gaelscoil or not??

mrtayto

hi all,

we've been debating tthe pros and cons of gaelscoils vs primary schools.just looking for opinions on both.

thanx

peanuthead

i could be wrong but I feel that I notice children who go to gaelscoils suffer with their English spelling/grammar alot.

byhookorbycrook

• studies show that childen who are bi-linugual from an early age pick up other languages more easily later.
• children in gaelscoileanna may be a little slower initially with English reading/spelling due to both languages but have been shown to outstrip performance of non-gaelscoil children by older classes

penny37

Children in gaelscoileanna are in smaller classes than children in English speaking schools.

byhookorbycrook

penny37 wrote: »

Children in gaelscoileanna are in smaller classes than children in English speaking schools.

not true , unless the school is just starting.

professore

penny37 wrote: »

Children in gaelscoileanna are in smaller classes than children in English speaking schools.

False, my daughter is in a class of 35 ... and that's before the cutbacks in January.

By the way I have 3 kids in a Gaelscoil and would highly recommend it ... kids are a bit slower to read and write than their peers but soon catch up. By the end of primary school they should be at a standard to breeze through LC honours Irish. That alone is a huge advantage. It's also true about picking up other languages more easily. Having lived abroad I don't understand the fear people have here of giving their kids exposure to more than one language from an early age - this is common in many European countries.

penny37

No- the staffing schedule - ie the numbers that you can appoint a new teacher at- is lower in gaelscoileanna that English speaking schools. However, a principle is not allowed to appoint a new teacher unless they have held onto that number for a year. So the numbers of teachers in a school is based on the roll from the previous September

byhookorbycrook

http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/Staffing/StaffingSchedules/

As I said, it is lower as a school starts, tenth teacher equals out.

penny37

yes but you need a student level of 259 before it levels out - that make a huge difference in a small school.

dlofnep

I am in an Irish conversational group, and all of those in it who have sent their children to gaelscoilenna have nothing but great things to say about it. Their English will not be affected. Come secondary, they will be on par with any other school and their Irish, 10 times better. Extra points for the leaving too which could come in handy for college.

Baybay

It can however take children from gaelscoileanna a little longer to come to terms with second level sciences and maths.

byhookorbycrook

Baybay wrote: »

It can however take children from gaelscoileanna a little longer to come to terms with second level sciences and maths.

?Source??

Baybay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

?Source??

Experience of a relative.

byhookorbycrook

In most gaelscoileanna terms for maths are done both in English and Irish, as many children do not go on to secondary in Irish. Many terms for science in secondary are new to all students,except for what has been covered in primary and again most Gaelscoileanna would give terms in both languages.

dlofnep

Baybay wrote: »

Experience of a relative.

One person hardly presents a case for it. They might have not excelled in maths or science regardless of what school they went to. I'd save your scaremongering until you have substantial sources.

Baybay

dlofnep wrote: »

One person hardly presents a case for it. They might have not excelled in maths or science regardless of what school they went to. I'd save your scaremongering until you have substantial sources.

6 As & 5 Bs in the JC

BoozyBabe

So, they got 6 A's & 5 B's 3 years into their secondary education & you're saying the Gaelscoil held them back, & that they were slower than their peers as a result.

Why? cos they didn't get 11 A's?

I'm not being smart. I've just seen this thread. I'm not sure what case you're making.

I've just relearned Irish myself, 11 years after leaving school. I've just a passion for the language now that my children will be going to a gaelscoil. It's such a beautiful language

Baybay

BoozyBabe wrote: »

So, they got 6 A's & 5 B's 3 years into their secondary education & you're saying the Gaelscoil held them back, & that they were slower than their peers as a result.

Why? cos they didn't get 11 A's?

I'm not being smart. I've just seen this thread. I'm not sure what case you're making.

At no point did I say the Gaelscoil held them back or that they were slower than their peers. The OP asked for an opinion, I gave one, based on an experience.

