Discussion on setting up of Irish Atheist association

lostexpectation

peeps over at atheist.ie have finally decided to make the leap to setting up a campaigning group the Irish Atheist Association

still working out the details, the format and the name but I presume its focus will be on assertive atheism and secular equality.

a real world meeting has been set for Sunday 30th November 4pm to 7pm.
Central Hotel
Exchequer St Dublin 2
( just off South Great Georges St. )

find out more here.
http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=19

Dades

Best of luck to them (us?)
We can promote the meeting here closer to the date.

Not too sure what they hope to offer/achieve over what the HAI already does.

ChocolateSauce

Will this likely be a more hardline organisation than the humanists?

lostexpectation

the HAI is for humanists.

they're very mainstream and polite, and desperate to plead that too have morals,and have them written down, i don't think atheist are too bothered about that, even an atheist group would be very varied it its opinions. the humanist want to able to sit across from politicians and lobby them and be all proper and respectful of their authority, they very useful there is a place for them in the debate to do that, i don't think the humains org is place for alot of athiests. (and they offer alternates to tradtional ceremonies)

Galvasean

I'll join, but only as long as out headquarters can be a giant dark tower.

Teutorix

what exactly would the point of such an organisation?

Dave!

hmmm, I don't like the way they described it on the forum... Doesn't sound like something I'd be too keen to be a part of. A more high profile presence would be good though.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

the HAI is for humanists.

they're very mainstream and polite, and desperate to plead that too have morals,and have them written down, i don't think atheist are too bothered about that, even an atheist group would be very varied it its opinions. the humanist want to able to sit across from politicians and lobby them and be all proper and respectful of their authority, they very useful there is a place for them in the debate to do that, i don't think the humains org is place for alot of athiests. (and they offer alternates to tradtional ceremonies)

You've just explained what the new organisation is not, and conceded that atheists are varied in opinions.

So I'm still at a loss at to what they are going to actually do.

Beruthiel

Galvasean wrote: »

I'll join, but only as long as out headquarters can be a giant dark tower.

From looking at their forum, it is in the very early stages, doesn't look like they've even worked out what they would do as a group.
I would have thought an air tight agenda should be decided upon first before setting up meetings.

seamus

"Herding cats" comes to mind. If they can get through one meeting without havng ten people trying to force their will/opinion on the group, I'd be impressed

jill_valentine

lostexpectation wrote: »

the HAI is for humanists.

they're very mainstream and polite, and desperate to plead that too have morals,and have them written down, i don't think atheist are too bothered about that, even an atheist group would be very varied it its opinions. the humanist want to able to sit across from politicians and lobby them and be all proper and respectful of their authority, they very useful there is a place for them in the debate to do that, i don't think the humains org is place for alot of athiests. (and they offer alternates to tradtional ceremonies)

In fairness to them, the worst thing you can say about humanists is that they're too nice. Which is a complaint I'd love to hear more often, tbh.

Dades

seamus wrote: »

"Herding cats" comes to mind. If they can get through one meeting without havng ten people trying to force their will/opinion on the group, I'd be impressed

They'll be alright as long as someone remembers to bring the conch.

lostexpectation

i think the idea is yes, herding cats, we recognise this but were going to try anyway, personally i prefer it be named a secular society, which is the main aim of this anyway.

studiorat

Is it ok to go on Saturday evening if you're busy on Sunday?

Anyway if this has a political end to go after certain politically active Christians I'm all for it. Maybe we can take the bible out of Irish court rooms as well. If it's Sunday school for atheists no thanks...

Anyway it'll be good to see an internet legend in the flesh...

JimiTime

I can see it all now. 100 years down the line.

'Are you the atheist front of Ireland?'

'F*** off, we're the peoples atheist front. SPLITTERS'

studiorat

JimiTime wrote: »

I can see it all now. 100 years down the line.

'Are you the atheist front of Ireland?'

'F*** off, we're the peoples atheist front. SPLITTERS'

Tell that one to the lions Jesus boy...

If it keeps f8ckers like these away I'm all for it.

A secular state with equal rights for all beliefs. Religious education on a purely factual basis.

Galvasean

studiorat wrote: »

If it keeps f8ckers like these away I'm all for it.

Ha!

The party as a whole scored 0.06% of the total national vote

Losers.

studiorat

Galvasean wrote: »

Ha!

Losers.

Unfortunately I'm starting to think people like this may have some new, richer and more influential friends. Lads with airline companies and mobile phones and political discussion websites and the like...

