Glow plug igniter max voltage

workaccount

Hi,
I got a glow plug igniter there yesterday and I want to use it with a 6 volt 1500 mah battery. Do I need a regulator to bring the voltage down to 1.5v or will 6 volt be ok?

Thanks.

T-Maxx

6v will instantly blow the glowplug. Why not just get a rechargeable 1.2v cell of the correct size and be done with it?

coolwings

You could get high resistance wire which will drop the voltage.
Measure and cut a suitable length, and you will have 1.5V at the glowclip.
It was done this way for years before nicad glowstarts were thought of.

workaccount

Hi Coolwings. I notice in your specter thread that you used some sort of black intermeditary box between battery and igniter.

What's that called?

coolwings

That was a glow plug driver.
A solid state version of a power panel, but very compact.
It transforms 12V down to 1.5V.
The bigger (flight box) power panels have an adjustable glow temp function, but the compact (car box type) power panels don't have this, just a fixed setting. It was handy because it was both small and it had the ability to "crank up" the glowplug in a difficult engine.
I lent it to a pal and he melted it with reverse polarity from the 12V battery. Thanks for the reminder as I intended to get a replacement and forgot, now it's on my shopping list again. :-)

workaccount

I might just go for the high resistance wire. Any easy way to find out how much I'll need?

lotus791

ripmax do an adjustable voltage box with a glow start on it .. its small and runs of 15v max so 6 is ok costs about a tenner ....i use them on my starter boxes and im on 14.8v lipo

workaccount

lotus791 wrote: »

ripmax do an adjustable voltage box with a glow start on it .. its small and runs of 15v max so 6 is ok costs about a tenner ....i use them on my starter boxes and im on 14.8v lipo

Anyway you can link to that somewhere. I can't find it on the ripmax site.

lotus791

mmm lol thats cause its fastrax i was close hehe
http://www.microtechracing.com//product_info.asp?name=FASTRAX+GLOW+STARTER+FOR+12V&ID=3204&Pcat=NITRO%20ENGINES&cat=GLOW+STARTERS

there ya go

workaccount

lotus791 wrote: »

mmm lol thats cause its fastrax i was close hehe
http://www.microtechracing.com//product_info.asp?name=FASTRAX+GLOW+STARTER+FOR+12V&ID=3204&Pcat=NITRO%20ENGINES&cat=GLOW+STARTERS

there ya go

Cheers but that's for 12v.

lotus791

it will work i believe with any voltage below 15 as its just a variable switch

workaccount

I was speaking to a guy that said having connected that with 6v it would reduce the voltage to way under 1.5. It would be the equivalent to a flat standard igniter.

I'm thinking I'll have to just go 12v now.

I might just go with something like this http://cgi.ebay.ie/12V-3700mAh-SC-COMPACT-NiMH-rechargeable-battery-pack_W0QQitemZ360095100314QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item360095100314&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting

Reason I want to get something like this is so I can see what mah is going into it when it's being charged and to be able to cycle etc.
Standard glow igniters don't let you do this.

lotus791

gimme a day or so and i will measure the voltage for you ..... if your going 12v a 5amph 12v battery is similar size and half the price and an ordinary car battery charger will recharge it

workaccount

lotus791 wrote: »

gimme a day or so and i will measure the voltage for you ..... if your going 12v a 5amph 12v battery is similar size and half the price and an ordinary car battery charger will recharge it

Is that a lead acid battery your referring to? (like a mini car battery)

T-Maxx

Why not just get a rechargeable 1.2v cell of the correct size and be done with it?

coolwings

Hi T-Maxx - I just took your advice.

Ive just set up a nice system to replace my old more expensive (but neat) solid state one, but this is even simpler.
A 7000mAh nimh E cell (like a D but greater in length) with a battery "bridge tab" soldered onto each end.
Clip on the glowstart lead (with the crocodile clips that come on it) .
Viola! A 1.2 V glow that lasts for a very long time!