I said it may take a little longer to come to terms with maths and sciences. I did not say it was impossible or even difficult, but as you've read the thread, no doubt you've noticed that.

To clarify, the child to whom I referred is very bright and I just felt that the OP, having asked what people thought, might be interested to know that this child perceived himself to be struggling during the first few weeks. As most things in the early days of secondary can be daunting for some children, and as parents we usually try to make the transition as painless as possible, I thought it might have been a worthwhile piece of information.

BoozyBabe

JESUS!! :eek:
I DID say I was only trying to find out where you were coming from!
You read that part too, didn't you!!!!

The way I read it was people were saying Gaelscoils were great, & you came in saying it takes them longer to come to terms with Science & maths, & without further elaborating, in the context of this thread would imply that you were saying your relative struggled.
I think that's a fair assumption for anyone reading this thread to make.

Then you back it up with the fact that they got 6 As & 5 Bs & I just got very confused as to what point you were trying to make.

As I said, I was not trying to be smart.

Now you've said they struggled for only the 1st few weeks. I think all children struggle for the 1st few weeks of secondary, regardless of what type of primary school they went to. Secondary is a big change, & in the grand scheme of 5-6 years, struggling for the 1st couple of weeks isn't going to have a huge detriment on their overall education, as your relative absolutely proved.

If anything else, they've actually disproved the claim that children in gaelscoileanna struggle in non-Irish subjects, & fair play to him / her for the grades.

Baybay

BoozyBabe wrote: »

you came in saying it takes them longer to come to terms with Science & maths, & without further elaborating, in the context of this thread would imply that you were saying your relative struggled.
I think that's a fair assumption for anyone reading this thread to make.

Then you back it up with the fact that they got 6 As & 5 Bs & I just got very confused as to what point you were trying to make.

I think all children struggle for the 1st few weeks of secondary

Boozybabe, I made a point which dlopnef asked me to source and when I cited a personal experience, was accused of scaremongering & the notion that my relative probably really wasn't that able to begin with, which was why I posted the JC results. This was where you came in, if I'm right, which has lead us to this point, a million miles probably from where the OP had hoped!!:)

At the risk of raising further ire, if an opinion based on an experience scares someone, then an open forum may not be for them, a point that perhaps I should have made to the aforementioned poster rather than as part of a reply to you.

Anyway, yes, perhaps I could have elaborated more to begin with and yes, children do struggle anyway with secondary. What I clumsily tried to opine was that if they are likely to be challenged anyway, is it really necessary to add to it.

Ok, I'm bowing out of this thread now. Enjoy your newfound Irish, Boozybabe & I look forward to coming across you on another thread!

byhookorbycrook

MrTayto, most important: visit any and all schools you are considering, get a feel for the place, see if it is a happy place and well run. Staff in gaelscoileanna tend to be younger and as they have applied to teach specifically through Irish have a passion for it, which children soon pick up. Ask to meet the principal(by appt), you'll see v quickly
if he/she is the kind of person you can warm to and s/he sets the tone for the school. Word of warning, many Gaelscoileanna are very oversubscribed, ring the school see what the enrolement policy is an get name down asap, you can always take the name off the list later.

naidheachdair

I can only speak from the point of view of Scots Gaelic rather than Irish, but if the option to go to an Irish medium school is there I'd grab it. Going to a bilingual school gives many children an aptitude for other languages they might want to learn in later life, and as noted above the teachers can often be younger and more enthusiastic than their monolingual counterparts. A second language also opens up all kinds of employment doors. And these Celtic languages are all on the up--more and more younger people are becoming interested in them. I personally wish I'd had the opportunity to go.

dlofnep

Naidheachdair - Are you a fluent Scots-Gaelic speaker? I've studied up on it a small bit.. I can understand a great portion of it, due to it's similarities with Gaeilge. I know it's not fairing well, or at least wasn't in Scotland - Is there any revival movement there at the moment for it (assuming you're in Scotland).

mrtayto

are there fees associated with gaelscoils?

byhookorbycrook

Gaelscoileanna are "ordinary" primary schools, ie not fee paying or private, but like every primary school in the country have to fundraise to keep the doors open!! And folllowing the budget, except every school to be raising even more!

naidheachdair

dlofnep wrote: »

Naidheachdair - Are you a fluent Scots-Gaelic speaker? I've studied up on it a small bit.. I can understand a great portion of it, due to it's similarities with Gaeilge. I know it's not fairing well, or at least wasn't in Scotland - Is there any revival movement there at the moment for it (assuming you're in Scotland).

