M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

OpinionN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422389#Comment_118422389

Yes, you're describing a bypass again there. Again, most people on this thread aren't against the concept of a bypass.

But the proposed road is an outer distributor, not a bypass. Its purpose is primarily to facilitate local city traffic to get to other parts of the city, according to the design studies. It will allow development of the city. It's not intended to be protected as a bypass.

By all means, join us in arguing that that concept sounds like lunacy.

marno21

The planned road is both a bypass and a ring road. It’s a motorway grade road from the outskirts of the city to the opposite outskirts of the city allowing traffic wanting to get from one end of the city to the other transit the city without entering the city. It also is quite close to the city and has lots of exits which makes it a ring road/distributor road.

It most definitely isn’t exclusively a bypass but it also most definitely functions as a bypass despite its many exits and proximity to the city.

O Ciuv probably didnt like the response from the Minister when he asked about the GCRR recently.

Note the highlighted section.

This piece of infrastructure has a lot of hoops to jump through yet and its progression is by no means assured

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-12-16/24/#pq_24

OpinionN

Well it will function as a bypass for a few years anyway, like the M50 and the N40. But they're not functioning very well as bypasses now. Precisely because of the volume of short-distance commuters. Which is a direct result of the many junctions.

And these are far from the only two cities worldwide where this mistake has been made.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422449#Comment_118422449

Interesting!!! Think I see the argument there and might agree. If you compare the distance between junctions to that of the M50 or other city bypasses, such as in Europe, the GCRR is certainly not a bypass.

I still say build it and get on with it. It's been too long. But you've definitely enlightened me there.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422508#Comment_118422508

It's status as a distributor road means it isnt a bypass really - you cant really be both.

It's a collector-distributor, not a bypass. It can be used to bypass the city, but it is not a bypass in the same way the M50 is not a bypass, its a ring road/distributor, that some people use to bypass.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422541#Comment_118422541

I use the M50 regularly and the N40 even more regularly as bypasses and they’ve function pretty well as bypasses whenever I’ve used them. They get busy with commuter traffic but their primary function is to allow traffic to bypass the city streets. In that regard they do

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422532#Comment_118422532

So a review of the completed An Bord Pleanala review, which was a review of the latest application for the project, which had to be reviewed and re-reviewed for decades to even get to this point. Fair play to all the naysayers on this thread trying to pretend Galway can function into the future in its current form, they're nothing if not determined to drag Galway down into the dustbin kicking and screaming if they have to. They'll get 'climate doctors' out writing rubbish, they'll try the emissions route, heck they'll even pretend it's not 'technically a bypass' to block its development.

Hildegarde Naughton v Eamon Ryan in the Department of Transport will get interesting in relation to this - how serious a contender Hildegarde is in the future of Fine Gael will determine whether or not this goes ahead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422920#Comment_118422920

Hildegarde Naughton v Eamon Ryan in the Department of Transport will get interesting in relation to this - how serious a contender Hildegarde is in the future of Fine Gael will determine whether or not this goes ahead.

I'm not sure you understand who works for who in the Dept of Transport

Ryan is the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Minister for Transport

Hildegarde is a junior minister only, specifically Minister of State with responsibility for International and Road Transport and Logistics, Minister of State with responsibility for Postal Policy and Eircodes

They work together, sure, but at the end of the day he is the Minister over Environment & Transport, either of which portfolio could still see this project canned (here's hoping)

Seth Brundle

Fair play to all the naysayers on this thread trying to pretend Galway can function into the future in its current form, they're nothing if not determined to drag Galway down into the dustbin kicking and screaming if they have to. They'll get 'climate doctors' out writing rubbish, they'll try the emissions route, heck they'll even pretend it's not 'technically a bypass' to block its development.

I don't think anyone here has proposed leaving Galway in its current form!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423053#Comment_118423053

Careful now ;)

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422956#Comment_118422956

Ya sure, look if you try and block it hard enough, you just might succeed in destroying Galway as a city, its future, its job prospects, the poor people trying to access UHG from all over Connacht, and any other ‘alternative’ idea that there might be because that too will be blocked in a similar fashion for years through all sorts of hearings, courts, etc. Be careful what you wish for.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424066#Comment_118424066

Did someone buy you a copy of Mastering Hypebole for Christmas?