It's handy it being a 1.2v nimh because I am able charge it with any charger that does 1 cell, even the cheapies that come in the package with the glowstart sets will do, if you cut the glowpluggie thing off the wires and pop on two clips of any kind to grip the bridge tabs on the 7000 cell.
For you kids who want to try this at home, the black wire with the white stripe is the "red = +" wire. (I always liked the White Stripes ... Dum. Dum-dum-dum dum-dum dum ... Im gonna fight em off .... A seven nation army couldnt hold me back ....)
Explanatory photo to follow .....

coolwings

This is it.

Here is the high capacity cell with tabs soldered on.

And here it is ready for use with the clip lead clipped on.

Simple, durable, goes a long time.

Only rule .... don't toss it in a bag with steel spanners which could short out the terminals. First pop it into a little plastic bag, or wrap in some cloth first, then the copper ends are covered and it can't self discharge.

I just made 5 more so Patrick will show them and see if local modellers want this alternative.

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

This is it.

Here is the high capacity cell with tabs soldered on.

And here it is ready for use with the clip lead clipped on.

Simple, durable, goes a long time.

Only rule .... don't toss it in a bag with steel spanners which could short out the terminals. First pop it into a little plastic bag, or wrap in some cloth first, then the copper ends are covered and it can't self discharge.

I just made 5 more so Patrick will show them and see if local modellers want this alternative.

Cool and very cost effective. What are the clips called that you soldered to the side of the battery?

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

Cool and very cost effective. What are the clips called that you soldered to the side of the battery?

They're the flat copper "bridge" connectors that are used to join up a "ladder" battery pack.

loopingfred

Hi,

Definitively one of the best way to have a glow plug driver !


Here is mine, at least 12 years old :eek:



This is a 4000mah nicad cell, one of the biggest you were able to find at the time (was from an old emergency exit light blocks:) ) and was lasting all week end, and more, without any problem !

Contacts are made with a bunch of soldered copper wires... Ah well, I was young :P

Just gave it a charge.. And it's still working !! :eek:

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

They're the flat copper "bridge" connectors that are used to join up a "ladder" battery pack.

Very hard to source those cadnica's on the net.

coolwings

The nimh equivalent of the same size is 9000mAh, and available. But nicad retains it's charge better in storage which particularly suits the idea of a rechargeable battery for lying on the toolbox remaining full.
I understand that nicads are not being manufactured now for environmental reasons, so that means swing to nimh is pretty much completed. Anyway lipoly has already reached a standard where it is robust enough for general use, if not at quite so low a cost as nimh or nicad. Though you can't get a 1.2V lipo!
Those were the last of that particular cell in our stores, and they suited the job of a high capacity glowstart so I took out the last box of 5 and adapted them. They will go out (together with chargers) with beginner kits over the next week unless someone particularly asks for one separately.

workaccount

Will these do the trick? http://cgi.ebay.ie/GP-Rechargeable-D-Size-R20-9000-mAh-NiMH-Battery-x2_W0QQitemZ330285987182QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM?hash=item330285987182&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1300|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Can't find soldering tabs anywhere on the net!

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

Can't find soldering tabs anywhere on the net!

That link is Sterling18+ you can do a lot better.
Call 01 4928776. Ask Patrick (the Green Hobby shop manager) to post some out in an envelope. Or one of the batteries I made up with the tabs already on it for EUR15.xx.

workaccount

Hmmm I've just been reviewing my goal for this project which has been to provide a way to monitor battery performance, view charging stats and ability to cycle the battery.

I'm not sure what happened with my glow plug igniter I got with my truggy back in April but it doesn't work at all at the moment. Due to extreme frustration at lack of transparency I ditched it in favour of this idea.

So my goal has not really been to extend battery lifetime which may become more important in the future. Due to this reason I have decided to make use of the large number of AA batteries at home.

I'm going to solder wire directly to them with bullet connectors to connect to my igniter and charger. I think I will do this to two batteries - each will be about 2300mah I think. Should do for the time being anyway! Thanks for your help.

