M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Not looking good for the ring road

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/124821/could-national-development-plan-mean-the-end-of-the-galway-city-ring-road?fbclid=IwAR0qZmS8heRcYOAQr6M8xOmscUSJKDWXsAsDMynyzqCI6udZtXox3BlIdSw

Aontachtoir

It will indeed be interesting to see what happens. If the bypass does sink on environmental grounds, then it will be time for the anti-car crowd to step up and take full responsibility for solving Galway's problems. With the Greens in government, they can no longer claim that they didn't have official support, that their hands were tied, or that they didn't get the resources they needed. This is their shot.

If the bypass is indeed blocked, Galway instantly becomes the place for environmentalists to prove their proposed solutions work in the real world. Without building another centimetre of road, can more buses and the like deliver a reduction in traffic AND average journey times for people in Galway, even as the city grows and people continue to move into rural areas in search of affordable housing? Or will traffic continue to worsen, or the time spent commuting continue to lengthen?

If they can deliver on both counts, then public transport definitely wins. However, if either traffic or journey times continue to increase for the average Galwegian in this scenario, then the idea that these modern problems can be solved by public transport alone will be clearly disproven.

Looking forward to the outcome either way, and boy am I glad that I live far, far away from Galway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996270#Comment_117996270

If the bypass is indeed blocked, Galway instantly becomes the place for environmentalists to prove their proposed solutions work in the real world.

I understand what you are saying however the solutions (permeability, protected bike lanes & junctions, bus lanes, reduced parking, park n strides etc) have all been proven to work time and again all over the world.

Something else that's also been proven all over the world is that building more roads has never, ever fixed congestion, its only made it worse.

Also, can you give it a rest with the "anti-car" crap.

Sam Russell

Whether the ring road goes ahead or not, it will be at least a decade away before it opens. It will also have a negative affect on traffic during construction, whatever attempts to use public transport, cycle and pedestrian measures to reduce congestion.

The PT system, traffic flows, cycle infrastructure could all be implemented within a few years. So get on with this aspect while the GRR crawls through the courts.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996270#Comment_117996270

This "without building another centimetre of road" thing is a load of crap. The choice is not, and never was, this Coonagh to Barna commuter highway or not another centimetre of road. There is a wide spectrum of other possibilities in between, despite certain people's attempts to present the current proposal as the only option (in the misguided belief that putting all the eggs in this bypass would somehow make it more likely to happen).

It seems to me that the process was entered into with a full end to end bypass as the predetermined solution and everything was made to fit around that. In an alternative world, a new bridge with necessary road connections, plus an integrated public transport plan, could have been pursued but this wasn't enough for some.

Like I said before, certain people seem to be getting their excuses in early here and deflecting the blame elsewhere. If the current process fails, the people who promoted this solution have to own it, not anybody else.

Bobeagleburger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995796#Comment_117995796

I can't see it happening tbh.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996667#Comment_117996667

Me neither, its time has passed. Perhaps congestion charges? Pedestrianisation of the city centre too.

Sam Russell

Anyone who has visited Oxford in the UK and tried to drive into the centre and then find parking will testify - it is a fool's errand. There is nearly no parking, and what there is is woefully expensive, and the parking meters only take pound coins so you have to overpay. There is no through way. But there is free park and ride on every road into Oxford - handily situated on the bypass.

That would be worth copying in Galway.

Make PT free is another approach that could be tried. No-one can argue with that. Don't spend €600 million on a bypass - spend a few million Euro a year on free buses (and hopefully a Luas).

Lots of time to try a few solutions before committing to the GRR.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996850#Comment_117996850

I'm not sure about free but say 2 euro for all routes in the city?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996892#Comment_117996892

Isn't that what they currently cost if you are using a leap card anyway?

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996633#Comment_117996633

That's odd, because a select group in this thread has told me over and over that we don't need to build any more roads, we just need to take cars off them. Hence my comment about not one centimetre of road. I'm not entirely sure whether you are referring to me when you say "certain people", but I have been clear at every point that I support both more investment in roads and public transport, and it's honestly a bit tiring repeating that over and over.

If the ring road is not built in the end, and you believe that is the fault of its supporters rather than of the people who sought to block it at every opportunity, does that mean any traffic or journey time increases associated with the public transport solution (including any failure to get a PT-only attempt through planning because of an organised NIMBY campaign) will be the fault of environmentalists?

@[Deleted User] Ah, now. You've made statements multiple times in this thread and others which are explicitly anti-car, especially in the context of Galway. It's fine to believe that cars need to be removed from roads and should not play any significant role in future transport plans. But I don't see how you can reject the label of "anti-car" with those beliefs.