I'm not fluent, I'm learning, although I do aim to be fluent at some point! That's why I wish I'd had the option to go to bilingual school; it would have improved things no end.

Things are improving, slowly but surely. A BBC TV channel similar to TG4 (but satellite only) started a couple of months ago and interest in language courses at places like Sabhal Mor Ostaig (the only Gaelic university) is rising steadily.

Some of the Gaelic-medium schools, particularly in primary, are becoming oversubscribed as (some might argue pushy, middle-class) parents realise the benefits of bilingual education so there's a big campaign for teacher recruitment going on.

The money and the government will are certainly there in Scotland, but whether it'll be a success will only be known in twenty years or so.

byhookorbycrook

naidheachdair wrote: »

Things are improving, slowly but surely. A BBC TV channel similar to TG4 (but satellite only) started a couple of months ago and interest in language courses at places like Sabhal Mor Ostaig (the only Gaelic university) is rising steadily.

.

Was at sabhal mór ostaig a few yrs back for a snoop, I spoke Irish, man there spoke gaelic, we managed to understand each other

naidheachdair

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Was at sabhal mór ostaig a few yrs back for a snoop, I spoke Irish, man there spoke gaelic, we managed to understand each other

They're really closely related, like Dutch and Flemish. It's only certain words, spelling and some pronunciation that's different. They're both more useful languages than you might think!

cmcsoft

Friends of mine are thinking about sending their child to the Gaelscoil. Personally I think it's a good idea but they feel that some subjects, especially English and Maths could be a little more difficult for kids who go there. Now I have no experience first hand so I could get lashed for saying this. I'm just wondering is this the case?

meep

I've spoken with some secondary teachers and some students who hold up the idea that kids from irish language schools have some difficulty at second level with english terminology in some subjects.

I agree this is anecdotal but when we were deciding on schooling for our tots a few years ago, weighing everthing up, we decided against Irish schools.

And actually, the amount of Irish our daughter is picking up in 'normal' primary school is amazing, though I think that's down to individual teachers as much as anything else.

Plus it's getting more and more difficut to get in to Irish Schools. I know in our local, it's nigh on impossible now. Waiting lists apply and I've heard that it's necessry to attend a particular pre-school (irish) to have much hope.

luckat

The stars of my son's school were kids who'd done primary in gaelscoileanna. They were the high attainers in both science and humanities subjects.

It may be because most of the parents who send their kids to gaelscoilenna are highly motivated, and involved in their kids' homework, etc.

In this particular case, an unusual proportion of the parents were teachers - always an advantage to kids.

cmcsoft

That poses another question. my friends reckon they're fairly good at Irish but don't know if they would be confident enough to be able to help the kids with their homework through Irish.....

meep

luckat wrote: »

It may be because most of the parents who send their kids to gaelscoilenna are highly motivated, and involved in their kids' homework, etc.

And by implication those who send kids to normal schools are not and couldn't be bothered?

cool username

I went to a gaelscoil and an all-Irish secondary school and am now a primary school teacher. I've taught in Gaelscoileanna and in all-english speaking schools. Being taught through Irish will do absolutely no harm to children, english may suffer slightly initially due to the fact that children are becoming bilingual but will not continue to suffer. I found children at senior infants level in a gaelscoil to be on par with children in an english speaking schools in all subjects but obviously hugely advanced in Irish. Claims that learning through Irish would cause difficulties in other subjects is completely unfounded. It may be a problem with the school but it is not a problem with the Irish language.