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424127#Comment_118424127

I’ve seen quite a bit of hyperbole on this thread about the road - all of it completely illogical and preventing the development of Galway City Centre with bus and bike lanes and preparing the outskirts of the City for the 21st Century.

brianc89

I have to admit, after a back and forth I had yesterday, I fully see and agree with the issues raised here in relation to induced demand. I hadn't realized the road is being built as a distributor road, it is not a bypass. There are far too many junctions to make this a bypass. This road will facilitate more people commuting by car.

I still say built it. It's been too long. Enhancements can be made in future to improve traffic (if / when needed), similar to the N11 / M11 which have recently been proposed. The proposed changes on the N11 are specifically removing its use as a distributor road.

20years to get to this point in Galway and it's the wrong design. What a joke. But we're here now, can we just get on with it and built it? Don't try and stop it at this stage.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424066#Comment_118424066

If this project doesn't progress to construction, it will be due to fatal design flaws relating to cost and/or environment. If it fails, that will be on those who designed the project, nobody else. You really need to drop the victim complex, the real reason for the traffic problems around Galway is the abysmal planning policies which have been followed for the last century, that came from Galway itself. Housing policy has been based around sprawling suburbs with no public/active transport plus one off houses literally everywhere, large employment areas were created away from residential areas on the basis that everyone would drive to work and the undermining of the dual carriageway around the city was actively promoted. You can expect everyone to pay any financial and environmental price to fix Galways self-made problems but it's a bit much to feel agrieved if they don't.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425134#Comment_118425134

An Bord Pleanala have granted this permission, there is no issue with the design. That’s a moot point. What I’m surprised at is the amount of posters who actively want to destroy Galway into the future, many of whom clearly don’t live there.

Sam Russell

ABP passed the design presented to them. They did not consider other designs.

The posters who are against the current plan are actually interested in saving Galway from yet another folly. It will be a decade before this bypass/ring road is built and opened.

Meanwhile the M17 is easing the commute of those living in East Galway. Oh wait, the Coolagh roundabout is blocked every morning and evening. Well that saved them time to get to it at least, even if they got delayed there.

What Galway needs is better public transport, and easier and safer cycling routes, and a few bridges across the Corrib. I would be in favour of free public transport, or at least nearly free PT. Couple this with P&R at the outskirts, and the Two Mile Ditch and Coolagh block ups in the morning will be alleviated the commute for many.

Being against the GRR is not the same as trying to stifle Galway - quite the reverse. I can remember all the roundabouts that were put in to relieve the traffic congestion, and that have since been removed to relieve the traffic congestion. A bit of traffic flow engineering would go a long way in easing the congestion rather than a silver bullet of a motorway ring road.

OpinionN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425126#Comment_118425126

Fair play for contributing in such an open and honest manner.

This road's design likely wouldn't even be as big a problem if it wasn't being built on its own, with no supporting measures. Many of the downsides of this proposed road can be worked against, as per the Galway Transport Strategy. They literally lay out the phases of development that should happen. If you can, google the Galway Transport Strategy, scroll down to the Executive Summary Report and check out page 91.

There, in a single image, it shows why people are bleating about the bus network, the park & rides, the demand management, etc. This road was never intended to be the only solution or even the foundation stone. It was intended as a piece of an overall system, and not even the first piece. So when you're saying "build it, and resolve the commuter problems", now you can also join us in saying "yes build a road but please get the bits of the Galway Transport Strategy that are needed done ASAP before it opens please!".

The mantra has been "we'll do them after this road, we need the road first". But that won't work. If you're struggling to take road space from X amount of current road users, you'll struggle more to take road space from X+Y amount of road users. There's unfortunately no alternative to the painful task of prioritising sustainable transport. This has fallen by the wayside in the effort to get the road built. And there you can hopefully see why many people here in the infrastructure forum are uncomfortable looking at this plan.

