Make organised crime gangs 'Illegal Organisations'?

eroo

After the murder of Shane Geoghegan, I started thinking to myself that with public pressure, the Govt may be forced to introduce new legislation(maybe not too:rolleyes:). Should organised crime gangs be proscribed as 'illegal organisations', similiar to paramilitary organisations? Then, members of these gangs could be tried in the non-jury Special Criminal Court. This would cancel out the threat of jury intimidation. A mandatory sentence of 10 years then handed down to those convicted of membership?

Just looking for suggestions, as down here, people are horrified at the latest murder and they have had enough(as have I).

Sierra Oscar

I agree that something has to be done. These gangs have become more steadily dangerous over the last number of years, and are acting like murder squads. It is time for the government to get tough!

metman

Having worked on 'Op Trident' turf for a number of years I doubt any legislative action will be taken against similar criminal scum in Eire. Why not? For the same reason gangs haven't been made outlawed organisations here. Operational difficulty and general lack of evidence.

Trojan911

eroo wrote: »

After the murder of Shane Geoghegan, I started thinking to myself that with public pressure, the Govt may be forced to introduce new legislation(maybe not too:rolleyes:).

I think I heard something on the Matt Cooper show today about the introduction of new legislation to combat this. Now, whether it will happen is another thing.

The government should have had this sorted long ago, but no, they skimp & scrape with the AGS budget, pull back resources to suit when they should be flooding these areas with priority.

Is there a witness protection programme in place here in Ireland?

eroo

Trojan911 wrote: »

Is there a witness protection programme in place here in Ireland?

Yes there is.:)

Paulzx

Simple solution. During the troubles membership of an illegal organisation e.g the IRA meant prison. From what i understand of the legislation only the word in court of a senior Garda officer was required to convict an individual of membership of a proscribed organisation.

Draw up legislation to do the same thing for members of organised crime gangs.

I know feck all about the law so maybe this is too simplistic but it was done before and if it was good enough for IRA scummers its good enough for gangland scummers.

Stand up to the pc do gooders when they get on their high horses and start crying about civil liberties. The silent majority just want to live their lives peacefully and get these people locked up

Tipsy Mac

At the moment the prisons are overcrowded, if you ask most people if they would rather lock up the common criminals who burgle their houses and mug them or to lock up some thugs who go around shooting each other I think most would chose the common criminal. I recognise that recently some completely innocent people have been shot but for the most part it's thugs killing thugs with no innocent parties involved.

I wouldn't support any expansion of the current laws in place.

Paulzx

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

At the moment the prisons are overcrowded, if you ask most people if they would rather lock up the common criminals who burgle their houses and mug them or to lock up some thugs who go around shooting each other I think most would chose the common criminal. I recognise that recently some completely innocent people have been shot but for the most part it's thugs killing thugs with no innocent parties involved.

I wouldn't support any expansion of the current laws in place.

I completely disagree. The plumber in Marlo Hylands house was innocent. The girl in the house in Coolock was innocent. The lad in Limerick last night was innicent. These people have no discipline as regards the use of firearms and bystanders will continue to be shot. Each shooting involves the discharge of large amounts of ammunition due the shooters lack of ability with weapons. These bullets have to lodge somewhere. Its luck of the draw where this somewhere is

TheNog

There are many things that could be done to help put these bastards behind bars such as

1. membership of an illegal organisation

2. tightening of mobile phone regulations - no more unregistered phones

3. introuduction TETRA asap

4. ANPR soon after

5. tightening up of car ownership details (like the UK).

6. increased undercover work along with intelligence from other Police Forces

I have many more ideas to make policing more efficient some small, some not so.

Dave!

Is it not kind of a slippery slope with this kind of thing? I mean the IRA was/is a threat to the state itself, which was their target. These gangs are mainly concerned with making money, and the violence is a result of conflict between themselves and other gangs, or themselves and Johnny Law (correct me if I'm wrong!). It could be argued that they're a threat to the state by the fact that they attack police, but then does that involve any attack on a Garda?

I suppose the fact that they undermine the judicial system by intimidating witnesses, could be viewed as an attack on the state itself.

As long as common sense is used, it would be useful to treat them as illegal organisations, but by the same token this kind of legislation is there for a specific purpose, and to generalise it to this situation may be contrary to the scope of the legislation.

I'm open to being swayed, I'm undecided!

IRISH RAIL

TheNog wrote: »

There are many things that could be done to help put these bastards behind bars such as

1. membership of an illegal organisation

2. tightening of mobile phone regulations - no more unregistered phones

3. introuduction TETRA asap

4. ANPR soon after

5. tightening up of car ownership details (like the UK).

