Aer Lingus at it again......

matsil

Does anyone know when these muppets plan their latest strike action? My entire family, including my aged parents are travelling through Heathrow on a BA code share flight on Saturday 29th of November (ex. cork). I am contemplating booking a Ryanair flight into Stansted, just in case..... as a back up, and then comute across London to Heathtrow....... is that a it OTT at this early stage?

Thanks,

Matt

Stark

They haven't given a date but they said if it does happen, it will likely be before December 1st.

murphym7

Flying to Heathrow on 27th Dec and thinking of doing the same. Just don't know what the risk is like.

matsil

Well the flights with Ryanair are about €40 -which is small change really compared to the €1100 main flight costs....... BUT..... I contact BA who informed me that the rules of my ticket state that I have to check in for my flight at CORK..... ie. I can't just board the plane at Heathrow...... so I'm stuck with Aer Lingus.

Personally, I don't know who to blame..... unions, staff, management...... I just blame the lot.... it takes two to tango and all that. I have grown to despise the airline - they are a disgrace. I travelled to Thailand with my wife and daughter in 2007 and had the same problem with them..... plus others in between...... as a customer, I cannot rely on them..... IF there was an alternative carrier into Heathrow for onward connects, I would never fly Aer Lingus again, even if it meant double the fare.

In fairness to O'Leary..... he is criticised for being ruthless, but he says what he means, and does what he says....... he does exactly what it says on the tin.......

ixoy

Aye, same boat - meant to be going to Paris on the 21st, returning on the 24th. You'd think I'd have learnt when their antics threatened a previous holiday - well I hope this time that I will and never bother booking with them again.
I wonder how much notice they'll be bothered giving, if any?

brick tamland

I'm in the same boat here. due to fly to Heathrow on the 28th. what a pain in the hole. Dont suppose anybody has any update on when the possible strike could go ahead.

mickoneill30

matsil wrote: »

IF there was an alternative carrier into Heathrow for onward connects, I would never fly Aer Lingus again, even if it meant double the fare.

This is no help for your current problem but why use Heathrow? There are plenty of other airports that are hubs. I've used Frankfurt / Abu Dhabi for Asia / Australia and I've used Paris or Shannon for the US. I hate Heathrow with a passion. I've never gone through there without delays or problems of some sort.

Badabing

I think there is December 1st deadline for the managment proposals to be agreed, hopefully the labour court will get a compromise from the two. Im booked with Aer Lingus on December 24th to Chicago and we all know how unions would love to spoil Christmas for the travelling public!

Cutie18Ireland

Off to Disneyland Paris on the 24th, hoping we should be ok for a 7am flight...

Chris_533976

December 6th here, bastards

barneyeile

Chris_533976 wrote: »

December 6th here, bastards

December the 5th here! If only Ryanair flew to the USA. The unions have a real liberty with the public!

matsil

barneyeile wrote: »

December the 5th here! If only Ryanair flew to the USA. The unions have a real liberty with the public!

I think the following is a good take on the situation (Nick Mulchahy irishindependent.ie:

"Over the years, trade unions have done well for their members in Aer Lingus. The airline's staff are among the best paid in the country and when times are good they enjoy a share of the company profits. But there comes a point when people price themselves out of a job and Aer Lingus management believes this threshold has been crossed."

matsil

Due to start on Nov 24th..... :rolleyes: ..... typical......

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1111/1225925653189.html

dfx-

Would the bmi flights out be affected I wonder?

bill_ashmount

I hope every single one of them ends up losing their jobs.

beertons

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I hope every single one of them ends up losing their jobs.

Me too. Flying with Ryanair to London on 24th, thankfully my OH hates Air Lingus........lucky us!

Red Alert

Returning from the US on the 24th - anyone who fails to turn up for work should just be fired, end of story.

Bluetonic

A lot of people talking out of their pockets here.

mickoneill30

Bluetonic wrote: »

A lot of people talking out of their pockets here.

Yeah. How dare people be worried about the possibility of a flight being missed because people are on strike. Customers are sooooo inconvenient.

ixoy

Flying back on Nov 24th... wondering if I'll bother heading over if this is going to cause me so much hassle.

Bluetonic

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Yeah. How dare people be worried about the possibility of a flight being missed because people are on strike. Customers are sooooo inconvenient.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I'm sure none of the people who are talking out of their pockets have families who are dependent on these jobs.