@samrussell I would think that Galway and Oxford have very different distributions of economic activity and inhabitation patterns, no? Oxford also has a...ring-road. So building the Galway bypass would be a needed part of an Oxford-style solution.

I guess my issue with the "ah sure, let's try a few half-solutions and see if that makes the problems go away" approach is that I can't think of any problem in this country's history that it has successfully managed, or where we have been able to avoid putting in place the key piece of infrastructure much later than it was needed and at far, far higher expense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997841#Comment_117997841

Just to clarify, I'm not anti-car. I owned one up until last year and still use GoCar when the need arises. I used to be 110% behind the GCRR, look at my earlier posts in this thread for evidence, but over the last few years I've educated myself on mobility, planning, sustainable travel and infrastructure so I've come around to acknowledge that no, the GCRR will not help Galway, in face it will doom Galway to keeping the car as king for the next 50 years.

I don't see how a ring road will solve any of Galways problems. Cars have had the run of Galway streets and roads for 100 years and all that has happened is the congestion keeps getting worse.

More of the same will just result in the same result as has been seen in cities and countries all over the world i.e. Induced Demand.

You're absolutely right that half solutions will not cut it.

The current GTS proposes a single spine of bus priority measures only, going from the clinic RAB in the East to the WDR in the west and even the WDR is not due for bus lanes in the current GTS. There also needs to be buses running at a sub 10 min frequency on all routes, starting very early and finishing very late. Additional bus routes are also required to fill in the gaps in the network.

As for walking and cycling measures, there's a few bits as part of the GTS, but really not enough which means the impact will be minimal. What is needed is a 100% commitment to permeability (see Millars Lane as a decent example) and priority at junctions for pedestrians and a FULL network of protected bike lanes including the junctions.

Park n rides are in the GTS merely as an afterthought when they should be at the forefront but done as Park n Strides, complete with permeability measures and secure facilities for the storage of more sustainable modes i.e. Bikes, scooters, cargo bikes and so on.

Lastly the Gluas, ah the Gluas. If Galway gets the ring road it will be after 2050 before there is any sign of this. If the GCRR gets quashed there's a chance we might have it before 2035 if they really commit to it.

So yeah, half solutions won't cut it, no argument there. Fully funded and comprehensive, linked solutions on the other hand, those will definitely have a significant impact.

SuperBowserWorld

Galway has a tiny population. One Garth Brooks concert worth of people. Simple, safe, cheap, regular bus service, park and ride, would be a good start. And build up, not out. Cheaper, good quality apartments.

Do that first, properly, and see how you get on.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998067#Comment_117998067

Stop thinking a much needed piece of infrastructure isn’t going to fix things. Galway’s last bridge across the Corrib built in the 1980s if I’m correct? That’s a shocking statistic for a so called City / main business hub of Connacht.

The anti car brigade on here will destroy Galway. Limerick will over take it in a matter of years. They’ll be able to implement effective public transport & cycle lanes as they’ve a tunnel bypass & will be able to build other pieces of infrastructure easily. Mayo are also well on the way of finishing the dual carriageway from outside Castlebar to Westport. It’s also full of greenways. This region will compete readily with Galway shortly and win on many occasions due to quality of life & traffic issues.

The new M17 has a Go bus now servicing Galway - Ballina. People here are delusional thinking it’s an either or situation between roads & PT.

Have the anti car crew here ever heard of electric cars? They’ll be in use in the future & will need a thing called roads. The better the roads, the more efficient the journey.

As for the nonsense that Galway is a ‘tiny’ City. Galway county has a population of nearly 260,000. Most of whom work in the City.

The Acute hospital being across the river is also a major problem & should have been serviced with an extra bridge / road / rail long long ago.

Be careful what you wish for…

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998136#Comment_117998136

I tried to delete my last line, but too late, you got me. Yes, you are right. It's a ring road, not the end of the world.

I'm thinking of the M50. N11, ... awful.

More roads = more cars = more sprawl, noise, pollution, longer commutes, road maintenance costs, longer schools runs, car dependency, less green spaces, less communities, less nature. it's a vicious circle.

Why is everyone driving so much ? A lot of office jobs can be done remotely.

All I'm saying is that there are other ways Galway needs to improve as a city. And I can't see it happening. I just see urban sprawl as we don't do safe, quality, dense urban living in this country.

What are the plans for Galway city and the county ? Dense livable European like city or Los Angeles. Is there a plan actually ???

SuperBowserWorld

Not anti road , just don't want Galway and the West of Ireland destroyed by poor urban planning.

hans aus dtschl

I'm not even against a road around Galways North, connecting East and West, I'm against a distributor road being billed as a bypass.