ProperDeadly

Gaelscoils are definately the way to go
I went to one myself, and the benefits of it in secondary school (English speaking) were huge.

Also, out of a class of 35 , 3 got 600 points in their leaving:)

SarcasticFairy

I don't know anything about implications on other subjects and such, but as a 6th year trying to do higher level leaving cert irish, I would love to have gone to a gael-scoil. It would definitely take away a lot of stress.
I have a friend who is a gaelgoir, and his english has not suffered at all. He can speak both languages fluently and is miles ahead of his whole class in Irish now...

exiot

I went to a Gaelscoil myself and then continued onto a Gaelcholáiste, in relation to the pupil having difficulty with English to begin with thats not true at all. The school may be based on irish principal but they put just a little less emphasis on English as they want to keep all students speaking Irish from 9 - 3 each day.

As for the future when he/she reaches the Leaving Cert, the benefit of being fluent in Irish is huge, may not be important in later life but getting those extra points for nothing helps and lets you concentrate on the other 6 subjects you have to deal with. I did feck all study for the Irish LC and got a B1 for nothing, handy job.

bcdillon

I wouldn't waste your time with Gaelscoil.
Your kids would be better off going to local national school.
Here they will also learn Irish! And make friends easier. Because children going to gaelscoil are coming from wider areas you will find that after school your child will have greater difficulty making friends locally. Also many Gaelscoils are located in temporary accomadation and working conditions for students and teachers can be testing.

An Bradán Feasa

bcdillon wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time with Gaelscoil.
Your kids would be better off going to local national school.
Here they will also learn Irish! And make friends easier. Because children going to gaelscoil are coming from wider areas you will find that after school your child will have greater difficulty making friends locally. Also many Gaelscoils are located in temporary accomadation and working conditions for students and teachers can be testing.

And this is all based on.....?

byhookorbycrook

Oral Irish is now going to be worth 40% of the marks for Irish, so Gaelscoileanna will now be more in demand than ever.

dolliemix

bcdillon wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time with Gaelscoil.
Your kids would be better off going to local national school.
Here they will also learn Irish! And make friends easier. Because children going to gaelscoil are coming from wider areas you will find that after school your child will have greater difficulty making friends locally. Also many Gaelscoils are located in temporary accomadation and working conditions for students and teachers can be testing.

This post is ridiculous.......I would definitely recommend a Gaelscoil. Parental support is hugely important in a Gaelscoil and adds to the spirit and sense of community within a school. This, imo, is important as an educational experience for any child irrespective of how academic the child is. Children should not be underestimated....while it may seem hard initially to cope with the all Irish surroundings.....they adapt much quicker than adults......they don't know any different and its a matter of survival. Also, the staff and teachers of Gaelscoileanna are qualified and experienced and are sympathetic and understanding of the new student to adapt, the same as all schools.

bigdaddyliamo

I had both my primary and secondary education through Irish, so my opinion may be slightly biased!
My Wife, who cannot speak Irish, was open to the idea of sending our children to an Irish speaking school. This was something I wanted to happen as I have a deep love for the language. We put the kids names down for a few schools and got accepted for a small Gaelscoil in the area. We went and spoke with the principle and she sold the place with her entusiasm and drive. Fast forward a few years and I can say with no doubt that we could not have found a better school to educate our children. The effort and commitment shown by the various teachers over the years have humbled me. I used to think the word vocation held little weight, but no longer. The Teachers choose to teach in this medium which means they are motivated and children benefit greatly from this. My son is in a class of Sixteen and my Daughter is in a class of 21. My Son was diagnosed with ADHD early on and the help and support we recieved from the whole school community was overwhelming. As a result of the extra attention and support our Son is now doing as well as his peers and his condition has receeded to the point where it is hardly an issue.
I know our situation is an unusual one, but I would strongly advocate for sending your child to a gaelscoil, whatever you decide, good luck!