Once everyone gets to go away on their November and December leisure trips then to hell with family life in Ireland. :rolleyes:

maggy_thatcher

Simple solution to the problem:

1. Aer Lingus Management need to revoke the offer of voluntary redundancies, and replace it with mandatory redundancies.
2. Management need to revoke the offer of up to 9 weeks per year of service and replace it with the statutory minimums.
3. Make anybody who strikes redundant, replacing them all with out-sourced staff.
4. Revoke the security clearance of any former employees so that they have no right to be at the airport.
5. If/When the whingers start blockading the airport, then have the Gardai arrest them for disturbing the peace / preventing innocent law-abiding people from going about their daily business.

Problem solved -- Aer Lingus survive, and the selfish gits who are holding the country to ransom in their traditional Christmas spirit get what they deserve.

Ste.phen

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Simple solution to the problem:

1. Aer Lingus Management need to revoke the offer of voluntary redundancies, and replace it with mandatory redundancies.
2. Management need to revoke the offer of up to 9 weeks per year of service and replace it with the statutory minimums.
3. Make anybody who strikes redundant, replacing them all with out-sourced staff.
4. Revoke the security clearance of any former employees so that they have no right to be at the airport.
5. If/When the whingers start blockading the airport, then have the Gardai arrest them for disturbing the peace / preventing innocent law-abiding people from going about their daily business.

Problem solved -- Aer Lingus survive, and the selfish gits who are holding the country to ransom in their traditional Christmas spirit get what they deserve.

Cheers maggie, but you forgot the part about cracking skulls with mounted police.

maggy_thatcher

Ste.phen wrote: »

Cheers maggie, but you forgot the part about cracking skulls with mounted police.

I don't want to be the one to start with violence. That isn't to say that if they start fighting first, we shouldn't fight back.

bill_ashmount

Bluetonic wrote: »

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I'm sure none of the people who are talking out of their pockets have families who are dependent on these jobs.

Once everyone gets to go away on their November and December leisure trips then to hell with family life in Ireland. :rolleyes:

Boo-hoo for the Aer Lingus workers. They are at it for years. Hopefully they get what's coming to them.

Bluetonic

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Hopefully they get what's coming to them.

Massive redundancies packages and/or nationwide coverage is what they will get.

bill_ashmount

Bluetonic wrote: »

Massive redundancies packages and/or nationwide coverage is what they will get.

And a trip to the dole office

Bluetonic

bill_ashmount wrote: »

And a trip to the dole office

Whats a dole office?

KC61

dfx- wrote: »

Would the bmi flights out be affected I wonder?

Why would bmi be affected?

They're a completely different airline handled by Aviance.

I wouldn't expect there to be any disruption to bmi flights.

lovepink_xo

ixoy wrote: »

Flying back on Nov 24th... wondering if I'll bother heading over if this is going to cause me so much hassle.

same here. well my current flight is booked to come back on the 26th but ive been thinking about changing to the 24th for a while now(just because i feel like i booked too long of a trip to begin with) but now im not sure if i should even bother going
i am really dissapointed this was going to be my first holiday out of the country and ive been saving up for it for ages.

if the strike does go ahead, would i be stuck waiting at the airport until its sorted out? or would they put me up in a hotel/put me on a different plane?

Bluetonic

lovepink_xo wrote: »

if the strike does go ahead, would i be stuck waiting at the airport until its sorted out? or would they put me up in a hotel/put me on a different plane?

If the strike goes ahead your flight will be cancelled and you will be offered an alternative on a different date operated by Aer Lingus or refunded.

No hotels, no alternative flights on that day.

lovepink_xo

Bluetonic wrote: »

If the strike goes ahead your flight will be cancelled and you will be offered an alternative on a different date operated by Aer Lingus or refunded.

No hotels, no alternative flights on that day.

wow. if its not sorted by the day im due to fly out i may not go at all

matsil

Bluetonic wrote: »

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I'm sure none of the people who are talking out of their pockets have families who are dependent on these jobs.

Once everyone gets to go away on their November and December leisure trips then to hell with family life in Ireland. :rolleyes:

I was layed off in June due to the economic down turn. I got statutory redundancy, which I am still waiting for from the CIF. No options, no golden parchutes, just thanks very much, close the door beind you. Did I whinge and moan? No. Did my colleagues go out and strike? No. Should they? No. Business was bad, my job, at the rate I was on, was unsustainable........ so I got my act together, and spent close to 18hrs a day for over a month, and got myself a new job..... not 10km from home like I used to, but 60km....... why could I find work so "easily" - well (1) I was motivated to do so, (2) I have worked hard and have a strong cv, (3) I worked my butt off to get the qualifications I have....... and (4) I was prepared to do what it takes to get employed......