I'm not making it an easy job for you to convert me into a green hobby and model customer am I?

By the way t-maxx - I wasn't ignoring your original advice to get a 1.2v cell. I actually thought you were saying "Why not just get another standard igniter?" I never thought that you were referring to something like coolwings has done.

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

... I'm not sure what happened with my glow plug igniter I got with my truggy back in April but it doesn't work at all at the moment ....

If that was included in a "lowest price" truggy outfit you can dump it into toxic waste disposal, it's dead already. If you got a good charger (can do singe cells) cycling it will get back maybe 50% of it's capacity for a while....

workaccount wrote: »

... Due to this reason I have decided to make use of the large number of AA batteries at home ... I'm going to solder wire directly to them with bullet connectors to connect to my igniter and charger. I think I will do this to two batteries - each will be about 2300mah I think.....

Small AA cells don't like high temps. There is not much mass to absorb the heat as it mkigrates away from the soldered area. So work fast with a hot iron, get it done, and lift the iron quickly. Then place a refrigerated pad on that area to pull the heat out.
Also an AA can't deliver anywhere near the power that a C or D cell can. You might get it to work with 2 AAs in parallel if they are a top brand (Sanyo, Panasonic, GP, KAN). But if they are of another make, it may take 3 AAs to have a glowplug glow for more than say 30 seconds without some brownout due to voltage fade.

workaccount wrote: »

... I'm not making it an easy job for you to convert me into a green hobby and model customer am I? .....

Not what I am here for. This (time I spend here) is answering not just you but many other modellers too. It is putting something back and advancing Irish modelling expertise in general, which needs to be done. Not many seem willing to do that. Unpaid instructors in clubs also do this ...

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

Small AA cells don't like high temps. There is not much mass to absorb the heat as it mkigrates away from the soldered area. So work fast with a hot iron, get it done, and lift the iron quickly. Then place a refrigerated pad on that area to pull the heat out.
Also an AA can't deliver anywhere near the power that a C or D cell can. You might get it to work with 2 AAs in parallel if they are a top brand (Sanyo, Panasonic, GP, KAN). But if they are of another make, it may take 3 AAs to have a glowplug glow for more than say 30 seconds without some brownout due to voltage fade.

My batteries are GP but I don't understand.....if a c or d is 1.2v and an AA is 1.2v how does the larger cell sustain voltage better over load?

coolwings

You are confusing "high capacity" with "high discharge".
High capacity cells are only useful for electronic items with tiny loads, and a torch flashlight is pushing them hard. They turn up in cheapo crap models that can just about move.
High discharge cells can run an arc welder. We pay more for them. We run our models on them if we know what works. They drive powerful motors. In general the "fatter" cells are high discharge, the "skinny" cells are high capacity, low discharge. It's the internal resistance again. Good cells cost more and have lower internal resistance.

AA vs C: Same voltage ... 1.2V yes.
But not the same volume, or internal surface area of the components.

Try to imagine we are measuring the amount of jam in a swiss roll.
For the most layers do we design a skinny swiss roll or a fat one... which has more layers and jam? The construction of rechargeable batteries has a little to do with this simplified concept.

Back to the batteries and summing up:
An AA 2000mah weighs 25 - 30g but a sub C 2000mah weighs 50g.
The sub C cell has twice as much active ingredients.
The sub C can give 40 - 50 amps.
The AA of similar capacity can do 2 amps.

workaccount

So 2 or 3 aa's would be have a maximum discharge rate of 6 amps. How many amps would the igniter need for 30 seconds on 30 seconds off I wonder without heating the crap out of them?

coolwings

Two good AA should do what you wish.
A GP AA or Sanyo AA of about 2500 capacity will do 2 amps continuous and about 4 amps for 30s.
It's over a year since I discharged nimh AAs with the meter running, so these are approx figures.

The question is what is the glow like after 10s? Is it bright enough or not?
You can test with wire one cell and a glowplug and tell us what you find.

loopingfred

Hi,

You can also plug the AA batteries in parallel.