6. increased undercover work along with intelligence from other Police Forces

I have many more ideas to make policing more efficient some small, some not so.

sure tetra was broken a long time ago its about as secure as the main system, and theres major health issues coming out about it from uk officers
what we need here is PTT on mobile phones thats the most secure system in place freely available aswell but the phone companies wont launch it as it means less profit.

Eru

In a simple world that would be a good idea but in reality I cant see it working. Besides the legal problems even I wouldnt give Gardai that much power, it would simple be too tempting for some and could lead to 'honourable corruption'.

An option would be adopting methods used by the NYPD and the Italian police in dealing with the mafia. I dont know details in Italy but in New York they have whats called, RICO cases which basically convicts someone of 'organising' crime. It means that you can convict the bosses based on evidence that they either commanded the action or it was done with their blessing.

However as has been said before, passing laws is worthless unless you have the manpower and tools to implement them and the sentences to back it up.

Gavin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

sure tetra was broken a long time ago its about as secure as the main system, and theres major health issues coming out about it from uk officers

Slightly off topic, but have you got any references for that? It's a digital system and as such any encryption algorithm can be used with it. There are numerous algorithms that would be appropriate and are currently unbreakable.

On topic, the papers are talking a bit about electronic surveillance. All my watching of The Wire tells me that such surveillance is a good idea and effective. Is the information gained actually useful in terms of evidence in court, or more of an aid to obtaining more substantial intelligence ? As in, is it worthwhile introducing this legislation allowing for wiretaps to be used as evidence?

TheNog

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

sure tetra was broken a long time ago its about as secure as the main system, and theres major health issues coming out about it from uk officers

Broken how?

I have heard of the health issues but afaik there is no substance or any real studies done yet. Could be wrong though if ye have any links.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

what we need here is PTT on mobile phones thats the most secure system in place freely available aswell but the phone companies wont launch it as it means less profit.

Have heard of PTT but believe it is still in its infancy.

Verb wrote: »

On topic, the papers are talking a bit about electronic surveillance. All my watching of The Wire tells me that such surveillance is a good idea and effective. Is the information gained actually useful in terms of evidence in court, or more of an aid to obtaining more substantial intelligence ? As in, is it worthwhile introducing this legislation allowing for wiretaps to be used as evidence?

If I remember correctly electronic surveillance is not and cannot be used in court but McDowell was talking about introducing legislation where it can be used. The problem lies in what type of surveillance can be used in court which would then be known to the criminals and give them a better chance to combat it.

Current surveillance techniques used now are done so to keep track of the criminals and what they are planning in order for them to reach their end goal, i.e. rob a post office and catch them in action, as opposed to preventing the action and then trying to prosecute them for intention.

Gavin

TheNog wrote: »

Have heard of PTT but believe it is still in its infancy.

Not to mention that running a secure network over an insecure public network is not a particularly good idea. Not only from a security p.o.v but it's also more vulnerable to natural disaster.

If I remember correctly electronic surveillance is not and cannot be used in court but McDowell was talking about introducing legislation where it can be used. The problem lies in what type of surveillance can be used in court which would then be known to the criminals and give them a better chance to combat it.

Ah. Hadn't considered that point. I'd imagine that a lot of what is possible is documented and such documentation 'out there', although it may not be actually practical. I recall the FBI seemed to be able to get away with using evidence from the CARNVORE and Magic Lantern system, without having to document exactly how it worked. http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/fbi_spyware?currentPage=all

Current surveillance techniques used now are done so to keep track of the criminals and what they are planning in order for them to reach their end goal, i.e. rob a post office and catch them in action, as opposed to preventing the action and then trying to prosecute them for intention.

A dangerous approach for all concerned, unfortunate that it has to be done that way. Must read up more about this, it's very interesting. Anyone know of any decent books ?

eroo

Dave! wrote: »

It could be argued that they're a threat to the state by the fact that they attack police, but then does that involve any attack on a Garda?

They are a threat to the State as they flood it with narcotics which in turn ruin, often kill, the people of this State.

They are a threat to this State as they have no regard for law and order, or those that do.

They are a threat to this State as they break the laws of this State, both minor and serious, on a continuous basis.

They are a threat to this State as they flood our country with illegal weaponry.

They are a more of a threat to this State than paramilitaries right now.

They are a threat to the State as they take life regurarly, and see nothing wrong with it.

They are a threat to the State as they are a threat to every man, woman and child.

They are a threat to this State. Simple as. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly, deluded. Tell Baiba Saluite's 2 young children, Anthony Campbell's mother, Shane Geoghan's fiance, Brian Fitzgerald's family(I could go on) that organised crime gangs are not a threat to the State!!

Eru

eroo wrote: »

They are a threat to the State as they flood it with narcotics which in turn ruin, often kill, the people of this State.