Now I am guessing here, but I would say that alot of Aerlingus workers are simply unemployable...... they are essentially unskilled, underworked, underprodictive, and OVER PAID...... which iswhy they find themselves in the situation they are in: "There is also a stark productivity gap between Aer Lingus and Ryanair. Aer Lingus has around 4,000 staff and through October the airline carried 900,000 passengers. Ryanair's staff complement is 5,300 and they handled 5.3 million passengers last month. " That's about 5 times LESS productive........ and the party is now over, costs are increasing, and Aerlingus is now a sinking ship, along with many other so called "national carriers" in Europe...... so management have two choices.... go down with the ship OR drag the dinosaur that is Aerlingus into the 21st century.

Workers are faced with either accepting the golden parachute they are being offered, or else risking the entire company going to the wall and the lot of them loosing their jobs. We are in a recession. 1000's of people are out of work - 1000's of hard working people, who have been dumped, while the millionaire property developers and bankers keep their hard earned cash in the bank instead of investing (I wouldn't blame them, so would I).......

Its business.... its life..... and its necessary...... GET OVER IT........

I just hope Aerlingus stick to their guns this time, even if it means disruption to my placs..... be ruthless like O'Leary would...... in times like this, it is men like O'Leary that keep people in their jobs by running viable profitable businesses..... not muppets on the picket line getting their knickkers in a twist because the party is over...... when the players start givig the managers orders, then why is there management if the players effectively manage themselves and dictate terms......

matsil

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Simple solution to the problem:

1. Aer Lingus Management need to revoke the offer of voluntary redundancies, and replace it with mandatory redundancies.
2. Management need to revoke the offer of up to 9 weeks per year of service and replace it with the statutory minimums.
3. Make anybody who strikes redundant, replacing them all with out-sourced staff.
4. Revoke the security clearance of any former employees so that they have no right to be at the airport.
5. If/When the whingers start blockading the airport, then have the Gardai arrest them for disturbing the peace / preventing innocent law-abiding people from going about their daily business.

Problem solved -- Aer Lingus survive, and the selfish gits who are holding the country to ransom in their traditional Christmas spirit get what they deserve.

Well said Maggy....... couldn't agree more..... I'm all for the freedom to protest, but in fairness.
The one thing I would add is that Manion guy or who ever is in charge now is a bit of a spanner....... he knew they'd strike, we all did.... and yet he choose to rock the boat right before the xmas period..... which was obvisouly intentional because he knew it would sway the public to his side.....

Bluetonic

matsil wrote: »

which was obvisouly intentional because he knew it would sway the public to his side.....

I fail to see why he would want to sway the public to his side?

The public, or public sympathy won't decide anything in this.

If you were working for Aer Lingus you would be striking, along with every other poster here, thats the simple reality of the situation.

For the record business is not bad at Aer Lingus, they are a healthy money making company with a very large bank balance. Projected profits are down 20m this year but they are still making massive profits.

ongarite

Emm, they aren't making massive profits as you say.
They are projecting losses of 20m this year and the new air travel tax will cost them another 30m.

ixoy

Bluetonic wrote: »

If you were working for Aer Lingus you would be striking, along with every other poster here, thats the simple reality of the situation.

Is it? The poster just said they were in a similiar situation and didn't see the need to strike and they weren't offered nearly the great deals that Aer Lingus workers got. And, for the record, I was made redundant at Christmas a few years ago, didn't get such a cushy number, and never would have gone on strike even though my striking would never have inconvenienced people the way Aer Lingus would.

For the record business is not bad at Aer Lingus, they are a healthy money making company with a very large bank balance. Projected profits are down 20m this year but they are still making massive profits.

Not according to any news source that I've read, such as this or this.

MrEko

Bluetonic wrote: »

If you were working for Aer Lingus you would be striking, along with every other poster here, thats the simple reality of the situation.

Would we? I dont think I would. For Gods sake, we are facing a global recession, the country is in recession, a hell of a lot of us are not a very good position (I'm an apprentice chippy myself, my area of employment is more unstable than most). Anybody with a shred of common sense can see that companies have to do what they have to do to survive.

Aer Lingus is first and foremost a company, not a babysitter. They exist to turn a profit. The trade unions are a stubbern bunch who are as welcome to change as the Catholic Church.

As a guy who has had his ticket to Chicago booked since August to see a girlfriend he hasn't seen since then the very idea of strikes is making me sick to my stomach. I dont choose my holidays, I dont have the cash to re-book. This trip has kept me going over the past 4 months and now this.