Still 1.2 volts, but you double/triple/quadriple and so on... the capacity.

Not an expert in this area, but that is what I will do with a bunch of cells.

Fred

workaccount

Right just tested it with one cell there and it's sound! Glow plug lights right up and no brownout after running it from one cell for about a minute.

So that means if my onecell is capable of lighting up the glow plug nice at 2 amps what happens if I stick two aa's together? Will the glow plug draw the 4 amps and give me the same amount of time as one cell ie. 2300mah! or will it just draw the 2 amps still and give me 4600mah. (twice as long lasting)


Also this cell I was testing with isn't fully charged. I think when they are fully charged they go up to 1.4v - I wonder could 1.4v damage my glow plug. When they discharge they go under 1v aswell so I suppose this could be a problem also.

loopingfred

Putting the cells in // wil increase the capacity...

So :
1 cell is 2300mah
2 cells in // is 4600Mah and so on...

The "tricky" bit is the charging...

What we use to do a while ago, is charge the batteries like is 1 cell with the matching capacity (for the total of cells).
And from time to time, to balance all the cells, charge the cells individually, one by one...
I was not very good at keeping track of all that, so I charged the cells one by one maybe once a year... Never had a problem.. And no fancy electronic chargers at the time, all that with a really basic one...

loopingfred

OOppss, forgot, 1.4 volts will not blow your plug.

1.5v will still be ok

coolwings

workaccount wrote: »

.... or will it just draw the 2 amps still and give me 4600mah. (twice as long lasting)...

Correctamundo !

If the cells are different sizes leave the tabs in such a way as to be suitable to charge each one individually.
If they are the same size, you can charge your parallel pack as a whole. In this case a balance is beneficial like Fred said.
An alternative to a balance is to leave it on trickle charge (as opposed to delta peak charge) at 1/10C and a low cell will be able to catch up while on trickle. (only works with nimh/nicad)

workaccount

loopingfred wrote: »

Putting the cells in // wil increase the capacity...

So :
1 cell is 2300mah
2 cells in // is 4600Mah and so on...

The "tricky" bit is the charging...

What we use to do a while ago, is charge the batteries like is 1 cell with the matching capacity (for the total of cells).
And from time to time, to balance all the cells, charge the cells individually, one by one...
I was not very good at keeping track of all that, so I charged the cells one by one maybe once a year... Never had a problem.. And no fancy electronic chargers at the time, all that with a really basic one...

I wonder does it matter which setup I use




I would prefer setup 1. I was thinking I'd have to join the batteries with some sort of battery bar or battery bridge like coolwings soldered to his cadnica above.

Obviously then though I would never be able to charge them as individual cells. Even with setup 2 though I would have to stick them together somehow which would prevent me from being able to charge individually.

I can't think of anyway to stick them together as to be able to seperate them. It would be nice to have this option. EDIT: Just thinking actually of pulling the battery box from something like radio or something might work - I recall these to be cheapo plastic usually though - be nice to have something tougher. Something like this maybe - http://www.polycase.com/images/cache/vm-batt-category--.jpg or http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/full/cl151118.jpg

The trickle charge is good but the rate of charge would be so low it could turn out to be very frustrating.

loopingfred

Setup 1 is the correct one.
all the + together, all the - together.

Check with the voltmeter at the end anyway.

To join the batteries, you can use wire ! A 2cm piece of wire, remove 5mm or the insulator at each end and solder that on the battery.
Glue the batteries together with hot glue (better) or cyano.
Easy and cheap. I should have a picture somewhere if you don't see what I mean.

For the balance, you can solder an extra wire on each cell, but I will not really worry about the balancing, this is for a plug igniter

workaccount

loopingfred wrote: »

Setup 1 is the correct one.
all the + together, all the - together.

Check with the voltmeter at the end anyway.