Anyway, thanks again for being so constructive in your replies.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425284#Comment_118425284

ABP don't approve €600m of taypayers money to be spent. Government does that in line with the Public Spending Code. There is every possibility that this project doesn't get that approval given the enormous cost, the lack of public/active transport benefits in the plan, national and international policy, carbon budgets, etc. Challenges to the ABP decision are almost guaranteed as well so that decision may not even make it to PSC assessment. The project may yet fall in its arse and if it does, it will be because of some peoples belief that facilitating people driving to work trumps all else.

OpinionN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422835#Comment_118422835

I would argue that a road you can't make progress on due to congestion won't be described as "functioning well".

The TII publication "NATIONAL ROADS NETWORK INDICATORS 2019" published in April 2020 describes "unstable flow" and "forced or breakdown flow" on both roads. The M50 is described as "stable", "free flow" or "reasonably free flow" for around 14 hours a day. The N40 was described as "forced or breakdown" flow twice daily for around 5 hours in total. In fairness, the N40 did appear to function pretty well for around 18 or 19 hours a day.

In the Galway context, if the new Ring Road is bumper to bumper for a few hours a day, I don't think people will describe it as functioning well either. Let's be fair about it! That's kind of what they have right now, I'd argue. If they're trying to bypass the city's congestion, but they end up stuck in city congestion, then it's not really doing what they'd have hoped for, I'd have said.

Most people who want a bypass, want to get to the other side of the city in a predictable, reasonable timeframe. So, being stuck in bumper to bumper traffic doesn't count. As I say, that's roughly what they have already.

veryangryman

If it makes time savings and capacity increases (as the M50 and N40 have), it's worth the investment. If you need to see why we need such roads, look at a day where they close the tunnel in Cork or the M50 due to major accident

Fair play to her, hope she goes ahead with it

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/green-party-chair-consulting-on-challenge-to-galway-ring-road-1.4769465?

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427715#Comment_118427715

She's buried her political career in Galway. No loss.

OpinionN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427141#Comment_118427141

The discussion wasn't road V no road though, the discussion was bypass V distributor. Both will see capacity increases, but the majority of people on this thread seem to want a bypass, which is explicitly not what they will be getting, because apparently (according to the design team) there's not enough demand for one.

By all means let's agree, "it's better than nothing for the people driving in Galway", but let's also agree that what's desperately needed in Galway is spending on all of the other stuff that will fix congestion. It doesn't need to be either/or, but the current plan is "this road first and then we can talk about sustainable transport". That won't work, unfortunately.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427715#Comment_118427715

I bet indeed that some barristers are advising Pauline O'Reilly that she has a case ...

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427715#Comment_118427715

Fair enough, sure the people of Galway deserve another few years of delays. Suitable punishment for not riding their bicycles to work/school/the shops/etc in the first place.

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427807#Comment_118427807

Ah Christ she's a bloody Senator. The people can't bury her. This stupid country. Saying that we dozey morons voted to keep that retirement home a few years back. Ugh.

Green Peter

Pauline was very poor on the radio, the green party really need to up it on their spokespersons. I've no doubt there's a slush fund to go the legal route.

Can’t say I’m surprised. I knew the greens would have a go at stopping it. I daresay they’ll go as far as camping in trees or other direct action to stop it, a half of a city & the undeveloped Connemara beyond at stake to them. It’s their greatest chance at forced rewilding. Or rather, keeping wild.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421621#Comment_118421621

Sources lad, sources. No sense saying “many people have said…” like a MAGAist. (*cough* “…many people here in the infrastructure forum are uncomfortable…”). I never said it was disproven either. It’s a term like “pro-life/anti-abortion”. Used as a political crutch framing all growth as undesirable because it’s the wrong kind of growth.

I myself am under its boot, as someone who is leaving Galway because of the lack of space to grow a family, I am one of those undesired people as someone unable to restrict myself to the forms of transport demanded by the anti road political faction. I am already never coming home as by the time this is built I will be too old to start a family. Don’t bother with “but if we’re successful, there’ll be space for those who need the roads like you!”. You need less population full stop to get the current roads back to usable capacity. Without the ring road the greenest thing I can do for Galway is remove myself and any future family I grow from its severely limited resources and emigrate.