I say f**k them. They want to screw with the ordinary consumer, an innocent party, they deserve any job losses.

Bluetonic

ongarite wrote: »

Emm, they aren't making massive profits as you say.
They are projecting losses of 20m this year and the new air travel tax will cost them another 30m.

I should of course said they have been making massive profits, any projected losses this year still leave them with a big pot in the bank

Of course a lot of people are talking through their pockets here and it's hard to reason with a person like that but given the opportunity to protect your well paid job the majority would take the same steps.

I have every sympathy for people who are having their trips inconvenienced but also understand where Aer Lingus employees are coming from.

ps I do not work for or have friends/family who work for Aer Lingus

maggy_thatcher

Bluetonic wrote: »

I should of course said they have been making massive profits, any projected losses this year still leave them with a big pot in the bank

Of course a lot of people are talking through their pockets here and it's hard to reason with a person like that but given the opportunity to protect your well paid job the majority would take the same steps.

I have every sympathy for people who are having their trips inconvenienced but also understand where Aer Lingus employees are coming from.

ps I do not work for or have friends/family who work for Aer Lingus

So if you had €50 in the bank, with an income of €20/year, you would continue your outlay of €40/year? Technically you could afford it for 1 year, after which they're deep in the red. If Aer Lingus don't trim their costs soon, the airline may as well just wind itself up; indeed it almost has a duty to its shareholders to shutdown early if there's no hope of recovery, so that they can at least redeem some of their investment back. Just because there is (some) money in the bank now doesn't mean that they shouldn't take immediate steps to ensure that expenditure doesn't exceed income.

Bluetonic

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

So if you had €50 in the bank, with an income of €20/year, you would continue your outlay of €40/year? Technically you could afford it for 1 year, after which they're deep in the red. If Aer Lingus don't trim their costs soon, the airline may as well just wind itself up; indeed it almost has a duty to its shareholders to shutdown early if there's no hope of recovery, so that they can at least redeem some of their investment back. Just because there is (some) money in the bank now doesn't mean that they shouldn't take immediate steps to ensure that expenditure doesn't exceed income.

Yes good point and I know they are projecting losses of 100m next year but that was when the price of a barrel of oil was 150usd. They've not reprojected losses to current prices.

What about a bit of give and take, sell off some of the assets they hold - landing slots, land leased from the DAA etc.., It's obviously pointless Aer Lingus holding onto these assets if they can't make profit from them. Management dropped profit making Shannon routes in favour of loss making Belfast routes, now due to this bad management decision staff must face the chop. Can they keep making business decisions and when they don't work out chop staff?

mickoneill30

Even if they do that there has to be something wrong with Aer Lingus if

1: They can get the crew so much cheaper from the US
2: Ryanair gets a much better return per member of staff.

It's not a government owned company anymore. Now they have shareholders to answer to. Oil has come down recently. That's not going to last forever. What happens when it goes back up?

maggy_thatcher

Bluetonic wrote: »

Yes good point and I know they are projecting losses of 100m next year but that was when the price of a barrel of oil was 150usd. They've not reprojected losses to current prices.

What about a bit of give and take, sell off some of the assets they hold - landing slots, land leased from the DAA etc.., It's obviously pointless Aer Lingus holding onto these assets if they can't make profit from them. Management dropped profit making Shannon routes in favour of loss making Belfast routes, now due to this bad management decision staff must face the chop. Can they keep making business decisions and when they don't work out chop staff?

1. If Aer Lingus were to sell its Heathrow landing slots, who do you think would benefit? All Irish people would effectively lose its primary transfer point to the rest of the world. Heathrow is a horrible place to change planes, but at the same time, with the frequency of planes, it is the most flexible. Also, they are probably the most profitable routes (have you ever seen an empty craft between LHR and DUB? Ever noticed how the "special fares" usually exclude that route, or else have it at a more expensive rate?)

2. Yes, they made a mistake with the Shannon routes; they were making a (small) profit on those, and they took a gamble on a bigger profit from the Belfast routes which didn't appear to happen yet. They estimated it would take a year to be profitable 13 months ago. Since then, the economy has taken a nose-dive, so who knows how long it would take to be profitable.

3. From what I've heard, they are also looking into cost-saving by reducing the land that they use in the airport; moving office staff out to business parks etc.