It's one or the other, but not both. I hear some reasonable arguments pointing towards the need for a bypass, I have not heard reasonable arguments for a(nother) distributor. Yet a distributor is what is being proposed. We know that this cannot work, so why continue?

KrisW1001

I’m pro-car, but I’m anti-traffic. I’ve always believed that a city where everyone is driving is a failed city, and spending close to a billion euro to incentivise people to continue this stupid situation is the worst kind of urban planning.

The money used for this could be better spent first by providing a modest bypass for the small amount of cross-Corrib traffic, and then the bulk of the funds would go towards fixing the causes of the traffic problems in Galway - no city the size of Galway should have that volume of commuter traffic. The alternatives to the N6 ring road are not about stopping people driving their cars, but about giving people a better option than driving their cars in and out of work. Even in a public transport utopia, there will always be a significant number of people who have to drive - it would be nice of the campaigners to publicly acknowledge this (they accept it privately, but it seems that suggesting that private cars have any purpose at all is taboo among the greener end of politics). The point of public transport investments is to keep the number who have to drive as low as possible, but the thousands of people who leave one population centre every morning and drive to the same employment centre at the same time should be on a bus, or a tram.

Aontachtoir

Edited my prior overly lengthy post. I guess we will have to wait and see how it all turns out in Galway.

Pete_Cavan

Not sure what you are complaining about, the bypass you want has been designed and has gone to ABP. Lets see if anything actually happens with it before suggesing it a "realistic approach".

I suspect it wont be built by the end of the decade and nothing else will be looked at because this has been considered the only show in town. It's just a shame for the people who will be sitting in Galway traffic for years to come.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003347#Comment_118003347

What about limiting cars into the city each week any odd or even numbers. One week only cars ending with even next week ending with odd?

KrisW1001

Athens tried that years ago to combat air pollution. Guess what? Instead of one reasonably modern car, people bought two older (more polluting) ones instead.

Our taxation system would work against it, but I could still imagine lots of two-car households where the city commuter uses one or other car each day.

... and if you have ANPR cameras on the entry roads to read plates to enforce this rule, you may as well just bite the bullet and bring in a congestion charge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016501#Comment_118016501

In cities where they have tried that, people simply made sure they had access to odd and even numbered cars.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019353#Comment_118019353

Many couldn't afford that.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020564#Comment_118020564

Indeed, a lot of the traffic reduction measures can turn out to be pretty classist in the end. Congestion charges are meaningless to rich people, while they're something to desperately avoid for others.

In terms of traffic reduction, any measure you implement should also include measures to alleviate this issue for poorer people. An increase in bike infrastructure is often the best and easiest(after all, the poorest in society are the least likeliest to own a car, never mind two), then increases in public transport.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016501#Comment_118016501

This is a bit of an off the wall suggestion that’s not even half grounded in reality. But so far off the course has the opposition to anything brigade taken Galway City - might as well give it a shot I guess. Maybe they should also try colour codes on cars, motorbikes & cycling bikes too? Blue Monday’s, Green Tuesdays snd so on. It’s not like there’s work to be done, business’s to be run and jobs to sustain or anything.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021419#Comment_118021419

Let me know when the English translation is due out: looks like a good read!

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021419#Comment_118021419

Not that 'off the wall' really, tried in some places with some success. See link below

saabsaab

https://swachhindia.ndtv.com/heres-cities-around-world-executed-odd-even-scheme-check-pollution-14625/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998293#Comment_117998293

I'm afraid you're 30 years too late: Galway is not a city by most standards, it's a sprawl of bad planning, narrow roads, congestion & distorted design in every respect. It's a very vibrant city etc etc but honestly, objectively, Galway is going nowhere but downhill in the years ahead. These reactive measures, no matter what actually happens be it a ring road or PT or a combination of both, won't be seen for years to come. Galway is one of the worst planned cities in Europe. Let's not just blame FFG for it: Galwegians want their semi detached house or to live in Headford/Athenry/Moycullen while pretending they're city dwellers. Galway is a chaotic mess now rivalling Dublin for traffic congestion, unreliable journey times & a bus service more akin to Kathmandu than a city in a western democracy. There needs to be a localised societal shift in mentality towards a European standard of urban living. That doesn't mean no cars, no ring road, all PT, all cycle lanes. Galway needs improvement in all of it, & the keystone is ending the farce of building endless housing estates & industrial parks stretching into Connemara in the west and beyond Athenry in the east. To be blunt, Galway City & Galway County Councils need to cop on and so do locals who expect/demand an unsustainable village-style housing strategy in a city.