They are a threat to this State as they have no regard for law and order, or those that do.

They are a threat to this State as they break the laws of this State, both minor and serious, on a continuous basis.

They are a threat to this State as they flood our country with illegal weaponry.

They are a more of a threat to this State than paramilitaries right now.

They are a threat to the State as they take life regurarly, and see nothing wrong with it.

They are a threat to the State as they are a threat to every man, woman and child.

They are a threat to this State. Simple as. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly, deluded. Tell Baiba Saluite's 2 young children, Anthony Campbell's mother, Shane Geoghan's fiance, Brian Fitzgerald's family(I could go on) that organised crime gangs are not a threat to the State!!

Eroo,
A threat to the state means the government itself and its agencies. IE an organisation or act targeting the government or its agencies. IRA were a threat as they ultimately wanted to govern the country. Their objectives and methods specifically targeted the legitimate government. IRA men were not tried under the offences against the state act for bank jobs, etc.

Having said that murder and posession of firearms do fall under the offeneces against the state act.

CiaranC

eroo wrote: »

They are a threat to the State as they flood it with narcotics which in turn ruin, often kill, the people of this State.

They are a threat to this State as they have no regard for law and order, or those that do.

They are a threat to this State as they break the laws of this State, both minor and serious, on a continuous basis.

They are a threat to this State as they flood our country with illegal weaponry.

They are a more of a threat to this State than paramilitaries right now.

They are a threat to the State as they take life regurarly, and see nothing wrong with it.

They are a threat to the State as they are a threat to every man, woman and child.

They are a threat to this State. Simple as. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly, deluded. Tell Baiba Saluite's 2 young children, Anthony Campbell's mother, Shane Geoghan's fiance, Brian Fitzgerald's family(I could go on) that organised crime gangs are not a threat to the State!!

They are not a threat to the state.

eroo

CiaranC wrote: »

They are not a threat to the state.

Simple as that then? You couldn't be bothered providing an argument?

eroo

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Eroo,
A threat to the state means the government itself and its agencies. IE an organisation or act targeting the government or its agencies. IRA were a threat as they ultimately wanted to govern the country. Their objectives and methods specifically targeted the legitimate government. IRA men were not tried under the offences against the state act for bank jobs, etc.

Having said that murder and posession of firearms do fall under the offeneces against the state act.

Yes, they do not wish to overthrow the powers that be, but they are threat to it's agencies.

deadwood

Verb wrote: »

Must read up more about this, it's very interesting. Anyone know of any decent books ?

petergfiffin

The difference between the IRA & these "groups" was, as others have said, that the IRA saw themselves as the rightful army & Sinn Fein as the rightful government of this country and as such were a direct threat to the state. These gangs are not a threat to the state they may be a threat to everybody in it but not the actual state itself i.e. they do not want to overthrow the government.

I reckon it would be very difficult to prove anybody is an actual member of one of these gangs, I mean how would you define a member? Is it somebody who is in their presence, gets paid or takes part in acts it's all subjective. Don't get me wrong, I want nothing more than to see these guys wiped out and their lives made miserable but there's no point in bringing in weak laws that mean in a couple of years they get released and given a big fat compensation pay out.

I heard on the radio this morning (don't know how true it is) that there's already a huge number of warrants out for these guys already so why not just pick them up for those and continue to do them for every single offence with no more concurrent sentencing, surely there's already grounds to take these guys off the streets for a while.

donvito99

An Irish CIA/MI5 maybe, or is there one already, G2 or something?

donvito99

Good to see some effort and time being put in already. Source RTE


Searches have been conducted in Limerick, Dublin and Cork as part of the investigation into the murder of Shane Geoghegan.
The searches were also part of a wider operation against gang-related crime.
One house in east Cork searched by gardaí had been used by a man with close ties to the McCarthy-Dundon gang.
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It is understood that the man no longer lives at that address.
A number of items, including phones and documents, were seized during the raid at the house in Cobh.

Gardaí say they are searching for firearms and other evidence that may be useful in the fight against those involved in criminal activity.
It is understood members of the ERU and the National Surveillance Unit backed up by the garda helicopter are involved in the searches.

eroo

donvito99 wrote: »

An Irish CIA/MI5 maybe, or is there one already, G2 or something?

G2 are military intelligence and are Defence Forces. AFAIK, the Crime and Security branch of AGS are closest thing to an intelligence agency? Spooky stuff!:p

towel401

TheNog wrote: »

There are many things that could be done to help put these bastards behind bars such as

1. membership of an illegal organisation

2. tightening of mobile phone regulations - no more unregistered phones

3. introuduction TETRA asap

4. ANPR soon after

5. tightening up of car ownership details (like the UK).