anxie

OK, first up I am not trying to antagonise anyone, I am just a bit frustrated with the black and white opinions posted thus far on this topic.
I personally want to send my kids to a gaelscoil, I am very keen on it and have spoken to some neighbours about the difficulties and concerns that they have encountered with their children.
It is disapointing that the conversation here is so polar and non discussive. An Bradán Feasa seems to snap at any negative comment posted (no offensive meant Bradán).
Here's what I am being told:
Two members of my other half's family went to a gaelscoil and both have genuine concerns and negative views about my wishes to send our son to the local GS (not the one they went to).
One of them left the school because she was so unhappy about being unable to keep up with her friends who were at English speaking schools. She feels that it damaged the rest of her academic experience as she had to re learn so much through English.
The other is far more academic and stayed on and graduated from a GS.
As an adult he says that he still gets confused by some perfectly ordinary historical figures and placenames because they were given exclusively Gaelic terms for nouns that are not ever referred to in Irish in everyday life. He feels that if I go ahead and send our first to a GS that I must put in extra time to "compensate" for the Gaeilge only environment that he will be educated in.
Generally he does not think it is a good decision, though I think that he does not value it as much as I would- but he's lived it and his argument is stronger than mine...

anyway, that's what I am hearing, I am still on the side of sending him to the GS, but I have to listen to what my relatives who know better have to say about it.

It would be helpful if more people who went to a GS would give their experience like bigdaddyliamo has, rather than just say it was great, I expect it to give us some challenges, so I want to hear about that and not that it's all fab and stuff.

anx

dolliemix

No educational experience is all 'fab' and I dont think anybody was trying to say that Gaelscoileanna were all 'fab'. Infact most people will tell you that it is more challenging in many ways in a Gaelscoil but that is what education is about - being challenged and rising to it. The fact that a young person can succeed in a Gaelscoil delivers a huge sense of achievement and confidence at the end of it in most cases. The child and their families have shown courage and risk in a sense and this will pay off.

Imo getting mixed up with placenames etc is not that big a deal... plenty of foreign people who live in Ireland are much worse off in that respect but dont necessarily complain about it, just adapt and relearn. We all have to keep learning as adults ....I often have difficulty with computer terminology and find it confusing at the best of times but I'm not giving out, I just work out what it means either by asking somebody, looking it up or through trial and error.

I did not go to a Gaelscoil at any stage but I did work in one for a year so I'm basing my info on this experience. I did a degree in Irish and am now teaching it so I have a lot of contact with people who have been educated through Irish.

As for you having to give extra time to 'compensate'. I don't see the problem with this. Parents should always in my opinion, be as involved as possible in their children's education. When parents show an active interest in their children's education, it shows always show. However, that applies to Irish and English speaking schools. Perhaps, this is the reason why children in Gaelscoileanna generally do well out of the system.....because parents who send their children to these schools have a genuine interest in their children's education and have put huge thought into where to send them. It's not actually just an 'Irish' thing.

My experience of school was a good one but I feel the support and encouragement that was nurtured in me through my parents was the number 1 step in a number of steps, as such, to benefitting from education.

OP you obviously are one of these parents, so I would imagine no matter where you send your child they will do well. But I felt a lot of posters here were being unnecessarily negative earlier on and thats why I tried to bring the positives in. Statements such as its easier to make friends in English speaking schools is just wrong!

Anyhow I wish you well, I know its a scary decision to make:)

An Bradán Feasa

anxie wrote: »

It is disapointing that the conversation here is so polar and non discussive. An Bradán Feasa seems to snap at any negative comment posted (no offensive meant Bradán).

No offense taken.
I wasn't snapping, I was just asking what his post was based on because it seemed to be one of those "98% of statistics are made up" posts. If you re-read bcdillon's post you'll see what I mean.

Anyway I would recommend a Gaelscoil. I would especially recommend one that has total immersion for the first few years (no English taught).

More info here: www.rogha.org

buzzybee

I'll start off my piece saying that i'm from a gaeltacht area and was brought up with Gaeilge as my main language. I attended a gaelscoil but my parents chose to send be to an english speaking secondary school for various reasons.