Dan133269

Personally I'd join to try and make the country more secular.
Things like reference to the most holy trinity in the constitution, angelus before the main evening news, religious parafernalia in classrooms etc is laughable in the 21st century. Just give me my confirmation money and leave me turn my back on you when I grow up

The Mad Hatter

Teutorix wrote: »

what exactly would the point of such an organisation?

Interesting blog on Pharyngula on the subject: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/11/what_is_an_atheist_community.php

Tomk1

Look at this video christian voice censors Waterstones,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDp0lNDZukM

If chrislams can get away with this there should be a group to defend and act as a voice for the media. If they can protest we can anti-protest by supporting such people.

sink

I can see the benefit of an Irish organisation promoting secularism in the Irish constitution and all other facets of the state, however I don't think it need necessarily be atheist specific. Secular theists would be able to contribute a lot towards our common goals and any organisation with such aims should include them.

Zamboni

lostexpectation wrote: »

peeps over at atheist.ie have finally decided to make the leap to setting up a campaigning group the Irish Atheist Association

still working out the details, the format and the name but I presume its focus will be on assertive atheism and secular equality.

a real world meeting has been set for Sunday 30th November 4pm to 7pm.
Central Hotel
Exchequer St Dublin 2
( just off South Great Georges St. )

find out more here.
http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=19

I will definately check it out and see what the craic is.
There are far too many threads with tons of posts on the subject on atheist.ie for me to read through , could you give us the low down on proposed formation, structure and governance?

To be more specific, I would only want to be a member if it is incorporated as a limited company with no share capital on a non-profit basis with a clearly laid out constitution describing the processes of election and removal of directors and committees.

If there is going to be an association it must be transparent, democratic and legit. Otherwise it will give the lot of us a worse name than we already have ;-)

lostexpectation

Zamboni wrote: »

I will definately check it out and see what the craic is.
There are far too many threads with tons of posts on the subject on atheist.ie for me to read through , could you give us the low down on proposed formation, structure and governance?

To be more specific, I would only want to be a member if it is incorporated as a limited company with no share capital on a non-profit basis with a clearly laid out constitution describing the processes of election and removal of directors and committees.

If there is going to be an association it must be transparent, democratic and legit. Otherwise it will give the lot of us a worse name than we already have ;-)

click through to aims and agenda, constitution threads...

well it will be non-profit association ( limited or by insurance) or a type of friendly society, it won't be limted company that too complicated for start up org, audits and lawyers, fees and stuff, there plenty of small association set up without that. we have worries about money but setting up company isn't justified

the humanist associaztion wasn't company for years for eg

we have some sample constitutions which will be discussed at the first meeting, the usual stuff, it be hard to know how difficult decisions will be made by vote or what seeing as there is a internet element to it, can't have only dublin people decide everything.

its all a bit up in the air till it happens

Zamboni

lostexpectation wrote: »

well it will be non-profit association (limited or by insurance) or a type of friendly society, it won't be limted company that too complicated for start up org, audits and lawyers, fees and stuff, there plenty of small association set up without that. we have worries about money but setting up company isn't justified

Thanks for the reply LE.
It is an admirable goal but the reason I mention the formation of a limited company is to ensure the safety of the members. If for whatever reason the Association was brought into litigation the members are not protected and liable.
The necessity to file accounts on a yearly basis with the CRO would be a positive step as it makes the committe/directors/treasurer answerable from a legal and financial standpoint.
My concern is that if 300 people or whatever, give 25 euro each thats a nice few bob and there has to be safeguards in place that the Association and those in its leadership must be resonsible.
:pac: We wouldn't want the new committee taking all the membership and going on a 'research' trip to Barbados!

For example, take Athiest.ie which has a donate button. Where does the money go? Into someone pocket or are there transparent accounts that document that the donations are spent on legitmate website costs/promotion.
I don't mean to be a nay sayer, but its best to get these things right from the outset

lostexpectation

go ask on atheist.ie, yes we're well aware of the liabilities issue(see my above post) but the collective brain power and experience of the members of atheist.ie don't think a limited company is justified, at the moment its all on the good grace of catherder, (personally) i think 25e is too much, but none of that money will go in until the system is set up, , perhaps you can look into limited liability or insurance in a less then-a-company organisation to get definitive answer of whether its possible or not. as i siad i think for the moment the money and liability can be managed as an association

EamonnKeane

seamus wrote: »

"Herding cats" comes to mind. If they can get through one meeting without havng ten people trying to force their will/opinion on the group, I'd be impressed

That's what people said about The 13 Apostles' Movement For A Better Judea. Then that one guy just took over everything.

