the rules, but i think it's very bad etiquette to open fold. i think you should only ever fold when facing a bet. also, it's just stupid - there's no reason you couldnt win the hand. it really pisses me off.

Ace2007

why would anyone want to fold - if you missed bet....:rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

Lol, this is bad etiquette? Well bad etiquette me up and call me shirly. I think that opinion is nonsense. Each to their own. I'll certainly use one of my 3 options when I want.

daithijjj

lol......my bro and i just had an argument/debate on the fold to no bet issue.......we disagree on it lol............he says its not a problem, i say it can be seen as collusion. It could be seen as 1 player (the player who folded) is in collusion with one of the other players left in the pot in an attempt to push the other player out.........for eg, player 1 bets into me and my "colluder", i reraise, my "colluder" calls (with rubbish). Where this then leaves the player 1 with an almost impossible task if he/she didnt have the nuts......................it can be seen as collusion, full stop, no iffs no buts.

Rod & Reel

can we keep to the issue here ppl.

Goodluck2me

daithijjj wrote: »

lol......my bro and i just had an argument/debate on the fold to no bet issue.......we disagree on it lol............he says its not a problem, i say it can be seen as collusion. It could be seen as 1 player (the player who folded) is in collusion with one of the other players left in the pot in an attempt to push the other player out.........for eg, player 1 bets into me and my "colluder", i reraise, my "colluder" calls (with rubbish). Where this then leaves the player 1 with an almost impossible task if he/she didnt have the nuts......................it can be seen as collusion, full stop, no iffs no buts.

thats nothign to do with folding first. wtf?

hotspur

I have been very happy to have dealers playing at my tables, it's not that they are worse than the average punter as players, but in my experience they have a greater tendency to get involved in action probably because playing a patient game is too similar to working. This tendency is completely understandable but requires a higher level of skill to pull off. It is arguable that it requires a level of skill such that having it would likely preclude one from bothering to deal for financial reasons. Hence dealers = value imo.

FeetMagic

OP is this a club in Galway? If its the club Im thinking of you should be happy to have the owner playing!!

daithijjj

goodluck2me wrote: »

thats nothign to do with folding first. wtf?

your not quite getting the point here........i just gave an example of how folding to no bet can be construed as collusion. In the original example, the player first to act folded, this can also be construed as collusion if the colluders have signals whereby one of them has got the nuts and has signalled to his friend that he has the pot. This is a simple explanation of why folding to no bet is bad etiquette, not to mention a stupid thing to do in the first place. However i can understand it if the player in question is a rookie player.

getting back to the real question, its not a problem for casino staff to play in there own workplace but its not going to improve the business. If the owner is relying on himself or his staff to play to keep things ticking over then he is just a bad businessman. I can also understand it if there isnt another casino in the area, in any case, it will be difficult to get new business. Ive played in casinos in england for 8 years, generally the staff cant set foot in the place when they are not at work and im not just talking about dealers, not even the waitresses can be there when its not theyre shift.

poker--addict

i see poker rarely in live cash games...

however iv seen an owner play twice....and hit poker twice...both within 10 hands of sitting down..

luck?!?!even if it is it sure does smell......and i know people think this too..and as a result think twice before puttin their cash down...:eek:

Lazare

daithijjj wrote: »

your not quite getting the point here........i just gave an example of how folding to no bet can be construed as collusion. In the original example, the player first to act folded, this can also be construed as collusion if the colluders have signals whereby one of them has got the nuts and has signalled to his friend that he has the pot.
.

Explain how open folding is more beneficial to a pair of colluders than check folding.

daithijjj

Lazare wrote: »

Explain how open folding is more beneficial to a pair of colluders than check folding.

can you point out where i said it was beneficial? i didnt, i said it was a stupid thing to do. Perhaps it was a rookie move, ive seen that happen at some fish markets. The point is, it CAN be contrued as collusion by other players, that is why there is a notion called ETIQUETTE.