To join the batteries, you can use wire ! A 2cm piece of wire, remove 5mm or the insulator at each end and solder that on the battery.
Glue the batteries together with hot glue (better) or cyano.
Easy and cheap. I should have a picture somewhere if you don't see what I mean.

For the balance, you can solder an extra wire on each cell, but I will not really worry about the balancing, this is for a plug igniter

That picture would be handy.

loopingfred

Sorry, delayed answer.. Bit busy this week end !

So, here you go... The wire :



You can glue the batteries with hot glue... Neat and strong !



And the wire, soldered on the pack (4cells here...)...



Easy to do, strong and reliable too !
You can solder another wire for individual charge at this stage, same lenght as the first one, or longer if you want...

Hope this help

workaccount

I picked up a battery box this evening similar to this one http://www.mutr.co.uk/images/DSCN0247.jpg but for only 2 aa's.

Do you see the connectors on the top left of the batt box in the picture? My box has the same connectors. It's the same connector as would go on one of these 9 volts. http://www.legacyhomemedical.com/imgs/406/Enegizer%209v.jpg
I suppose the ideal situation would be a connector that fit's onto that battery box. I saw some of these in Maplin but the cables coming from them were too small - tiny infact.

Anybody know where I could get these with 16awg on the net? The other option is to solder wires to that battery box directly - Not sure how I would go about this yet.

coolwings

Hmmm ...
Solder tabs onto the battery box end? That could be done.
Buy cheap battery boxes with "good" cable? Probably available somewhere on the planet if you google all night.

But: Watch you don't melt too much plastic while soldering it. That type of plastic has a low temp it distorts shape at.
I have rewired those battery boxes in the past - it is difficult to solder the steel neatly and not damage the plastic.

And:You will also have to cut the connections at the other end, and rewire it as a parallel not a series connection. Because the one in the picture is an inline wired battery box,and it puts out 4 cells x 1.5V = 6V, a similar 2 cell version would have 2 x 1.5V = 3V. Both will pop your 1.5V glowplugs instantly.

Happy soldering.

Does anyone else think 41 posts on how to heat a glowplug is excessive?
Still requesting yet more advice on such a simple topic, while at the same time ignoring the good advice already given willingly by many different helpful posters above seems a little strange to me, and somewhat dismissive of other peoples freely given help and knowledge.
You are welcome to ask questions of the members of the forum, and we are very willing to help, many times, but we are aware of when our help goes unheeded, and therefore was a wasted effort giving it.

I'm finished with this thread.

Next thread: how to repair glowplugs .... Coming soon :rolleyes:

workaccount

coolwings wrote: »

Hmmm ...
Solder tabs onto the battery box end? That could be done.

But: Watch you don't melt too much plastic while doing it. That type of plastic has a low temp it distorts shape at.
I have rewired those battery boxes in the past - it is difficult to solder the steel neatly and not damage the plastic.

And:You will also have to cut the connections at the other end, and rewire it as a parallel not a series connection. Because the one in the picture is an inline wired battery box,and it puts out 4 cells x 1.5V = 6V, a similar 2 cell version would have 2 x 1.5V = 3V. Both will pop your 1.5V glowplugs instantly.

Happy soldering.

Does anyone else think 41 posts on how to heat a glowplug is excessive?
Asking for yet more advice on such a simple topic, while at the same time ignoring the good advice given willingly by many different helpful people already seems a little strange to me.
I'm finished with this thread.

Next thread: how to repair glowplugs .... Coming soon :rolleyes:

What advice have I been ignoring? :eek:

I've been taking on advice and coming to the best solution for me. First I thought the only solution was a 12v, then figured out I could use one cell. Then decided that aa's would be most suitable for me and then decided that I wanted to be able to charge them individually so figured a battery box was most suitable. I think that there is probably plenty of people out there who would be interested in the same solution as I have come up with.

btw I don't think that the next thread would have been "how to repair glowplugs" because I knew the way that box is wired it will double the voltage as per looping fred's advice.


I'm not sure I'll ever feel like asking for advice on this forum again. Thanks very much.