Rev Hellfire

While I suppose its commendable and all that jazz setting up an organisation to further the secular agenda in Ireland.

tbh I can't help but wondering would the energies put into this endeavour not be better used supporting the existing Humanist Association(s) ?

The truth is most people don't give a doss about a secular state and its much easier to ignore multiple small lobby groups as opposed to a larger single one once the initial novelty factor wears off.

Tim Robbins

jill_valentine wrote: »

In fairness to them, the worst thing you can say about humanists is that they're too nice. Which is a complaint I'd love to hear more often, tbh.

I can't see what this will achieve bar a forum for atheists to rant. The Humanists generally are a nice bunch. The magazine has plenty of anti - religious letters and articles. Some of which are quite hardcore. If they're not hardcore enough for this new grouping, I'll definetly be counting myself out of it as I can't see what an angry atheist club will achieve.

They won't achieve anything politically. The HAI are a skilled and able group. They are well tuned into how the democratic process and legislation works. The problem is they don't have enough numbers to give themselves gravitas.

jill_valentine

Humanism is not the same as atheism. Stop assuming atheists and humanists are the same. If I wanted to join a humanist organisation, I would join a humanist organisation. But that's a separate conversation.

Dades

jill_valentine wrote: »

Humanism is not the same as atheism. Stop assuming atheists and humanists are the same. If I wanted to join a humanist organisation, I would join a humanist organisation. But that's a separate conversation.

Comparisons to the HAI work in their favour, imo. And apt considering their as yet unstated "aims" are likely to be the exact same.

If we were to get technical about definitions, the whole concept of an atheist organisation is unsound.

Tim Robbins

jill_valentine wrote: »

Humanism is not the same as atheism. Stop assuming atheists and humanists are the same. If I wanted to join a humanist organisation, I would join a humanist organisation. But that's a separate conversation.

Ok. Let's have a look at the differences then.
The most objective definition for humanism or something that defines it objectively would be the Amsterdam declaration which all humanist organisations including the HAI subscribe to:
http://www.iheu.org/amsterdamdeclaration

In summary that states:
1. Humanism is ethical.
2. Humanism is rational.
3. Humanism supports democracy and human rights.
4. Humanism insists that personal liberty must be combined with social responsibility.
5. Humanism is a response to the widespread demand for an alternative to dogmatic religion.
6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination.
7. Humanism is a lifestance aiming at the maximum possible fulfilment through the cultivation of ethical and creative living

So humanism is atheism / agnostism + an ethical outlook.

Which begs the question, what's the point of the atheist club?

Atheists with no interest in ethics but simply want to rant to each other?

lostexpectation

oh **** off tim robbins you know that's not true, as i said humanist are desperate to impress on people that they have ethics so the form a group to say it, atheist may also have ethics but don't think they need to written down or grouped. thus the atheist association will not have such declarations.

the humanist met with bertie and the cabinet and refuse to say what went on that's there problem.

i aksed them about the meeting with bertie, and they didn't say much but i didn't learn that they met the whole cabinet until i saw happened across a picture on their new site, a fatal lack of communication.

Dades

lostexpectation is taking a wee break to calm down.

Tim Robbins

lostexpectation wrote: »

oh **** off tim robbins you know that's not true,

What's not true?
If the Atheist club has an ethical outlook, then surely it has the same objective as the HAI. If not, what's its objective?

the humanist met with bertie and the cabinet and refuse to say what went on that's there problem.

They are not refusing. My understanding is that the process is ongoing.
If the process is still on going why should it be detailed to the level Jonny annoymous from the internet forum wants it to be. What then? Jonny annoymous will start giving out that this that and they other were not mentioned or were mentioned. Why should people who give up their freetime go out of their way for Jonny annoymous when Jonny annoymous is too lazy and too scaby to help out constructively.

If you really want more detailed information, pop along to their monthly meetings and ask. Or join the HAI. I know for a fact they are short on members and volunteers who'll help publish and promote information for the humanist agenda.

The government won't meet anyone who can't even organise a submission document. The HAI document is well written and is quite clear.

Have a read of it.

http://irishhumanism.org/resources/HAIDialogueGov_070705.pdf

I am wondering will the atheist's club even make it that far. And if they do, will they not just wonder why didn't they just offer to help the HAI in the first place?