4. While the 100m loss was assuming a $150/barrel oil, it was also assuming a much higher passenger rate. Oil prices always drop over winter, and then rise during the "American Driving Season". As many analysts believe we are beyond peak oil, the only long-term direction for oil prices is up.

matsil

Bluetonic wrote: »

I fail to see why he would want to sway the public to his side?

The public, or public sympathy won't decide anything in this.

Bluetonic - would you not agree that as a PR exercise, it is better to have the public on your side, rather than against it? Aerlingus workers won't get alot of sympathy from anyone they speak to - which is bad for their morale and will make them "slightly" more conducive to accepting a deal than they would otherwise be if they had the public encouraging them......

Furthermore, from a business model point of view, it would seem a seems folly for Aerlingus management to alienate their customer base i.e. the travelling public > hence I think public opinion is of huge significance here.....

matsil

Bluetonic wrote: »

What about a bit of give and take, sell off some of the assets they hold ..... Can they keep making business decisions and when they don't work out chop staff?

I'm coming from an engineering background myself. If your home heating bill came to €2000 a year using an OLD oil boiler, and I said to you "look, I can replace your boiler, it will cost €1000, and it will reduce your heating costs to €1000, without compromising the warmth of your home", but then your neighbour comes along and says "sure why don't you just sell the contents of your shed, you hardly every use your DIY tools or that ladder, and you have'nt had a BBQ in years - that will pay for another years heating"....... what would you do..... get rid of the old ineffecient boiler, or sell those things which might be useful in the future, to prop up an obviously outdated system?

why should Aerlingus sell their assets..... who knows what their business strategy might be in the future, once they are a bit more effecient..... like RYANAIR!!!

Bluetonic

matsil wrote: »

Bluetonic - would you not agree that as a PR exercise, it is better to have the public on your side, rather than against it? Aerlingus workers won't get alot of sympathy from anyone they speak to - which is bad for their morale and will make them "slightly" more conducive to accepting a deal than they would otherwise be if they had the public encouraging them......

Of course I agree with you but where the majority of Aer Lingus workers live there is a degree of sympathy for them. There are a lot of businesses that rely on those Aer Lingus wages around North County Dublin.

It's hard to know how the rest of the general public view this. We've been here before with Aer Lingus and they've let people down, yet people still continue to book with them even though the threat of strike has been here for at least 6 months.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

maggy_thatcher

Bluetonic wrote: »

Of course I agree with you but where the majority of Aer Lingus workers live there is a degree of sympathy for them. There are a lot of businesses that rely on those Aer Lingus wages around North County Dublin.

That being the case, I would have thought that the businesses would not support the strike, as the longer it would last, the longer that these businesses would be without their source of revenue.

Bluetonic

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

That being the case, I would have thought that the businesses would not support the strike, as the longer it would last, the longer that these businesses would be without their source of revenue.

Why would they be without their source of revenue? Aer Lingus staff are still being paid if they go on strike.

maggy_thatcher

Bluetonic wrote: »

Why would they be without their source of revenue? Aer Lingus staff are still being paid if they go on strike.

As far as I was aware, they only got "strike pay" from the unions, not their regular wage from the company, which isn't anywhere near their regular wage. I would hope that EI would suspend *all* benefits for strikers (holidays become pro-rata based on days worked, wages docked, pension stopped, if any health benefits are around they are also immediately stopped, etc.).

matsil

Bluetonic wrote: »

Of course I agree with you but where the majority of Aer Lingus workers live there is a degree of sympathy for them. There are a lot of businesses that rely on those Aer Lingus wages around North County Dublin.

It's hard to know how the rest of the general public view this. We've been here before with Aer Lingus and they've let people down, yet people still continue to book with them even though the threat of strike has been here for at least 6 months.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I never fly with Aerlingus anymore unless I have to. Wehn travelling to the uk I go via a hub with Ryanair when I can. The only reason I am going through Aerlingus this time around is because I booked a consolidated ticket through British Airways to Thailand, ex. Cork and Aerlingus are their code share partners....... as far as I'm aware you cannot book a consolidated ticket through any other airline ex cork to thailand....... if anyone knows of one, please let me know......

youcancallmeal

matsil wrote: »

I never fly with Aerlingus anymore unless I have to. Wehn travelling to the uk I go via a hub with Ryanair when I can. The only reason I am going through Aerlingus this time around is because I booked a consolidated ticket through British Airways to Thailand, ex. Cork and Aerlingus are their code share partners....... as far as I'm aware you cannot book a consolidated ticket through any other airline ex cork to thailand....... if anyone knows of one, please let me know......

What does code share mean?