Both my brothers were in the same situation as I and neither of them had any difficulties in secondary school, occasionally there may have been some times when i would have had to have asked a question or two about some words but plenty of others did too, and they would have attended english speaking primary schools.

I myself am now a teacher, and i am teaching in a gaelscoil in dublin, having taught in both types of primary school, i would say that there is massive difference between the attitudes of teachers towards the language, as a previous poster mentioned teachers who teach in gaelscoils are choosing it because they want to teach and promote the language in a fun way and enthusiastic way.

I may be biased but when the time comes for me to choose where my children will attend school it will be a gaelscoil because i have a passion for the language and my children to grow up with the same amount of love and respect for the language as i do.

-Els-

I didn't go to a Gaelscoil, but I'm in the institue, and a lot of my friends came from gealscoils.
Now I have good irish, always enjoyed the subject. My friends who went to Galescoils are fluent in Irish and could talk about the theory of relativity in Irish, but most have them have atrocious spelling and grammar. I get the same grades as them, even though my Irish isn't half as good.

Also they are all seriously at a disadvantage in science, maths, history and geography, particularly biology as they must learn all the terms in irish, so its almost like learning twice as much. I would also imagine that people form gaelscoils who go on to do science courses at 3rd level will be at a disadvantage as they wont know what the hell everyones talking about. For example in chemistry my friend had to learn all of the words for equipment etc... There were lots more she didn't know- lots of elements i think.

buzzybee

A lot of people seem to be forgetting that the op asked for peoples opinions on gaelscoils not gaelcholáistes, there is a difference, just because you send your child to a gaelscoil does not mean they have to attend a gaelcholaiste, also there does not seem to be that many around so i'm sure a large majority of students attending gaelscoils will than move onto a english speaking secondary school.
I'm not aware of the statistics i'm just speaking from personal experience in our gaelsoil.

mrtayto

Thanks to all who gave their opinons-all very informative and I didn't realise how polarized a subject it is.......Anyway, Junior is now attending the local naíonra and is also enrolled in the local gaelscoil, so we shall see

Kirnsy

-Els- wrote: »

I didn't go to a Gaelscoil, but I'm in the institue, and a lot of my friends came from gealscoils.
Now I have good irish, always enjoyed the subject. My friends who went to Galescoils are fluent in Irish and could talk about the theory of relativity in Irish, but most have them have atrocious spelling and grammar. I get the same grades as them, even though my Irish isn't half as good.

Also they are all seriously at a disadvantage in science, maths, history and geography, particularly biology as they must learn all the terms in irish, so its almost like learning twice as much. I would also imagine that people form gaelscoils who go on to do science courses at 3rd level will be at a disadvantage as they wont know what the hell everyones talking about. For example in chemistry my friend had to learn all of the words for equipment etc... There were lots more she didn't know- lots of elements i think.

thats true that students who switch from Gaeilge to English midway through (secondary) schooling are at a disadvantage with the technical terms in different subjects.

however without being smart assed, im presuming the OP will want his children to finish in the same secondary school they started in, which means in a Gaelscoils' case extra points and a complete grasp of two languages.


i personally went to a gaelscoil from primary to secondary and loved it. the sense of identity and uniqueness among the staff and students was tremendous and the results spoke for themselves ( over 50% of year getting over 500 points!) Im now started college and agree that a degree of acclimatizing needs to be done getting used to terms that English speaking schools would be familiar with.(im doing business so its not that bad!).

but imo its worth it for the gra and grasp of a beautiful language. good luck OP with whichever you choose.

star-bright

I think research shows that while at the start children in Gaelscoils may have difficulty with english by the time they reach 6th class they are at the same level as their peers in english medium schools.
I can't see any great disadvantages to sending your child to a Gaelscoil, unless you wanted them to be in single sex education and I have only heard of mixed Gaelscoils at primary level anyway but I could be wrong.