Less of the ranting and more constructive thinking I say...

jill_valentine

Lads, if you're all for the HAI then, by all means, cheerlead for the HAI. But it's a little irksome that any atheists who aren't in the HAI are apparently in dereliction of their atheist duty.

Lostexpectation might be a barely coherant rage monkey, but he touched on something there; we might not necessarily disagree with the HAI's agenda, but we don't necessarily groove with the group or it's attitude or any one of a bazillion other considerations either. If you want to make the HAI's case, by all means do so, but there's room for that elsewhere. It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.

Dades

jill_valentine wrote: »

It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.

A problem that could be nipped in the bud if someone could actually explain what the aims of the Irish Atheists are, and how they differ from the HAI.

And just because lostexpectation is currently unavailable to comment, doesn't give you right to refer to him in any manner you please. So mind what you say or you'll join him.

studiorat

My understanding was that the meeting was to set out an agenda for the group. The athiests that is...

Zillah

Yay, a schism! We're a religion now, right? You Orthodox HAI fools have lost your way! Only the IAA truly represents Irish Atheists.

studiorat

Oh yeah. The first internet religious council, defining the nature of the 3 nothings and when Easter isn't.

Dave!

jill_valentine wrote: »

a barely coherent rage monkey

LOL

Zillah

The Irish Atheists Association would like to announce that the following days should not be considered religious holidays for its adherents:

1st January
2nd January
3rd January...

Galvasean

IAA > HAI

Extremism FTW! :pac:

Tar.Aldarion

So thi swill be tax free? And you are inviting me to head it up? Interesting.

Zillah

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

So thi swill be tax free? And you are inviting me to head it up? Interesting.

Only if the picture you posted in The Nocturnal Forum is actually you, which it isn't, so no. If on the off chance it is then you can have absolutely anything you want.

Tar.Aldarion

^_^

That's me in my sig. Cartoon form of course, I'm not cards or a royal flush.

Tim Robbins

jill_valentine wrote: »

Lads, if you're all for the HAI then, by all means, cheerlead for the HAI. But it's a little irksome that any atheists who aren't in the HAI are apparently in dereliction of their atheist duty.

Lostexpectation might be a barely coherant rage monkey, but he touched on something there; we might not necessarily disagree with the HAI's agenda, but we don't necessarily groove with the group or it's attitude or any one of a bazillion other considerations either. If you want to make the HAI's case, by all means do so, but there's room for that elsewhere. It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.

How about you differentiate what another non - religious grouping aim to do that they HAI are not doing?

Zamboni

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The government won't meet anyone who can't even organise a submission document. The HAI document is well written and is quite clear.

Have a read of it.

http://irishhumanism.org/resources/HAIDialogueGov_070705.pdf

That is actually a very good document. Is there somewhere I can find out more about the response from Government on this submission? Or should I just have a look at the HAI website?

lostexpectation

as said the meeting will help decide the basics go to atheist.ie for further details.

i still think what you said in this and other the thread is highly contradictory and i don't believe you mean it, you just want to argue, or you don't seem to realise your being offensive by parroting the status quo of questioning non-religous morailty, the whole purpose of the hai is to claim to be ethical or claim to be trying to, its goes without saying for atheist, they simply don't think the church is the fountain of morality.

anyway im not a spokeman for the group just a regular on atheist.ie, its based there but I thought this atheist forum could contribute to it.

the reason hai doesn't succeed is because it doesn't communicate and it thinks it should play the governments game. that fine for them but i want to be involved in something else and will never be a humanist.

i don't think atheists assoc would meet the governement because we simple wouldn't believe that they are being treated with respect like the HAI claim they were. I think thats dishonest. It doesn't take any resources to answer simple questions. its the answers that matters not who asking them.

all the hai are getting is getting fobbed off, the process is going nowhere, even a long time committee member of the hai asked for an atheist group to be formed, a looser more assertive one to do what they can't, what more do you want.

this is something for people do to do their spare time they can waste if they want.

lostexpectation

the most imporatnt place is the schools but its hard to get involved in those school unless you have young children or are particularily involved in a community, thus you try to find a more generla way of doing with another community.

Rev Hellfire

lostexpectation wrote: »

i don't think atheists assoc would meet the governement because we simple wouldn't believe that they are being treated with respect like the HAI claim they were. I think thats dishonest. It doesn't take any resources to answer simple questions. its the answers that matters not who asking them.

That's an interesting approach to take. We want change but we're not prepared to meet the people who are responsible for implementing that change :rolleyes:
That said it makes the claims that the HAI sold out sound a bit hollow, this sounds more and more like a middle class knitting circle.