6. increased undercover work along with intelligence from other Police Forces

I have many more ideas to make policing more efficient some small, some not so.

ushering in the orwellian society?

Frankie Lee

Legalise and regulate the narcotic industry is the only effective solution.

towel401

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Legalise and regulate the narcotic industry is the only effective solution.

so you can buy a pre-filled heroin syringe at your local tesco with one of those silly security tags on it

Frankie Lee

towel401 wrote: »

so you can buy a pre-filled heroin syringe at your local tesco with one of those silly security tags on it

Be more convenient/safe for the consumer. There will always be demand for and supply of drugs whether you like it or not, it makes a lot more sense to have control over the industry.

towel401

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Be more convenient/safe for the consumer. There will always be demand for and supply of drugs whether you like it or not, it makes a lot more sense to have control over the industry.

the last thing you want to do is encourage its use. you will get all sorts of tossers who stay away from the stuff now trying it and getting addicted

opti76

eroo wrote: »

G2 are military intelligence and are Defence Forces. AFAIK, the Crime and Security branch of AGS are closest thing to an intelligence agency? Spooky stuff!:p

more than that....

Frankie Lee

towel401 wrote: »

the last thing you want to do is encourage its use. you will get all sorts of tossers who stay away from the stuff now trying it and getting addicted

I never said encourage them, place huge amounts of tax on the produce and have control over supply.
Use extra tax revenue for rehabilitation of users and prevention measures.

towel401

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I never said encourage them, place huge amounts of tax on the produce and have control over supply.
Use extra tax revenue for rehabilitation of users and prevention measures.

huge tax will mean the drug dealers stay in business.

lets say they start selling e`s at the local tesco. imagine the government warnings on them - 'may cause instant death'. Loads of emos will try them for that reason alone. some will hopefully die but we will also end up with a whole load more drug addicted emos around the place and that has to be universally a bad thing.

eroo

towel401 wrote: »

huge tax will mean the drug dealers stay in business.

lets say they start selling e`s at the local tesco. imagine the government warnings on them - 'may cause instant death'. Loads of emos will try them for that reason alone. some will hopefully die but we will also end up with a whole load more drug addicted emos around the place and that has to be universally a bad thing.

This isn't After Hours. Post sensibly or just don't bother imo.

Frankie Lee

towel401 wrote: »

huge tax will mean the drug dealers stay in business.

lets say they start selling e`s at the local tesco. imagine the government warnings on them - 'may cause instant death'. Loads of emos will try them for that reason alone. some will hopefully die but we will also end up with a whole load more drug addicted emos around the place and that has to be universally a bad thing.

I don't think emos exist any more (went out of fashion) and I don't think tesco will ever move into the narcotic trade.

If you look at what the state is currently doing with methadone clinics is a form of decriminalising drug addicts. A good idea.

What I would imagine would happen in the legalisation of drugs is that they would be distributed maybe through specialised pharmacies or a mechanism similar to that.

I am not an expert and I've never really looked into how its done, but one thing I do know is that a war on drugs and drug crime is not winnable.

Heckler

There will be F**k all done until a Garda is killed by one of these scumbags. Then we might see some asskicking.

How someone who drives around in a 30000euro car can be given a council house and free legal aid just beggers belief..........Appropriate people need to look elsewhere to see what works and implement it.

My suggestion would be along the lines of what they did with Martin cahill. Have armed police parked outside their houses (or sitting on their garden walls), follow them everywhere they go and be quite open about it. Arrest them for every little thing. Harass them in every way possible. The notion that the Guards can't use electronic surveillance on these f**kers is a joke. Legislation in that regard needs to change.

Bring in outside Gardai if intimidation is a problem. Hell, mask the Guards if they want.

Hanging is too good for these scumbags so anything less should be acceptable.

Frankie Lee

Heckler wrote: »

There will be F**k all done until a Garda is killed by one of these scumbags. Then we might see some asskicking.

How someone who drives around in a 30000euro car can be given a council house and free legal aid just beggers belief..........Appropriate people need to look elsewhere to see what works and implement it.

My suggestion would be along the lines of what they did with Martin cahill. Have armed police parked outside their houses (or sitting on their garden walls), follow them everywhere they go and be quite open about it. Arrest them for every little thing. Harass them in every way possible. The notion that the Guards can't use electronic surveillance on these f**kers is a joke. Legislation in that regard needs to change.

Bring in outside Gardai if intimidation is a problem. Hell, mask the Guards if they want.

Hanging is too good for these scumbags so anything less should be acceptable.

And what happens then is another generation of even more violent, more dangerous and better organised criminals/businessmen/scumbags will come along. Its happened before and will continue happening until we start to get to the source.